Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Black Mage doesn't need a raise to be viable. It needs to be able to contribute more to the party in the form of general utility. The reason Summoner is favored is because their utility skills aren't dependent on composition like Red Mage and they're generally more mobile than Black Mage allowing the group to not figure out mechanics around them.

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TBH? Black Mage doesn't need utility, it needs more damage to make up for its lack of utility. After all, they removed its utility for a reason.

The entirety of the BLM problem is that the team have been too afraid of giving BLM the hypercharged DPS that it's supposed to have in exchange for its lack of utility.

That said, perhaps the problem will rectify itself once we get our hands on the Relic sets from Eureka and get the right balance of SpS, DH and Crit.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Could even be standing in the Ley Lines increases magic damage dealt by 8%

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I'm sorry, but the last thing I want as a BLM is other people to even be NEAR my Ley Lines. I already attract enough AoEs as is.

Or people could stop acting like meta is needed to clear anything. Just remember drk was world first for ultimate, that isn’t meta. Play what you want and stop caring so much about meta.

Dunno but if they remove my ability to Rez, the RDM who never ever Rez in those situations when healer is in trouble, bodies all over the place..while my Swiftcast is on cd from the first Rez and leave just me to back up the healers, better start backing up the healers lol. For those RDM who help me Rez <3 you got my love.. its not -all- RDMs who do this, its just rare I get help with back up Rez!


Also: Op if you are thinking removal of Rez will lower our viability in raids..Rezzing cuts on our dps output so my guess is that if we don't Rez, our dps will go up because I know that the difference between my dps out put when I don't rez vs take the time to Rez is visible.

I don't understand how ppl can be so fixated on how to improve their dps but then overlook on how verraise actually interacts with RDM in a negative way.

As I said Verraise dualcasted costs you a 300 potency spell +11 black or white mana and a potential proc which means that unless you have impact rdy you'll lose another 30 potency in the next gcd because you'll have to use jolt 2, in short it kinda snowballs from there (tbh you couild give an approx value of dps to each mana points so the potency los is bigger)

As I said already RDM really nees to stick to the ABC rule and has no other source of dmg outside of his spellcasts and few OGCD, this makes SMN swiftcast ress superior, because they simply lose 1 ruin 3 cast which is about 1/3 (approx.) of their rotation dmg since even while ressing their dots are still ticking and sic ifrit well.....keeps doing his things.

True as some have said you can say that if 4 ppl dies a RDM can save an attempt but that's a thing honestly only if the encounter allows it and I don't feel like saying that savage will keep the difficulty it had in deltascape as they have said their intention is to make raids progressively harder to give a sense of progression, besides we now have ultimate fights and so far it's not that lenient with death
Tbf with ulotimate coil they have shown they care more about our ability of perform against mechanics than simply throwing dps checks at us which honestly is a good thing (well also because with the gear capped you can't be too much strict on that)

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I don't understand how ppl can be so fixated on how to improve their dps but then overlook on how verraise actually interacts with RDM in a negative way.

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Again, we need to see the big picture and not just personal numbers.
Sure, RDM loses some DPS by raising someone, but I think the raid would probably lose more DPS by having a BLM and being forced to keep some of its members dead for a longer time.
So, on progression, where deaths are a real threat, if BLM's personal DPS doesn't compensate the longer downtime on dead people, it's understandable to take a RDM that can raise 3 people in 6 GCDs.

My question is, how does a BLM compare to a RDM when they're both 100% DPSing ?

It's been already said that even we you account the rdps of embolden BLM does more dmg

Also we should not expect next content to be as lenient with deaths as current savage since they said they want to have an increase of difficulty and 3 deaths in ultimate at the same time are probably leading to a wipe anyway
Remember ,while ppl will say that they saved attempt by ressing ppl, ultimate is not lenient at all with deaths

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

My question is, how does a BLM compare to a RDM when they're both 100% DPSing ?

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BLM's personal damage actually beats RDM+Embolden, meanwhile SMN and MCH beats them both. Mostly because on top of Embolden being a weak party buff, RDM's own personal numbers are the lowest. RDM is the actual weakest ranged DPS job right now, but still desires because of its raise.

