Thank you SE

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

e: Also just read that SP is getting a damage buff? Seems strange but I guess it is our most used combo so fair enough.

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I'm actually relieved they went down that route instead of buffing bb to generate 20 gauge like some people suggested in this forum lol.

DPS > Mitigation guys.

PLD is not going to be worth anything as soon as people geared up and PoA, DV, Intervention, etc. are just gnna lose their function with rising gear lvls.

The buffs to warrior and drk were needed to put them t on top of dmg again, but the nerf to pld was absolutely not because paladins group mitigation is of limited use

for what do you need PoA if your group just survives fine without? for what do you need divine veil? Intervention?

raids are cleared lastly through dps and wha(aka has the most dps) that one is going to be the best

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Originally Posted by Clover210

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This is nearly what I'm talking about. PLDs taking the rejoice for a step towards balance as a personal attack on themselves. PLD severely outclassed the other two tanks, that is fact and SE has acknowledged it. While nerf is simply one way of approaching balance, whether it gets nerfed or DRK/WAR get buffed to hell, it's the same difference.

I've been tanking in this game since 1.2 and following news and the communities closely ever since. I've seen plenty WARs say dumb things like "I'M GONNA MAN-MODE EVERYTHING", getting off on the fact that they were buffed to hell in HW. However, it's been usually humorous, and I have never seen the kind of self-righteous revel in being OP from any but those PLDs.

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

PLD is not going to be worth anything...

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It depends on the level of buffs that DRK/WAR receive. If it's that significant, then yes you're right and we'll be back where we were in HW, in need of balance still.

I really wish they'd balance the tanks like so:

WAR: Base case. "Normal DPS"
PLD: Defensive build. Makes up for lower DPS by taking less sustained damage, allowing Healers to make up the difference.
DRK: Offensive build. Makes up for taking more sustained damage by dealing more DPS.

Mitigation and utility should all just be means to achieve these ideals.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

War and Drk right now do more damage then PLD so this didn't really needed to be changed. Tanks are fairly balanced right now in terms of damage with dark and war doing slightly more dps overall then pld. People were saying paladin does high damage when using holy spirit but you have to take into account the whole fight not just 1 high burst phase of a rotation.

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Wah...? Even if that was the case, WARs still have to do double the work than what PLD does just to be slightly higher than them or on par. Idk about DRK though, I haven't tried it yet

ta

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

snip snip

I really wish they'd balance the tanks like so:

WAR: Base case. "Normal DPS"
PLD: Defensive build. Makes up for lower DPS by taking less sustained damage, allowing Healers to make up the difference.
DRK: Offensive build. Makes up for taking more sustained damage by dealing more DPS.

Mitigation and utility should all just be means to achieve these ideals.

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yes I agree with you.

PLD should enable the party to do the damage they lack to do by themself if they want to go down this road, because group mitigation is always going to be optional if they want the content to be cleared without a pld present, so POA and DV etc. are no selling points for pld

as of right now, I can see pld just being relevant in raids when ppl just don't have the gear to survive certain stuff with ease yet, then it's all about dmg because you don't need the mitigation once you're geared up

pld is the only tank that loses its purpose once your party has good gear or good healers

I for one am happy for the changes to WAR, removing the gauge cost of changing stance will be nice.
When it comes to shake it off I am glad to see they are going to change it, the fact that it will take until 4.1 I have zero problems with since that means they are taking their time and the result is more likely to be good.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

I love the theme, but with how boring it is right now

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How come it is boring? i kinda like DA spam fest but if this is another Low Blow whine thingy then cmon that shit was lame and boring filler skill, its the proc reset that was interesting not the Low Blow itself. With that said i would like to see that proc rest making comeback but instead affecting skills like C&S, now THAT would be sweet as hell.

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Originally Posted by Clover210

Was doing a parody of what I would imagine most WAR's reaction to seeing their main class getting buff and PLDs getting nerfed. If anything it's laughable how you are happy with PLD getting nerfed PLD getting nerfed when it really wasn't needed. SE just needed to buff WAR and DRK up to par

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Pld didnt get needed it got the changes it needed. and I do main war regularly because it's what I like but I do play pld quite a bit and I am maining pld through savage because even with pld not doing the most damage IT'S FKN MANDARORY TO BRING A PLD. Doesnt matter that it doesnt have the highest damage, its in the saame place as war in 3.x. any and every serious group will have one it's way too fkn good. so stop complaining, pld would be in the god tier even if the removed holy spirit and requiescat completely.

