Not again...

PLD has so much utility it's insane. To where TBN isn't really a huge utility tool. The real question is whether the other 2 tanks will get utility

PLD will be a prog/newbie carrying tank.
Warr + DRK will be the meta for solid parties that don't need training wheels. Cuz Warr has been simplified by having abilities change with your stance, and has taken rampart from pld. And doesn't need to waste vengeance or raw intuition anymore for cleave stacks.

And now won't have penalty for changing stances.

I'd even say by then it'll be a simpler class to play than PLD.

So I advise leveling PLD now + a warr or DRK (for later). If you haven't already.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harz

Worse than a european sword, really. Far less versatile.

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Yeah i know but i don't want weebs haggling me, I'll add that the metals used were also inferior most of the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cadmus

PLD will be a prog/newbie carrying tank.


So I advise leveling PLD now + a warr or DRK (for later). If you haven't already.

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Look at it this way. Johnny Loveshields clears 1,2,3 weeks after WF cuz his utility helped make it easier on his healers. Average Joe Schmoes who still play to win wont change for speed kills prolly cuz they're playing classes they like and would only change if they liked the other classes and their whole team had it down. WFers and Speedkillers wont change cuz theyll all be playing the optimal speed meta. The only people who'll force or promote it are the "sheep" for lack of a better term who see the top and cling to it without knowing why. Pld will not hold people back a month behind like Gordias.

We don't know for sure yet if they will change the short cast time. Maybe they will just adjust the potency.

And to everyone crying about how Paladins might not have the highest damage anymore, you all need to stop being SO DAMN INCREDIBLY SELFISH! OH MY GODDD!!!

"Utility doesn't matter, all that matters is damage", sure. You can say it over and over, but that still won't change the fact that it's not fair for a class to have THE highest utility and THE highest damage, when the other two have next to none (with one having LITERALLY none). It just makes no sense! Think about THIS for a second - regardless of what adjustments they make, there will ALWAYS have to be a tank that deals the least amount of damage. As of now, that currently means Warrior - a class that has ZERO utility, like absolutely NOTHING. There is NOTHING a Warrior can do to help out any of their party members, unless you decide to take Reprisal for some "yay I'm halping" mitigation. Aside from that their playstyle consists solely in dealing damage. And yet you all gonna cry because suddenly your EXTREMELY fun and rewarding tank suddenly doesn't deal THE best damage anymore? P-lease. Gimme a break.

The only way I'll ever see reason in these complaints, is if they buff Warrior's damage by more than 200+ DPS from what the lowest tank is capable of doing, which we aren't sure will be the case. Ideally, I'd like for it to not be even remotely possible to deal more than 100 DPS worth of damage (assuming fair variables). In this scenario, since "damage is all that matters" apparently, no tank will ever get discriminated against, right?! Except deep down inside, we all know that if everyone's damage was exactly the same, people would still probably go with Paladin anyway. "Just in case". -_- That's the thing that these hypocrites saying damage is all that matters will never want to admit.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Speak for yourself. I didn't roll a job with a two-handed weapon to be out-damaged by a sword-and-board, personally.

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You know what? I'll grant you that.

It makes no sense that an individual wielding a two-handed axe or sword would do less damage than an individual using a sword and shield. As a player who loves his paladin* I have to say it is only fair that the other tanks do more physical damage because of their weapons.

*Dydyna Dyna got her level 50 'whites' this past week. I am so happy. Watch out dungeon queues, here I come!

Because I don't think I saw anyone mention it- If they up the cast time to a full GCD or higher it means there wont be any window in-between casts for an auto-attack, which is an effective potency loss of 100 in shield and 175 in sword oath (granted resqeusghsdrhsdjnsdtr doesn't increase this damage). You lose both your wiggle room for moving around and weaving and a heap of damage too.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Speak for yourself. I didn't roll a job with a two-handed weapon to be out-damaged by a sword-and-board, personally.

