The WOL and Mass Murder

The WoL is just another person who does what they think is right.
The concept of being 'Heroes' is not really true, except to the puplic. We help where we can and want to, killing does involve that.

While one side sees us as 'Heroes', the other sees us a an enemy, no worse, as the Antagonist of thier story.
Its part of the story and we cant save everyoner without sacrificing others of fight those who are in our way and dont change thier ways.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Assuming that FFXIV runs that far, is it really murder in war? It's not like the WoL is going out and seeking things to kill (in MSQ, that is). I highly doubt that the WoL is going to end up like the Warriors of Darkness. And it isn't as if story-wise, the WoL cares about politics. Why should we be held accountable when it's the Eorzean Alliance and various factions throughout that pointed us, the gun, at particular enemies and shot it?

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War is just state sanctioned murder. Do whatever mental gymnastics you need to sleep at night but at the end of the day you're still killing people all the same. Hitmen are still held accountable for their kills. They don't get a free ride because it was someone else that paid and told them to kill.

As the warrior of light you are a murderer for hire. Or a murderhobo for hire if you're still homeless.

You start off killing anything and everyone you're asked and paid too.

You eventually move up to killing Eikons summoned by desperate beast tribes trying to protect themselves and their territory from the Eorzeans predations.

Later on in Ishgard you assassinate the rightful ruler and help install a new state that supports your Eorzean paymasters.

Then taking advantage of the situation on Balsaurs Wall launch an invasion of Ala Mhigo killing anything that opposed you.

The only negotiations the warrior of light seems interested in is in gathering soldiers to fight in their wars. In Ala Mhigo you recruit local insurgents to be the pr face of your "liberation" invasion. In Doma you find a lack of local insurgents and so you take advantage of the customs of the Steppe people to conscript them into your wars and in doing mark them as enemies of the empire.

In truth, I don't think of myself as the WoL. I guess cause it just doesn't make sense that every other person I see is one too.

But in that same regard ...

I don't feel any quest in the MSQ for example, is anything in regards to mass murder. I mean ... some of those fetch quests I wanna murder the NPC.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

War is just state sanctioned murder.

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killing anything? i don't remember us every killing any civilians or children.

the rightful ruler? oh yea the one that lied and was part of a 1000 year war that did more damage than we ever will guess we should have left all well enough alone because killing evil people is wrong might as well let them live to kill because at least i wouldn't have killed anyone.

the garleans are on stolen soil and are still tormenting the places they have taken control of, we are in no way killing good people and saying well they are good in their eyes doesn't make it super evil all of a sudden.

morally we are the good guys until we go into the garlean country itself and start killing people there aka invading and not repelling.

you don't blame someone for defending themselves when someone is trying to steal from them/hurt them.

The only people my Warrior of Light has ever killed, all swung at her first.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

The only people my Warrior of Light has ever killed, all swung at her first.

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I like how people conveniently forget this.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

War is just state sanctioned murder. Do whatever mental gymnastics you need to sleep at night but at the end of the day you're still killing people all the same. Hitmen are still held accountable for their kills. They don't get a free ride because it was someone else that paid and told them to kill.

As the warrior of light you are a murderer for hire. Or a murderhobo for hire if you're still homeless.

You start off killing anything and everyone you're asked and paid too.

You eventually move up to killing Eikons summoned by desperate beast tribes trying to protect themselves and their territory from the Eorzeans predations.

Later on in Ishgard you assassinate the rightful ruler and help install a new state that supports your Eorzean paymasters.

Then taking advantage of the situation on Balsaurs Wall launch an invasion of Ala Mhigo killing anything that opposed you.

The only negotiations the warrior of light seems interested in is in gathering soldiers to fight in their wars. In Ala Mhigo you recruit local insurgents to be the pr face of your "liberation" invasion. In Doma you find a lack of local insurgents and so you take advantage of the customs of the Steppe people to conscript them into your wars and in doing mark them as enemies of the empire.

