Living Dead

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

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I'd keep the original cooldown for something like this.

Now, in my defense I wrote that post at 4:30 AM my time so I wasn't exactly lucid, so I wasn't really thinking about cooldown time. I probably meant to put 180s but we'll never know because I barely remember writing the post in the first place. That said...

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I would put this at a 3 minute at the very least, if not 210s--have to consider that Shadow Wall itself has a 180 second cooldown as well. That aside, I like the concept of this; it's a free and easy get out of a tankbuster free card that has its own set of advantages and disadvantages. It could be used to cheese things like Flash Gale ala Hallowed as well, come to think of it.

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The main benefit of fully ignoring a TB like Hallowed but without the crazy long cooldown is pretty big, there's also the fact that an MT DRK can just... Die and get full HP. Healers basically can ignore them and get a free bene. To me at least a perfectly timed bene at 180s for one specific job is perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

After all the QQ about holmgang thread still on the 1st page, there is no way a 10 second safety net window that combines holmgang and benediction on a 2 min CD is going through. If holmgang is "overpowered", holmgang with a free benediction attached and a 10 second window on 66% of the recast is batshit stupid broken. Why even have tankbusters anymore.

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I meant 180s (probably) when I wrote it. Also, and this might just be me, but saying 'something ignores tankbusters' isn't a legitimate reason to dislike something. Tankbusters are some of the easiest to manage parts of Savage fights so long as you have the free time before raid to look at a timeline and scribble down some notes. Holmgang has become a popular bug-bear for the OF and Reddit where people complain it somehow breaks fights... But... That's... Not... True... Holmgang in 8S allows your OT to not stack with you which is fine but with maximized Holmgang usage they only have to take one or two embraces. Their entire cooldown suites is instead used on wings of destruction which is just stupid given the fact that regardless of whether they're a DRK or a PLD they could easily manage the damage better. Healers don't have to heal a PLD with Sentinel+Sheltron as much as they need to heal a WAR that's gone down to 1 HP, particularly if there are follow up Ultimas or such. Having more HP after a tank buster is legitimately useful. Having two tanks stack when one is going to be healed up with AoE anyways is functionally indifferent to using holmgang and depending on your healers may actually be easier.

I can think of precious few examples where having Holmgang actually made a significant difference over doing it the intended way and that's the double lightning mechanic in Exdad because you couldn't for sure skip the last dualcast lightning and unless you had a WAR it was kinda annoying. That's the power of Holmgang. Avoid kinda annoying.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Those cons are inconsequential. Its not useless against multi hit attacks unless each hit could 1 shot you since you are at max health after it triggers. Lets say theres a 5 hit tank buster that could be survived via conventional mitigation (~50% or so mitigation to comfortably live. TBN+Wall. IB+Defiance+rampart, Vengence+ToB etc. This is a VERY hard hitting tank buster by conventional measurements requiring all this to live). 50% mitigation means you have 200% effective HP. So you would die on the 3rd hit, get fully healed and take the last 2 hits with 20% life. Holmgang would also survive this, at 1% life. Hallowed is hallowed. The only way this new holmgange+Bene combo is 'bad' is one specific scenario. Cheesing shared tank busters that have multiple hits. That is an EXTREMELY specific weakness and only applies to shared tank buster akh morns which only appear in 2 fights I can think of, one of which is level 50.

Holmgang at 6 seconds (not 7) generally takes the tank buster and the follow up auto attack, then requires a heal. You are proposing something that functions better requiring no heals (buster>100% HP>Auto>80ish% HP) on a 2 min timer. Look at every complaint about holmgang, then square it. Way past broken.

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Specific mechanics I was thinking of that work poorly for this are Neo Exdad's Delta Attack (If you're stacking enough magic resist to survive the fire + lightning you may as well be swapping), A12S TB, A7S TB (though in this case it would help with healing you I suppose if you didn't get grinded by the autos), those sorts of things. In current content there are few examples but in the past the devs have implemented Tank Busters that would make this immunity either useless (doing enough damage to kill you multiple times over) or forcing you to stack mitigation and immunities (which kinda negates the point of having an immunity, ignoring damage).

Having to pop mitigation along with an immunity is astonishingly bad because it means that you're taking mitigation away from parts of the fight that you can use it. Immunities by and large are designed so that you can move your mitigation away from a part of the fight that's high damage. That's why they're called immunities. Saying 'A multi hit TB wouldn't kill you if you used mitigation' is the same as saying 'this doesn't act as an immunity this is basically just a heal'. And if it's just a heal and you're still having to pop a lot of mitigation to deal with a mechanic then it's bad for that mechanic plain and simple.

What I'm saying is that if what gets people antsy about holmgang is the fact you have an option to not use cooldowns then the fact that this version of LD would still require you to use cooldowns means it's probably balanced right?

[QUOTE=DaulBan;4666514]snipQUOTE]

I did forget about Exdeath lightning. But in the history of the game, there are only a handful of tank busters that would 'beat' this immunity making the default "Immunity on a 2 min CD" and therefore absurdly powerful.

I wasn't talking about using CDs AND an immunity. That's utterly stupid. The example was of a multi hit tankbuster that you 'could' survive with CDs (because a tank buster has to be survivable...) is easily replaced by your proposed Holm-bene move. Even one powerful enough to barely survive throwing STRONG mitigation at it (50%+) would be easily taken point blank by yours, despite listing multi hit busters as a 'downside'. And do so better than holmgang. If a multi hit is powerful enough to eat 200% of your HP (including the overkill that triggered it so really OVER 200% HP), then traditional mitigation would require 3-4 CDs to survive comfortably and nothing actually hits THAT hard in this game as of now. The idea that regular (read not shared/weird thunder mechanic cheese) multi hit mega busters is a downside doesn't hold water when nothing strong enough to kill through this even exists.

The worst case scenario for yours is matching holm (surviving with very little HP after a multi hit buster). The best case scenario is the equivalent of holm+bene (survive and end 100% HP after ANY 1 hit buster, which is nearly all of them) on a 2 min timer. Which is ludicrous considering multi hit tank busters are pretty rare and have never been that strong to eat 2x HP bars. They are even less common once shelltron was introduced as it only takes 1 hit. The only downside is inability to cheese shared multi hit busters which is highly unusual/rare and oddly specific.

You made a holmgang that is WAY better than homgang, put it on a 2 min timer (by accident or not), and expected it to just be fine? Even at 3 it would set a new precedent for the most powerful defensive action in the game.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

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I'm not saying that the ability wouldn't be really good because you're right, for 99% of the high damage mechanics in the game it would work just fine. However, in the scenarios where it does not work it will be absolutely terrible. A12S Holy Scourge/Chastening Heat combo, Dualcast lightning, these might not be common but for DRK should they be a major part of a fight they would render my version of LD useless.We live in a world where Sheltron is on a 25s cooldown and mitigates 30% of any hit you take, and the single thing that stops it from being absolutely balls to the wall nuts is that A it might get eaten by an auto if the boss has an untelegraphed cleave (A9S, A12S, Last Kiss) and that even with Bulwark you can't be certain you're going to block 100% of the hits you could take from Akh Morn and similar attacks. On every single hit telegraphed tankbuster you get 30% free mitigation as a Paladin assuming you have gauge, which you should. Every 90s then you have 50% mitigation on a single hit from just Rampart/Sheltron with no party benefit, or 60% with reprisal. If you're using Sentinel every 180s you get 80% mitigation.