DRK needs at least 1 more physical damage mitigation

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Originally Posted by Derio

DRK needs at least 1 more physical damage mitigation

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Yes it does, badly. And shadow wall needs to have it's CD reduced to two minutes. I really hope they do something about it on tuesday.

Someone else mentioned it before and I agreed, Blood Price getting a small mitigation increase added to it ala Third Eye would be great. Then they'd have Blood Price in tank stance as their "passive mitigation" option because they lost Foresight and Anticipation alone sucks compared to DADD + Passenger.

Another option I was thinking would be to make Dark Arts Power Slash add a small defense buff to just the DRK for a sort of long period (like say, a 5% buff that lasts a minute), along with it's enmity bonus. That way it wouldn't have to be spammed and could be just enough mitigation to act as DRK's "shield block" while also playing into more interesting uses of Dark Arts. If I had my way, any move that takes Blood gauge would also self heal for an amount also, but both of those changes might be overdoing it.

So it is confirmed STR is coming to our accessories?

YES

Where can I see this.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Yes it does, badly. And shadow wall needs to have it's CD reduced to two minutes. I really hope they do something about it on tuesday.

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I was just explaining to my girlfriend today that it's the weakest of the three "big" mitigation cooldowns. It would be nice if they either reduced the cooldown, gave it a secondary effect, or both! I'm not picky.

Hmm it says "minimum".

Hoping this is at least 1/2 the VIT.....or if it is lower we can still meld strength (i.e., it isn't capped).

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Originally Posted by Poison_Rose

I was just explaining to my girlfriend today that it's the weakest of the three "big" mitigation cooldowns. It would be nice if they either reduced the cooldown, gave it a secondary effect, or both! I'm not picky.

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I feel like it's really poorly tuned atm so you got seminal at 40% for ten seconds on a 3 minute cooldown( I think this is also really bad should be 30% at 2 minutes) then you got shadow wall at 30% for 10 seconds on a 3 min CD. And the last and by far best is vengeance, 30% for 15 seconds on a 2 minute CD And everyone you get hit it reflects an attack for 50 potency. That's drk getting shafted af. That shit needs a buff and it would be one of the simplest ways to help with drk mitigation.

It's seriously sickening how many specially OP already talking about MANDATORY comp and how paladins has everything, are we purposely ignoring the live letter? there's no MANDATORY comp. we don't know the changes yet. I'm already salted with this whole THX FOR NERFING PLD bs, yeah SE thanks for after 4 years of a class that was more useless than your chocobo you finally made a class feel, fun and useful only to have it nerfed less than half a patch after, yeah thanks SE and al the cries from WARs and I wish it was just a nerf, NO! it's a change to how the class feels and that's what is bordering me. Seriously most of the WAR community has serious bloat issue, Paladin didn't need the nerf WAR and DRK needed the buff.

And like many said here DMG>MITIGATION unless this utility is to increase PT dmg, damage will always be better than mitigation (WHICH SPOILER ALERT IS THE ENTIRE UTILITY OF PLD) I hope the dmg difference is slim and not some 300+ damage difference because I don't want another heavenward.

This thread is filled with people who have no idea why PLD was actually lacking in HW.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

This thread is filled with people who have no idea why PLD was actually lacking in HW.

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Even I know and I never played PLD in HW and I joined after Weeping City lol

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Originally Posted by Derio

DRK needs at least 1 more physical damage mitigation

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Call it shadow Skin or something.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

This thread is filled with people who have no idea why PLD was actually lacking in HW.

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Started at the end of Heavensward, but PLD can't block magic, nor any magic mitigation outside of rampart, and to top it off doing less damage. Everyone knows that.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

This thread is filled with people who have no idea why PLD was actually lacking in HW.

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you mean aside from not having path or delirium, not been able to have magic mitigation, useless utility and to top it off having the less dps with also 0 aoe and the longest CD? or do you mean also because we had an overpowered tank that could do anything that other 2 could but better, self sustain and do nearly as much damage as a dps? or idk you mean the fact that mitigation is not nearly as necessary as overall dps since this community believes dps is all? there were plenty of reason but it all boiled down to overall dps, yes pld dps wasn't much under drk/war (yeah right!) but the overall damage they brought to the team was a lot more. Guess what's going to happen to paladin if war and drk go back to 300+ dps difference since pld entire tool kit that everyone is praising is mitigation.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

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+1 for generally knowing what you're talking about, but I mean the people who seem to imply that less damage alone will kill Paladin when, in reality, they fixed almost every other issue that held the class back in HW.

