DRKs just falling behind even more.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Unleash - Lvl.6 – Spell
Cast: Instant – Recast: 2s – Cost: 800 MP – Range: 0y – Radius: 5y
Deals unaspected damage to all nearby enemies with a potency of 50.
Additional Effect: Increased Enmity.
MP cost reduced from 1080MP to 800MP. Taken off the GCD.
The focus of these changes was to do two things; first I wanted to provide a stronger identity and purpose to Unleash since Abyssal Drain virtually overwrites it once obtained. Second, these changes make Unleash a good enmity generator that can be woven into the basic flow of GCD combat.

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While the oGCD is a cool effect, it now has to fight with DP.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

While the oGCD is a cool effect, it now has to fight with DP.

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I'm not sure what you mean when you say that it would then have to fight with Dark Passenger?
Was that perhaps a typo and you meant to type DA instead of DP?
If you did mean Dark Passenger, could you please explain how it would, as I don't quite get what you mean.
If you are indeed saying that it would then compete with Dark Arts for OGCD usage, that is actually part of the intended design.

It forces the player to have to decide how they want to allocate their MP depending on what extra effect they want to achieve, as opposed to the current situation of "DA everything because +140 potency". Basically the reduced cost makes it approximately dps neutral in comparison to a DA usage, it just differs in that it provides a different extra effect of additional agro as opposed to extra blood or mp (see the rework thread for those proposed changes) and is more spread out, requiring 3 ogcd windows to equal the cost and damage. It's not something you would be using during a Blood Weapon window where you are trying to burn MP as quick as possible with DAs so you don't cap and overflow on MP, it would be something you use in between times where you are parceling out your MP at a slower pace and you can easily trade of a DA usage for a few Unleashes without it being a dps loss.

EDIT:
Just thought of what you might have meant by "fights with DP".
If you mean that it then competes with or overrides Dark Passenger as an OGCD AoE damage ability, well yes it does with the current version of DP. However, as many feel the current DP is garbage or at best very underwhelming, the proposed change to Unleash is made under the assumption that Dark Passenger would get reworked and do something different or more, like what I did in the rework thread where I gave DP a damage down debuff, where they would fulfill different roles and their cost to dps ratios were approximately equal.

On a separate note, it probably still isn't worth using over Abyssal Drain in terms of aoe damage and threat.

It would also be spammed relentlessly since it would be +10 over using Dark Arts for the same cost, with Dark Arts primarily being utilized on C/S and when Bloodweapon windows force a potential overcap.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

On a separate note, it probably still isn't worth using over Abyssal Drain in terms of aoe damage and threat.

It would also be spammed relentlessly since it would be +10 over using Dark Arts for the same cost, with Dark Arts primarily being utilized on C/S and when Bloodweapon windows force a potential overcap.

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The proposed change was never intended to be better than Abyssal Drain for AoE damage or agro, if it did that it would just create more problems with Abyssal Drain becoming displaced as an ability. It was intended to be something that could be slotted between GCDs for the added benefit of additional agro generation as opposed to the differing gains from DAing something else.

In an AoE situation it could be woven between Abyssal Drains, which are on GCD, while TBN is on cooldown, providing greater burst AoE damage and AoE agro generation instead of going for the more defensive route of using the ogcd window to use DA with AD. They end up synergizing more instead of competing or overriding each other.

In a single target situation it could be used as an alternative to a DA that would provide additional agro generation that doesn't require you to interrupt your standard rotation by going into grit or using a Power Slash combo.
While if you look at just the numbers of the proposed ability change, it appears to be a +10 potency boost over a DA usage, if taken with the other changes that I proposed in my thread where additional DA effects were added to abilities such as additional Blood gained from a DAed Soul Eater, the additional resource gain which gets traded for more dps results in the 150pot vs. 140pot+extra resources being approximately equal with the 150pot probably losing out slightly in most situations.

