[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

Though I absolutely love the solution in this thread, does anyone else get the feeling they already know what and how they are going to implement this, and that it is too late for something this big?

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Originally Posted by Shura

I think what most ppl complained about in regards to the current system was not the name of the classes but the fact they did not have Defining roles to differentiate each class in terms of gameplay. You can have the exact same skills equipped on MRD, LNC, PUG and not see much of a difference in role and i don't see this proposed system fixing that underline issue. If every class is allowed to equip every job title. My question to you is what differentiates a DRK/LNC, DRK/MRD and DRK/PUG other then the weapon they use in this new system.

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You bring very good points. And I think there are two different things here.

1: lack of differentiation between the current classes. This needs to be addressed regardless of any type of advanced class implementation.

2: The implementation of advanced class/ job/title/whatever.
You ask "what's the difference between DRK/LNC vs DRK/MRD?". There would not be more difference as there is difference between LNC and MRD at the moment. But your DRK title is giving you this role you are referring at. Very simply, it adds to the current system the possibility of defining your role.

Right now both mages are proper healers. So if you want to play the healer role, you, become a white mage, and you can decide for which set of skills you want to have 100% potency, i-e from THM or CON

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Well another one is coming up, and almost every patch has to play with the problem of Blue and that's just one class.

Imagine 6 classes, and forget about it if they start adding classes.

And WoW rebalances but at least they have the manpower too. FF14 is so backlogged they can't even rebalance the existing broken skill sets. I don't think even WoW's manpower could do it if every skill can cross into every class. They at least have the luxury of only needing to work within the same tree.

Look at their 2010 patches. The best they could do was 4 skills, when about two dozen of them WS do nothing.

If you want 70% of your patches be rebalancing, the current system is fine, don't even have to touch it at all, the fact that they couldn't put the manpower in it is what makes this system broken.

They could have put every WS into "weapon only" and put every single good cross skills into double or triple SP requirement. Play with it long enough and the problem will go away at colossal effort.

But the moment you introduce a new skill, it's colossal effort +1.

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Well there isn't a whole lot to compare too, but if you want MMO to be as balanced as you say then its going to either be exactly or extremely similar to FFXI or WOW, but IMO this Title System can be different and still balanced. It's a hell of a lot better than what it is now and I have seen no other better ideas.

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Originally Posted by Point_Zero

Though I absolutely love the solution in this thread, does anyone else get the feeling they already know what and how they are going to implement this, and that it is too late for something this big?

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Well they hinted that they will add either sets of unlockable "advanced classes" or specialization, but they have not taken a decision in this regard. So I think they are working on it and considering the options, because once the decision is taken, there is no turning back.

Honestly, I really don't think that this system would be hard to implement. Add a quest to unlock the ability to "equip" a title + a quest for every title. Add a menu tab to select your title, available traits for that title are automatically equipped when the title is selected. In the window where you select your abilities from the different classes, there is an additional tab for the abilities granted by your current title.

We already rank up 2 levels of character growth independently : phys and class.
If they take away the phys, then it's not more complicated to implement a system to rank up class and titles independently as it is atm to rank up phys and class.

I'm fairly certain Phys LV. WILL be removed. Here is a post I made previously concerning this issue.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...1399#post41399

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Originally Posted by northernsky

Honestly, I really don't think that this system would be hard to implement. Add a quest to unlock the ability to "equip" a title + a quest for every title. Add a menu tab to select your title, available traits for that title are automatically equipped when the title is selected. In the window where you select your abilities from the different classes, there is an additional tab for the abilities granted by your current title.

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This is pretty much how I see it being done. And if people were really averse to being able to switch their job/title so quickly (because you lose "immersion" or something), then they could always integrate it as something that you do at an aetheryte crystal.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

Quote from Letter from the Producer, V
"The bonus point allotment system was intended to be a means by which players could customize their character's individuality. The free distribution of attribute points has given rise to certain problems, however, such as compatibility issues with the Armoury system, and the lowered effectiveness of the attributes themselves. In particular, this lowered effectiveness of attributes also extends its influence to items, and is therefore something that we feel must be rectified. To do so, we are currently looking into the following two options:
1. Removal of the bonus point system, and the addition of automatic allotment of attribute points based on class.
2. Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank."

Now with option 1 the stat/gear system would be setup up exactly like FFXI. This means that the amount of points allowed to use is different for each class based based on the rank of the class and most likely equivalent to that if compared to physical levels. Now with this setup attribute stats will be allowed to increase to their highest potential since SE has direct control of class stats. With this setup you customize your character with gear rather than with allocated points. This will also add to class uniqueness since no class will have the exact same stats and thus will make actions more effective on certain classes.