Paladin was bad. It was a joke. It being bad was a meme because it was so bad. It was actually detrimental to bring because it couldn't do its job nearly as well as the alternatives where it mattered most (and in expert dungeons). Other classes that were arguably underperforming compared to their alternatives (BLM, SMN, and WHM[I think]) weren't jokes because they weren't actually detrimental and still did their job well enough.

But now PLD can do its job well enough and can actually help underperforming groups instead of making the game harder for them. It won't be optimal for sheer speed but it'll sure as hell do its job better than the alternatives when it matters the most, unless its DPS really is that much lower than the alternatives (and it wasn't actually that much lower back in HW).

(unless we get gordias-level DPS checks again, in which case, oops)

Oh yep, guy below me is right.

Solo on a dummy, warr has more DPS. But in a raid setting, PLD gets slashing debuff, which puts its dps on par with Warr. And then they surpass Warr because Warr's gauge is more punishing.

I do like the changes for warr and drk. I am sad by the nerf on PLD tho instead of just bringing up the other tanks.

Slashing debuff. Imagine if paladin had a 100% uptime their dps would be higher on the dummy

They haven't said how much of a potency nerf yet. Might be a small potency decrease. And transition of fights matters. It's easier to spam holy spirit than 6 del cleaves.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

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No, it really was basically just DPS that first pushed PLD out.

People make a big deal about Path, but you only used it occasionally because BB was more DPS. A3S PLD had such superior mitigation that a group was able to solo tank+solo heal it with PLD just sitting at max stacks the entire time, but it didn't matter for most groups because DPS.

A4S they actually designed the fight so mitigation didn't matter for most mechanics ("Darkness" type damage, damage not from the boss that couldn't be debuffed, not being able to even target the boss for 2/3 of the fight to apply Path, flat damage from dolls being eaten that cooldowns didn't work on, etc.) and most damage on the tank other than the beams after Royal Pentacle was a joke. Those beams you could trade HG to make trivial as well, but none of that mattered because DPS.


Now, DRG was a part of the reason PLD brought such bad DPS and they've taken some steps to fix that by eliminating most debuffs and nerfing Disembowel, but DPS is supreme over all unless they make it actually impossible without the mitigation a particular job brings. If they were to do that, say you can get around gear checks only if you have PoA, it would be an even bigger failure than Heavensward in terms of balance and would not impress me at all.

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Originally Posted by Quri

Started at the end of Heavensward, but PLD can't block magic, nor any magic mitigation outside of rampart, and to top it off doing less damage. Everyone knows that.

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No what people don't know is that it wasn't just the fact that we had less DPS and couldn't block magic. But Warriors had more utility, more damage, better CDs, and were better overall tanks. They had everything, literally everything and we didn't excel in anything outside of having multiple physical attacking targets hit us. Guess how many raids in Alexander had a floor with multiple physical targets hitting the tank. Just 1, A2S (which was a joke of a fight to begin with). The difference was HUGE between War/Drk vs. PLD in HW. The difference between PLD and War/DRK now is not even close to the gap it was before. And the sad part is depending on what they do to Holy Spirit they may nerf the recast time enough to make that and Requiscat useless which would really blow.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

How come it is boring?

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I'm just gonna take a wild guess here and say you probably don't play DRK often, or haven't had it leveled to 70 for very long. The job isn't bad per say, and I agree with most of the changes, but it's just had the effect of making the job very boring because it's so repetitive. There's still a challenge in MP management due to how easy it is to cap out on mana, but again, the nature of it is just very repetitive.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

No, it really was basically just DPS that first pushed PLD out.

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Any PLD that got "pushed" out for DPS in HW after Gordias had only their own faults to blame. PLD was proven viable in terms of DPS in A3S and it only got buffed from there on. By the end, there was only a tiny gap between DRK and PLD. Most people didn't even reach A4S in time to realize that PLD was below the threshold. The reason why DRK sustained its role is because of the nature of the raids. Had things been all physical, we would have seen a much worse scenario for DRK.