Basically this and any ability proposals that I pull from my old DRK rework thread are a part of a greater whole and meant to work together, not necessarily just by itself. That is why I link to the thread in those posts.

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Originally Posted by wrightofway

You don't have to use it on the last enemy that dies on a pull. Most dungeon pulls have enemies that have significantly less HP than others and even if they don't some enemies will be taking more damage than others due to auto attacks, single target OGCDs and abilities with damage fall off that means enemies start dying before the end of the pull.

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Point, sure, but, I can count on my hand the few times that, in a pull, a single or small group of mobs will have significantly less HP than the rest of the pull. It happens far and few between enough that I still don't see it worth using.

Also to clarify, I never said on the last enemy of the pull. In cases like you said, yes a mob can be focused down before the others. But by then that's one less enemy hitting you, less HP you'll be losing, and simply more MP gained to be used to DA another syphon/soul attack. It's still only going to be used at the tail end of a pull, by which point it's purpose is not needed.

Yoshi P said he doesn't understand why people aren't playing Drk anymore lol it's like...really? You don't know why? It's becoming an apparent issue across ALL the forums and even bleeding out on FFlogs

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21#class=Tanks

Drks are gonna continue to fall behind every week in Sigma Savage as War/Pld gets even stronger.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Yoshi P said he doesn't understand why people aren't playing Drk anymore lol it's like...really? You don't know why?

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lol he actually said that?

DRK has less defense, less damage, less selfheal, less utility, less enmity generation and appararently less burst than any other tank. the only thing DRK is top is in having useless skills (while he already has the least skills of all tanks).

and then we have this not thought out gameplay on top of it...

DRK needs a COMPLETE rework. and he doesn't even understand why people don't play the class anymore.... sigh...

Being able to cast abyssal drain and 1-2-3 combo would be the best thing to ever happen with DRK. :<

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Originally Posted by Awful

Yoshi P said he doesn't understand why people aren't playing Drk anymore lol it's like...really? You don't know why? It's becoming an apparent issue across ALL the forums and even bleeding out on FFlogs

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21#class=Tanks

Drks are gonna continue to fall behind every week in Sigma Savage as War/Pld gets even stronger.

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Can you link your source?

So, thinking on it some more, people have mentioned giving DRK the "AoE reprisal" as we currently lack an AoE version. (Most likely in DP in place of its blind)

But something DRK sort of has over PLD/WAR, depending on how you look at it, is that its tank stance have instant mitigation over WAR, but doesnt require a GCD for its "DPS stance" unlike PLD.
(More of a middle ground really)

So one way to enhance this, is to make a proc/trigger to make the GCD of Grit 2s or maybe even 1.5s
You still need it to take up the GCD, to not just be a copy of WAR, but make a lesser ability trigger its reduced GCD.
Such as DP, Sole Survivor, etc.

Maybe if the target is below half HP, Sole Survivor also triggers a reduced GCD on Grit. (maybe also a lower mp cost)

Or just the baked in effect of DA+DP reduced the GCD, and the MP cost.

Make the buff last 120s, so if they dont want to go into grit just yet, they dont have to.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Yoshi P said he doesn't understand why people aren't playing Drk anymore lol it's like...really? You don't know why? It's becoming an apparent issue across ALL the forums and even bleeding out on FFlogs

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It's because he's full of shit. He knows what's wrong. He either doesn't care much or has no idea how to fix the monster he's created.

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

They even failed at nerfing WAR as now their burst is even higher AND berserk now doubles as a defensive tool since it forces equilibrium to crit!
At this point they are just mocking everyone who plays DRK.
Like parent's taking toys from their son to give to their daughter then laughing as the son cries in the corner.