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Sanctioned murder huh? That goes for the pirates abuducting young girls in Sastasha one of them a young Miqote girl crying to her parents asking what she did wrong to deserve her fate, the cultist we stopped in the Tam-Tara Deepcroft. Perhaps we could have turned a blind eye to Ifrit tempering people, you can still see their black eyes and ashen skin in Thanaln should you want to be reminded of what you didn't stop. Look at what the Dark Knight represents and the corruption run rampant before we got there.

Dark Knight lore:

In the year 960 of the Sixth Astral Era, a commoner by the name of Tryphaniel the Unshod was granted knighthood for acts of valour upon the battlefield. A young man with an unwavering sense of justice, Tyrphaniel’s desire to champion the cause of the lowborn was undiluted by his entrance into the privileged world of the nobility. It was this same moral fortitude that bid him trail after clergyman after witnessing the robed figure drag a squirming child from the alleys of the Brume. The knight’s suspicions were confirmed when he entered the secluded domicile of the priest only to find him committing unspeakable acts upon the body of the abducted waif. Noticing his unexpected visitor, the clergyman attempted to explain away his vile actions as a form of “exorcism”, but the incensed Tryphaniel drew his sword without hesitation, and answered the babbled excuses with a single, fatal blow.

Rather than praise his heroism, however, the knight’s peers condemned him for slaying a holy member of the church. He was forced to defend his life in a trial by combat, but though he survived, it was decreed that he would be stripped of his knighthood. Unflinching in the face of accusations that he had fallen to darkness, Tryphaniel roared that he would gladly surrender a title that required him to turn a blind eye to a child’s suffering. He cast aside his crested shield - the symbol of his station - and continued his crusade for the commonfolk with no thought or fear for what others held taboo. His righteous deeds inspired some courageous few to embrace the path of the forbidden, and thus the legacy of the dark knight was born.

You need only recall For all the nights to come. (https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/F...Nights_to_Come) Tell that to the liberated comfort women of Ala Mhigo, You need only look to Yotsuyu became after being sold to the pleasure houses in Doma, during the occupation from Garlemald.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Iup6Qhf.jpg[/IMG]

Paint your picture however you want but know what the paint is made with.
Sanctioned murder? I call it Justice.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

War is just state sanctioned murder. Do whatever mental gymnastics you need to sleep at night but at the end of the day you're still killing people all the same. Hitmen are still held accountable for their kills. They don't get a free ride because it was someone else that paid and told them to kill.

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That is adorable. Are you forgetting the part where the Garleans were going to invade your nation, kill every beastman they could stick a spear in no matter their innocence, and organize beatings and rape for anyone who didn't tow the line? They were going to throw away your customs, erase your history, and destroy your religions. But no, no, both sides are equally bad, m'kay you guys? LOL@ at an alliance of nations engaging in a defensive action against a professional army being the same as a hitman shooting someone in the back of their head and hiding the corpse in a refrigerator.

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As the warrior of light you are a murderer for hire. Or a murderhobo for hire if you're still homeless. You start off killing anything and everyone you're asked and paid too.

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Defending merchants and homesteaders, removing nuisance beasts, defending yourself against cultists, pirates, and bandits, fighting organized crime, saving people from being eaten by DEMONS--

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You eventually move up to killing Eikons summoned by desperate beast tribes trying to protect themselves and their territory from the Eorzeans predations.

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Eikons being the equivalent of bringing atomic weaponry to a rock fight. Please note though, that Limsa Lominsa had no choice but to expand into Kobold territory because the Sahagin drowned all the fertile land on their side of the map, and none of the other tribes are being encroached on, so what's their excuse for stealing crystals, kidnapping citizens, and summoning primals? Oh. right. They just like doing it.

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Later on in Ishgard you assassinate the rightful ruler and help install a new state that supports your Eorzean paymasters.