You may not remember this far back, but when DRK was first released, everyone thought the job was near trash and would only have a place in endgame if every fight catered to it. Yoshida said, "please wait for savage to decide." Low and behold, every fight catered to DRK's broken kit in some way.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Again, wait for Tuesday because we have no idea what the changes will be. It's just too early for any kind of feedback on changes that don't even exist yet.

But yeah, if 4.05 rolls around and DRK/PLD isn't at least equal to any comp including a WAR, some people at SE most definitely need to lose their jobs.

That's really all there is to it. That's basically the standard for tank balance coming out of HW. DRK+PLD needs to be desirable.

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Yeah people should lose their jobs, because of fucking tank balance. This fucking community man. I get that you were probably being somewhat facetious, but even still.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Yay STR on accessories.

Wanna bet it's gonna be something like 20-30 STR, thereby making absolutely no difference to the current situation because VIT is still a binary stat that loses all value past the line of necessity?

Calling it right now.

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If they put 30str on accessories, and you can socket 25 str, you're at 55 str. A 270 str accessory has ~100 rating, 140 with materia, while a 320 has ~200.

You'd be trading ~25 str for 60 secondary rating and 120 vitality. In the past, the top tier secondary rating is generally somewhere between 3 and 4 times weaker than primary in terms of dps, so we can call 60 secondary around 15 str, meaning you're at best giving up 10 str for 120 vitality.

Multiply by 4 and well.. that's one serious trade-off.

DRK+PLD was disadvantageous in HW for many reasons:

1) WAR was the only class who wanted to apply the slashing debuff without offing themselves
2) HW DRK wanted to take damage and tank the boss due to Bloodprice and Lowblow+Reprisal Procs, while doing as few powerslashes as possible
3) HW PLD naturally took aggro off HW DRK due Royal Authority combo'ing off Savage Blade, making DRK+PLD comps obviously a pain for the DRK to optimize
4) STR debuff/INT debuff from PLD/DRK weren't as good as WAR's Storm's Path

What changed in SB?
Point 1 is moot, since Ninja and Samurai readily and happily apply slashing now.
Point 2? Bloodprice got heavily nerfed and Reprisal/Lowblow procs got removed entirely.
Point 3? No longer an issue since Royal Authority now combo's off Riot Blade, as well as the inclusion of shirk support.
Point 4? All moot as well, since all debuffs got removed and thus the competition field got evened out between the tanks.

So yeah, I'd say PLD+DRK is definitely more viable/competitive now in SB than it was back in Heavensward

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Yeah people should lose their jobs, because of fucking tank balance. This fucking community man. I get that you were probably being somewhat facetious, but even still.

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Actually, I'm quite serious.

I mean, if you have somebody working under you that makes the exact same mistake over and over again and you don't remove them from that job, then honestly it's your failure, not theirs. They're just trying their best to do the job that you're assigned to them and they don't get to tell you you're doing a bad job by assigning them that task because you're the boss.

If WAR is a lock again, that means they've made the exact same mistake 6 times in a row including after a very expensive major rework; leaving them to that task expecting them to get it right the 7th time is a monumental failure of management. In fact, it's delusion. Not only will they not get it right, they're guaranteed to just get it wrong exactly the same way again. The only reasonable decision is to reallocate your resources and remove those people from a task they're just incapable of and put them to a task they are able to do and bring in somebody else to do the first task who is capable of it. That's how you manage human resources, it's no different for your stockholders from making sure you budget for enough electricity to keep the servers running.

FWIW actually firing people is quite rare in Japanese culture. Toyota is a great example of this management culture, they hold on to employees even when they can't really afford them and will even pay for random retraining. It works out for Toyota too because their employees are less inclined to unionize. Usually people are simply reassigned. If somebody is truly incapable they're "reassigned" to just sit there and not get in anybody's way, but that would be if they've already failed at everything else. I would hope that SE isn't assigning the people who have already failed at everything else to tank balance after 2 years of promising us they'd get it right in SB!

Again though, wait for Tuesday. For all we know they've done a perfect job. When they discarded tank balance for an entire expansion with promises that it would be fixed in this one, they sure better have.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

This is nearly what I'm talking about. PLDs taking the rejoice for a step towards balance as a personal attack on themselves. PLD severely outclassed the other two tanks, that is fact and SE has acknowledged it. While nerf is simply one way of approaching balance, whether it gets nerfed or DRK/WAR get buffed to hell, it's the same difference.