That of course isn't how mitigation works in the game, the real values a bit lower than that but you get this gist. If PLD can have ~80% mitigation every 180s with 2 CDs (one of those being sheltron) and a reprisal we're already at a frankly insane amount of mitigation. DRK is in a similar spot with DM and TBN where if you go full turtle on magic you can 30% mitigation from DADM and an additional 20% HP from TBN. It's a mana sink but there you go, another insane method of taking a TB that reduces your incoming damage astronomically.

We already live in a world where on-demand mitigation has never been higher but the job that has the most difficulty handling mechanics is DRK when everything is physical. At two minutes the ability is busted, sure, but for me personally 180s being a Holm+Bene instantly isn't too insane when we already have things like 80% mitigation PLD wandering around blithely. Is it OP? Sure, but there are a lot of mechanics in this game that are OP and given that Holmgang, as I said, doesn't break anything in the game, I doubt that a 180s Living Dead with my description would substantially change how the game works. Debuffs that apply on hit will still exist, tank busters will still be around, DRK would just have one of the best defensive kits in the game which would not hurt tank balance anyways.

If anyone thinks this version of LD is OP, they're right, but the concept of the magical block is already OP enough to make mitigation in this game kinda dumb. There's obviously a range on how long the cooldown can be up to 5 minutes. That said as far as I'm concerned the game is already in a state (and has been since block could handle magic damage) where the tanks already have a plethora of incredibly strong mitigation options regardless.

I don't understand why walking dead has to be so punishing for how long its cooldown is. It's not preventing damage like hallowed is and it technically may not last any longer either if you factor in the need for it to be cut short its full duration it actually has the potential to be shorter or slightly longer but we all know it will probably be shorter. The safety net living dead provides is moot even if its a planned usage other than letting healers know you dont need heals (yet), we use it right before we think we are going to die if its not planned. If DRK is to keep the chance of death then our invuln needs to be more rewarding or the first portion of living dead needs to be more useful than just a safety net. It needs to be more useful in a soloing situation that it is used as well. Hallowed and holm will prevent death in a soloing situation. Living dead will give you 10 more seconds to kill the mob before you die anyway (If I go down, I'm taking you with me? lol...)

One option is to make living dead compile damage received and unleash an AOE of it for a maximum of 20% the drks HP or something and to make walking dead reflect auto attack damage during its duration. Living dead still becomes useful in this scenario by doing damage even if walking doesn't proc.

Another option is to have living dead compile damage received before killing blow and heal the dark knight for that amount at the start of walking dead or at the end of living deads duration in the case of walking dead never procing. Walking dead's duration will have a form of drain spikes that heals the drk on attacks instead of receiving damage. It has the potential to lower healer burden and will make living dead useful in a scenario that walking dead never procs cause you still receive a heal at the end of it for all the damage you received.

Just throwing out ideas at this point.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Ill let you in on a secret. Pld using Shell(30%)+Sentinal(40%) gives the pld 172% effective HP. .

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1.0 - (1.0 * .3) = 0.7
0.7 - (0.7 * .4) = 0.42.

At 0.5, this is a 100% increase in effective health (Taking 50% less damage, means your current health value is effectively doubled).

Paladin using SHell + Sentinal is approximately 238% effective HP.

TBN + Wall

1.0 - (1 x .3) = 0.7. This is approximately 144% effective HP.
TBN is 20% more health.

1.44 + (1.44 x .2) = approximately 173% effective HP.

"Healing" tax

Assuming two tanks with 60k hp each.

At 238% EHP, the paladin has an effective total of 142,800
At 144% EHP, the Dark Knight has an effective total of 86,400 + 17,280 (shield)

Throwing a tank Buster that won't kill either, but still require healing: 80,000 raw damage.

Paladin EHP / HP: 62,800 / 26,386
Dark Knight EHP / HP: 23,680 / 16,444

If Magic Buster

Add approximately 16% to the Dark Knight totals for DM and another 44% if DA DM.

Also, due to the way multiplicative reductions work, even if it's the same 'total' (30 + 40, 20 + 20 + 20 + 10, 50 + 20, etc), the less chunks it comes in, the better it is. Adding up to 70% mitigation effects is less powerful than a singular 70% mitigation effect. This is why the Sentinel number seems to absurd. 40% is better than 30% + 10%, and almost better than 30% + 20%, and why Shelltron, with its ability to scale, dumpsters TBN in single hit Scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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Accidentally had a * instead of / in my spreadsheet. Threw off everything. Math is hard. Deleted.

The number of people who think that a WAR doesn't need the healer to intervene for a Holmgang is damn to high.
The number of people who think that the 10s safety cushion before LD procs is worthless is also damn to high.

I realize you did not quote me directly, but since I have made similar claims in the past I would like to express my opinion here.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The number of people who think that a WAR doesn't need the healer to intervene for a Holmgang is damn to high.

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Ok, lets be clear, a tank at 1 HP will need to be healed, which means healer intervention since no tank does self healing in a great way, my main point is the degree of healer intervention varies greatly depending on your strategy.

We have two choices for dealing with a tank at 1 HP that doesn’t involve killing them: continue to tank, swap or stop taking damage with tools like cover.

Option 1: continue actively tanking. Healing you up to survival range for auto's is probably a heal and an oGCD, if you continue tanking additional heals will be necessary, and depending on the mechanics may need to happen quickly. This is pretty normal healing requirement for a low HP tank who is actively tanking and likely mirrors Living Dead, healers will likely bring you close to 100% before not worrying about you.

Option 2, tank swap after invulning or stop taking damage through other means (like cover). If you tank swap you can probably lower your healing requirement to something like an oGCD and regen, depending on mechanics following after, the healing requirement may be reducible to a regen and fairy heals (12 to 15 seconds should be about half your HP without other healing).

This is what I mean when I say Holmgang doesn’t have a large healing requirement, there are a variety of ways to handle the requirement, half of them being fairly low stress (tank swap or get covered) and let regens and aoe healing do most of the work.

Contrast this with Living Dead. You must restore my total HP in 10 seconds or I will die. Tank swap, cover, other clever strategies do not get us around the healing requirement, heal a total of 66.5K HP or the tank dies. Taking a look at my healers average large GCD heal and oGCD heal, they are restoring around 20k HP on the high side without critting, which means two healers must coordinate 3 to 4 heals to satisfy the requirement and get the most of our my invuln, independent of what else is going on. Of course critting adds an additional variable which is my invuln can wear off early based on crit RNG, which adds yet another layer to this; but multihit tank busters are on the rare side meaning this is usually not something which is a frequent worry.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The number of people who think that the 10s safety cushion before LD procs is worthless is also damn to high.

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In terms of raids, I would say all invulns should be used as part of a strategy which healers know in advance. In that context, the 10 second cushion is important for dealing with timing, using the ability early mainly allows for you to have some freedom in timing. For example Neo ex death allowed you to invuln early to catch all three thunder tank busters if you used LD early enough.