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Later on, we killed another Primal that was going to aggressively expand the borders of Ishgard by killing anyone that wouldn't conform to its religious beliefs.

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Then taking advantage of the situation on Balsaurs Wall launch an invasion of Ala Mhigo killing anything that opposed you.

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Then another idiot caused a huge mess with a primal that would have given the Garlean Empire an excuse to launch another disastrous invasion that would have led to the deaths of thousands of people using Ala Mhigo as a staging ground, so we headed them off for once and in so doing liberated two nations: the first nation being a former member of the alliance where the people were being starved, raped, and overworked as well as occasionally hunted for sport by a psychopathic prince, and the other being a place where genocide was regularly committed against the people for the kinky enjoyment of a sadomasochist.

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The only negotiations the warrior of light seems interested in is in gathering soldiers to fight in their wars. In Ala Mhigo you recruit local insurgents to be the pr face of your "liberation" invasion. In Doma you find a lack of local insurgents and so you take advantage of the customs of the Steppe people to conscript them into your wars and in doing mark them as enemies of the empire.

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1. "Hey guys, I heard you've had it up to here with being tortured, starved, raped, and murdered. I can help you out with that but I need you to back me up, if that's cool?"

2. The Garleans attacked a sacred Xaela ritual and tried to kill the leadership of every major clan in one fell swoop. Even if you didn't need them for your army, they were still going to march west and carve themselves some buckethead giblets. You just happened to give them a target that maximized the damage they already wanted to cause.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Murder is murder.

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Murder *is* murder, but killing is not murder. Murder defined as "The unlawful premeditated killing of another" by Google. Given legal cause means it's no longer unlawful. In self-defense means it's not premeditated.

Man, Eureka needs to hurry up an get here. People got WAAAAY too much time on their hands when they start overthinking this. . .

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I mostly justify it that although by the nature of it being a game, you have to defeat enemies, but if it was being told as a story (film, book, whatever) you'd be doing a lot more sneaking into places and dealing with the guards non-lethally. Binding spells or something.

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You also learn by level 20 and the Ifrit quest that Thou Shalt Not Suffer A Tempered To Live. Thancred has to tell you as much. Once tempered, any race or species because part of a hive mind dedicated solely to resurrecting their primal again. (Interestingly, the Vath non-mind either broke free of their native tempering, or maybe they were immune. A variant on the Echo? Either way, they aren't part of the One mind.)

Any sentient beastman or humanoid NPC we can kill can logically be assumed to be tempered.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

That's never gonna happen because if the WoL is fighting evil almost every expansion, would the WoL really have time for a family?

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I don't know. The torch will be passed to another Warrior of Light at some point. When that day comes, I plan on asking a certain receptionist an important question, assuming Wedge hasn't asked her first. ;)

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Paint your picture however you want but know what the paint is made with.
Sanctioned murder? I call it Justice.

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Like I said guys, perform whatever mental gymnastics you need to to sleep better at night.

Calling murder justice now? Well it's a wonder the empire calls Eorzeans savages. It's certainly how barbarians define "justice".

Look guys, right and wrong is one in the same. It's how you perceive it, that makes the difference.

Man, everyone is like "war is bad and people are bad for fighting".
*sigh*
Lemme put it this way, when the situation is kill or be killed, the aggressor has no right to complain when the situation doesn't end in their favor. This is why I feel the WoL has no problem turning into stain, those who sought to do the same to he/she/bread in the first place. People can go on about how killing is bad and we should feel bad... 1. Who cares? It's a GD video game! 2. Subjective morality at the cost of continuing to breath is neither good nor evil. It's retarded. 3. Subjective morality in general is a testament to human stupidity.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Like I said guys, perform whatever mental gymnastics you need to to sleep better at night.

Calling murder justice now? Well it's a wonder the empire calls Eorzeans savages. It's certainly how barbarians define "justice".

