Growing tired of this Stigma

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Not trying to start something here. I could just be ignorant of this topic.

So if a SAM pulls 6k raid DPS, and a Ninja pulls 6k raid DPS. Shouldn't that be fair?

They both achieved the same DPS amount. They just had different ways of getting there.

SAM got there by using personal DPS.

NIN got there by adding the amount of damage they provided to the group to their personal.

To me, I feel like...why should SAM be the highest DPS in the game period. Personal DPS, yes. But I feel like asking for SAM to be higher than Jobs that have their personal DPS added to their utility DPS is just asking for SAM to be the best in dps - period.

Is it not balanced if they both achieve the same goal, but have different ways of getting there?

---

Higher because they bring nothing to the raid, currently NIN brings smoke screen, shade and trick. That makes it super valuable in a raid while a SAM brings nothing at all. So in terms of DPS a SAM should be at the top by along shot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Faeon

Higher because they bring nothing to the raid, currently NIN brings smoke screen, shade and trick.

---

...all of which are accounted in "Raid DPS".

Separate these two:
Personal DPS is the total amount of DPS you personally do.
Raid DPS is personal DPS plus any DPS the group as a whole gains from your utility spells.

For a person without utility spells, personal DPS equals raid DPS. For a person with utility spells, it doesn't. All that guy is saying is that the number you need to equalize is raid DPS rather than personal DPS. Which... is pretty much common sense and hopefully the balancing ideal of people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

...all of which are accounted in "Raid DPS".

Separate these two:
Personal DPS is the total amount of DPS you personally do.
Raid DPS is personal DPS plus any DPS the group as a whole gains from your utility spells.

For a person without utility spells, personal DPS equals raid DPS. For a person with utility spells, it doesn't. All that guy is saying is that the number you need to equalize is raid DPS rather than personal DPS. Which... is pretty much common sense and hopefully the balancing ideal of people.

---

All good and well, but the player base does not care about overall DPS, that is why we have this meta everywhere nowadays.When you are clearing content the groups raid leader is not looking at the total amount that the group is doing at the top of his list, first is the tank in tank stance the whole time, is the healer dps'ing, the difference between the NIN and a DRG is a 1000 dps difference, must be the DRG he is not pulling his weight, the healer is only doing 200 dps, healer more dps please.

Do you see where this is going? I understand the point that you are trying to make.But in the end, it is the individual is what people are looking at regardless and there own interpretation of what that particular job should do. If the NIN and the SAM had the exact same dps and the exact same utilities, then it will be slightly different I reckon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Not trying to start something here. I could just be ignorant of this topic.

So if a SAM pulls 6k raid DPS, and a Ninja pulls 6k raid DPS. Shouldn't that be fair?

They both achieved the same DPS amount. They just had different ways of getting there.

SAM got there by using personal DPS.

NIN got there by adding the amount of damage they provided to the group to their personal.

To me, I feel like...why should SAM be the highest DPS in the game period. Personal DPS, yes. But I feel like asking for SAM to be higher than Jobs that have their personal DPS added to their utility DPS is just asking for SAM to be the best in dps - period.

Is it not balanced if they both achieve the same goal, but have different ways of getting there?

---

No worries!

A NIN provides support outside damage with Smokescreen and Shadewalker. The former can be invaluable due to the frequency of boss aggro resets lately or WHM generating a massive amount of hate. Another factor to consider is if we swap out the SAM for a DRG, what changes? The DRG's DPS will be approximately 5,400-5,600 but the whole raid now benefits from Litany, the NIN will likely get Dragon Sight several times throughout the fight, upping their numbers and the BRD's DPS will jump 500-600 points. All this combined leads to noticeably higher raid DPS than what a SAM can offer. They can only really compete if an AST feeds cards since selfish jobs benefit more from single targets, though you usually want to avoid padding one person.

When RDM/SMN gets swapped out for MCH, that is another boost DRG offers on top of everything above (And why I think they need to do away with Piercing). Basically, SAMs have to be borderline flawless to achieve comparable numbers to jobs with far better utility. And this is only using NIN, who has weak personal DPS. MNK, on the other hand, actually out damages SAM in all categories while bringing Mantra.

I also dug a bit deeper. The SAM parsed with his 375 weapon while the NIN still only had her 350 crafted. So all things made equal, she would actually out-dps him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No worries!

A NIN provides support outside damage with Smokescreen and Shadewalker.The former can be invaluable due to the frequency of boss aggro resets lately or WHM generating a massive amount of hate. Another factor to consider is if we swap out the SAM for a DRG, what changes? The DRG's DPS will be approximately 5,400-5,600 but the whole raid now benefits from Litany, the NIN will likely get Dragon Sight several times throughout the fight, upping their numbers and the BRD's DPS will jump 500-600 points. You can see this with other parses too; BRDs surpassing 6k. The only way for a SAM to compete is if an AST feeds them cards since they benefit the most from a single target Balance.