Thats the benefit of the 10 second cushion, you can use your invuln up to 20(ish) seconds in advance to be able to invuln something else earlier than you would be able to with other tank invulns. In that respect, Living dead is the most flexible tank invuln in the game. However, and I might be wrong here, I think the last time this was useful was in Neo Ex Death.

As far as a safety net argument, this comes down to a good healer/bad healer argument. A good healer is likely to know the strategy and take advantage of the ability to not heal the tank before they invuln, a bad healer is likely to not take advantage of this ability.

If you Holmgang a tank buster at 66.5k HP or 1 HP or anywhere in between, it doesn’t matter, if you Hallowed a tank buster at 66.5k HP or at 1 HP, it does not matter. A good healer is going to capitalize on this regardless, so I see little value in the automatic proc. Yes, we can engineer a situation in which this has more value, but in general I don’t see this as an issue. Contrast this with a bad healer who will not take advantage of the safety net. Well in that case you have gained nothing, because the main advantage in this argument is for someone who does not capitalize on it. Tl;dr the safety net argument advantage doesn’t hold water, good healers already realize the safety net before any tank invuln exists in a strategic sense, bad healers don’t and don’t capitalize on it.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Snip 1: healer's intervention

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All of what you just said about swapping after a holmgang is completly dependant of the fight and assume that the WAR will take absolutly no damage in any way for an extended period of time. You also need good party coordination. These techniques are mostly moot in PF. Being able to pull it off and take advantage of it is actually the exception, not the rule.
Anyway, if you take the possibility of encounters where you don't need to heal your WAR after a Holmgang, I can do the same for cases where strong healing is required immediatly. In which case, Living Dead is, if not better, on par with Holmgang.

Also, it's extremely frequent when a WHM is in the team to use Benediction after a Holmgang/LD. If bene is used, it actually doesn't matter if the tank is a WAR or a DRK. In fact, it's easier to bene a DRK under LD than a WAR under Holmgang, as the timing window is way shorter for a WAR. More on that below.
And when it comes to AST, they might be forced to use more tools and GCD to heal a DRK (Essential Dignity + Synastry + Benefic II. Bonus points if Convalescence is used), but the effort required to heal both tanks doesn't varies that much in the end.

Still, my point remains relevant: healer intervention is usually required in both cases. And the difference in ressources needed to deal with a Holmgang or a Living Dead is actually not that big of a deal. At least, no way near as some people in this thread said.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Snip 2: 10 seconds cushion

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The automatic proc guarantees the full duration of the 10 seconds "1hp" state no matter what happens. This is not something you have with Holmgang, which usually means that Holmgang will be effective for something like 5 or 4 seconds only. Or even less if the WAR has a tendency of pressing the button too early.
Living Dead is much more stable and the outcome will always be predictable, meaning that the healer have full control on its timings. When it comes to Holmgang, that's not the case. The WAR plays a big role in how much time they'll give to their healers.

I like the fact that you took Neo Exdeath as an example, it's probably one of the lastest end game content where this difference is the most obvious. With Holmgang, your timing needs to be perfect. Even more so during the delta followed by a random laser that you need to avoid, which can be problematic because of the root. The chance for mistakes is quite high. With Living Dead, the chance of messing up is almost zero thanks to that safety cushion.

If suddendly Living Dead didn't had that automatic proc thingy, it's ease of use would drastically drop, both for the DRK who would now have to time it right, and the healers who would have less time to heal.
It's not only about being able to capitalize on LD, it's about how stable, convenient and predictable it makes this ability. Holmgang is pretty much the complete opposite in that regards, not even talking about the root.

Saying that it's not valuable is absurd. Reducing the possibilities for mistakes is something highly valuable in end game raid environment. The 10s safety cushion provides exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

All of what you just said about swapping after a holmgang is completly dependant of the fight and assume that the WAR will take absolutly no damage in any way for an extended period of time.

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Ok, I’m not sure what you are trying to refute as:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Option 2, tank swap after invulning or stop taking damage through other means (like cover). If you tank swap you can probably lower your healing requirement to something like an oGCD and regen, depending on mechanics following after, the healing requirement may be reducible to a regen and fairy heals (12 to 15 seconds should be about half your HP without other healing).

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I admit this right in my analysis.

oGCD heal and regen is likely enough to get you through most damage, and works in 3 out of 4 turns this tier. Yes, it takes some coordination, but in doing content with a cotank and healers who you know and play with, which is also common, this works. And pairing this with cover is a way to force this to happen, which works in 2 of the 4 turns. The main point here is that Living Dead doesn’t offer even similar benefits of strategy because of its strict pass fail mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You also need good party coordination. These techniques are mostly moot in PF. Being able to pull it off and take advantage of it is actually the exception, not the rule.
Anyway, if you take the possibility of encounters where you don't need to heal your WAR after a Holmgang, I can do the same for cases where strong healing is required immediatly. In which case, Living Dead is, if not better, on par with Holmgang.

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I also conceeded this point, if you are going to continue tanking after homgang then you will likely have the same healing requirement as Living Dead. I’m not sure what you are trying to refute as I admitted this right in my analysis. Also, sure to use things effectively it requires skill. Thats not an argument against the skill, it just means it has a higher skill ceiling for using even more effectively. And of course you can engineer situations which having 10 seconds of invuln is better than having 6. We haven’t seen nearly as much requiring long invulns, but they do come in handy in o8s.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Also, it's extremely frequent when a WHM is in the team to use Benediction after a Holmgang/LD. If bene is used, it actually doesn't matter if the tank is a WAR or a DRK. In fact, it's easier to bene a DRK under LD than a WAR under Holmgang, as the timing window is way shorter for a WAR. More on that below.
And when it comes to AST, they might be forced to use more tools and GCD to heal a DRK (Essential Dignity + Synastry + Benefic II. Bonus points if Convalescence is used), but the effort required to heal both tanks doesn't varies that much in the end.

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I wouldn’t say extremely frequent, but given there are two healer spaces and 3 healers more parties have a whm than don’t I suppose. I really don’t think the window matters when it comes to benediction as far as who is “easier” to press a 100% heal on.

As far as the Ast heal plan you have you are still short about 20k without conva and 8k with conva on the dark knight baring a crit, in which case the warrior will survive this argument, if there is time for one more heal the dark knight will as well, but if you waited until 3 seconds were left on living dead the dark knight is dead in this example. Since in that example you need two GCD heals still from 1 healer that means you need to have started healing 5 seconds in advance of the 9 second cutoff for the debuff so we are down to 4 seconds of no healer intervention. A second healer can make it so you start this process later of course.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Still, my point remains relevant: healer intervention is usually required in both cases. And the difference in ressources needed to deal with a Holmgang or a Living Dead is actually not that big of a deal. At least, no way near as some people in this thread said.

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I’m not sure when I disagreed with this.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Ok, lets be clear, a tank at 1 HP will need to be healed, which means healer intervention since no tank does self healing in a great way, my main point is the degree of healer intervention varies greatly depending on your strategy.

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My point was that Holmgang has a variety of way in which you can pass the mechanic, and you have freedom of choice and strategy depending on what is happening. You don’t have that on dark knight. You must pass the healing requirement within the prescribed time or the dark knight dies.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The automatic proc guarantees the full duration of the 10 seconds "1hp" state no matter what happens.