Now option 2 increases the potential of attribute stats but not as high as option 1. This will put much more emphasis on customization through allocated stats while allowing maybe up to 10-20% of customization for gear (attributes only).

Personally this is a very hard decision for me to choose which is ultimately best because they are both very good solutions and I would be happy either way.

As from a min-maxer perspective you could spend just as long deciding on allocated stats as gear choices so I don't think that is a valid argument.

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(Sorry I edited your quote to get rid of the "OP" reference since I pulled this from a different thread, didn't want to make it confusing)

Personally I could see them doing either as well. The first option, like you said, would give SE more control over stat progression for a given class. And the system basically forcing you to have a certain stat set-up (before gear bonuses are applied) would do a lot for class differentiation.

I think I lean more towards the second option though. Letting players customize their stats at a local level based on ranks for each class might be a better compromise.

Another idea to push class differentiation would be to have the stats cap differently for each class/rank. So to put this in the framework of this thread's system, a BLM might have a higher stat cap on INT, then say a PLD. This leaves customization open, but limits you from going too far in an unnatural extreme.

They should also just show us when our stats have been capped (maybe change the color of the font) rather than having people have to test out and find all the stat caps themselves.

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Originally Posted by Eremor

A simple way to implement this kind of system would be to simply change the physical level into a job level.

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So if they get rid of the physical levels, is this essentially what happens?

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Originally Posted by Eremor

First off, I was under the impression that SE was planning to do away with physical levels entirely anyway. But with this double class system that does raise the question of which would give you stat points. Perhaps it could be both, you get a few points when you rank up your discipline and then a few more points when you level up your job.

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So that's a good question: should your stat points be based on your weapon class rank or on your job class rank?

If we want to differentiate the jobs, then they should be based on the job rank I think because stats help you to perform your role.

But, we want to have people unlocking jobs after a certain level, like ~20. Since in that case you wouldn't have a job at the beginning of the game to determine your stats.

Alternatively we could have a player start the game with a couple basic job options immediately available, but then you would have to rework so many more things in the game like the character selection, opening tutorials/quests, etc.

Another alternative is to have, like Cairdeas suggested earlier, all of these things (Job Title, Weapon Class, Rank, and Gear) contribute to your stats (although not all equally).

I could see this being similar to the Subjob system again where you started off as a single job (here it would be just a weapon class) which determined your stats, but when you learned to equip a subjob, applying that subjob boosted your stats. This gives players an incentive to unlock a title asap so they can essentially become more powerful.

Would you be able to customize/allocate some "bonus" stats in this kind of set up? Which of these sources should give you the option to play around with your stats, if any?

I still think they should take away the physical level and manual stat allocation and replace it with the same stat system blue mage from XI has.

I love this write up, you have clearly spent alot of time thinking this through. But in all honesty, I don't want to play FF11-2. I think you did a great job in devising this, but I don't want to have Dark Knight, Ninja, Ranger, etc. And SE promised this game would be drastically different from FFXI, so while the basic premise of you system works, I don't think they'd use Soul Eater, Arcana killer, etc. But what they could do is use a FF: Tactics approach. I believe gladiator and archer were DD classes in the gameboy FF tactics. So it appears they have already taken a tactics approach to FF14. So instead of ranger, Dark Knight, etc. they could go fighter, assassin, sniper, sage, time mage, etc. (whice are tactics named classes).
This would work well with your design, if you wanted your "Gladiator to focus on brutal aoe and single target sword attacks, they would specialize in the "Fighter" title. If you wanted your conjurer to cast heavy DD spells with few support spells, they'd master in "Sage." If you wanted your Thaumaturge to be specialized in time based magic (Slows, gravities, Stop, paralyze, haste type spells) they'd take a Time Mage title. So on and so forth.
I really think you have an excellent idea, lets just implement different stuff than was in FF11, if they used your model, with a FF tactics theme, this game would rock so hard.

*Edited for spelling and grammar errors*

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I still think they should take away the physical level and manual stat allocation and replace it with the same stat system blue mage from XI has.

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Having each individual action add different stat bonuses would be very interesting. I used /BLU a lot in FFXI and I changed my spells around all the time adjusting stats/changing job traits/trying out new spell tactics. I think this adds a very good layer to the FFXIV Armoury System by having a higher opportunity cost on actions and that can appeal to one class action wise and another class stat wise.