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Drg Sam are there for that. Play one.

A lot will depend on how these changes are implemented. PLD has enough of a dps advantage at the moment that it will probably still break even after the changes, which is fine. I think the idea of balancing damage output against utility is silly. Personal dps should be balanced against raid dps boosts. Utility should be balanced against utility.

Intervention and TBN do not boost raid dps. If you want a job to do less personal dps, then it needs to offer raid dps boosts, such as slashing, embolden, and trick. If you want it to do more personal dps, then it shouldn't offer those things. DPS jobs are typically balanced on this principle, and the same should hold true for other roles as well. This was one of the balance problems with WAR in HW, in that it offered both the only raid dps boost across tanks, and also offered the highest personal dps.

Utility is different. Raid mitigation tools such as Passage, Veil, and Reprisal influence your ability to progress at lower gear levels, and should be balanced across tanks independently of this.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

It makes no sense that an individual wielding a two-handed axe or sword would do less damage than an individual using a sword and shield.

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Holy magic boi

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I'm really hoping they just nerf the potency and don't fuck with the cast time because oGCDs isn't even the biggest loss of being forced into a 2s+ cast. It's movement. Even on easy shit like Susanoo, half of my Requiescat windows line up with mechanics. Also, that's a longer time for which you're unable to block.

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A potency nerf would be better than extending the cast time, we're in agreement there. Even if they do extend the cast time you could still slidecast it but let me tell you screwing that up would feel even worse since you'd be sitting there for that much longer only to mess it up by moving too soon.

Of course I'd rather them not do either, but apparently that's what's happening.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Holy magic boi

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*snerk* "Boi."

I'm old enough to be a lot of players grandfather. ;)

I suppose "holy magic" could increase an individual's damage and then you have to consider the effects of one's piety on that damage. Meanwhile, someone else is showing up with all this angsty, dark magic... In the end, I guess all the magics would all cancel each other out and we'd see a bright flash and a melted patch in the carpet. :p

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Originally Posted by DacienSanderon

Drg Sam are there for that. Play one.

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"If you wanna DPS so much, roll DPS."

"Oh noes why is no one playing tanks."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

snip

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Well here's the thing, they took 90% of WAR and DRK's utility away and they're highly unlikely to just hand it back over. I think most DRK/WAR mains understand this and so they're asking for potency buffs instead, or mechanical changes to make said potency easier to output. So assuming all tanks do the same damage, PLD has all these toys that benefit your raid, and the others have... TBN and a redundant slashing debuff... and now we're back to square one. With all the bells and whistles that they added to PLD, WAR and DRK could have easily kept Reprisal and Path and they would have been balanced. But they didn't, and moreover, they no longer even have a DPS advantage so... what are they gonna do, give them Trick Attack clones? Then you'd be back to HW and PLD would be benched. *shrug*

Many people think utility and damage should be balanced, and not just casual/MC folks either, I cite the most recent SOTR for reference.

Syz, I don't want PLD to sit on all of the raid mitigation tools. Between Passage, Veil, and Reprisal, PLD has a raid mitigation move up every 30 seconds. That's double the amount of any tank. Passage on its own is more powerful than either Sacred Soil or Collective Unconcious, which are the big healer raid mitigation cooldowns. I don't want to see Hallowed Ground be used to cheese mechanics that other tanks cannot.

I don't WAR to sit on the only tank raid dps boost. If slashing is 'redundant', then why is it still on WAR? There are 126 different combinations of DPS that you can take. 35 of these involve neither a NIN or SAM. That's roughly 30% of compositions which simply aren't possible with a PLD/DRK comp. I don't want to see WAR have access to the largest suite of defensive cooldowns, most of which are on the shortest possible recasts. I don't want to see WAR have a clear cut advantage in both personal and raid dps, as it did in 3.x.