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I have many regrets that may haunt my dreams were I in this world, failure to protect those in need, failure to act when needed, failure to save my friends, failure to live up to the hope trusted to me. Killing monsters? No, not for that, never that. To crush your enemies VII 175,063/ 200,000. Line up the tyrants, molesters, rapist, slavers, demons, and gods. My sword acts like a beacon to guide the meek through darkness.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

You also learn by level 20 and the Ifrit quest that Thou Shalt Not Suffer A Tempered To Live. Thancred has to tell you as much. Once tempered, any race or species because part of a hive mind dedicated solely to resurrecting their primal again. (Interestingly, the Vath non-mind either broke free of their native tempering, or maybe they were immune. A variant on the Echo? Either way, they aren't part of the One mind.)

Any sentient beastman or humanoid NPC we can kill can logically be assumed to be tempered.

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I belive the One Mind is supposed to be something specific to the Vath that on its own has nothing to do with Ravana tempering, BUT if you are tempered by him you also become part of the One Mind. Of course there is the possibility that the no-mind Vath might hold atleast part of the key to finally getting a cure for tempering. I think thats something about 98% of WoL can agree is worth fighting for.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Like I said guys, perform whatever mental gymnastics you need to to sleep better at night.

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it's not about giving excuses that let me sleep at night its about hearing peoples opinions and having a discussion.

we are talking about fictional situations/events, chances are most people here have never killed someone.

saying *mental gymnastics and whatever helps you sleep* only shows us you are against killing at all but not why.

why would you if a war broke loose and enemy soldiers stormed your house and tried to kill you would you be like OK kill me.

the game does a good job at keeping us in a role that makes it easy to do what we do but not be at complete fault for what is happening just being one piece in the whole situation.

I read most of the thread on my phone at work, but am only replying now.

I think that some people are confusing “killing” with “murder”. They are not one and the same. Speaking only for myself, I have a distrust for those who try to say they are the same, because to me that smacks of an attempt to rob me of my right to self defense.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Like I said guys, perform whatever mental gymnastics you need to to sleep better at night.

Calling murder justice now? Well it's a wonder the empire calls Eorzeans savages. It's certainly how barbarians define "justice".

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*sigh* It appears you are the one doing all the mental gymnastics here. Certainly, I don't see the WoL portrayed as a murderer in any of the story I've played through. We are consistently shown to be acting in self-defence or the defense of others. If the violence in game feels wrong, and is causing you sleepless nights* , then this is not the game for you.

*apparently, since you brought it up.

No. Save that naive hand-wringing for a Superman comic.

No one has any reason to fear the Warrior of Light and it'd be silly to try to hamfist one in there at this point. This isn't really a story about shades of grey, the villains tend to be cartoonishly evil. I can't imagine why anyone would care.

https://media.giphy.com/media/2wVwHD...pdqW/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Drakkaelus

No. Save that naive hand-wringing for a Superman comic.

No one has any reason to fear the Warrior of Light and it'd be silly to try to hamfist one in there at this point. This isn't really a story about shades of grey, the villains tend to be cartoonishly evil. I can't imagine why anyone would care.

https://media.giphy.com/media/2wVwHD...pdqW/giphy.gif

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Imagine we found a way to un-temper people. How many people whos loved ones we killed because they were "irredeemable" would be VERY mad at us?

We are this worlds equivalent of a WMD, and a figure of high influence at this point in the story. Everyone wants us in their thrall and, as in the real world, some would just want us out of the picture entirely if they cannot have us on their side.

I don't think this is an entirely impossible thread, and it'd be a change of pace not to be the paragon for a while.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I don't think this is an entirely impossible thread, and it'd be a change of pace not to be the paragon for a while.