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SE never said they were nerfing war. If you recall they said it would be a small buff. Players bad at math were the only ones saying it was some doomsday nerf. But sure, lets just fabricate a narrative to match your salted earth.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

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Originally Posted by Awful

Yoshi P said he doesn't understand why people aren't playing Drk anymore lol it's like...really? You don't know why? It's becoming an apparent issue across ALL the forums and even bleeding out on FFlogs

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/21#class=Tanks

Drks are gonna continue to fall behind every week in Sigma Savage as War/Pld gets even stronger.

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Can you link your source?

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ditto. Only recent interview I found addressing anything about jobs was this. So, sauce?

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Can you link your source?

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Here is the snippet from the Blue Gartr interview which took place a bit before the release of patch 4.2.

Interviewer: Warriors have also been decreasing (in use) a bit.
Yoshida: Haven't they been on the rise recently? I think it's the opposite. I'm surprised that we've been seeing more warriors than dark knights.

It's the last bit of Yoshi-P's response that people read and reacted, perhaps even overreacted, to.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Here is the snippet from the Blue Gartr interview which took place a bit before the release of patch 4.2.

Interviewer: Warriors have also been decreasing (in use) a bit.
Yoshida: Haven't they been on the rise recently? I think it's the opposite. I'm surprised that we've been seeing more warriors than dark knights.

It's the last bit of Yoshi-P's response that people read and reacted, perhaps even overreacted, to.

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Overreacting and taking it out of context, imo.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Here is the snippet from the Blue Gartr interview which took place a bit before the release of patch 4.2.

Interviewer: Warriors have also been decreasing (in use) a bit.
Yoshida: Haven't they been on the rise recently? I think it's the opposite. I'm surprised that we've been seeing more warriors than dark knights.

It's the last bit of Yoshi-P's response that people read and reacted, perhaps even overreacted, to.

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Right I’m aware of that interview. But that doesn’t seem to suggest that Yoshi P thinks that no one is running dark knight. Maybe I’m just in the wrong frame of mind. It would seem to suggest he is confused about why people would play warrior.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

It would seem to suggest he is confused about why people would play warrior.

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Which would lead anyone and then some to ask "Are you sure you're confused about that?"

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Right I’m aware of that interview. But that doesn’t seem to suggest that Yoshi P thinks that no one is running dark knight. Maybe I’m just in the wrong frame of mind. It would seem to suggest he is confused about why people would play warrior.

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Precisely, and it is that disconnect that I was alluding to with my comment of people overreacting.

Basically, as I remember it people read that as well as some poorly done fan translations, overly focused on that one snippet, took it out of context by imparting meaning to it that they wanted to be there; then in the ways of the internet it got passed around and memed, being diluted and distorted in the process and eventually becoming "Yoshi-P doesn't understand why people aren't playing DRK more" which while similar is still quite different of a statement. Heck, I even saw a "Yoshi-P thinks DRK is better and more popular than WAR".

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Which would lead anyone and then some to ask "Are you sure you're confused about that?"

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My guess as to why Yoshi-P would be surprised how many people were playing WAR would be resulting from how prevalent "complaints" and comments on how much more difficult it was to play WAR and how it required so much more skill than the other tanks. It is likely that he and the dev team saw these and it lead them to believe that less people would likely to be playing the job because of it's supposed level of difficulty and then when they saw the numbers it didn't match at all with that perception. That seems to fit with the most with why they may have felt that they needed to make WAR "easier" to play.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

My guess as to why Yoshi-P would be surprised how many people were playing WAR would be resulting from how prevalent "complaints" and comments on how much more difficult it was to play WAR and how it required so much more skill than the other tanks. It is likely that he and the dev team saw these and it lead them to believe that less people would likely to be playing the job because of it's supposed level of difficulty and then when they saw the numbers it didn't match at all with that perception. That seems to fit with the most with why they may have felt that they needed to make WAR "easier" to play.