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Originally Posted by Punxsutawney

I love this write up, you have clearly spent alot of time thinking this through. But in all honesty, I don't want to play FF11-2. I think you did a great job in devising this, but I don't want to have Dark Knight, Ninja, Ranger, etc. And SE promised this game would be drastically different from FFXI, so while the basic premise of you system works, I don't think they'd use Soul Eater, Arcana killer, etc. But what they could do is use a FF: Tactics approach. I believe gladiator and archer were DD classes in the gameboy FF tactics. So it appears they have already taken a tactics approach to FF14. So instead of ranger, Dark Knight, etc. they could go fighter, assassin, sniper, sage, time mage, etc. (whice are tactics named classes).
This would work well with your design, if you wanted your "Gladiator to focus on brutal aoe and single target sword attacks, they would specialize in the "Fighter" title. If you wanted your conjurer to cast heavy DD spells with few support spells, they'd master in "Sage." If you wanted your Thaumaturge to be specialized in time based magic (Slows, gravities, Stop, paralyze, haste type spells) they'd take a Time Mage title. So on and so forth.
I really think you have an excellent idea, lets just implement different stuff than was in FF11, if they used your model, with a FF tactics theme, this game would rock so hard.

*Edited for spelling and grammar errors*

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Sorry for the double post. Honestly it doesn't matter what they name the jobs/titles as long as the system itself is implemented. Personally I wouldn't mind either way, this system just greatly appeals to me.

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Originally Posted by Punxsutawney

SE promised this game would be drastically different from FFXI, so while the basic premise of you system works, I don't think they'd use Soul Eater, Arcana killer, etc.

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I think it was during the Tanaka period that they really wanted to differentiate FFXIV from FFXI. I think Yoshi-P has said in interviews that the previous developers had tried to make the game purposefully too different from FFXI and in some ways it was unnecessary.

The "Soul Eater", "Arcana Killer" I know make this look like a FFXI close in some ways, but I just thought I'd use abilities that people were familiar with to illustrate the idea. They can/should re-do and rework these abilities for this game. I know it looks this is literally taking FFXI and throwing it on top of the armory system, but they don't have to design the titles exactly the way they were in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Punxsutawney

But what they could do is use a FF: Tactics approach. I believe gladiator and archer were DD classes in the gameboy FF tactics. So it appears they have already taken a tactics approach to FF14. So instead of ranger, Dark Knight, etc. they could go fighter, assassin, sniper, sage, time mage, etc. (whice are tactics named classes).
This would work well with your design, if you wanted your "Gladiator to focus on brutal aoe and single target sword attacks, they would specialize in the "Fighter" title. If you wanted your conjurer to cast heavy DD spells with few support spells, they'd master in "Sage." If you wanted your Thaumaturge to be specialized in time based magic (Slows, gravities, Stop, paralyze, haste type spells) they'd take a Time Mage title. So on and so forth.

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By "specializing" do you mean that Gladiator would become Fighter? Would Fighter also be an option for other classes like Marauder and Pugilist? The system in this thread is just trying to keep the combinations of Title/Weapon as open as possible so people still have a lot of choices for customization.

You could still unlock titles in a FF Tactics style in this system. Like maybe it would make more sense that you couldn't unlock the Title of Black Mage until you learned some of these "core" Black Mage spells from THM and CON. I still think there should be a threshold like have to have atleast one job @ lvl 20 to unlock a title, but maybe having requirement that needed to be met (based on certain skills that had to be learned vs. having to have certain ranks in certain weapons), that way someone couldn't say level a Marauder to 20 and do a quest for White Mage title without having any White Mage abilities to use! If that's what your're suggesting, I think that would be a cool idea.

I personally would like them to bring back those traditional FF names, but if they basically had the same thing but translated a different way to fit the "mood"/"world" of Eorzea, that wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.

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So there have been a lot of ideas floating around the forums about how to incorporate traditional FF jobs into FFXIV. One of the main reasons people want traditional jobs is that they feel right now there isn't a very strong sense of class uniqueness or role identification in the game. For example, a Conjurer is a hodgepodge of different skills that can be used for nuking, buffing, and and/or healing.

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Yes and not.
The main reason people want traditional jobs is because people don’t like changes.
A conjurer is an healer, a buffer and a DPS, all depends how you play it. However, you are not the best healer if you don’t take sacrifice for example, and for dps purpose you need Bio/Dia/Poison and various buffes from different jobs.

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We need more Class Uniqueness and Role Identification
As the game is right now there is no way for a player playing a Conjurer to let other people in their party know what type of role they want to play. Sure, you could create a specialist class (ex. healer/buffer) by mixing abilities from various classes, but it's hard to identify with vague class hybrids the way that we were able to identify with clear-cut classes (classes filled with a rich tradition of lore) like those in FFXI and previous FF games.