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Using your own ast plan for healing: Essential (crit) => synergy=> Benefict 2 (crit) debuff wears off. This will avoid the full ten seconds. The full duration isn’t set in stone.

Another example: plan to die to accumulated damage, pop living so walking is up for tank buster, healer panics sends heals, walking dead doesn’t trigger, Living Dead wears off, tank buster one shots us. Did the plan work? Sure it wasn’t your fault and it would have worked, but its no longer up to you once you put the plan in motion. Again, the full duration isn’t set in stone.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

This is not something you have with Holmgang, which usually means that Holmgang will be effective for something like 5 or 4 seconds only. Or even less if the WAR has a tendency of pressing the button too early.

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Popping buttons too early is in the war’s power to change as well. That is a key difference. And as I pointed out, if we have one healer dealing with healing off the walking dead debuff we also have close to the same amount of time to heal up the dark knight, using two healers can get closer to the max time. Regardless 90% of tank busters only need it to work for 1 hit. Yes, be mindful of when heals must go out, but thats like a mantra that should be engraved on every healing crystal.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Living Dead is much more stable and the outcome will always be predictable, meaning that the healer have full control on its timings. When it comes to Holmgang, that's not the case. The WAR plays a big role in how much time they'll give to their healers.

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See above. It is as predictable as anything involving other people is, its not nearly as stable as you are making it out to be. You are overstating the reliability of Living Dead, to try and fight those overstating the healing requirement around holmgang. Having progressed through 4 tiers with 9 healers on dark knight I have seen many ways this skill can go wrong, even when people understand the skill and the strategy. Every invuln is susceptible to human error.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I like the fact that you took Neo Exdeath as an example, it's probably one of the lastest end game content where this difference is the most obvious. With Holmgang, your timing needs to be perfect. Even more so during the delta followed by a random laser that you need to avoid, which can be problematic because of the root. The chance for mistakes is quite high. With Living Dead, the chance of messing up is almost zero thanks to that safety cushion.

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Living dead also has issues with thunder since healers may also need to dodge, which brings us into the early movement/removing walking dead debuff from pre-healing the debuff off. It was particularly bad for the second thunder buster. And if you had to time your LD for the thunder then you needed to pop it early on the first one, and if you popped it too early you would need to die to start the walking debuff and keep your invuln, which was possible provided you were not getting healed during that time. Be slightly late in use and it wasn't up when you needed it. Again, all skills have human error.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If suddendly Living Dead didn't had that automatic proc thingy, it's ease of use would drastically drop, both for the DRK who would now have to time it right, and the healers who would have less time to heal.
It's not only about being able to capitalize on LD, it's about how stable, convenient and predictable it makes this ability. Holmgang is pretty much the complete opposite in that regards, not even talking about the root.

Saying that it's not valuable is absurd. Reducing the possibilities for mistakes is something highly valuable in end game raid environment. The 10s safety cushion provides exactly that.

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As I’ve pointed out, there are still errors that can happen, the cushion is not a panacea. Your points mainly lay on human error factors, the point is human error still impacts living dead. Again, most of the cushion value is in time management. And we are drastically overstating the difficulty of popping a cooldown at the last second to get additional benefits. For example holding Hallowed to catch two busters in o8s by popping it later in the cast, it is not particularly difficult.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The number of people who think that a WAR doesn't need the healer to intervene for a Holmgang is damn to high.

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There isn't smoke without fire. If you'll recall, WAR does have a certain reputation for both no healer and solo content clears.

It's not really a question of healer intervention. You'll need healer support after Hallowed wears off as well. What matters is the healing threshold. Holmgang's healing threshold is fight-specific. If you need to be above 50k HP for the next attack, you need that much healing. If there's no further outgoing damage on you for the next 10 seconds, you don't need to be healed for that time. In some situations, the healing threshold can be met by the tank themselves. In others, they need focused healing.

Living Dead's threshold is always your total HP. This requirement can never, ever be reached by the tank themselves, and gets progressively higher with every gear level. There is no visual guidance for your healers on how much more healing you require to hit this threshold. The effective duration is entirely determined by your healers. The one healer ability that is most suited to maximise the effective duration, Benediction, is completely out of phase with the ability (180s recast vs. 300s recast). It feels bad for everyone involved.

I don't want a shorter recast. I don't want a more powerful effect. I want to be able to use it with a consistent duration of effect (i.e. a full 10 seconds, not a variable 2-9 seconds), and address any bare minimum instant kill requirements myself. Everything else is in the hands of the healer.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The number of people who think that the 10s safety cushion before LD procs is worthless is also damn to high.

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It's not worthless. It has a very specific value. When timed correctly, it shortens the effective recast of Living Dead by 9 seconds, so that you have it up at 291 seconds instead of 300.

The reason why Chrono specifically referenced Delta Attack is because the first and second Deltas are spaced somewhere around 297 seconds apart. So if you don't activate Living Dead early on the first Delta, you won't have it back up in time for the second one. This is no different from mistiming Holmgang.

It's also a bit of a niche case for when the effective recast makes a performance difference. For example, even if you precisely activate LD early enough before the first UE on O8S, you're still going to end up about 5 seconds short of being able to use it on the fourth UE. It requires a very particular set of circumstances.

Either way, it doesn't justify the two minute shorter recast on Holmgang, and it certainly doesn't justify the instant death penalty game.

The 10 second safety cushion doesn't "provide" anything but a transfer into walking dead. If its planned, a DRK can use it 10 seconds before the attack or right before it nothing changes. If its an unplanned use, there is a chance that the healer won't even let it proc and it was wasted, since it has such a high cooldown, in this situation a war was much better off. A warrior can be brought back up to speed with a single cure following deathblows, single healer situation, emergency situations. A DRK requires full HP after the fact and has no tools to assist unless they socket convalescence which really isn't going to save an emergency situation. Honestly WAR has more synergy with living dead than darknight does just because of its HP grab skills which is ridiculous. Wanna trade Invulns? I didn't think so.

In terms of Usability Living dead is not 10 seconds, it is always below 10. At 10 you die anyway. I'd like to meet the healer with balls of steel that let it go to the last tic on purpose. It gets to a point that waiting for the last tic doesn't even matter cause only hits at 1HP are being mitigated and any healing being done is mostly just to get rid of walking dead while hits are still going out which can sometimes cause a panic overheal.

I feel like the people who are giving living dead so much credit are the ones who have not had bad experiences with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

As far as a safety net argument, this comes down to a good healer/bad healer argument. A good healer is likely to know the strategy and take advantage of the ability to not heal the tank before they invuln, a bad healer is likely to not take advantage of this ability.

If you Holmgang a tank buster at 66.5k HP or 1 HP or anywhere in between, it doesn’t matter, if you Hallowed a tank buster at 66.5k HP or at 1 HP, it does not matter. A good healer is going to capitalize on this regardless, so I see little value in the automatic proc. Yes, we can engineer a situation in which this has more value, but in general I don’t see this as an issue. Contrast this with a bad healer who will not take advantage of the safety net. Well in that case you have gained nothing, because the main advantage in this argument is for someone who does not capitalize on it. Tl;dr the safety net argument advantage doesn’t hold water, good healers already realize the safety net before any tank invuln exists in a strategic sense, bad healers don’t and don’t capitalize on it.