The power to Raise is not only important to clear throught deaths but also see more of the fight before wiping. Ultimate not being lenient to many deaths just lets SMN's lone raise have the same advantage (if not more because of the smaller damage loss) than RDM's on top of SMN itself having more damage. Sfia mentioned on a discord he tried both jobs and once he went SMN they consistently skipped Twintania's last Death Sentence.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, on progression, where deaths are a real threat, if BLM's personal DPS doesn't compensate the longer downtime on dead people, it's understandable to take a RDM that can raise 3 people in 6 GCDs.

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RDM with 340 gear has about 14500 Mana. From my latest parse in fflogs I see that RDM consumes about 4k Mana per minute (just his own skill, no mana shift, no raise - and yes I play efficient, I am at 96% in that parse).
Lucid Dreaming restores 6720MP every 2 minutes. So without any external Mana a Redmage consumes about 1300MP in 2 minutes that he can not restore.
Raid Boss fights are about 10 Minutes. So RDM will effectively consume 5 x 1300 = 6500MP until end of fight if he uses Lucid Dreaming on CD. So he has about 8k Mana left over.

Raise is 3,6k Mana. So 3 Raise in a Row will be 10,8k Mana. If you do 3 Raise as RDM (not necessarily in a row), you will end up doing no dps for the last 2-3 minutes if there is no other who provides Mana for you.

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Originally Posted by MaloraYuki

Or people could stop acting like meta is needed to clear anything. Just remember drk was world first for ultimate, that isn’t meta. Play what you want and stop caring so much about meta.

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I get the sentiment, but that’s a terrible argument. It’s widely accepted that you can use any Job for any content, but that doesn’t mean players should stop caring about Job balance altogether.

On that note, DRK being in a WF group is irrelevant to overall balance discussion.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I get the sentiment, but that’s a terrible argument. It’s widely accepted that you can use any Job for any content, but that doesn’t mean players should stop caring about Job balance altogether.

On that note, DRK being in a WF group is irrelevant to overall balance discussion.

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Kinda is however, before the WF the general sentiment was that DRK was inferior in everything, now it's more like; ok it has some niche strenght, which means that how an encounter works does affect overall job balance, which means that needs to be taken in factor when discussing things.

DRK is still inferior to everything unless there is a multihit magic attack. Bahamut does have that, but they didn't play DRK because of it and this is still a too specific of a niche.

I have a better solution. How about the devs ignore everyone whining about not being top DPS and let they supposedly selfish DPS jobs do, you know, top DPS? Black Mage would be fine if it did substantially more damage than its counterparts; same for Samurai. For whatever reason, the devs fell right back into the HW conundrum with Monk and now all three jobs have suffered.

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Originally Posted by MaloraYuki

Or people could stop acting like meta is needed to clear anything. Just remember drk was world first for ultimate, that isn’t meta. Play what you want and stop caring so much about meta.

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Why do people always resort to this argument? I wager few here give a hoot about meta. They just want to feel like their job has a niche. Right now, they are being out done by a hybrid caster when their whole purpose is to be the selfish DPS that does massive damage. What your argument boils down to is "screw balance, so long as it can clear things." That's FFXI logic, which led to people blocking certain jobs out of parties for being deemed "worthless." We've already starting to see that in PFs.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

BLM's personal damage actually beats RDM+Embolden, meanwhile SMN and MCH beats them both.

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That's definitely a problem, then. If SMN beats BLM both on personal damage and indirect contribution on raid damage, BLM should be upped on at least one of those.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

The power to Raise is not only important to clear throught deaths but also see more of the fight before wiping.

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This is much trickier to balance. If the only penalty of one death is DPS (Like faiing a DPS check), a BLM with higher base DPS could compensate or, like I half-jokingly suggested before, a way of gaining DPS when someone is dead.
If the penatly is screwing a mechanic, it's more complicated for each job to bring an equally valuable solution.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I get the sentiment, but that’s a terrible argument. It’s widely accepted that you can use any Job for any content, but that doesn’t mean players should stop caring about Job balance altogether.

On that note, DRK being in a WF group is irrelevant to overall balance discussion.