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You need, Not “we”. There is a simple way to communicate with others. It’s called “chat”. If I want DPS I can say “I’m a DPS”; If they want an healer, they can ask “do you want heal?”
In previous games what? In ff7 we use materia, everyone could heal or dps. In FF8 we use summons, and absorb magic. In final fantasy10 there are spheres, and everyone can do everything. In FF12 same with that chess-like board. Final Fantasy is a system where everyone can do everything, it's just a matter of time.

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This idea puts FFXIV classes on the same plane as FFXI jobs, which doesn't make sense with the current armory system because in FFXIV class=”weapon skills”, and in FFXI class=”job”.

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Not really. Gladiator, Conjurer, Thaumaturge are classes. They can do a “role”. I can be a debuffer as a thaumaturge; I can decide to improve my character with conjurer, gladiator, lancer... but I’m not forced to do that. It’s my choice, because I wanna rasp a bit some imperfection.

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DOMs are a little trickier to classify, but you can think of a conjurer as a direct-magic expert (with elemental themes) and thaumaturge as a damage-over-time-magic expert (with light/dark themes).

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No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

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The classes we have right now do not define roles, but instead comprise a collection of skills associated with a particular weapon. We tend to think of gladiators as “tanks” (because they have some defensive abilities such as “rampart”, “sentinel”, “cover”, etc.), but there is nothing inherent to them being “the” tank class...in fact, if marauder could wield 1-handed axes with shields you could argue that they would be equally effective tanks (if not better) with abilities like “defender”, “disorient”, “foresight”, etc. So as the system stands right now, classes do not define any particular roles, but are the building blocks for creating roles or “jobs”.
Armory System allows for a lot of Customization
Even though the armory system seems to create rather “grey”, “undefined” classes, it does have some benefits that are worth keeping or putting into consideration when thinking about a possible redesign. I'm sure everyone can appreciate the convenience of being able to change your current class simply by changing your weapon. The other advantage of the current system is all the options for customization available—being able to directly swap abilities between classes allows us to really support our own playstyle to maximum effect.

As I suggested earlier, they packed too much into weapon classes in FFXIV. By introducing titles, we have a place to unpack some of these “role” and “specific” skills into and let weapon classes focus more on the “action” and “general” skills.

As you can see, the spells that are used by a Dark Knight map really well from FFXIV, but the Abilities and Traits that define the flavor of the Dark Knight are laughably missing good substitutes. If you want to be a melee, then your best bet is probably to be a Marauder or Lancer since they are the only two-handed melee weapons atm, but this kinda gimps out all the DOM spells that are giving more flavor to your “class” than your marauder or lancer skills.
With the title system, you have all these spells that come from THM and CON the same way as before, but you gain abilities and traits like Last Resort, Soul Eater, and Attack Bonus that you didn't have before.

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And if do they add a job/weapon/class called knight, who got the missing skill you are asking? SE can add a class with 2hweapon able to stun, absorb SP, with skill who deal damage using your HP. Does he need to change everything for that?
I continue to not understand why you (and other players of course) want weakness. If you don’t like cure2 with a marad or a pugilist, don’t use it.
A lot of videogames, mainly the so-called “sandboxes” don’t have classes, only skills. Players pick up the skills they prefer and mix. It’s SO DAMN fun!
When you, and other players, will start to think “this is FF14, not FF11” and will begin to think “how do I want my character?”, you’ll finally grab the core of the game.
If SE adds classes/job/weapons, it’s nice, if these classes got something interesting I’ll play with them. But the system you have posted is only a complicated wire.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

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They can be.
But Thaums specialization is cone aoe and damage over time/healing over time.
While Conj specialization is circle AOE and direct damage elemental spells and heals.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

There is a simple way to communicate with others. It’s called “chat”. If I want DPS I can say “I’m a DPS”; If they want an healer, they can ask “do you want heal?” In previous games what? In ff7 we use materia, everyone could heal or dps. In FF8 we use summons, and absorb magic. In final fantasy10 there are spheres, and everyone can do everything. In FF12 same with that chess-like board. Final Fantasy is a system where everyone can do everything, it's just a matter of time.

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You're right I shouldn't be making broad generalization about what people want, but if you look at the player poll results the issue of class uniqueness was significant across all regions:

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Yoshi-P, Letter from the Producer V: the lack of class uniqueness seems to be prevalent in all regions. As this relates closely to core elements such as battle strategy, party composition, and attributes, we will be giving it top priority

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Also, you mentioned arguably the most customizable installments in the series (as far as a character being able to customize their own role), but what about FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF9, FF11?