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Really just want to foot stomp this point. The 'good healer/bad healer' working with your immunity is the keystone that makes these valuable. If a healer doesn't work with the drk, they can really waste the value of LD by healing back to fast. There is actually the opposite problem with HG. I cant count how many times I have seen my healers 'forget' I am going to holmgang a tank buster and as I drop under 50% BEFORE the buster they panic and lustrate me or whatever to top me off, only to have me holm the buster 2 seconds later. In cases like that, they undo the supposed healer benefit as I get get panic cured before the buster, then bened after (my static has a whm, and my astro seems to have HP bar anxiety lol). Like the 1st buster on clown kefka. You really get a lot of value letting a Drk sit AFTER the buster at 1 HP for 8ish seconds before a bene the same as you get value from letting a war sink a bit BEFORE they use HG. When a healer actually leverages those things, they feel really strong and get a ton of value closer to a hollowed, but the uncoordinated healer can just waste so much of these immunities potential.

The repercussion is worse for drks in DF as you can actually die, but in the coordinated raid setting you can really get a lot more mileage if your healer is working with you freeing up GCDs before the buster for holm or both before AND after on drk.

I think the fundamental difference between my opinion and a lot of people is that I don't think relying on your healer to get more value is a BAD thing. Hollowed is a self contained EZGG button, but I don't see relying on your healers is inherently bad. It is just one more place for players to express their knowledge and skills. With all the 'simplification' going around since SB, I like the areas that still remain. Or maybe its my crotchety old man get of my lawn feelings after playing FFXI for a decade where relying on other people was a fundamental staple of the game. Teamwork doesn't make a skill bad imo. It just gives it opportunities to be even stronger (why LD and HG have much lower timers than hallowed, but nearly as effective with good coordination).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Really just want to foot stomp this point.

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Though you may have wanted to foot stomp my post, I feel you have made my point for me. LD is reliant on your healer, and lets face it, we are always reliant on our healer, but this skill is too reliant on healer input. Once you put this skill into motion, you are entirely within your healers control, nothing is up to you anymore. Its up to the healer to let it proc (you could be healed right through and never see the proc), and its up to the healer to get you up before the 10 seconds runs out. There are very few instances in which this skill has an advantage over the other invulns, and it needs work.

That said we should rely on our healers, and they should rely on us to do our jobs. But LD isn't healer reliant, its healer dependent.

Hows about
4 min CD
Status last 7 seconds and during that period instead of taking damage you heal from it
Making up for having the worse self healing capabilities and just fixing it all together

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Though you may have wanted to foot stomp my post, I feel you have made my point for me. LD is reliant on your healer, and lets face it, we are always reliant on our healer, but this skill is too reliant on healer input. Once you put this skill into motion, you are entirely within your healers control, nothing is up to you anymore. Its up to the healer to let it proc (you could be healed right through and never see the proc), and its up to the healer to get you up before the 10 seconds runs out. There are very few instances in which this skill has an advantage over the other invulns, and it needs work.

That said we should rely on our healers, and they should rely on us to do our jobs. But LD isn't healer reliant, its healer dependent.

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I don't disagree that it is out of the Drk's hands. I just fundamentally don't see a skill that requires coordination to see value as an inherently negative trait. But that's probably from being raised in FFXI where few things stood on their own without a group and group cohesion was a larger factor in success or failure. But I know I'm in the minority on this one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I don't disagree that it is out of the Drk's hands. I just fundamentally don't see a skill that requires coordination to see value as an inherently negative trait. But that's probably from being raised in FFXI where few things stood on their own without a group and group cohesion was a larger factor in success or failure. But I know I'm in the minority on this one.

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I believe you misunderstood my point. My rebuttal to the "cushion" argument isn't about whether or not it is reliant on the healer, its that the cushion exists already on all the tank invulns, its just whether or not the healer decided to use it. Yes, using the pre-tank invuln time to deal damage takes skill and coordination, and yes that is about player skill, but the fundamental argument is that it is still there.

In another thread someone talked about Holmgang not having a huge benefit in o5,6,7 because the tank busters aren't even reducing them to 1 HP. So I looked at a random run of o7s and what was holmgang used on and it appears that the player actually didn't need healing for up to 30 seconds before their use of holmgang. And in this case the healers actually healed up all the remaining damage before the tank buster and shielded for the tankbuster and then healed the same damage a second time, which is exactly the point you made. What could have happened:

30 seconds before the tank buster, healers could have ignored the tank with maybe a regen to keep them from getting too uncomfortably low (even this would have been unnecessary), getting down to 10% or 20% HP, let the tank invuln, giving up their remaining HP, and then the tank could have been oGCD healed (using the oGCDs which were previously used to heal in anticipation of the tank buster), shielded, and regened to get back up wasting relatively few resources and buying the healers multiple damage GCDs or time to watch the bleeds on the dps.

Would the 10 seconds of "cushion" on the dark knight invuln have changed anything significant in that example? No, maybe it would be up earlier later on, but thats the real value of the "cushion", timing. It takes skill to use, and it takes coordination, but that doesn't make it bad. My argument is having the cushion is not the huge benefit it was being made out to be, not that it is bad because it relies on healer skill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Snip

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Ah. Yeah that makes sense. I have never considered the 10 second window before the invuln part of LD needs to trigger as very valuable. It doesn't have any defensive benefit. All it does is make it harder to 'screw up' with miss use and the extremely rare situations that using it early allows you to use it 1 more time in a fight which is terribly specific to call a 'benefit'. That's akin to saying Awareness is OP because if you use it around 15 seconds before the pull in Delta 3 it will be up like 2 seconds before another critical hit!!! Awareness OP! No....the timing happened to work out for 1 fight. That's not some inherent benefit of the skill lol.

I never saw the 10 second cusion/window BEFORE LD triggers as anything more than a QoL so it is nigh impossible to use it 'to late' and die. LD will never have the shelltron problem. ie: pop shelltron for buster, AA 1 second before buster procs it and you die to buster. Or a few of the REALLY narrow holmgang windows trying to invuln a string of damage or position before HG and not being to early or to late on say on an akh morn where the damage is around 5 seconds and you have 6 seconds to work with +human reaction+lag. Or the 1st thunder in neo ex where the party is stacked and everyone spreads while hes casting thunder and if you HG to early you don't make it to your spot and kill someone (bind), if you HG to late you die to thunder. The 10 second LD warm up has no defensive value, just makes it easier to use without screwing up.

IMO the value of LD is the 10 second invuln window that the healer needs to be prepared to leverage. Same duration as hallowed, much less restrictive timing (for the tank to use) than either HG/HG as the invuln only starts when the hit actually happens. No wasting the CD on the front end, but moved to the back on the healer end. All 3 invulns absorb a mega hit. All 3 can be levereaged BEFORE the buster by letting the tank HP drop. The only difference is what happens after the hit and that is healers problem lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Hows about
4 min CD
Status last 7 seconds and during that period instead of taking damage you heal from it
Making up for having the worse self healing capabilities and just fixing it all together

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That's actually damn good, too good actually. SE would do something like make it do a full Reverse where damage heals you, but heals hurt you and you can still die, so a panicked healer who sees you at low HP kills you with their OGCD heal bomb trying to save you at low health. XD

But planned, even that would be better than the current LD. Especially if it was like you're suggesting where heals and damage both healed the DRK.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

That's actually damn good, too good actually. SE would do something like make it do a full Reverse where damage heals you, but heals hurt you and you can still die, so a panicked healer who sees you at low HP kills you with their OGCD heal bomb trying to save you at low health. XD

But planned, even that would be better than the current LD. Especially if it was like you're suggesting where heals and damage both healed the DRK.