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nothing is impossible in the world of imagination!

but that doesn't mean we can't flush through the ideas and see if we could find a good way to do it without being some lame dc/marvel cop out.

like people keep bring up major powers going against us and the question is WHO? we literally know all the people in charge and their next top twos

uldah wouldn't side against us, nanamo is on our side so is raubhan and pipen then you have the merchant chairs who only care about money so killing us is a waste of time also we are great friends with godbert givings us points there

gridania is a peaceful country who is all about the elements and their own land that turning on us would be waaaaay out of their league plus also once again we have it big with the leader and moogles

limsa once again meryle can't think how to spell it properly already felt ashamed for abandoning us once that the chances of her turning on us is pretty slim also.

othard i mean come on you have 3 areas here ruby sea a neutral zone that hates the empire and only cares what people do to the point of hustling some money
then you have the steppe which we have it in (At least til the next leader bout) with the lead clan were they don't question us and last you have doma which we literally saved like twice now once with refugees and then with thier home town and we have hit big with hien and the next top two

kugane is a neutral zone that even the empire has to follow the rules where politics aren't allowed other than negotiations fighting prohibited

ishgard we are friends with big boy number one maybe not the council thingy they have but everything is decided through trial by combat which we win, dragons side with us as we shown we are strong enough to fight them and win (which earned respect) and ended nidhogs reign of terror giving both them and the ishgards a future with less death and war.

ala mhigo we freed them like the domans and our own friend is currently in charge of so once again they won't turn plus we fought hand in hand to get it back even freed a slave wolf pack turning them on the empire.

only place left i can think of is whiner shire and moar drama which is adventurer capital/goblin strong hold and rowena/ the orphans which we are all good friends with.

the idea of people just flat out fearing us for no reason people who have seen our sacrifices and struggles it just makes no sense.


someone did bring up Jeanne d'ark which did some much for their people then got burned at the stake but it wasn't all the people it was the church that caused it also.

WoL has never harmed innocents, and pretty much every death brought upon by our hands has been someone who was plotting to go full genocide, or someone who has already caused the death of many innocents. So "being held accountable", doesn't make much sense to me. Unless we've done things that have accidentally caused the death of innocents, which so far we haven't, there really isn't anything to be accountable for. However, I will say that you make a very interesting point about admiration turning into fear. The WoL is famed in Eorzea for their countless acts of heroism and conquering of evil obstacles. Even in the face of what seemed impossible, we have prevailed, and the people have praised us for it. But when do people start to think about the fact that there literally hasn't been an opponent we've lost to, and how terrifying that is? We have the power to bring down armies, gods... yet no one seems to have a doubt in their mind about our intentions. I suppose maybe they think that if we were to use our power for evil, we would have done so already? The WoL has been offered several opportunities to join the "dark side", and rejected it each time...

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Imagine we found a way to un-temper people. How many people whos loved ones we killed because they were "irredeemable" would be VERY mad at us?

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That's a very poor analogy - it's like saying if a cure for cancer was found and then demanding all the doctors of the world be charged with murder because "they didn't implement it until now!" Cures are not retroactive. Yes we lament that "if only that was available to us back then!", but we don't then blame them for "not having it then to save them!"

Also, tempering can't be cured because of how it works, from what I understand it works by the Primal actually overwriting a mortal's own aether with the Primal's, effectively they're replacing the mortal's soul with part of the Primal's soul. So, in a way, a tempered is sadly, already dead, their body is still alive, but their mind, their soul, their will is gone, replaced with a Primal's will. So, it's terrible, but executing a tempered is the only means available.

Sastasha HM showed clearly what happens when a tempered is over-tempered, they start to mutate into forms resembling that Primal and become literal monsters. Tempering isn't just brainwashing, it's a horrifying act that erases a person's free will and effectively their soul and replaces it with that of a Primal.

So sadly between keeping a tempered alive (who has no hope of returning to the person they once were) and thus empowering the Primal who tempered them and the result of causing more suffering, or ending that tempered's life and denying the Primal of power in order to save countless lives, executing tempered is the least abhorrent choice.