The Title/Job system gives you plenty of options, what it doesn't do is let everybody be able to do everything EQUALLY well. That I think was a problem, at least for me, with FFXII, once you filled up the license board there was nothing to differentiate your characters other than the armor/weapon you chose to equip, you could use all the abilities/spells with equal proficiency so imposing a role on a specific character was just a state of mind, not something that was implemented into the system.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

Not really. Gladiator, Conjurer, Thaumaturge are classes. They can do a “role”. I can be a debuffer as a thaumaturge; I can decide to improve my character with conjurer, gladiator, lancer... but I’m not forced to do that. It’s my choice, because I wanna rasp a bit some imperfection.


No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

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All you are doing by using a title/job is furthering your ability to perform a role, you're still able to draw on other weapon skills to customize your character, you just become more effective in a role by using a title. It helps others identify what you want to do for the party and it let's you be part of a class that is part of the FF mythos. If that's not something you want then well, I guess we have different tastes.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

They can be.
But Thaums specialization is cone aoe and damage over time/healing over time.
While Conj specialization is circle AOE and direct damage elemental spells and heals.

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I actually prefer choke + burn + other dot spells than fire II/blizzard II.
If we talk about elements vs holy+umbral we can agree easily, if we talk about how a player prefer to play his own char... hmmm.

@Carpe. Exactly, it's a state of mind. this is the good thing of the system.
I'm not forced to create another character, I'm not forced to level up in a specific role.

If I'm playing an healing class, for example, I'm forced to level with a group.
Better, I'm forced to level with a group where there are DPS.
More, I'm forced to level in a group, with a tank and with DPS.

Actually if I'm playing as... pugilist ok? I can accept a casual party from an unknown, without worring about his class.
Can he heal? Nice! I will have less trouble (I hope XD).
He cannot heal? Nevermind, I can heal myself in some way.
If I had a 50% reduced heal from cure, probably I was not able to heal myself, so I was forced to search a proper class and refuse the party.
I prefer this uniqueness comes from stats, equip, personal choices, experience, balancing with others.

However, we cannot do everything: we have 2 important things to consider.
1. skill you can equip
2. time of a rotation. We can equip ...5 different dps skills, but we have to consider TP, cast time, cooldown, in the end, I use only 2 or 3.

I don't like cages. I have played different games, but generally I play hybrids, so I can fill a different role whenever is necessary.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

I'm not forced to create another character, I'm not forced to level up in a specific role.

If I'm playing an healing class, for example, I'm forced to level with a group.
Better, I'm forced to level with a group where there are DPS.
More, I'm forced to level in a group, with a tank and with DPS.

Actually if I'm playing as... pugilist ok? I can accept a casual party from an unknown, without worring about his class.

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No one is forcing you to do anything in this system. If you think you don't have to "create another character" in FFXIV with the armory system that's just an illusion, if you've been playing pugilist and want to learn how to heal you have to become a THM or CON and level them up anyway (second wind cooldown/stamina cost is too much to be worth at higher levels).

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

Can he heal? Nice! I will have less trouble (I hope XD).
He cannot heal? Nevermind, I can heal myself in some way.
If I had a 50% reduced heal from cure, probably I was not able to heal myself, so I was forced to search a proper class and refuse the party.

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I don't think having everybody running around like an "army of one" is going to do good for this game. If there's anything that binds all the FF games together it's the idea of being in a party and relying on/working with other's to take down a greater evil. This system supports that theme by letting people further define themselves in terms of what they are going to bring to the party. That doesn't mean that it prevents you from doing some unique build/hybrid for solo, for fun, or for some unique strategy for some unique boss. That's the type of customization that was allowed for in the job/subjob system in FFXI. This system is a spin on that idea, it's like an evolution of that idea.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

I prefer this uniqueness comes from stats, equip, personal choices, experience, balancing with others.

However, we cannot do everything: we have 2 important things to consider.
1. skill you can equip
2. time of a rotation. We can equip ...5 different dps skills, but we have to consider TP, cast time, cooldown, in the end, I use only 2 or 3.

I don't like cages. I have played different games, but generally I play hybrids, so I can fill a different role whenever is necessary.

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You can play hybrids in this system. Some jobs are more hybrid than others (RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK, etc.) You can also create your own unique hybrid let's say you want to be a WHM/ARC like Rosa in FFIV, you can do that.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

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Originally Posted by Carpe

You can play hybrids in this system. Some jobs are more hybrid than others (RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK, etc.) You can also create your own unique hybrid let's say you want to be a WHM/ARC like Rosa in FFIV, you can do that.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

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My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

For example I can do the exact same thing as CON magic wise if I equip the exact same actions. So what is the difference in me using THM or CON? The only difference is which AOE style I prefer and that's not a bid deal at all and the only reason I would even consider leveling both or 1 over the other is which actions I prefer which if I level both which I use comes down to which AOE I prefer (NOT MUCH CUSTOMIZATION NOW IS THERE?).