In short, if you balance raid mitigation against self-healing against personal mitigation against utility against raid/personal dps, you set yourself up for balance problems. If you give one tank a solution to a problem which no other tank has a solution for, then that tank becomes mandatory whenever that problem comes up. Every single balance problem that we've had with tanks and healers over the past two years can be traced back to this type of decision-making. You cannot balance the tanks without treating each of these domains separately. Which is why they haven't yet successfully balanced the tanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't WAR to sit on the only tank raid dps boost. If slashing is 'redundant', then why is it still on WAR? There are 126 different combinations of DPS that you can take. 35 of these involve neither a NIN or SAM. That's roughly 30% of compositions which simply aren't possible with a PLD/DRK comp. I don't want to see WAR have access to the largest suite of defensive cooldowns, most of which are on the shortest possible recasts. I don't want to see WAR have a clear cut advantage in both personal and raid dps, as it did in 3.x.

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You're right, but at the moment, NIN and SAM are probably the two most popular melee DPS. Perhaps I'm wrong, but those 30% of compositions seem like they would be not just suboptimal but undesirable currently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

In short, if you balance raid mitigation against self-healing against personal mitigation against utility against raid/personal dps, you set yourself up for balance problems. If you give one tank a solution to a problem which no other tank has a solution for, then that tank becomes mandatory whenever that problem comes up. Every single balance problem that we've had with tanks and healers over the past two years can be traced back to this type of decision-making. You cannot balance the tanks without treating each of these domains separately. Which is why they haven't yet successfully balanced the tanks.

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I agree in theory. Its just that like I said, SE is far more likely to just tweak numbers rather than add new abilities or return old ones, historically, for better or for worse. People tend to make requests based on what they believe is likely to be satisfied/fulfilled.

Inb4 someone runs in here screaming "HOMOGENIZATION HNNNHHNGGG"

I really, REALLY don't understand this mindset where people believe no job should even be nerfed :/

No, okay, I lied.
I kind of get it.
People with a certain main that is currently in the spotlight for that certain role don't want to see their job changed, they want it to be relevent and good and AWESOME. I don't blame you for it, really, although I don't main any of the three tanks I do main a job that saw some serious nerfing in SB and as it had been amazing in HW, obviously I was not overly happy.

Please undertand though, that simply buffing and keep on buffing all jobs until they're equal could just create more problems than it's worth.

A tank with awesome survivability AND topdps at the same time like WAR was back in HW? I mean, okay, it was a thing to behold, but you can't simply buff up other tanks to its level. It would mess up not only the TANK balance but it would also drag in other roles: DPS crying about tanks having too much utility and them being redundant. tanks being shunned for not stance dancing because they're supposed to DPS because they're able to pull amazing numbers and so THEY HAVE to stance dance, etc.

A healer with too potent heals? Let's just amp up all other healer classes to HW level where they could just DPS all the damn time. Dude, as much as I like to help out and DPS, it gets boring.

A DPS with too high numbers? Well, let's increase potencies and reduce skill costs for all other DPS jobs so stuff can be burnt down so quick you won't have time to sneeze midfight anymore or risk it being over :o

The above examples are obvious exaggerations, but I hope I was able to make a point somewhat?
Buffing all jobs in certain role won't mess ONLY with the dynamics of that role - it will mess with other roles as well, and will implicate that BESIDES the role changes all other content would have to be revised so teams won't be too OP to clear stuff with literally no challange.

... and let's be honest, that's such a minor change I wouldn't even consider it a nerf...

tl;dr: can't just keep on buffing up classes, my dude, there'd cease to be an actual point in like, running content lmao

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

...

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I'm not so sure. The change to Shake it off indicates that they're at least willing to rework existing abilities to introduce in new effects.