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My point was that people shouldn’t consider a job worthless for not being “meta”. If a player is good enough then the job disparity really isn’t that bad. I understand wanting balance but raise doesn’t fit into the blm job. It’s also been said before they wouldn’t give blm a raise so why complain about it? Any job can get through anything it’s about player skill people who block jobs because it isn’t “meta” are just pathetic. But omg god forbid someone says “meta” is worthless.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is much trickier to balance. If the only penalty of one death is DPS (Like faiing a DPS check), a BLM with higher base DPS could compensate or, like I half-jokingly suggested before, a way of gaining DPS when someone is dead.
If the penatly is screwing a mechanic, it's more complicated for each job to bring an equally valuable solution.

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I agree that is a tricky balance, at the moment the chain raise power of RDM do not need much balance mostly because RDM itself is weak. While SMN's ability to raise only really stands out because the MP issues were fixed and SMN can offer everything else other casters can but better, so OP's point is meme levels of balancement to be honest. While I think Red Mage need damage tweaks, unless it becomes the mage with the best damage output the Raise part of it won't need any balancement really. Its a niche ability. I could justify myself being a BLM over other casters for Omega progression because BLM had the best damage output by savage release which helped us push a few things we otherwise wouldn't for example. I did change for RDM a few moments to use Raises to let us see more of the fight and in the case of O2S clear without figuring how Catastrophe's Longdrop worked by simply raising dead people (we were stacking only 4 to the shared damage). Its funny to think casters were actually more balanced betweeen eachother before they started "fixing" Summoner.

RDM is not in the meta at all. You use RDM for prof, it otherwise it'll just fall behind in dps. BLM does bring absolutely nothing though, and need to be treated specially to even get close to SAM numbers. But a battle raise won't really help this. SMN is too strong now, it's pushing brd or much out of the meta so BLM has no shot.

SAM numbers are also, too low.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

DRK is still inferior to everything unless there is a multihit magic attack. Bahamut does have that, but they didn't play DRK because of it and this is still a too specific of a niche.

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Yes, I'm not saying it's not true, what I'm getting at is that encounters can have some variance where a job can have a small advantage over another ant it should be taken in consideration when talking about game balance.
Some players on high end have come to say that PLD/DRK can be considered a better option for ultimate compared to PLD/WAR especially because on how the final phase goes.

That doesn't mean that DRK isn't inferior in many places compared to other tanks, but as said I want for ppl to be more attentive when they talk about job balance, because imho it's not so black and white as it seems

Devs and specially Yoshida contradict themselves a lot though. While they congratulate and say DRK is fine because it has ultimate clears I doube we will see any BLM RDM SAM MNK changes anytime soon even though they haven't shown themselves in groups doing hard prog on Ultimate. Or any commentary about it at all.

I think BLM could use some utility that also fits to the job's style.

There was some old thread suggesting that BLM should get a "Meltdown" effect which gives a small (magic?) vulnerability debuff and also increases every time the target is hit with Fire IV. I think that's how it went. I liked that idea.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I have a better solution. How about the devs ignore everyone whining about not being top DPS and let they supposedly selfish DPS jobs do, you know, top DPS? Black Mage would be fine if it did substantially more damage than its counterparts; same for Samurai. For whatever reason, the devs fell right back into the HW conundrum with Monk and now all three jobs have suffered.

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I agree, this IS the main problem of game balance

Hmm..I feel taking raises away from other jobs isn't that productive. Why not instead either give BLM a buff making it stronger, or give it some raid utility? I play both SMN and BLM in raiding and def feel that BLM needs a bit of a buff, especially if it offers nothing to the group beyond pure DPS.

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Originally Posted by MaloraYuki

My point was that people shouldn’t consider a job worthless for not being “meta”. If a player is good enough then the job disparity really isn’t that bad. I understand wanting balance but raise doesn’t fit into the blm job. It’s also been said before they wouldn’t give blm a raise so why complain about it? Any job can get through anything it’s about player skill people who block jobs because it isn’t “meta” are just pathetic. But omg god forbid someone says “meta” is worthless.

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I don't think everyone gets heated about meta because they view it as mandatory (necessarily), and I don't think you'd get flack for saying it's worthless. Not explicitly for that reason, anyway. Maybe because saying the meta is worthless is a pretty absolute statement to make. Anyways.