Now also I can equip melee DPS skills on THM as well such as Doomspike from LNC. Now my highest damage output with Doomspike as LNC while using 2 attack buffs and 2 accuracy buffs at 3000 TP is 600 damage solo. Now as THM with the exact same actions equipped, same gear, same attributes my highest damage using Doomspike is also 600 damage with 3000 TP. So the exact same damage and I can attack form range with Doomspike as THM (DOES THIS LOOK LIKE CUSTOMIZATION TO YOU BY ONLY DIFFERENTIATING WHICH WEAPON I PREFER?).

Now lastly we can move on to THM tank role. Let's compare to GLA since people see this as the tank role. Well both get a shield, can use the same actions shield or not. Have the exact same effectiveness on all actions including all enmity, damage mitigation, and self-curing effectiveness. The only differences between these two are which weapon do I prefer and do I prefer twice as much HP or being able to AOE spells. Now there is a much bigger difference here than my two previous examples ONLY because of the HP difference which makes tanking essentially twice as difficult however is just as effective because they take a very similar amount of damage with the same actions equipped and being able to cast cure just slightly faster makes up for taking just slightly more damage. The oonly thing that would prevent THM from tanking over a GLA is if the THM gets "1 shot" which is highly more likely because of the HP difference and that is it. Now let's compare being able to AOE spells which GLA can't do. As THM I can AOE Paralyze/Sleep/Absorb ATK/ Absord DEF in a behest and aggro every single mob and them spam cures on myself and tank every single mob. I can also use Wardrum as THM since I can equip a shield. Now if I have just as many people curing me as THM as people would be curing a GLA tanking this many mobs at once time then I will be fine especially after having ATK and DEF weakened on ALL mobs and mine increased as where as GLA could only do this on 1 mob (SO IS THERE STILL A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CUSTOMIZATION BETWEEN WHICH WEAPON YOU USE AND THE OPTION OF HP OR AOEING SPELLS?).

This is my biggest issue with the game ATM because I can do everything as every class in the same way with the same effectiveness.

Edit: Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

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Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

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Well, this kind of goes with my idea that they need to differentiate the weapon classes regardless of whether or not they add titles/jobs. Differentiating would give bigger differences between combinations like DRK/LNC, DRK/GLA, and DRK/MRD.

The idea is that they should extract themes around these weapons and have the spells/abilities you learn from them be built more around those themes. So arbitrarily, a MRD might give you more abilities for AOE type damage, would have more critical/burst damage, and give you abilities that improve your parry rate, where as, a GLA might give more steady single target damage, give you abilities that maybe buff you in some way (ex. Accuracy/Damage Mitigation). Reworking these classes in this way starts to further define your play style regardless of what role you are going to be performing for the party.

So someone doing PLD/GLA/SEN might use a 1H sword and shield and be more of a steady damage, accuracy, damage mitigation tank, while a PLD/MRD/SEN might use a 1H axe and shield and be more of a criticals, AOE, enmity, parry tank. A PLD/ARC can be like a kiting tank.

Or modifications like Cairdeas suggests:http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...3990#post43990

That way the Job/Title will basically be defining (to some extent) WHAT you will be doing, while your Weapon Class is determining HOW you will be doing it.

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Originally Posted by Carpe

Job/Title will basically be defining (to some extent) WHAT you will be doing, while your Weapon Class is determining HOW you will be doing it.

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This is the best quote ever. :D

My Single Hit/AOE thread isn't very popular even though it would fix a lot of the differences between weapons people complain about. I'm sure SE would implement them differently but again mine were just ideas.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

My Single Hit/AOE thread isn't very popular even though it would fix a lot of the differences between weapons people complain about. I'm sure SE would implement them differently but again mine were just ideas.

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Try posting it in English Forums > DISCUSSION > Battle Content as well.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-AOE)?p=45772

Added to OP:

Unlocking a Title

Since so many people on the forums seem to love the idea of unlocking jobs FF Tactics style (myself included) I just wanted to show how easy/sensible it would be to do this in this system:

Instead of just having to hit some ranks in certain base weapon classes (like unlocking BLM by hitting 10 THM and 10 CON), I think a better idea would be to have a kind of threshold that has to be met, a certain number of abilities that favor that title that have to be learned. So for the same example of BLM, in order to unlock the BLM job, you would have to learn 10~15 spells/abilities that favor BLM. You could also make it more specific and say that certain specific spells/abilities that made up the "core" of BLM would have to be learned to unlock the job. For example, you would unlock BLM after learning: Fire, Blizzard, Areo, Stone, ..., Burn, Frost, Rasp, ..., Poison, Slow, Gravity, and Bio. This looks like a lot of spells but would only require leveling THM to 12 and CON to 12.

