Discrimination of certain jobs - your opinion

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

It's not farfetched, since there are not many raiders left, like Kaiva mentioned as well - plus, a lot of people seemed to jump straight up to o4s (which means there are usually a lot of o4s groups and less of v1, v2 and v3). Sometimes it's even hard to fill a group on a saturday night. If the active population would be at normal levels, then of course the number would be lower. But yes, I can definitely say out of 10 groups there are 6-7 with role restrictions; which means 60%-70%.
The problem exists, nevertheless.

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Seems odd that Primal is so different from your data center....that's why I find it so farfetched because my experience on Primal is so opposite I would say in my experience 10% of PFs lock jobs on Primal...compared to your 80% of groups lock out SAMs. 80% is a high percentage.

Primal has PFs for farming for like every turn 1-4 every night and most people aren't blocking jobs (minus stacking).

I have been joining groups on and off since the unlock and been watching the PF. Tons of parties during prime time accepting any jobs usually. I've joined like 25-30 groups since the unlock and I see SAMs everywhere. Sometimes the group even ends up with two SAMs. So the idea that 80% of groups are blocking SAM on Chaos DC seems really weird. Although now you say 60-70%? In your OP you said 80%?

I mean its too bad moving data centers wasn't free because you could just move over to Primal and get all your farming done on SAM really easily.

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

That's your choice. snip.

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That is selfish, honestly. This is a team game, I am a team player.

And yes I could play rdm in the static if I wanted. But that would force someone to play sch instead nin or drg. Or some other non optimal setup. So then the whole team would hurt for it.

If you are going to be stubborn about your choice that is your prerogative. Just don't be SURPRISED that others are being stubborn about their choices.

I'm telling you that adaptability is part of being a team. 25+ years of mmo experience. I've herd your story hundreds of times.
Adapt or die dude.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

I'm telling you that adaptability is part of being a team. 25+ years of mmo experience. I've herd your story hundreds of times.
Adapt or die dude.

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Or play the game (emphasis on this being a game and a form of entertainment) and have FUN playing what you want to play.....

Take your "non optimal setup" and leave it in the trash. I've seen plenty of those "non optimal setups" do better than the "meta". It takes skill and chemistry, not the class you play to decide how well you and your team will be able to perform.

Team player with 25+ years experience my foot.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

Or play the game (emphasis on this being a game and a form of entertainment) and have FUN

Team player with 25+ years experience my foot.

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Sure casual is fun. This game is very, very forgiving. I'm playing this game because I don't feel like doing ten hour world boss raids being contested by opposing factions anymore (yes that's a real thing in other games). If you want to low man a world boss in another mmo or take down high level raid you need to adapt to the challenge. Having a non-adaptive mindset is not going to help the person in the long run. I'm I sounding harsh. Ya, maybe a little.

Like I said before if you are not willing to adapt don't expect others to adapt to you.

Side note: I included tabletop games. I suppose if you want to only include digital, then it is only 21 years of experience.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

Sure casual is fun. This game is very, very forgiving. I'm playing this game because I don't feel like doing ten hour world boss raids being contested by opposing factions anymore (yes that's a real thing in other games). If you want to low man a world boss in another mmo or take down high level raid you need to adapt to the challenge. Having a non-adaptive mindset is not going to help the person in the long run. I'm I sounding harsh. Ya, maybe a little.

Like I said before if you are not willing to adapt don't expect others to adapt to you.

Side note: I included tabletop games. I suppose if you want to only include digital, then it is only 21 years of experience.

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The elitism grows....

You still ignore the fact skill plays more of a factor as well as team chemistry.

This applies to tabletop, board, video, card games that require cooperation. Imagine that.
Cheers!

(30 years experience of being awesome if you MUST put years into a posting)

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

The elitism grows....

You still ignore the fact skill plays more of a factor as well as team chemistry.

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Players are not locked to a single job. They can freely choose which job they're going to play. If I've been playing job X but I'd be more useful on job Y, I can switch to job Y. The "skill" and "chemistry" are unchanged, but I've increased my usefulness to the team.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

- snip -

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Very true. I think that this is really a major issue, but is mitigated with people putting together a static group or at least giving people a shot and seeing what they are capable of.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

Take your "non optimal setup" and leave it in the trash. I've seen plenty of those "non optimal setups" do better than the "meta". It takes skill and chemistry, not the class you play to decide how well you and your team will be able to perform.