When RDM/SMN gets swapped out for MCH, that is another boost DRG offers on top of everything above (And why I think they need to do away with Piercing). Basically, SAMs have to be borderline flawless to achieve comparable numbers to jobs with far better utility. And this is only using NIN, who has weak personal DPS. MNK, on the other hand, actually out damages SAM in all categories while bringing Mantra.

I also dug a bit deeper. The SAM parsed with his 375 weapon while the NIN still only had her 350 crafted. So all things made equal, she would actually out-dps him.

---

Ya same comment as I made about the utility. This is also where problems come in because the player base as I said are looking at the individual but SE balance around total raid dps.then this becomes a back and forth issue and then certain jobs getting left behind. Currently, some groups are bringing MCH, BRD, NIN, DRG this is a crit based composition. So yea I don't know what SE can do about it tbh! but if they do it will have to be something that upsets the current structures

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rita1989

Who cares though all these meta essays you keep writing throughout this thread are completely irrelevant outside of less then 5% of the community.

The problem is with the rest of the community who thinks they are part of that 5% rather then the jobs themselves

---

it's not irrelevant because the content that those 5% of the community are doing is how the jobs are balanced and changed. The devs certainly don't balance jobs based on dungeons and story trials, they're balanced on savage/extreme content. and if 95% of the community aren't aware of how the jobs are balanced, maybe this information is actually useful for people looking to get into savage/extreme.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kukajoo

It sucks but i'd imagine its very hard to simply "do something" about it, you yourself didn't volunteer any ideas.

---

I have said it before and I will say it till the end of time, we are not the devs. It is not our job to make the game.

Iirc, this wasn't an issue at the start of 4.0. Samurai had it's outlandish dps way above the others and then the other jobs cried "buff" because they felt too weak in comparison, even with their utility. Doesn't it stand to reason that if the devs buff our personal dps even higher that the same thing will happen again? If samurai is going to be a desired job in savage/extreme then people need to accept the fact that their personal dps needs to be higher than the jobs with utility. That's the nature of the beast with this game, but few people seem willing to accept that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiteblade89

Iirc, this wasn't an issue at the start of 4.0. Samurai had it's outlandish dps way above the others and then the other jobs cried "buff" because they felt too weak in comparison, even with their utility. Doesn't it stand to reason that if the devs buff our personal dps even higher that the same thing will happen again? If samurai is going to be a desired job in savage/extreme then people need to accept the fact that their personal dps needs to be higher than the jobs with utility. That's the nature of the beast with this game, but few people seem willing to accept that.

---

Actually, this stemmed from people who have no idea what they're talking about seeing huge potencies and crying over it. Unfortunately, the devs listened to them and not the players who scrutinize those details. So hopefully they don't make that mistake again, because, yes, people need to accept Samurai having insane personal DPS to make up for its lack of utility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiteblade89

snip

---

It wasn't an issue at the start of 4.0 but samurais got overtaken by dragoon and ninja for Deltascape due to the raid DPS they provide. Samurai's "outlandish dps" isn't enough to compensate. Even at the end of Deltascape they were outdps'd by monks and this was prior to the Monk buffs. Samurai just gets outscaled by Monk, even moreso now that monk was buffed.

If they want SAM to be selfish dps then make it really selfish.... have the dps bonuses from other classes skills buff SAM double... make those skills damage batteries for Sam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

If they want SAM to be selfish dps then make it really selfish.... have the dps bonuses from other classes skills buff SAM double... make those skills damage batteries for Sam

---

Do you want an all-melee comp to be meta? Cause that's how you get all-melee comps to be meta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AiharaMizuki

Do you want an all-melee comp to be meta? Cause that's how you get all-melee comps to be meta.

---

Not necessarily all-melee. BRD/MCH provide their own buffs as well. Did you mean all-physical, maybe? Though the current meta is just that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not necessarily all-melee. BRD/MCH provide their own buffs as well. Did you mean all-physical, maybe? Though the current meta is just that.

---

Well triple melee where it's MNK instead of MCH is already a thing now. Taking into account the guy's suggestion of SAM buffs, SAM might creep into the comp instead of BRD maybe.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/XV9yj...pe=damage-done

I just picked the first report i found where it's triple melee with MNK instead of MCH. Granted it's O6S but still...