I haven't murdered anyone. I have killed people who tried to kill me first, plus I'm the main character. I'm ALWAYS correct unless the plot says otherwise and even then I'll be proven correct cause the plot will make me go and kill who said I wasn't correct. None of the NPCs will fear me unless it's to be said by plot. My point is the WoL doesn't comit mas murder. all who have died to my tekken fist were people who tried to take over the world or something to that effect and needed to be put down. That or were death bringing gods and uyeah.We don't go around killing men women and kiddos cause we're bored. :c

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

but that doesn't mean we can't flush through the ideas and see if we could find a good way to do it without being some lame dc/marvel cop out.

like people keep bring up major powers going against us and the question is WHO? we literally know all the people in charge and their next top twos

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Each leader has their own reason for liking us and considers us a friend and hero. However if the perception of us were changed , They'd would definitely turn against us to protect their cities. Say the seedseers received visions of us unbalancing nature or destroying the world around gridania. Lolorito also isn't our friend no matter how much he's helped us, and he's not only powerful but he's shown again and again if something benefits him greatly he doesn't care who loses out or even dies. Every bit of "help" we've gotten from him or his associates has been paid for in one way or another.

All it really takes to sway public opinion is one "credible" major figure pointing a finger at us. We're a hero sure, but the people in power we've been interacting with have been around far longer than we have. In actual game time I think less than a year has passed.

All that said, I don't think I know enough about the lore to write out something that would turn the world against us and leave us fighting our former allies, but I do think it would be interesting. I've always wondered how we match up against these other "heroes" we hang around.

It would be EXTREMELY difficult from a gameplay point of view though, would be we cut off from all formerly friendly NPC's until we could resolve the storyline? It would be weird to be fighting an epic battle against Limsa's forces but checking on your Maelstrom Squadron in between. I think if any sort of "we're the badguys now" line was implemented it would have to be a new area, as losing access to old areas , even temporarily , wouldn't be worth the story.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

That's a very poor analogy - it's like saying if a cure for cancer was found and then demanding all the doctors of the world be charged with murder because "they didn't implement it until now!" Cures are not retroactive. Yes we lament that "if only that was available to us back then!", but we don't then blame them for "not having it then to save them!"

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I find people to make unreasonable claims like that all the time. Hindsight is 2020 and people who are already being swayed to dislike us wouldn't need a whole lot to push them over the edge into hate.

And I really , REALLY don't want to get into a "mechanics of the fantasy world" argument when we have people being dissolved into life force and then reconstituted or turned into gods. Not that what you've said doesn't make sense, but writing in something about how the tempereds soul COULD be rescued through a call into the aether and blah blabbity bloop, untempered. It's not a matter of if current known mechanics allow in a fantasy setting, it's if it can be wormed in with new facts.

We kinda already know how it turns out fighting allies at least against the maelstrom as hullbreaker hard has us against the maelstrom's best and we flatten them.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

but writing in something about how the tempereds soul COULD be rescued through a call into the aether and blah blabbity bloop, untempered.

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who is doing this research? the WoL isn't an aether scholar/scientist. who is going to build and fund this tempered Gitmo in the mean time while this research is happening?

like why are we individually responsible for everything in this society.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Like I said guys, perform whatever mental gymnastics you need to to sleep better at night.

Calling murder justice now? Well it's a wonder the empire calls Eorzeans savages. It's certainly how barbarians define "justice".

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The same Garleans who, the first time you see them in a cutscene, Nero kills someone he assumes (It's never stated to be a fact) is part of a group of people trying to liberate Ala Mhigo. That's apparently okay, right? Not savage at all.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

who is doing this research? the WoL isn't an aether scholar/scientist. who is going to build and fund this tempered Gitmo in the mean time while this research is happening?

like why are we individually responsible for everything in this society.