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Right but people have the right to choose which setup they want to use for specific content. Blacklisting someone bc they want to play as a SAM in YOUR group is bogus, but hey. It another persons group. Form a group yourself if you want to buck the trends or burger king it up.

In 2.0 Paladin was sh*t on by everyone because WAR did more damage. I did not like the play style of warrior. I leveled up warrior to join other groups, but also made my own with PLD. Simple.

This game is awesome in the fact that with a single click of a button my class changes... it is a thing.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

The elitism grows....
Cheers!

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It's not about elitism. The guy ASKED for opinions. Should I walk on eggshells?

I'm sure I don't need to give you an example but for the sake of trying to help the person. Here is an example:
In ArchAge there is a world boss (kraken). It was meant to be killed with like 25-50 people. You need ships, multiple healers, etc, etc. It can be done by as little as 4 people IF you have the right set up. It won't matter how skilled the person is, they can be the very best at X job. If they don't adapt to the challenge and change jobs to the needed set up they will just die, taking out the party with them, it is just what will happen, no question.

True, FF14 does not have anything like that. If that person is trying to be the %100 best at something (Sam) he/she should expect that others want to be %100 best at what they want. That is what the person said they want. I'm saying sometimes you need to adapt.

Personally I don't see any issue with players seemingly excluding certain jobs because they're wanting to run the obvious best party setup. That's a problem that devs created and need to resolve, not the players. However, usually randoms on PF running these types of parties typically aren't anywhere near the dps worth forsaking a class for synergy. A clear is a clear. Doesn't matter how you get it, but don't get upset with a group for wanting to use the more efficient party comps. It's logical to want to use a better system even if the group isn't good enough to make use of it...

I prefer to just run with friends and avoid the drama of the masses.

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Originally Posted by dotsforlife

A clear is a clear. Doesn't matter how you get it.

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This all day. For most people this is the situation they are facing and just want a clear.

This is how I have felt towards anything Shinryu EX and upwards contentwise as BLM sadly. If 4.2 doesn't bring big changes to BLM, I might return to WOW for a while, or play other singleplayer games until they do sort the classes out.

https://i.imgur.com/XAwvpP5.jpg

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Players are not locked to a single job. They can freely choose which job they're going to play. If I've been playing job X but I'd be more useful on job Y, I can switch to job Y. The "skill" and "chemistry" are unchanged, but I've increased my usefulness to the team.

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Yay! First post. Anyway, that's of course a valid argument. But this is not just about one person in particular (Ama) and I'm certain he/she can still raid Savages like every other person, it's a fundamental problem known to the 'endgame playerbase' that a couple of jobs at the moment are behind all the other jobs (BLM, SAM) in value and a increase in their value would be welcoming. That means exclusion wouldn't even be an issue. That's what patches are there for, and we have seen it with other jobs as well - I am not going into whether it was actually a positive change, because there are a hundred different opinions on job changes.

For me, personally, it took a lot of my spare time and life to get my jobs to where they are now. Getting for example a NIN to the point where a good SAM is (or a MCH, whatever job really) requires dedication and playtime. It's fine if a person wants to focus on a particular job or two and as far as I can see he/she is also levelling a WAR - to be able to switch classes I presume.

I don't think the whole 'you should be able to play more classes to be valuable to your group; adapt or die' is getting this discussion anywhere good. It's all personal preferences and has nothing to do with the main problem that got addressed here by many other gamers as well.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

It's not about elitism. The guy ASKED for opinions. Should I walk on eggshells?

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True, FF14 does not have anything like that. If that person is trying to be the %100 best at something (Sam) he/she should expect that others want to be %100 best at what they want. That is what the person said they want. I'm saying sometimes you need to adapt.

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First of all, I wouldn't make the assumption that everyone is a guy. Be a bit more decent m8. Secondly, you don't need to walk on eggshells but you also don't need to be as harsh as you are. And lastly, it's not about a single person getting excluded from some content here. It's about the bigger picture, and the bigger picture is that both BLM and SAM are in a bad spot and need adjustment.
Also, people requesting meta in PF can usually not even pull their own weight, and as many others stated here before some of them don't even know what they are talking about really or how to make use of it.