Homogenisation only ever seems to be an issue when players want to keep an imbalanced status quo. People always cite the "X has superior design. Don't nerf X, buff Y to its level," meme, but when pressed on implementing the changes, the homogenisation card comes out. Let's not remove the GCD penalty or stance change resource costs from all tanks. That would make us homogenised. By the way, why can't we have a gap closer? Please fix. Okay, now that we have a gap closer, I don't like the resource costs on Onslaught. Why can't it have no resource costs like Plunge except be on half the recast? This ability is useless!

Some degree of variation is good, but you still need to be able to answer the same problem set. If not, you run into situations where you must bring X for a given fight, which forces players to switch mid-tier, instead of simply using the job's skillset to clear. Nobody wants that.

Another point that I haven't seen brought up is the sheer amount of mitigation pld provides while not even tanking. Rampart + intervention, sentinel + intervention, enhanced cover, reprisal, Devine veil, passage of arms. That's more mitigation than the other 2 tanks have to use on themselves. All of this mitigation for a main tank while we off tank. With current hp climbs this ensures both tanks have 100% uptime in dps stance. This slight hit to our individual dps is a nothing burger, party dps overal will still be higher with a pld present. Super savage will also gaurentee a slot for pld.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

SE leave PLD alone, it's fine, just buff WAR and DRK!

They always do this, instead of just buffing the struggling jobs they also nerf the one that's doing fine and end up reversing the situation!

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While I agree with you in what they use to do, we all should rejoice, as that adjustment won't really be a nerf. I don't think they're gonna increase Holy Spirit's casting time dramatically, to be honest. Now, what I would do is remove the Gauge cost of stance changing throughout all of the tanks and not just WAR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

So assuming all tanks do the same damage, PLD has all these toys that benefit your raid, and the others have... TBN and a redundant slashing debuff... and now we're back to square one. With all the bells and whistles that they added to PLD, WAR and DRK could have easily kept Reprisal and Path and they would have been balanced. But they didn't, and moreover, they no longer even have a DPS advantage so... what are they gonna do, give them Trick Attack clones? Then you'd be back to HW and PLD would be benched. *shrug*

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And those times when TBN doesn't break? lol

Such utility.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

I really, REALLY don't understand this mindset where people believe no job should even be nerfed :/
*snip*

... and let's be honest, that's such a minor change I wouldn't even consider it a nerf...

tl;dr: can't just keep on buffing up classes, my dude, there'd cease to be an actual point in like, running content lmao

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I like you. Let's be friends!

I'm with you. I honestly don't understand the drama in this thread. We have people acting like SE is ruining paladins while buffing warriors to godmode.

The changes are quite reasonable. Not sure when they are supposed to be implemented. This Tuesday or the following Tuesday?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

I really, REALLY don't understand this mindset where people believe no job should even be nerfed :/

tl;dr: can't just keep on buffing up classes, my dude, there'd cease to be an actual point in like, running content lmao

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Because nerfing makes you feel much worse than buffing makes you feel good. My viewpoint is not that we should never nerf, but we should avoid it if possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8...utu.be&t=4m55s

Yes we can. All SE needs to do is adjust the content. As for old content, well old content is overgeared most of the time anyways. Yes, nerfing is easier but imo it's also the "lazy" way to balance things. Oh, WAR stance dancing too good? Let's just halve their gauge. That'll make everything fine. Scholar too powerful? Let's just nerf Shadowflare and Bane and their fairy. We can see how well those nerfs worked out.

That being said, this nerf is somewhat mild. That still doesn't change my opinion about nerfing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

I really, REALLY don't understand this mindset where people believe no job should even be nerfed :/

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Okay, I'll explain my own perspective.



Certain things are quite obviously undertuned. These undertuned things are usually unsatisfying to play in one way or another that doesn't just amount to the fact that they're undertuned.

A good example of this is Dark Knight, which has a kit that flows rather well and is pretty easy to use, but extra effort you put in is unsatisfying because you're not really rewarded for it, as the reward you gain for extra effort (Blood Gauge, ergo more Bloodspillers) really doesn't feel that amazing.