This would solve a potential "problem" of having someone level up, say, a Marauder to lvl 20 and then doing the quest to unlock BLM without having learnt any spells/abilities that actually favor the BLM title.

Agreed. Thumbsup.

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Originally Posted by Carpe

Added to OP:

Unlocking a Title

Since so many people on the forums seem to love the idea of unlocking jobs FF Tactics style (myself included) I just wanted to show how easy/sensible it would be to do this in this system:

Instead of just having to hit some ranks in certain base weapon classes (like unlocking BLM by hitting 10 THM and 10 CON), I think a better idea would be to have a kind of threshold that has to be met, a certain number of abilities that favor that title that have to be learned. So for the same example of BLM, in order to unlock the BLM job, you would have to learn 10~15 spells/abilities that favor BLM. You could also make it more specific and say that certain specific spells/abilities that made up the "core" of BLM would have to be learned to unlock the job. For example, you would unlock BLM after learning: Fire, Blizzard, Areo, Stone, ..., Burn, Frost, Rasp, ..., Poison, Slow, Gravity, and Bio. This looks like a lot of spells but would only require leveling THM to 12 and CON to 12.

This would solve a potential "problem" of having someone level up, say, a Marauder to lvl 20 and then doing the quest to unlock BLM without having learnt any spells/abilities that actually favor the BLM title.

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I like this idea but bad example.

CON + THM 10 just became CON + THM 12 (I mean this make sense because there are only 2 magic classes to pull from but maybe not same ranks). lol

Give an example like to unlock Red Mage you need up to Gravity from THM, up to Protect from CON and up to Red Lotus (I think that's the correct name) from GLA.

Or instead of CON + THM 10 instead CON 20 + THM 10 for WHM and THM 20 + CON 10 for BLM (but still based on some action). Doesn't change much saying CON + THM 10 unlocks BLM from CON + THM 10 unlocks BLM because of said actions other than for lore (which I like).

Also another consideration having a total rank level combination (let's go with 30 for example and I'm only familiar with FFXI jobs) to base off jobs percentage wise.

Sorry about WHM and BLM examples because CON gets the core of both in spells and THM gets white and black magic affinities.

RDM is a little white magic, a little black magic, and melee with a sword (mostly) to some extent.
So GLA 10, CON 10, THM 10.

SCH is basically RDM with a little more white and black magic in exchange for no melee concept.
So CON 15, THM 15.

WHM is all healing and buffs a good variety of debuffs, with a minimum of DPS spells. All white magic.
So CON 20, THM 10.

BLM is all nukes and DoTs with a fair variety of debuffs, and a minimum of buffs and healing (Drain). All black magic.
So CON 24, THM 6 since this gets tier 2 nukes and DoTs or THM 20, CON 10 (since this gets Siphon MP and balances out unlocking WHM more fairly)

The mages are harder to balance this way because there are only 2 mage classes to pool from.

I had to base WHM and BLM off your idea because white magic and black magic aren't defined so much. But RDM and SCH was much easier and felt percentage based to me rather than action based. Again I have FF experience in only FF X, X-2, XI, XIII, and XIV so only XI offered me concepts for jobs/title names. SE can choose whatever name or job they previous had before in previous FF titles.

I just feel this is an alternative for those jobs/classes that would have actions only available across multiple classes at much higher end ranks and I feel all rank totals should be the same.

I have a question about red mage (multi weapon users but they weren't specialists in any weapon) in this system, if I used a rdm title with gladiator class would my sword abilities be 100% effective? Making me a "melee" red mage? Then switching my class to conj means my sword takes a hit but now I'm curing at 100%? That's what I'm understanding from the OP. But the big deal about red mage was that its never really been a 100% effective job at anything. I suppose balancing issues would be adressed by dev's, but yeah that's my thoughts.

I guess to me only certain title/class combos should have a true 100% effectiveness in any given ability. Pld/gld should be a true 100 for shield for instance, and whm/conj for cure.

This is probably the greatest thread on the forums about class changes. I really hope this one gets looked at.

Having a heal spell at 100% efficiency isn't neccessarily the same as being 100% effective in a healer role. Your Red Mage might have one 100% Heal, but he may not have a heal-over-time spell, or a damage shield, or a poison cleanse, making him a less effective healer overall.

But unless those were title specific, the red mage could get all the spells a conj would have. Assuming I subbed conj. I really don't know how well this system would be great for most jobs but I'm sorta wondering how they would implement it in game.

You wouldn't be using a sword if you switched to conjurer so your sword abilities that you had equipped would be operating at a detriment.

Yep, I guess I was still thinking as title=job. Sorry, its a great system but I don't see how well it would work with mage type characters wanting variety. Well, I guess only having two DoM doesn't allow for much variety anyways.