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it'd still accomplish the same goal, right? For x seconds, healers could focus on DPS?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

it'd still accomplish the same goal, right? For x seconds, healers could focus on DPS?

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That guy's proposed LD would be superior to the current design because it would work without a healer.

If attacks healed you like a Reverse status ailment, then you'd effectively take no damage instead of having to be topped off. It would actually be closer to a DRK flavored Hallowed, instead.

If my "SE troll" version was what they went with and heals hurt you but damage healed, it would require healer coordination to ensure they stop healing you while it's up but again, a 130+ K tankbuster would leave you at full health instead of them having to heal you out of the Walking Dead state, so it would still be better since no wasted OGCD from the heals.

The more I think about it, the more I really wish it would happen, but it won't.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

The 10 second safety cushion doesn't "provide" anything but a transfer into walking dead. If its planned, a DRK can use it 10 seconds before the attack or right before it nothing changes.

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It is different. An automatic trigger drastically lowers the chances of mistakes. Besides, you will not "waste" anything by using it early, like you would with Hallowed Ground and Holmgang. Especially Holmgang given its short initial duration. It's a "fire and forget" skill for the DRK, while it's a "I must time this exactly right or I die and we most likely wipe" for the WAR and PLD.
There is a reason why people absolutly hate the fact that Hallowed Ground takes about a second to activate, leading to deaths that would not have occured with Living Dead. That simple thing is enough to say that yes, it is different and it does play a role. Brushing it off because people could theoretically be perfect is stupid. The playerbase is far from being made of perfect players. The more safeguards the better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

If its an unplanned use, there is a chance that the healer won't even let it proc and it was wasted, since it has such a high cooldown, in this situation a war was much better off. A warrior can be brought back up to speed with a single cure following deathblows, single healer situation, emergency situations.

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If the WAR has a target. And is in range. And doesn't put the group at risk for being rooted. And doesn't die from an auto-attack after that "single cure".
That's a lot of "if" to strictly say that Holmgang is better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

In terms of Usability Living dead is not 10 seconds, it is always below 10. At 10 you die anyway. I'd like to meet the healer with balls of steel that let it go to the last tic on purpose. It gets to a point that waiting for the last tic doesn't even matter cause only hits at 1HP are being mitigated and any healing being done is mostly just to get rid of walking dead while hits are still going out which can sometimes cause a panic overheal.

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Even if it's 6, 7 or 8 seconds, it's still better than Holmgang and allows you to have more leeway for situations where you need to take multiple hits that would kill you in a row.
Besides, letting it tick to its full duration doesn't achieve anything. As soon as the mechanic is dealt with, and no big benefits would come from letting it tick, LD can be removed. Living Dead not being able to go through all 10 seconds is completly irrelevant. It's a pointless argument. Same thing for Holmgang. Nobody would wait for it to end to get the WAR back up if there's a danger of getting hit after that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I feel like the people who are giving living dead so much credit are the ones who have not had bad experiences with it.

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You can replace "living dead" with Holmgang and Hallowed Grounds anytime.
Who never activated HG just a bit too late and cursed at it for being on cooldown but you being dead? I sure did.
Who never had bad experiences with the range/root/target/timing of Holmgang? I sure did.

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@Chrono_Rising: Most of my post was about the automatic trigger of Living Dead. Not the fact that you can (and should) heal and remove it before the full 10 seconds. I know that you can remove Living Dead before the end. Duh. Almost two thirds of your post missed my point. I seriously cannot be bothered to do a quote war with that.
I'll just bring one thing quickly here: you talked about Living Dead having an issue in O4S in that it required to be correctly timed. And then, in the very next paragraph, you went on to say that timings aren't a big deal after all. Dude. Don't argue against Living Dead just for the sake of it, expecially if you don't even believe in your own arguments. Otherwise, back to square one where I made my first post: the number of people arguing against Living Dead with false/over exaggerated arguments is damn too high. Or just be honest and say that you simply want to vent and that Living Dead seems like a good scapegoat.

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Look, I fully agree that Living Dead drawback could be better. But frankly, you have to admit that some arguments in this thread are simply ridiculous. Living Dead doesn't only have negative points. It's not unusable. It doesn't require that much effort to deal with.
Besides, there's no rule saying that all three "invulnerability" skills must be on an equal footing. Is Living Dead good enough to do what it's supposed to do? Yes it is. Could it be better? Sure. Does it absolutly need to be? Not at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

That's actually damn good, too good actually. SE would do something like make it do a full Reverse where damage heals you, but heals hurt you and you can still die, so a panicked healer who sees you at low HP kills you with their OGCD heal bomb trying to save you at low health. XD

But planned, even that would be better than the current LD. Especially if it was like you're suggesting where heals and damage both healed the DRK.

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Itll be good but its not hallowed good since you could still gets debuffs from Tank busters like susano unlike hallow ground

The healers heals hurting dark would be a good reference to older ff games

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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@Chrono_Rising: Most of my post was about the automatic trigger of Living Dead. Not the fact that you can (and should) heal and remove it before the full 10 seconds. I know that you can remove Living Dead before the end. Duh. Almost two thirds of your post missed my point. I seriously cannot be bothered to do a quote war with that.

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Well it’s not what you wrote:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The automatic proc guarantees the full duration of the 10 seconds "1hp" state no matter what happens.

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Even with benediction you will not get the full 10 seconds just because it automatically popped, nothing guarantees the full duration of Living Dead. I wouldn’t get into a quote war either when I am quoted being flat out wrong either. The first half of my post is pointing out you are making points which I already made and acknowledged about the warrior invuln which I again supported with the fact that these strategies work in the majority of the turns this tier. The point was that there are a variety of ways to handle holmgang, but Living dead doesn't you just have to heal it. This leads me to believe that you didn’t really read it and are more reactionary posting.

The second half of my post is addressing this idea that the automatic trigger was a guaranteed invuln. Your posts seem to claim that Holmgang suffers greatly from human error, and that this isn't a thing on living dead. I'm was attempting to show you some of the ways living dead can be impacted by human error.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I'll just bring one thing quickly here: you talked about Living Dead having an issue in O4S in that it required to be correctly timed. And then, in the very next paragraph, you went on to say that timings aren't a big deal after all.

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I assume you are talking about this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I like the fact that you took Neo Exdeath as an example, it's probably one of the lastest end game content where this difference is the most obvious. With Holmgang, your timing needs to be perfect. Even more so during the delta followed by a random laser that you need to avoid, which can be problematic because of the root. The chance for mistakes is quite high. With Living Dead, the chance of messing up is almost zero thanks to that safety cushion.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Living dead also has issues with thunder since healers may also need to dodge, which brings us into the early movement/removing walking dead debuff from pre-healing the debuff off. It was particularly bad for the second thunder buster. And if you had to time your LD for the thunder then you needed to pop it early on the first one, and if you popped it too early you would need to die to start the walking debuff and keep your invuln, which was possible provided you were not getting healed during that time. Be slightly late in use and it wasn't up when you needed it. Again, all skills have human error.
As I’ve pointed out, there are still errors that can happen, the cushion is not a panacea. Your points mainly lay on human error factors, the point is human error still impacts living dead. Again, most of the cushion value is in time management. And we are drastically overstating the difficulty of popping a cooldown at the last second to get additional benefits. For example holding Hallowed to catch two busters in o8s by popping it later in the cast, it is not particularly difficult.