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And they cannot have WAR be the least played tank or 2.0 PTSD triggers :P

Man, I've been watching twitch streams of savage raiders all day, and a fair chunk of these clears have included Dark knights. I'm not saying that everything is hunky dory and that the job doesn't need an overhaul, but the foundations must surely be firm if so many people are still finding success with it. From what I've seen, it isn't broken, it's just middle of the road.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Man, I've been watching twitch streams of savage raiders all day, and a fair chunk of these clears have included Dark knights. I'm not saying that everything is hunky dory and that the job doesn't need an overhaul, but the foundations must surely be firm if so many people are still finding success with it. From what I've seen, it isn't broken, it's just middle of the road.

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I feel like it is hard for people to see the issue sometimes because Dark Knight is viable for content. The issue is that it isn't middle of the road, it is offering less then both of its competitors in just about everything you would want in a raid. Except in the last floor where dark mind is pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Man, I've been watching twitch streams of savage raiders all day, and a fair chunk of these clears have included Dark knights. I'm not saying that everything is hunky dory and that the job doesn't need an overhaul, but the foundations must surely be firm if so many people are still finding success with it. From what I've seen, it isn't broken, it's just middle of the road.

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If it were middle of the road it wouldn't be at the bottom.

Check FFLogs, 81% of tanks are playing either PLD or War, only 19% of raiders are taking DRK. What does that tell you?

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Can you link your source?

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It was an offhand comment in one of the recent live letters sorry for the late response, it was before 4.2 I just haven't been arsed to link the full live letter as it's an overload of information to sift through but I remember hearing him saying the comment.

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Originally Posted by Tint

lol he actually said that?

DRK has less defense, less damage, less selfheal, less utility, less enmity generation and appararently less burst than any other tank. the only thing DRK is top is in having useless skills (while he already has the least skills of all tanks).

and then we have this not thought out gameplay on top of it...

DRK needs a COMPLETE rework. and he doesn't even understand why people don't play the class anymore.... sigh...

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Yeah I agree DRK need some serious adjustments it's a lot of it's toolkit, gameplay, and how the class fairs vs War/Pld combos as War is just a god at the moment and Plds toolkit is amazing and then some. It's why a lot of the tank community has shifted from DRK to the other tank classes because of these issues that haven't been tackled since SB launch, DRK feels so out of place and we lost so much to gain so little in terms of gameplay, mitigation, DPS, I just hope the devs realize this before they burn their bridges.

Make drk great again!!! Convert to a melee dps and introduce a new tank

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

Make drk great again!!! Convert to a melee dps and introduce a new tank

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No. That doesn't make DRK great again, or great at all.

Paraphrasing of course, but going off the response to the live letter question just now... yoshi straight up told DRK to stfu and go away?

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

Paraphrasing of course, but going off the response to the live letter question just now... yoshi straight up told DRK to stfu and go away?

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yeah basically that, a complety indirect middle finger for us, i hope the official translate show something reddit missed.

His comment about Shadow Wall's timing having to line up with things is utter bollocks when Vengeance and Sentinel are on shorter CDs.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

His comment about Shadow Wall's timing having to line up with things is utter bollocks when Vengeance and Sentinel are on shorter CDs.

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only vengeance have shorter CDs, sentinel have the same but with more mitigation.

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Originally Posted by shao32

only vengeance have shorter CDs, sentinel have the same but with more mitigation.

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Thanks for the correction. I'm a little out of it at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

Paraphrasing of course, but going off the response to the live letter question just now... yoshi straight up told DRK to stfu and go away?

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Basically yeah, questions about Shadow Wall and Dark Passenger were asked about buffing them or changing them and they straight up just said no, feelsbadman.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

His comment about Shadow Wall's timing having to line up with things is utter bollocks

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Basically he is telling DRK mains to just “deal with it”; this “reasoning” is complete and utter garbage. I don’t even play DRK at a high-end level, and I know that...

Whelp, looks like i will continue to boycott tanking over their complete and utter incompetence over tank balance.

Gonna stick to black mage for the foreseeable future.