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Originally Posted by TenguNakata

For me, personally, it took a lot of my spare time and life to get my jobs to where they are now. Getting for example a NIN to the point where a good SAM is (or a MCH, whatever job really) requires dedication and playtime.

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That's true, which is why I'm still sympathetic when someone has invested their time in a class only to have it turn out to be not so great. However, I do think this game does a pretty good job lending you a hand in that regard. Not only do you get hefty EXP bonuses on leveling alt jobs, but in a lot of cases there's shared gear, so if they wanted to try playing MNK until SAM gets sorted out they already have everything short of the weapon for it (likewise for BLM -> RDM/SMN). We can't fix these jobs on our own, so I'm just trying to urge people who are having a bad time right now to try out some other stuff in the meantime. There are lots of fun jobs to play in this game and it can be really rewarding to learn multiple!

Simple: A super optimal composition is nice if you want to speedrun, or pad your numbers in fflogs. For clearing purposes alone, it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

That's true, which is why I'm still sympathetic when someone has invested their time in a class only to have it turn out to be not so great. (...) We can't fix these jobs on our own, so I'm just trying to urge people who are having a bad time right now to try out some other stuff in the meantime. There are lots of fun jobs to play in this game and it can be really rewarding to learn multiple!

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Definitely! I agree with you there 100%. But there is no arguing that the devs need to make some changes. The first job that needs to be fixed is BLM, indeed, but if you introduce a new job and it doesn't work as well as you expected it to work, then you need to see that and tackle the issue. It's up to SE really, not us, that much is right. It's still good to voice opinions, I mean that much we can do.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

Or play the game (emphasis on this being a game and a form of entertainment) and have FUN playing what you want to play.....

Take your "non optimal setup" and leave it in the trash. I've seen plenty of those "non optimal setups" do better than the "meta". It takes skill and chemistry, not the class you play to decide how well you and your team will be able to perform.

Team player with 25+ years experience my foot.

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What if those players find fun taking advantage of optimization and squeezing the absolute best results? If someone sets up a PF and decides to lock specific jobs, who are you to tell them otherwise? They have just as much a right to dictate what jobs they want for their party as you do allowing open access.

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Originally Posted by silverlunarfox

The elitism grows....)

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Yawn. Helping others is elitism, correcting others are eltism, I can go all day whatever people call elitism.

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

I found it increasingly hard to get into groups as SAM

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You can down everything with any job, so your problem is not the game but facing greedy people that wants make the kill as fast and easy as possible.

Then, pugs are pugs, you can expect nothing from them. More you go towards raiding, less you can rely on pugs.

Get a static or a FC suited to your needs.

@Kaldea

I'm not emotional or irrational. I told everyone what I observed - and as I stated before, out of 10 groups there are probably about 6 with job restrictions. Which is not 80%, that's true. I corrected my initial post.

I managed to hit 4.9k yesterday without the meta comp on o1s - so I request to cut me some slack. I'm also not here to discuss my dps with you. I am playing this game since 3 months and I'm doing my best to improve, so don't get down on a personal level please. You are basically also making this a lot about me, when it is not just about me. It was mainly a discussion about the value of SAM, and in that matter also BLM - because it's not any different, even though in a worse spot.
I have absolutely no patience for that, and I am also not agreeing on all of your points so let's just leave it at that :)


@Bobs

What Tengu Nakata said. Also, I am not a guy!


@Raikki

Yeah, I get your point. And also agreed on the fact that it would be easy trying out MCH, and that SE has a good system there with gear sharing. It's just not the solution to the problems.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I can say with near 100% certainty that if you're hiding your logs you are probably not good (not you personally, the fictitious person we're referencing). The effort required to review and hide them is often more than the effort these individuals put forth in game.

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It really doesn't. i registered my character on fflogs and ticked a check box to make it private. job done never needs to be touched again every parse I'm in past present and future is hidden..

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

You can upload your own logs if you cared, but again, most people don't put the effort in, and that attitude tends to directly correspond with their skill. If you only have 2 logs up, and they're both sub-par, it means you COULD be a decent player absolutely. But it also means you're a bad bet. Especially when you play the least desirable AND most common job.