An example of the opposite is Warrior, because using Inner Release and going absolutely nuts with the hexacleave combo feels and looks great, until you look at your DPS, and you realize that all the effort you put in doesn't really garner that much of a reward, especially because you need to waste multiple extra GCDs to use that combo if you happen to be main tanking. You can hardly do this combo without absolute mastery of a given fight, and getting targeted by an RNG mechanic at a bad time ruins it even if you know the fight completely.

The solution to the problem with Dark Knight isn't nerfing Paladin, it's making Bloodspiller more satisfying to use, giving greater reward for proper utilization of TBN, or any number of things, really. The solution to the problem with Warrior isn't nerfing Paladin, it's making the class itself easier to use, or at the very least, making it more convenient and consistent.

My point is that the problem with most of the underpowered classes in this game is that they have fundamental design flaws that need fixing and, upon fixing, will likely be far more balanced compared to the ones people see as overpowered. Dragoon is unintuitive and doesn't reward you properly for utilization its alleged "super move (Nastrond)." Black Mage is unintuitive to the degree that its 4.0 rotation is both on par with and far more difficult than its modified 3.0 one. I shouldn't have to explain what all is wrong with Scholar.

There are probably some that I missed (such as what's wrong with Machinist and Summoner) but these are the ones that really stand out to me.

These design flaws need to be fixed before you nerf anything. You need to make classes more fun before you make other ones less fun, else you're just making the game worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

tl;dr: can't just keep on buffing up classes, my dude, there'd cease to be an actual point in like, running content lmao

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Oh! my "dude" you are so right! look how great it worked for WAR,SCH,SMN and MCH yeah look how good and balanced they are, LOOK HOW FUN you know what we should give you developer of year award because you clearly know how balancing work.

Yes you can keep buffing up classes, my dude, this is not diablo, this is not street fighter buffing classes isn't going to either break content or cause power creep because anything outside of individual classes are so easily changeable. People in these forums swear a buff means make the next class the op one, no, they can buff them just enough to be on par with the classes that currently feel good, it makes the player base happy it makes the developers happy and everyone is happy don't need to keep playing lottery "who's going to get nerf/buff" next patch. But because of your great Ideas and views just as good as the developers classes were nerfed and now more rebalanced needs to be done and after this more and more and more.

you should watch the video they just linked above and learn a thing or 2 before acting so smart.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

Okay, but you don't even know what that "nerf" is and you don't even know if the stance dance penalty removal will be a dps increase

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stance dancing buff for paladin means absolutely nothing dps wise, the nerf was clearly stated that it will be a longer cast time and on a mr.happy video also said that the potency will take a hit, so this will mean we won't be able to use full mana on a requiescat window, we won't be able weave abilities in between and we will most likely loose any sort auto attack making a dps loss, but what It also does is making it like clemency 3.0 where the cast time/potency will not be worthy outside of buffed requiescats and you will no longer be able to throw in quick cast when you are out of range because of some AOE attacks, essentially making the class more clunky that what it feels now which is perfect. while the nerf isn't much, nerving pld while buffing the other 2 will risk HW to happen again meaning, war top dps required spot and pld and dark pulling their skin for the second spot. and what we want is every tank comp to be awesome not just war/drk, war/pld. I don't want pld to be top dps I want paladin to be fun which is what it's now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

while the nerf isn't much, nerving WAR while buffing the other 2 will risk SB to happen again meaning, PLD top dps required spot and WAR and dark pulling their skin for the second spot. and what we want is every tank comp to be awesome not just war/drk, war/pld. I don't want WAR to be top dps I want WAR to be fun which is what it's now.

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Man it's freaking weird, it's basicaly what WAR players were saying lol. Actually, I took the liberty of replacing PLD with WAR because it's almost word for word the same stuff we were saying o.o


Course for some, it's only NOW an issu.