Right now it's hard for mage classes, but more will be added eventually, making it much better in the future. I think the implementation of this proposal is also future for these things as well.

There are only 2 DoM and there is very little variety if you use the same actions on both so having a Title would definitely make things much more interesting.

My mind is fuzzy from taking pain killers, but I have an interesting idea i'd like to put on here. Now I'm gonna give you the low down on what its about and expand upon it later. Basically have your title bonuses be able to be chosen upon leveling. I've. Always wanted to be a drk tank and I think it could be done. I've made some pretty decent posts about it in other dev 1033 threads but the only issue I see with choosing your title bon suses is if you wanted to switch from tank to DD, or healer to support. Maybe depending on what your sub class is, changes some of the traits associated with your title.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

But unless those were title specific, the red mage could get all the spells a conj would have. Assuming I subbed conj. I really don't know how well this system would be great for most jobs but I'm sorta wondering how they would implement it in game.

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If they implement a similar system, they will have to rebalance the current classes.
That could mean, for example, reducing the healing or nuking potency of current THM and CON, so that only with a WHM title and the associated spells and traits you can be a decent healer post rank 30. Same with BLM.

For RDM, additional traits, spells and abilities would have to be balanced into physical, healing and nuking, but in a lesser way compared to pure BLM or WHM, or DRK or PLD title for example.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

My mind is fuzzy from taking pain killers, but I have an interesting idea i'd like to put on here. Now I'm gonna give you the low down on what its about and expand upon it later. Basically have your title bonuses be able to be chosen upon leveling. I've. Always wanted to be a drk tank and I think it could be done. I've made some pretty decent posts about it in other dev 1033 threads but the only issue I see with choosing your title bon suses is if you wanted to switch from tank to DD, or healer to support. Maybe depending on what your sub class is, changes some of the traits associated with your title.

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I am not sure if I understand your point.
Whatever the the name of your title (DRK vs PLD), I don't think you should be very good in both damage dealing AND tanking, that would cause balance issues. I could see a potential customization of your title tho if that's what you mean.

Yeah, I think depending on subbed classes title traits could change. Whm/conj being aoe and massive heals, whm/thau being dot heals. Drk/mrd being spike dmg and drk/glad being more tanky. I just had a great idea for rdm, make the title trait be that it cn map spells from different classes no matter the class equipped.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

I am not sure if I understand your point.
Whatever the the name of your title (DRK vs PLD), I don't think you should be very good in both damage dealing AND tanking, that would cause balance issues. I could see a potential customization of your title tho if that's what you mean.

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Now if drk could sub glad it would lose its major DD in favor of a more tank build. The differences being using absorbs to boost stats and drain hp. Paladin would use cures and abilities. Two different play stylesbut using gladiator as a sub is what makes it a tank job. Let's say we assign marauder as the sub class, drk would use scythe and get spike dmg abilities, pld would use 2 hand sword and get the same.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Yeah, I think depending on subbed classes title traits could change. Whm/conj being aoe and massive heals, whm/thau being dot heals. Drk/mrd being spike dmg and drk/glad being more tanky. I just had a great idea for rdm, make the title trait be that it cn map spells from different classes no matter the class equipped.

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Hmmm I am really not sure about this one. I think the title should potentially be customizable, but not dependent on your sub. For example, if your WHM title gives you a 30% bonus to heals and a +10 mind, plus, say, the ability of using AOE on heals, there would still be that difference between CON (higher spike heals) and THM (lower spike, but heal over time).

Any other mage title would not have the healing potency and mind bonuses, not the possibility to AOE heals, for example.

Considering your last point, I like it a lot! Every title does not have to work the same way. It would add to the fun of playing different titles.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Now if drk could sub glad it would lose its major DD in favor of a more tank build. The differences being using absorbs to boost stats and drain hp. Paladin would use cures and abilities. Two different play stylesbut using gladiator as a sub is what makes it a tank job. Let's say we assign marauder as the sub class, drk would use scythe and get spike dmg abilities, pld would use 2 hand sword and get the same.

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Yup I think it's the essence of the "title" system.
I can see playing DRK/THM also with all the absorbs and spikes, plus the feeling of this class would be even darker lol

But if the traits don't change, you run into the cookie cutter builds. If traits change depends on sub, you could keep the armoury system to switch from DD to tank on the fly. Now, if you have to customize traits yourself it would be sorta annoying to have to recustomize yourself every time you changed play styles.

Also, traits for titles could include spells (albeit minor ones) that could be kept regardless of assigned class. Drk geting absorbs. Blm getting ele spells. It could work certainly for minor class abilities too, thief getting pug's steal, etc. Etc.