I've been tanking in this game since 1.2 and following news and the communities closely ever since. I've seen plenty WARs say dumb things like "I'M GONNA MAN-MODE EVERYTHING", getting off on the fact that they were buffed to hell in HW. However, it's been usually humorous, and I have never seen the kind of self-righteous revel in being OP from any but those PLDs.

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You're missing the point entirely in what I said earlier in the post. But hey, if you want to paint a strawman for all PLDs who don't like the nerf that's on you for proving my point

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Originally Posted by Clover210

You're missing the point entirely in what I said earlier in the post. But hey, if you want to paint a strawman for all PLDs who don't like the nerf that's on you for proving my point

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I think your point is pretty clear. Some of us just think being upset over a small DPS nerf on PLD is ludicrous considering we just want the tanks to be balanced.

Being upset as in, "Boooo... oh well" is one thing, but the extent that PLDs are acting like its the end of the world for them is a serious slap in the face to the other tanks. By all means keep believing whatever you want though.

PLD will be pushed out the meta again. WAR and DRK will have faster def CDs making them better MTs and have higher DPS making them better OTs too. PLDs utility is nice but dps is the meta and PLD utility lowers there DPS further

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Way r u talking about? Check fflogs pld is slamming war and drk by 3 and 400 dps respectfully

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So...

https://kichwas.tumblr.com/post/163047613524/ffxiv
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...nks&dataset=70

https://68.media.tumblr.com/26a1dc27...q2bo1_1280.png

Paladin is how much higher than the other tanks again?

Yes this is 70th percentile.

If you go to 100% percentile... thereby adding in the 30% of LEAST SKILLED players... Paladin rises to the top, but only by a thin hair line.

The lower the percentile you go into, the more skilled the player base, the more Paladin falls in the ranking.

This is with current extreme trials only, as flogs doesn't yet have anything from Omega or light party dungeons on the statistics pages.

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

PLD will be pushed out the meta again.

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Out the meta? What is this "meta" you are speaking of? Let me take a guess:

"Oh, one class does 3200 DPS, but this one does 3100. So, therefore, uh, uhm... ehhh... yeah, the one that does 3100 DPS is UNPLAYABLE! And so, I will never accept them into any of my parties".

If that is the meta you follow, then I feel extremely sorry for you and all the others who think that way. Seriously, get a grip on yourselves. -_-

Now currently, before nerfs, that is the situation we have. Paladins are doing a couple of hundred DPS over Warriors. However, all Warriors can do in a party is deal damage. If Warriors had the kind of utility that Paladins have, they wouldn't be complaining about the fact that they aren't the #1 DPS. But they have nothing else going for them. Paladins, on the other hand, can do a whole lot of things apart from just dealing damage. And still they complain about the prospect of losing a spot that never had in sense in being theirs.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

So...

Paladin is how much higher than the other tanks again?

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Uh, I dunno. Why don't you try checking MEANINGFUL STATISTICS:

http://i68.tinypic.com/idhjix.png

And that Warrior on #3 probably got massive aid from its party members.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Uh, I dunno. Why don't you try checking MEANINGFUL STATISTICS:

http://i68.tinypic.com/idhjix.png

And that Warrior on #3 probably got massive aid from its party members.

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So you have stats from only 10 individual players for each boss, and you call that meaningful?

I have stats for the top 70% of ALL fflogs players, for those two bosses. I think my stats have a LOT more tracking to them...

I also noticed you failed to provide a link to your stats page for anyone to check them with.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

So...

https://kichwas.tumblr.com/post/163047613524/ffxiv
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...nks&dataset=70

https://68.media.tumblr.com/26a1dc27...q2bo1_1280.png

Paladin is how much higher than the other tanks again?

Yes this is 70th percentile.

If you go to 100% percentile... thereby adding in the 30% of LEAST SKILLED players... Paladin rises to the top, but only by a thin hair line.

The lower the percentile you go into, the more skilled the player base, the more Paladin falls in the ranking.

This is with current extreme trials only, as flogs doesn't yet have anything from Omega or light party dungeons on the statistics pages.

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You have it backwards and apparently can't properly read FFlogs. Higher percentile = more skilled players, not less skilled.