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I dunno? I didn't say it had to be US? Just that something got invented. I'm pretty sure that in a world where tempering can happen that somebody would always been trying to think of a way to reverse it. Try not to get stuck on only that though, like I said I'm no writer nor a lorehound. Other reasons for public opinion turning could be found.

Primo facto: The echo would warn us if were going to kill someone innocent. Hydaelyn is our co-pilot.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I dunno? I didn't say it had to be US? Just that something got invented. I'm pretty sure that in a world where tempering can happen that somebody would always been trying to think of a way to reverse it. Try not to get stuck on only that though, like I said I'm no writer nor a lorehound. Other reasons for public opinion turning could be found.

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I haven't done every quest out there, still ave plenty of job quests to do. You know what I HAVE done? The Amal'jaa beast tribe quests. You know what one of those repeat quests was about? Testing possible cures for the tempered. The WoL is COMPELTELY willing to try and cure tempering, even if they themselves can't come up with a true cure.

If you want people to not get "stuck on it", you should also give other possible reasons for public opinion to change. Just prepare to be challenged on it and try to defend the various ways.

The WoL is “feared” in the same way mooks are afraid of Batman- ie, the bad guys are afraid of the good guy. The average citizen sees us as a war hero that also rescue kittens out of trees, feeds orphans, helps people with menial chores, etc.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

All it really takes to sway public opinion is one "credible" major figure pointing a finger at us. We're a hero sure, but the people in power we've been interacting with have been around far longer than we have.

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I think we've long passed that point. Even if the original 3 cities + ala mhigo + doma would -for whatever reason- turn on us, we know that Ishgard and it's people would bend over backwards for the WoL. We'll never fully get a WoL vs. the world situation anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

I haven't done every quest out there, still ave plenty of job quests to do. You know what I HAVE done? The Amal'jaa beast tribe quests. You know what one of those repeat quests was about? Testing possible cures for the tempered. The WoL is COMPELTELY willing to try and cure tempering, even if they themselves can't come up with a true cure.

If you want people to not get "stuck on it", you should also give other possible reasons for public opinion to change. Just prepare to be challenged on it and try to defend the various ways.

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I'm not in here to write the story though, I'm suggesting that there ARE reasons for people to turn against us. I'm sure people can think of a thousand reasons we could be disgraced and a thousand more why that wouldn't work. I used an example and people started to try and worm out all the problems with it. Ok , that's fine. When someone says "wouldn't it be cool if.. " I like that and am thinking along that thread.

When did I ever say we WEREN'T for it? I said it didn't have to come from us. It doesn't even have to be about tempering. There's all the families of soldiers we have killed (and we've killed a lot), theres the friends and families of the people who died before we could stop big enemies. There are many people in this world who likely don't like us for particular reasons. Good or bad it's there. I don't think the OP's proposition is that outlandish and is an idea that would be fun to expound upon.

Yeesh.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I'm not in here to write the story though, I'm suggesting that there ARE reasons for people to turn against us. I'm sure people can think of a thousand reasons we could be disgraced and a thousand more why that wouldn't work. I used an example and people started to try and worm out all the problems with it. Ok , that's fine. When someone says "wouldn't it be cool if.. " I like that and am thinking along that thread.

When did I ever say we WEREN'T for it? I said it didn't have to come from us. It doesn't even have to be about tempering. There's all the families of soldiers we have killed (and we've killed a lot), theres the friends and families of the people who died before we could stop big enemies. There are many people in this world who likely don't like us for particular reasons. Good or bad it's there. I don't think the OP's proposition is that outlandish and is an idea that would be fun to expound upon.

Yeesh.

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Can I just ask why people with your similar thinking keeps hanging onto "the families of soldiers" the WoL has killed as one of the best motives to have Eorzea turn against the WoL? I see this repeated a lot in this thread.

Especially when we've been killing Garlean soldiers (whom last I checked, they were Eorzea's enemies), corrupt soldiers (boy does SE loooove to go a full mile with those ones) and at the very bottom, soldiers who attacked the WoL first and were not gonna back down until someone died. Tempered? Dead to begin with.