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the simple fact is that unless players are interested in D*** measuring contents posting public logs simply isn't necessary at all.

i also spend a good portion of my play time on ps4. if I'm using my pc for work or something so fundamentally its impossible to upload parses half the time because i simply have none to upload.

parses also aren't gospel fact in relation to the numbers they produce either. the simplest of things can have a substantial impact on the whole groups dps. right down to where on the battle field the boss is... something a parser or fflogs will never tell you.

how many tanks did you see tank sus ex away from the crack in the centre for example. forcing melee out of range when they had to cross the lightning markers. or in v1s a badly placed boss often makes it hard for any melee to squeeze in around it without overlapping there circles..

don't get me wrong parsers are amazing tools when used correctly. but they will never paint a perfect picture of a groups performance. and as such should never be taken as gospel.

in the end the fact my logs are hidden means nothing to anyone. if someone thinks I'm a bad player because i don't parse and upload everything i do, then i really couldn't care less.

To OP you may just need to stick with making your own pfs but also your job choice doesn't matter all so much it's all about your performance and there are some jacked up on coke SAMs who are not even in the 4k range anymore so my suggestion is just practice more later ok into bis gear and maybe using pots as well and

never hide your logs I have some awful logs and some really good ones to me it's just progression and getting better with your dps and optimizing or maybe roll a different job lol I wasn't cutting it on drg which is meta so I switched and am happy I did it because I hate holding anyone back from greatness lol

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

@Kaldea

I'm not emotional or irrational. I told everyone what I observed - and as I stated before, out of 10 groups there are probably about 6 with job restrictions. Which is not 80%, that's true. I corrected my initial post.

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And of the 17 groups currently up on Chaos for o4s for the ones with open melee dps slots they only job restrict to avoid having 2 of the same job.
On average there seems to be about as many sam as there are nin already in the groups too.

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Originally Posted by Chooty

And of the 17 groups currently up on Chaos for o4s for the ones with open melee dps slots they only job restrict to avoid having 2 of the same job.
On average there seems to be about as many sam as there are nin already in the groups too.

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Agreed. Today looks pretty great compared to what I experienced last week tuesday. I also had some pretty good runs with capable players, so PF definitely fluctuates in every aspect. Nevertheless, the problem of imbalance regarding the value of some jobs still exists, and that's what this thread is about.

@everyone

I'm out. I keep on having to repeat myself, and people make it about me when it's not really, and it's getting a bit tedious. :) Feel free to use it for a discussion regarding imbalance, or suggestions for possible solutions. Whatever floats your boat. It was a pleasure talking to y'all! I really liked some of the contributions.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Balance is the problem. They need to really make jobs unique and less samey so they all bring something to the table.

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You know that the more uniqueness you put in jobs the more likely they will pick the other one. This is why we need give everyjob they own debuf like piering/slashing/bleedness/magic resistence debuf etc. or get rid of it. What u suggest is unbalancing even more what we have now.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

the simple fact is that unless players are interested in D*** measuring contents posting public logs simply isn't necessary at all..

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This is simply unfair.

If you don't like parsing and you prefer to keep your logs private then that's fine, but don't make fun of everyone who has public logs just because they have public logs.

I don't want to have to login every time to see mine. I like I can just type my name and find it to see if anything was uploaded and I use it to improve myself. I want to get better and it is easy for me to see what goal I have in order to improve by looking at my best runs.

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

But are there really less idiots on other servers? And yes, elitism is definitely a problem. What happened to me today... made me question why I am playing this game. There was a dude from Odin joining my o1s group, posting my fflogs link and telling me basically how shit it is, and then immediately left saying he can't stay.

I have two parses on my fflogs, one was uploaded without my consent when I was really fucking up a lot (and everyone knows those fights) and the second one was around 4.3k on Alte Roite - still not the best, but I am just climbing the dps ladder to the top (well, I am really determined). It kind of reflected the current environment on the data center.