People get so worked up about it because they want to keep a strict and exclusionary meta at bay, as opposed to ignoring it, potentially letting it snowball. Let's say nobody was vocal about how strong MCH+BRD+DRG was in HW (and kind of still is), would Disembowel ever have been toned down? I doubt it. And when stagnation sits long enough, eventually people adapt to the climate. Over time, more and more parties go by that format. Long enough, and if you aren't playing a meta Job, you aren't serious enough for the hardcore groups/progression. Longer, and encounters start to be designed with the top level meta in mind so those groups don't completely invalidate content the same way they would if it were balanced around lesser capable comps. You lose a large amount of the variety (flavor) the game has to offer, and it becomes more about playing what will get you the clear rather than what's fun.

It isn't that meta is so overwhelmingly good right now that things can't be cleared without it. It's that if you don't speak out against it, and even the slightest imbalances it brings, you could end up with a far less enjoyable experience overall. Also, the train's kind of left the station as far as meta not being important, goes. NIN aggro management is such a game-changer that people change around openers, aggro dumps, and rotations around them. Raises during progression drastically change how far you can progress (with a team utilizing them well enough) with or without them.

I sometimes think of Pokemon when people say, "Any comp can clear this." It's the same way people say, "Any team can beat the game." Meta compared to other comps in XIV aren't so bad that it's like a team of Zubats against a Champion. It's more like taking a team of fire-type pokemon to a water-type Elite Four member. You can do it, but I mean... why should you just deal with that kind of setup like it's fine?

BLM complaints isn't even about not being meta. It's about having nothing unique that is beneficial. Not even damage.

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

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No. /thread

Keep in mind that black mages easily do more damage than red mages or summoners, which makes up for the lack of utility. There is also no lore-appropriate way to implement such an idea either way. When a summoner or red mage casts Resurrection or Verraise, it's because the healers can't due to a lack of time or MP. Just because a job is capable of a thing doesn't mean it's realistic to have them always use that thing. Also, if you're so concerned about your parse, I recommend you play a different game.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

No. /thread

Keep in mind that black mages easily do more damage than red mages or summoners, which makes up for the lack of utility.

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They should. The problem is, at least in BLM v SMN, they don't. Summoners demolish Black Mage in every fight this tier.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

They should. The problem is, at least in BLM v SMN, they don't. Summoners demolish Black Mage in every fight this tier.

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Fair point. Then that's what I would have fixed, rather than violating the lore. Giving black mages the equivalent of a Raise spell would only lower their DPS further, making them even less useful.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Fair point. Then that's what I would have fixed, rather than violating the lore. Giving black mages the equivalent of a Raise spell would only lower their DPS further, making them even less useful.

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I completely agree with you here. BLM needs a buff. I think RDM needs some buffs too, personally.

Here is the situation of the 75th percentile on current tier, and its evolution since it went out (btw, you can clearly see the effect of gearing up, and it kinda discourages you to get secondaries if they're only gonna be i320)

https://fr.fflogs.com/statistics/17#...gregate=amount


As a main SMN, I would nerf SMN. Ok it's a complicated class but they're way too high damage wise. Devs got confused : we want QoL, not buffs and their work on QoL buffed the hell outta us. Starting to get the hate and I don't enjoy it (+ people look at you silly if you complain about SMN, because they only see the damage and not that QoL is still a longway of being fixed)

A good thing would be to swap BLM and SMN on that graph (plus come on, look at that last bump for SMN it was not justified).
RDM could use a buff to be on par with DRG-NIN-MCH. But not the same as SMN, not because of utility but cause it's still a bit easier to handle (and easier gameplay should not be rewarded with same DPS).

So 75th percentile should go from :
SMN 4900
BLM 4600
RDM 4400
to
BLM 4900
SMN 4700
RDM 4500

I think it's better to buff RDM and BLM
Imho BLM should be aboud 100-200 dps more than SMN after you factor in the rdps, SMN might just be the better choice then when you factor everything, but the point is creating choices not the next best thing.