Remove the Slashing debuff from NIN and WAR and make it exclusive to SAM. Compensate the others by improving their damage boost line from 10% back to 20%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

it's not irrelevant because the content that those 5% of the community are doing is how the jobs are balanced and changed. The devs certainly don't balance jobs based on dungeons and story trials, they're balanced on savage/extreme content. and if 95% of the community aren't aware of how the jobs are balanced, maybe this information is actually useful for people looking to get into savage/extreme.

---

Again content in the game is balanced so pretty much any party composition is able to clear extreme/savage content.

The only 2 groups that META is truly important to are world first and speed running outside that if your excluding someone who is good at their job simply because their job isn't "META" then they are just a elitist and it's best to just to ignore and move on.

In the end no matter what they do one job is going to be mathematically last or a certain party composition will be always be the best.

Did MNK get buffed because it was seen as underpowered as a whole or was it just because people thought SAM was better?

I remember people screaming that SAM was OP back in 4.0. I wouldn't be surprised if it was because of that nonsense.

It amazes me how many "problems" exist in this game that I had no clue about until I come to the Forums. SAM getting kicked from raids? I had no issues... OMGERD Needz butt sliderz or RIOT!!!@1! Really? Can you believe how terrible the Grass Looks in this game, its HORRENDOUS! I, I just don't know anymore...

EDIT:
Yeah, I'm not denying that is might be happening but as long as high end raiders are going to look for that little extra edge in the game someone will be left out for X reason. Its called min\maxing and unless they further homogenize the jobs together, it will always be like this. Things like cookie cutter "best" specs in games like WoW, "if you dont play the game my way, you are doing it wrong" Probably better off not playing with those kind of people anyway.

I'm not going to deny that it happens because I doubt the people who are affected are making this up.

But personally I don't see it. I've seen plenty of pugs with a samurai in the party. I personally don't care if there's a samurai in the party. I care whether a person plays their job well. I'll take a great <enter job here> over a mediocre <enter other job of the same role> here any day.

The real question though is whether it's prevalent.

And just like I can't assume it's not prevalent because I don't see it, the people who do see it cannot assume it IS prevalent just because they see it (they might just be the unlucky few).

That's something only SE can find out.

I do support them investigating it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ToasterMan

Did MNK get buffed because it was seen as underpowered as a whole or was it just because people thought SAM was better?

I remember people screaming that SAM was OP back in 4.0. I wouldn't be surprised if it was because of that nonsense.

---

Yes, brotherhood now apply the buff to them, when before it did not.

Honestly, my stigma against samurais have nothing to do with their lack of utility-it's because almost every single samurai I've played with in pf has been terrible. Like, less dps than me as a tank terrible. If my friend who lives in germany, plays on american servers, and has over 200 ping can do well on samurai, so can you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lorielle

I'm tired of it. As much as I want to enjoy my Samurai class in parties, I find myself often being excluded, removed and more just because we do nothing for the party. SMN, MNK, and even BLM can match and even outparse Samurai on damage while bringing a form of utility.

Please do something Dev Team. Please and thank you.

---

The stigma will fade with time as players get better...and when the next big class comes along everybody will jump to because it's the "cool" class. Had a lot of bad stigma towards BRDs in ARR at first because the vast majority of BRDs wouldn't use DoTs or songs. That was annoying since back then I was a BRD, but I wasn't allowed in many parties simply because people kept expecting BRDs to be horrible players and just had their own friends pick up the mantle. Once NIN came out, a lot of them jumped ship which helped clear the waters a bit of the stigma. Though we still had problems until HW completely blasted the bads out of BRD thanks to adding charge times. NIN seems to have lost a lot of bads (from what I can tell) and stigma since RDM and SAM came out (and I see a lot of bad RDM and SAM). You just have to prove yourself to groups that you're worth taking due to your high DPS and wait until the next bandwagon DPS class comes out to clear the bads from SAM and clear the stigma.

@OP

You seem like a fairly competent SAM, at least. I'd suggest maybe a bit of networking could help your cause. Knowing people can help a lot. I had a friend who was looking for a high end static but got stuck with groups that could barely kill v5s. Long story short, last week he joined up with high end group that he met through us when we were finishing up Deltascape, and now it looks like they will clear God Kefka this upcoming week. Complete 180 just because he was around to meme it up with us at the end of last patch lol. So that'd be all the advice I can offer until Sam gets a buff. Find some people that know you are good Sam and just try to network. I mean, even in my case I wouldn't lean towards picking up a random Sam if I had to replace a DPS, but if they were someone I knew or friends with I'd be more willing to give them a shot.

Hope that helps,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

snip

---

I see now, I feel kind of silly now that I completely forgot to factor non damage utility in. But yea, I get the point you were making now. :) Thanks.