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I meant to comment on this earlier. Anyone jumping into your PF and posting logs without provocation is a moron. For every raider that acts like a tool, several more won't. On Balmung, the server first Warrior held learning parties all throughout 3.5 to help new raiders get their first clears. He later made a whole FC dedicated to that despite being among the best players in the game. Try not to let one jerk get to you. :)

And for that reason, I'd recommend against hiding your logs. You have a few greys? So what? If you're aim is to improve, carry those greys as a benchmark. The better you become, the more you'll notice equally better players care more about consistent improvement than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I meant to comment on this earlier. Anyone jumping into your PF and posting logs without provocation is a moron. For every raider that acts like a tool, several more won't. On Balmung, the server first Warrior held learning parties all throughout 3.5 to help new raiders get their first clears. He later made a whole FC dedicated to that despite being among the best players in the game. Try not to let one jerk get to you. :)

And for that reason, I'd recommend against hiding your logs. You have a few greys? So what? If you're aim is to improve, carry those greys as a benchmark. The better you become, the more you'll notice equally better players care more about consistent improvement than anything else.

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I got a friend to upload a few more runs, one almost purple by 1%, so I think I fixed my initial problem.

And you are right, there are definitely great players out there - not just performance wise.

IMO another issue with Meta is the amount of players that just assume its either the best setup or only setup to use.

In reality Meta started as the setup with the highest success rate with inexperienced players. Frequently when it comes to experienced or pro level players in most game making these groups you will find that a non meta setup will actually out perform the meta but isn't used by most because it often just takes 1 mistake or error to make the whole thing fall apart. This translates to FFXIV in that people in PF are essentially trying to "idiot proof" their party as much as possible and use the meta with the expectation that atleast 1 of their DPS is either going to be clueless at their job or join expecting a carry. And in some of these cases the person they are trying to "idiot proof" it from is themselves. :P

As for a solution to BLM and SAM being overlooked due to lack of utility not really being compensated with their damage output. This is something that isn't really easy to fix as others mentioned and gave a few good reasons as to why. However something I think that has been overlooked is that BLM and SAM benefit from utility offered by other jobs which makes just increasing potency a bit more difficult though in BLM's case I think they just need a way to compensate for their cast bars as most cases their issue is loss of uptime due to being unable to deal damage while avoiding mechanics.

I'd take a skilled blm/sam over a mediocre nin/drg 100% of the time.

The party finder community is just the worst part of this game.

People having problems with the meta when the whole point of the meta is to present the most effective and/or easiest method to beat content.

When you PF, you do your best to get the best tools for the job and to limit the possibilities of defeat. The META jobs are the best tools for the job no matter which way you slice it.

Sure you can bring the non meta jobs to clear content but the fact still remains that would have had an easier time with the META jobs.

And the constant parroting of "I'd rather bring a good Non-meta Job than a mediocre meta job." Well no shitake mushrooms. The thing is that, at the same time you'd do even better with a good meta job than you would a good non-meta job. This is why PF's prefer meta jobs because ultimately they're picking from a pool of random players. Sure they would rather a good SAM than a mediocre DRG, but they don't know they will even get that, so why open a slot to a Bad-Good SAM when you can open a slot for a Bad-Good DRG which will just, on average, do objectively better?

Do not cry or whinge about the community for being logical. If you want to point fingers at someone, point them at the developers who designed your jobs and made them objectively worse.

Or do this thing were you do really well at your job and your NAME will precede your job.

#inb4labeledastryhardelitistscum

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

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I agree with this. The truth hurts but in black and white, it is always better to take on a calculated risk in PF.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

*snip*

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What you're putting forth implies that the PF group knows how to line up their CDs, knows their jobs intimately, and isn't just sheeping the meta because they think it will magically make them better; as most PFers are wont to do.

Your post is logical, most of what you say makes plenty sense and I support it, yet you still fail to address any of the realities we face due to people enforcing the meta. Espescially when they themselves simply aren't good enough to justify doing so in the first place. Those which in turn expose that these players lack the competency and understanding to support the play styles required by the meta. You're not being elitist, not at all, but you're being exclusionary with your viewpoint and assuming that someone playing a meta job will do better than playing well someone on a non-meta job, which is usually not the case.

Bad players exist, they also miraculously get clears in high-end content and think they have the know-how to do so regularly, when they often don't.

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Or do this thing were you do really well at your job and your NAME will precede your job.

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This is exactly what I tell others who are worried about the meta. Make a name for yourself and quite frankly no one will care what you're playing because your skill will speak for itself.