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Lets break this down, you claim that Holmgang has to be timed and the change of messing up Living dead is almost zero, and immune to the human error you are claiming holmgang suffers from.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

With Living Dead, the chance of messing up is almost zero thanks to that safety cushion.

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I point out that Living Dead also has the issue of being timed (because what skill doesn’t need to be timed?) and is also prone to error, but then go on to claim that I think this whole timing thing is being blown out of proportion in terms of its difficulty. And somehow I’m the one that doesn’t understand? Interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Dude. Don't argue against Living Dead just for the sake of it, expecially if you don't even believe in your own arguments. Otherwise, back to square one where I made my first post: the number of people arguing against Living Dead with false/over exaggerated arguments is damn too high. Or just be honest and say that you simply want to vent and that Living Dead seems like a good scapegoat.
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I believe the things I’ve said, and believe I put in time and effort to actually consider the posts and issues. Your points have been pointed out as being misleading or flat out wrong, but your defense is to claim those correcting you don’t understand. Cool, I’m going to see my way out of this posting argument since clearly meaningful conversation is impossible.

I lack the motivation to counter argue your post so please settle with a reactionary gif and lets agree to disagree.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RingedInco...al-max-1mb.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Itll be good but its not hallowed good since you could still gets debuffs from Tank busters like susano unlike hallow ground

The healers heals hurting dark would be a good reference to older ff games

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Yep, and that's fine because I'm still operating on the idea it's a shorter CD. So the shorter CD would make up for not being Hallowed.

Sigmascape Savage 1.0 and 2.0 did a good job of exploiting the holes in Holmgang's kit. You can't solo the stack winds from 2.0 (specifically the second one, nothing nearby to Holmgang to), and if your co-tank in 1.0 gets trapped before a tankswap, it is impossible to drop the prey marker at far back and get back in time to holmgang, I've tried (instead, have to place it not as far back, so you have time to return).

/shrug. Just my thoughts on the matter.

I'd make it work like this:

Grants the effect of Living Dead.
When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead. ---> Change in ---> CANNOT BE HEALED WHILE ACTIVE (heals will perform 0 healing on you)
Living Dead Duration: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, most attacks will not lower your HP below 1. ---> Change in ---> While a walking dead you heal back for X% of total damage done (but you are immune to all other forms of heals).

If, before the Walking Dead timer runs out, HP is 100% restored, the effect will fade. ---> Change in ---> just remove this line
If 100% is not restored, you will be KO'd.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

So:

DRK triggers LD (10 secs)
if his HP does not get <= 1 you waste it

if HP hits 1 or below:
You cant be pushed under 1HP
BUT
You have 10 secs to full heal yourself (else you die)

The X percentage you get (from ALL the damage you deal) should be high enough (150-200%) maybe?

This way the skill would be a DPS race trigger

OR could just heal back for less but let's get rid of the "you die if not 100%"

Timings, procs could be reworked but i'd like to see an "undead" DK sapping life out of his enemies

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noldornir

I'd make it work like this:

Grants the effect of Living Dead.
When HP is reduced to 0 while under the effect of Living Dead, instead of becoming KO'd, your status will change to Walking Dead. ---> Change in ---> CANNOT BE HEALED WHILE ACTIVE (heals will perform 0 healing on you)
Living Dead Duration: 10s
While under the effect of Walking Dead, most attacks will not lower your HP below 1. ---> Change in ---> While a walking dead you heal back for X% of total damage done (but you are immune to all other forms of heals).

If, before the Walking Dead timer runs out, HP is 100% restored, the effect will fade. ---> Change in ---> just remove this line
If 100% is not restored, you will be KO'd.
Walking Dead Duration: 10s

So:

DRK triggers LD (10 secs)
if his HP does not get <= 1 you waste it

if HP hits 1 or below:
You cant be pushed under 1HP
BUT
You have 10 secs to full heal yourself (else you die)

The X percentage you get (from ALL the damage you deal) should be high enough (150-200%) maybe?

This way the skill would be a DPS race trigger

OR could just heal back for less but let's get rid of the "you die if not 100%"

Timings, procs could be reworked but i'd like to see an "undead" DK sapping life out of his enemies

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That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.

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Dont see why it can have some aspects like that especially since soul eater,sole survivor and blood spiller all sounds like a death knight move
Living dead reversing damage would definitely fix it and be much more unique shouldn't have the 0 healing though
Should just be left like that

I dont think the insurance move should have such a down fall with Big CD
PLD you just have to wait for the dance,
And Holmgang benefits out weight the negatives.

I mean living dead back in Alexander 3 savage whas one of the ways to get a massive dmg lead on the boss just because you could solo tank the band for a short while. The problem with living dead is just with exception of the root and the timer it is active and the ‘Borrowed time’ is effect it’s more or less a 1 hp I need heal situation. The tank still needs to healed with the difference that holm gives you the freedom of how mutch, LD just say 100 % and you rarely have 100 % perfectly, it’s either over heal or not enough that mostly ends in over heal. And the biggest plus is the cd, hg with his 3 mins that in a really long fight (ultimate) you have around 5 times then LD 3 times. I play Drk, pld and war a lot and I still believe holm is busted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

That would make it just as bad as it already is, it's just shifting the burden of removing LD from 2 healers to 1 tank. And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from, you end up adding all of Holmgang's restrictions to it.

Also please, DARK knight is NOT "death" knight. The only thing that relates to undeath is the move that's causing all the problems the class has and it feels out of place even thematically.

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The burden would need to be adjusted not to be too heavy (or work in a different manner) but it should sit on the tank shoulders i believe (DK doing well will be rewarded while now the DK with a better healer is).

Dark not being Death is right, but, during that skill, the DK IS an undead (I suppose the idea is that his mastery of dark arts allows him to cheat death for a time).

You stated this issue tho:

Quote:

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And it does not stop there, as you need a target to life steal from

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This is probably the stronger flaw in my suggestion as in this game you don't have an available target sometimes during mechs.

The biggest issue to me has always been that living dead requires another player to know how it works (the healer) and said healer may not even know what living dead is.

Having to rely on someone else to use your skill immediately makes it useless. PLD had the same thing with divine veil so they changed it so PLD could proc it themselves and that’s not nearly as big of a deal as the tanks invulnerability skill!

My suggested change for LD is to make it so that upon using it you can’t be healed anymore for the 10 second duration but if you hit 1hp you instantly recover full health and the status is removed. This would make it somewhat require good timing on the DRKs part or it would actually be a hinderance since if they don’t hit 1hp they’ve just wasted any potential healing they could have had in that time. But it would make it useful even when independent of a healer and a healer who doesn’t know how it works will soon learn as it’s only their own time/mp being wasted trying to cure the DRK rather than risking the DRKs life.