Especially the last part, more then anything I just wanted my class to be fun again yet i got told stuff like

1. You don't know all the changes. So why are you complaining?

2. It forces you to be more tactical.

3. You're not a dps, youre a tank.

*sighs*

People...

Irregardless, it's not long. Let's wait until the patch comes out, if it really does mess with the class that much I'll support...you...well...I'll support the class.

Spiroglyph said it best.

http://www.drinkinginamerica.com/wp-...iteRussian.jpg

You can't keep buffing classes forever, dude.

/thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

what It also making the class more clunky that what it feels now which is perfect. while the nerf isn't much, nerving pld while buffing the other 2 will risk HW to happen again meaning, war top dps required spot and pld and dark pulling their skin for the second spot. and what we want is every tank comp to be awesome not just war/drk, war/pld. I don't want pld to be top dps I want paladin to be fun which is what its now.

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You use holy spirit outside of requiescat? I dont know if I should cry or just accept that people are always gonna do stupid things. And you say that but right now the only viable tank comp is pld and pld/war/drk. Just adimit if pld doesnt have a 100% gaurenteed spot you arent gonna be happy. Stop crying. Everyone is going all doomsday and shit for no reason. Pld could do 300 less dps that it is capable of now and everyone would still want them. it's the smoothest tank it's still gonna be tuesday.

To respond to OP, there needs to be equality in terms of dps to utility exchange

Utility wise it should be: PLD>DRK>War

Damage wise: War>DRK> PLD

A good pld can still do good damage and a War should be able to be able to achieve high enough damage to outclass the utility etc etc
DRK should be able to be decent in both, but excel if they are skilled in both.

If these archetypes didn't exist then what's the point of having two handed heavy weapon tanks that hit like noodles and wear pizza armor whilst their co-worker tank is wearing shiny plate armor using The Prince That was Promised sword to slay all evildoers.

Pld in hw was FINE, it just needed more utility and the ability to OT, they got that, they don't need more damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

You use holy spirit outside of requiescat? I dont know if I should cry or just accept that people are always gonna do stupid things.

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Can you elaborate on that ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Can you elaborate on that ?

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Basically if you use HS while Requiescat is not active you are a bad tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Faeon

Basically if you use HS while Requiescat is not active you are a bad tank.

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hmm I wouldn't say you should never use it but it's situational. You can put one in when you use sheltron right after since you regain about 1k mp through it or you just got Refresh'd and Requiescat is not up yet + with the increased cast time looming above us it's certain that we are going to have to use at least one outside of RQ now

If you don't use Holy Spirit outside of Requiescat when you get refresh, ewer, etc then you're leaving DPS on the table. If the timing is right and you get an MP song and a block (or Ewer, or caster MP infusion) you can replace a non-FoF RA combo with 3 holy spirits and still make your Requiescat MP window. That's without considering times when the boss is going to jump or die before your Requiescat comes up.

It's like you have to think about things and not just press the same buttons over and over again because you read a rotation on Reddit... WHOA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

it's certain that we are going to have to use at least one outside of RQ now

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It's a risk and would be the worst case scenario but I'm more in belief that they'll cast time = recast time switch means you'd only get the 5th HS outside of requiescat if you use the oGCD too early while weaving it.
The main drawback in that scenario would be that you'd clip your GCD if you weave oGCD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

It's a risk and would be the worst case scenario but I'm more in belief that they'll cast time = recast time switch means you'd only get the 5th HS outside of requiescat if you use the oGCD too early while weaving it.
The main drawback in that scenario would be that you'd clip your GCD if you weave oGCD.

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That's what I was thinking they'd do as well, guess we'll find out soon though.

PLD have been out dpsing everyone at end game content. Why would they buff a dozen classes instead of fixing one..?

Holy Spirit got a potency nerf from 430 to 400. No increase to cast time. Hallelujah.

thank god its just a potency change. PLD 4 life

A small adjustment to potency seems fair and doesn't change how the job plays. I'm fine with that.