Nowhere in the story is WoL accidentally killing innocents. None. SE has made sure that when it comes to the WoL at the very least, he/she is killing and only gonna be killing people who are either enemies of Eorzea, harms defenseless people or both.

It could just me but I feel like some people in this thread are looking real hard to either spice up the narrative cuz its too linear in its morality or they're trying their best to paint the WoL as some sinister figure. Either way, it just screams boredom to me.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Can I just ask why people with your similar thinking keeps hanging onto "the families of soldiers" the WoL has killed as one of the best motives to have Eorzea turn against the WoL? I see this repeated a lot in this thread.
Especially when we've been killing Garlean soldiers (whom last I checked, they were Eorzea's enemies), corrupt soldiers (boy does SE loooove to go a full mile with those ones) and at the very bottom, soldiers who attacked the WoL first and were not gonna back down until someone died. Tempered? Dead to begin with.


Nowhere in the story is WoL accidentally killing innocents. None. SE has made sure that when it comes to the WoL at the very least, he/she is killing and only gonna be killing people who are either enemies of Eorzea, harms defenseless people or both.

It could just me but I feel like some people in this thread are looking real hard to either spice up the narrative cuz its too linear in its morality or they're trying their best to paint the WoL as some sinister figure. Either way, it just screams boredom to me.

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I use it as an example because I've experienced that narrative in many stories I've read or watched and it easily comes to mind. Generally your family , whether you're a "good" person or not, values your life over nearly anyone elses. It's a very easy link and a super common trope to invoke revenge or "justice" by those left behind as a reason for conflict. There is generally no reason that could be given that would satisfy the equation without the death of the person who killed the family member. It creates a very easily relatable and compelling empathetic situation. That's why I use that. It's not definitive though, just an example.

We don't KNOW that everyone we kill is evil or even misguided though. We get set down and pointed at a group and told : "Solve this.". And most of the time we solve it by eliminating anything in our way. Garleans have shown they conscript people all the time and for all we know the garlean soldiers we've been happily killing are doing so because they'll die if they disobey. We don't ask every soldier we mow down if they'd like a chance to surrender and we've even been shown recently in the story that when we give them a chance they're willing to lay down arms, surrender and even integrate.

Now I'll let go of the families narrative though , just to broaden the possibilities.


We are very powerful. By story and by demonstration we can overcome everything we've been put against. Even gods and forces of nature. We are currently battling against a designed superweapon and winning (I hope that's not a spoiler) . We're also very charismatic. We easily get people to join our cause and somehow have gathered a party of other adventurers who are comparable in power to ourselves (unless canonically our party doesn't exist) to complete our given tasks. I believe this has been covered already but the fear of what we can do if we decided we had an agenda or if someone influenced us against someone else would be great enough to inspire any large power in our universe to attempt to threaten (through threats to friends or other values) us into compliance or even to try and destroy us.


What's wrong with wanting to add something to the narrative though? I enjoy the story, I have my own headcannon as to my characters motivation and actions . Exploring the "what ifs" and "wouldn't it be neat .." moments is a great exercise creatively.

However in all likelyhood SE will not and cannot lift story elements from the forums for copyright and IP reasons. If any of this shows up in the game I'll be absolutely shocked.

And I'll outright admit, hell yes I'm bored right now. I'm at work. I can't play!

Because what you want to add to the narrative isnt even remotely realistic in the world we've experienced in FFXIV up to this point. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Coratanni

Because what you want to add to the narrative isnt even remotely realistic in the world we've experienced in FFXIV up to this point. It's as simple as that.

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I'm sad that you feel that way. It is your opinion though. That seems pretty close-minded to me.

What's funny about this is that if you're playing a lala all this is done by someone who is 1 meter tall XD
https://i.imgur.com/CwYcuxt.png