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Originally Posted by Rosalynd

Whelp, looks like i will continue to boycott tanking over their complete and utter incompetence over tank balance.

Gonna stick to black mage for the foreseeable future.

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No point in boycotting tanking though, this isn't a social issue or a problem that can really be solved through any form of protest other than people collectively deciding to just... not play Dark Knight.

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Basically he is telling DRK mains to just “deal with it”; this “reasoning” is complete and utter garbage. I don’t even play DRK at a high-end level, and I know that...

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I am very much aware of what he means, but I still fail to see the reasoning behind it other than sheer incompetence and mismanagement, perhaps a bit of tunnel vision as well. I mean he commented on not adding utility to BLM to keep their damage up and retain the identity, but then basically shrugs off DRK and all our criticisms despite the fact our identity is essentially "The worst tank" and nothing more.

"Q3: The Blackest Night adjustment for dark knight was nice; however, I feel that the effect of Dark Passenger and Shadow Wall are still low compared to the MP cost and length of the recast time. I would like to see dark knight’s defensive properties expanded.

A3: It feels like we’ve been receiving more requests to adjust the other jobs since the latest warrior adjustment.

We believe the balance within each of the roles are starting to be even out, so we’re currently discussing to see how we can make adjustment to dark knight. Please wait a bit longer.

Content is balanced around recast times of the buffs. So we don’t think that jobs will be strengthened simply by reducing the recast timers. We would like to carefully look into this."



This was from the official translation. I'm going to remain optimistic for the time being

Q2: While there were adjustments for all three tank jobs we still think that paladin is the most efficient of the three. Will there be increases to warrior and dark knight’s support abilities and DPS?

A2: Party support abilities are aspects of the job’s identity, so we won’t make everything exactly the same. Also, we believe warriors are very strong right now.

Q3: The Blackest Night adjustment for dark knight was nice; however, I feel that the effect of Dark Passenger and Shadow Wall are still low compared to the MP cost and length of the recast time. I would like to see dark knight’s defensive properties expanded.

A3: It feels like we’ve been receiving more requests to adjust the other jobs since the latest warrior adjustment.

We believe the balance within each of the roles are starting to be even out, so we’re currently discussing to see how we can make adjustment to dark knight. Please wait a bit longer.

Content is balanced around recast times of the buffs. So we don’t think that jobs will be strengthened simply by reducing the recast timers. We would like to carefully look into this.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

I am very much aware of what he means, but I still fail to see the reasoning behind it other than sheer incompetence and mismanagement

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That’s basically what I was saying it was.

So essentially they are reaffirming what we already knew, they have no idea what to do and are having to look into it before making any concrete changes.
I'm okay with that. Since it means there will be something to look forward to in the future... still, I fail to understand how they didn't catch onto this before now.

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That’s basically what I was saying it was.

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I was agreeing with you in my own roundabout manner, apologies if it didn't come across that way.

The unofficial translation made the explanation about DRK stuff seem way worse than it is. I mean yeah, I'm still a little miffed that they aren't tackling the issues we've been pointing out since SB launch, but at least it looks like they're finally accepting that there are issues that need to be looked into. Finally.

That said, I still won't hold out too much hope. I don't need to feel another wave of crushing disappointment when we get a slight buff to SE potency.

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Originally Posted by Ryan77k

I don't need to feel another wave of crushing disappointment when we get a slight buff to SE potency.

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Our solace here is that he wasn't referring to strength or DPS like he usually does, isntead he was referring to bringing DRK in line with the other jobs in its role. That is vastly different from simply saying "we're going to buff DPS a bit and improve usability" like we got for this patch, and is more in line with what he initially said about WAR before 4.2 dropped. It's a positive note for once, and while I wouldn't get my hopes up for sweeping changes like WAR got, I think its safe to expect some more than what we've gotten thus far. Sadly, unless they decide to release said changes in 4.25, we're still going to have to deal with these problems for another three months.