I'm not so naive to think that by making some changes we won't see one comp trampling all the others when played by the high end players since imho searching for the the strongest comp is what some players actively do

IMHO FFXIV has fallen into an issue that has long plagued World of Warcraft.

Balancing classes/jobs that offer exceptional utility vs those that only bring dps (aka the Hybrid Tax)

When offered two different jobs and both do comparable dps and one offers group utility, the job that offers utility will be picked most times. The only way to incentivize players to chose the job that doesn't offer utility, is to increase their DPS enough that the DPS outweighs the group utility.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

snip

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Easier gameplay is not a factor when they balance, they already said this.

So do we remove raise from caster all together then or just make it a job action ability?

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The only way to incentivize players to chose the job that doesn't offer utility, is to increase their DPS enough that the DPS outweighs the group utility.

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In my opinion, it only works for straight damage utility. If we take the raise utility, we can advocate that RDM can bringer higher raid DPS by raising dead people faster, so its personal DPS should logically be lower than BLM. But, in a no-death run, this utility become useless, so it doesn't justify the lower DPS anymore.

It reminds me of how BRD had lower DPS "because they had higher mobility" in 2.x. Once people knew when and where to move, the highest mobility lost some of its values, and BRD complained...and get transformed into bow-mages :p

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

BLM complaints isn't even about not being meta. It's about having nothing unique that is beneficial. Not even damage.

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The post was in reply to that person's specific thoughts, not BLM complaints. As someone who has been playing a lot of SAM, I can understand the complaints that BLM have, I'm well aware of the state of things.

"High personal damage contribution" is the worst possible 'unique' characteristic to give a Job, because the only way to make it worthwhile is to make it so good that inevitably it's teetering on imbalance, and that's not good for the game either. The devs haven't found something that's an interesting alternative to what we already have. Which is why they just started slapping raidwide damage buffs on Jobs and calling it a day. I don't know, I can't speak for BLM or SAM, but... I don't want to be the next notch on that belt. If they do something, I don't just want to be another comparison to Trick Attack. But I guess even that'd be better than right now.

It's only a bad "unique" trait because its badly balance though. It's not inherently bad.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If we tanke the raise utility, we can advocate that RDM can bringer higher raid DPS by raising dead people faster, so its personal DPS should logically be lower than BLM. But, in a no-death run, this utility become useless, so it doesn't justify the lower DPS anymore.

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Exactly. Balancing anything around the ability to resurrect is fraught with complications. Resurrection, unlike most other forms of utility, is 100% useless when lethal mistakes aren't made, so RDM gets phased out quickly when fights are on lockdown. Vercure is similarly useless from a support perspective when healers aren't dying, running out of MP, or not knowing the fight.

If BLM continues to bring no unique or highly desirable utility to raid comps, its personal damage should be noticeably stronger to compensate, at least to the point where it's consistently competitive with what other, more support-oriented DPS add to overall raid damage on top of their own contributions.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

IMHO FFXIV has fallen into an issue that has long plagued World of Warcraft.

Balancing classes/jobs that offer exceptional utility vs those that only bring dps (aka the Hybrid Tax)

When offered two different jobs and both do comparable dps and one offers group utility, the job that offers utility will be picked most times. The only way to incentivize players to chose the job that doesn't offer utility, is to increase their DPS enough that the DPS outweighs the group utility.

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No offense but that's true on wow up to a certain point, on wow usually you bring what brings the highest dmg and usually you stack that class for max profit (0 lights, BWD nefarian, Spine)

What if Sleep and Freeze applied debuffs to a target when their Control effect ends or is resisted?
Like Sleep decreases auto attack speed, skill speed, spell speed by X% (Effect Named "Groggy")
And Freeze causes the target to take extra damage from all sources (Effect Named "Fragile")

It occurs to me that Control is really the utility of the Black Mage (like how Recovery is Red Mage Utility) given how over the top powerful Sleep is on paper. And DCUO had a neat trick with Control abilities where they also provided debuffs for times when Control was immune or not needed (like a boss fight with only one target). So If I took those concepts and applied them here, it might work.
No one would really care that much if you toss a sleep into an AE pack, they'd break immediately and now they're all debuffed so big deal. And if you were using kill priority single target it works just as well.