I think this would make it fit the in between hallowed and holmgang vibe it’s going for way better, having a shorter CD than hallowed but a stronger effect than holmgang. (Only useful if you hit 1hp like holmgang but also giving you a full heal if you do).

I agree you should alway be able to proc your own skills alone but wouldn't your change make LD much weaker tho? I mean:

PAL wih HG on= cant be wounded REGARDLESS of damage/number of hits received
WAR wit HOL= can be wounded but can't die REGARDLESS of damage/number of hits received

They'll both survive even 5 1 million HP worth hits:

A 30k HP PAL would receive no damage from any of those hit
a 30k HP WAR would be brought down to 1 HP with the first hit but then will receive no damage from the others (unless he gets healed but again that would just waste the healer MP and the WAR would be brought back to 1 HP with next hit but will never die)


While a 30k DRK would be:

1st hit: brought to 1 HP
Auto Heal from LD -> bring him back to 30K
2 hit: death

At any rate those skills are supposed to help you when a healer can't; it's pointless to make an healer need it: in 4 man if someone dies and the healer uses raise without having swiftcast available, even if it's an "oh shit" moment you can use em (as a WAR/PAL not very wise as a DRK tho).
If the healer dies an a smn/rdm is ressing him you don't want to use this skill as a DRK or you'll probably die as well.

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Originally Posted by Noldornir

I agree you should alway be able to proc your own skills alone but wouldn't your change make LD much weaker tho? I mean:

PAL wih HG on= cant be wounded REGARDLESS of damage/number of hits received
WAR wit HOL= can be wounded but can't die REGARDLESS of damage/number of hits received

They'll both survive even 5 1 million HP worth hits:

A 30k HP PAL would receive no damage from any of those hit
a 30k HP WAR would be brought down to 1 HP with the first hit but then will receive no damage from the others (unless he gets healed but again that would just waste the healer MP and the WAR would be brought back to 1 HP with next hit but will never die)


While a 30k DRK would be:

1st hit: brought to 1 HP
Auto Heal from LD -> bring him back to 30K
2 hit: death

At any rate those skills are supposed to help you when a healer can't; it's pointless to make an healer need it: in 4 man if someone dies and the healer uses raise without having swiftcast available, even if it's an "oh shit" moment you can use em (as a WAR/PAL not very wise as a DRK tho).
If the healer dies an a smn/rdm is ressing him you don't want to use this skill as a DRK or you'll probably die as well.

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Yes that is the major issue with the design, it means that DRK would be the only tank who can’t eat, let’s say, ahk morn solo, but outside of attempting to cheese mechanics like that, I can’t think of any scenario where the game throws multiple attacks that can 1 shot you in such quick succession and there are scenarios where current LD and hallowed work where holmgang doesn’t for cheese strats so I’d say it’s fair for DRK to have that too.

I'm not sure why people are trying to figure out an appropriate penalty for Living Dead. Hallowed Ground doesn't have a penalty. It just has you ignore damage. It's powerful. It makes you feel good for using it. The recast isn't a penalty either. Invulns should be on a 5-7 minute recast at the very minimum. That's just good design.

Holmgang doesn't actually have a penalty. It prevents knockback. It has a stupidly low recast, to the point of being one of the single most broken abilities in the game. It's powerful. It feels good to use.

So why should we settle for having to have healers burn their cooldowns to save us from Living Dead? Simply for the privilege of doing what other tanks can do in their sleep? I'm sorry, but it's not acceptable.

If you want Living Dead to actually represent a "middle ground" between Hallowed and Holmgang, then two things must happen. First, you need a full 10 seconds of invulnerability, regardless of what happens. Second, when you hit 1 HP, you need some sort of a self-healing effect, either through your own attacks or your enemies', which starts making your HP tick back up. That's the middle ground between negating damage and preventing death. Stop penalising us for using our ultimate ability, and let it actually feel good to use.

And either way, there is no reason why Holmgang should be less than five minutes. The existence of a three minute recast invincibility is why progression raiders are laughing their way through your tankbusters. Stop trivialising the content.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Sigmascape Savage 1.0 and 2.0 did a good job of exploiting the holes in Holmgang's kit. You can't solo the stack winds from 2.0 (specifically the second one, nothing nearby to Holmgang to), and if your co-tank in 1.0 gets trapped before a tankswap, it is impossible to drop the prey marker at far back and get back in time to holmgang, I've tried (instead, have to place it not as far back, so you have time to return).

/shrug. Just my thoughts on the matter.

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i recomend you to put "How to solo soak 2nd O6S Flash Gale stack marker as WAR" on google you will be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hallowed Ground doesn't have a penalty. The recast isn't a penalty.

Holmgang has a stupidly low recast, to the point of being one of the single most broken abilities in the game.

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So recast isn't a penalty but holmgang's recast makes it too strong? Get your story straight.

All the tank invulns have benefits and drawbacks to them.

Hallowed has a long duration and powerful effect with the drawback being that it has a long cooldown lowering its usability to once maybe twice per fight.
Holmgang has a short recast with the drawback being it has an extremely short duration and only actually does anything if you hit 1hp requiring a lot better timing and skill to make use of it than hallowed.
Living dead has the highest potential duration with a cooldown between the other two, while sharing the 1hp drawback with holmgang while adding the healer requirement/death penalty on top of that.

the bolded is the part people take issue with, the longer duration benefit is made up for by the longer recast drawback. So there is no reason for there to be ANOTHER additional stipulation on top of that. The drawbacks of LD start to outweigh any benefits and make it not worth using.

LD doesn't need a drastic rework, if it didn't have the healing requirement and walking dead was just a 10 second holmgang then it would be completely fine. It is simply the healing drawback that pushes it over the edge.

The single most important feature of an invulnerability cooldown is the number of tankbusters that you can mitigate with it per fight. Generally speaking, this is determined by recast. When you look at Living Dead and Hallowed's recasts, you're generally not going to get an extra use of Living Dead over Hallowed. Why? Most fights are about ten minutes long. So as long as you can invuln a tankbuster in the first 3 minutes, you're probably going to get the same amount of uses out of Hallowed as well. If you contrast this with Holmgang, which has less than half the recast of Hallowed, it becomes quickly obvious that you will get an extra use out of Holmgang on every fight.

Living Dead only mitigates damage when Walking Dead is active. Because the effect gets cleansed by a healer, the maximum possible duration is 9 seconds. More often than not, however, this effect gets cleansed much sooner for a few reasons. First, not every group has access to Benediction, and your healer has no way of knowing how much remaining healing you require if they're manually removing the effect. So you're going to get spammed with heals until the effect disappears, generally well before 9 seconds. Second, most healers just aren't comfortable waiting until the last possible second to remove the effect. The end result is that Living Dead, on average, tends to have a much, much shorter duration than even Holmgang.

Living Dead does need a rework from the point of view that it's a badly designed ability. But that's a DRK-specific issue. Holmgang needs a longer recast simply because the existence of such a short recast invincibility move trivialises content. That not just an issue that impacts WAR, it impacts how all groups run content. Before they do anything else, they need to push the invuln recasts back to at least 5/6/7 minutes for WAR/DRK/PLD. Possibly longer.