Pls dont nerv Shinryu Story.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

So it really is mechanics..? i figured that the most simple part of the fight. interesting to know.

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You wanna know what's giving people trouble? Blame the aoes that cover so freaking much of the map that it's hard to see where the safe spots are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddTDWwYQPBY&t=2m55s

This fight helps build raid awareness. Im sorry if you cant rotate a camera fast enough or if you dont respond quick enough. Unless you're color blind, I cant understand a difficulty seeing safe spots (except where an add might cover the open corner, even then middle of an edge is a great option). This fight gates the end game where arguably harder content resides. If you cant beat this what point is having end game unlocked, where arguably harder content resides.

Granted Lakshmi is easy mode and Susano is only a bit harder than Royal Menagerie, in theory the only benefit clearing that provides you is access to harder content, which if you're already having trouble with why do you want harder stuff. I feel even the Omega normal quests are more difficult than Royal Menagerie, but this one is my personal preference. Now to finish the story, yes I can understand the frustration which really the fight and quest should have been an optional part of the quest line that wraps up and unlocks the end game for you, but it isn't and the fight is fine as is.

TL/DR: The fight is easy enough and plenty forgiving unless like half your party is wiped out from Tidal Wave. Keep the fight as is, its a great skill check for content to come.

I don't think it should be nerfed, once you understand it. It's fairly easy, I believe that the problem is that too many just give up far too easily. I have heard people wanting to abandon over a one wipe and its absurd..not everything has to be super easy. Yes, it is story fight. But it's the final fight of the MSQ as of right now. It shouldn't be a push over.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

So, basically you want things to be more punishing? Thank goodness you're not on the development team.

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The game is easy as it is right now, and we are seeing how a little difficulty spike has some people crying for a nerf as it happened with Steps of faith -and i am still saying that was a playerbase problem-. The fight does not need a nerf and the game needs to be more punishing, not the way Kisai said, but the game needs to tell some the players to move their asses off for a duty completion. I am not implying that we need to fuse Savage mode elements into the normal difficulty of the game, the problem is, as easier becomes the content there are some who are going to be lazier and when a challenge pops up, they are going to cry for a nerf OR a completion group with them sitting in a corner pushing a button.

I think it will be nerfed, I have helped friends complete this trial, because people kept leaving after 1 wipe. Aslong as the players (those that have completed it) keep leaving after a wipe or two, then I can understand why SE would nerf it, if they were going to.

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Originally Posted by Klonoa7

You wanna know what's giving people trouble? Blame the aoes that cover so freaking much of the map that it's hard to see where the safe spots are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddTDWwYQPBY&t=2m55s

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Once you know the fight none of those mechanics are an issue. For example: you would know to never stand in the middle of the grey area as it's far too dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

If they don't nerf it and new players get frustrated and quit SE will loose money. I think the difficulty is fine but I'm not a new player so my perception of difficulty may be biased. Don't be so quick to assume unskilled players used a boost potion, the majority of players are now using POTD and PVP to level, neither of which really help you lean how to play your class in PVE.

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wow then i should of quited back then in 2.x then Titan hardmode was difficult as hell.
if you got clear problems, then look for a friendly Free company which helps people getting through content. Not only the Shinryu fight, but all other stuff as well. If people would leave just because they cant clear a content, man then i guess nobody would even touch savage content/extreme primals and just uninstall the game.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

True, as this game is all about mechanics but that fight's mechanics are nothing anyone who has played this haven't seen before, even the hellfire mechanic is seen in sycrus tower, nearly all of them save a few are repeats of old mechanics.

That's why i found it simple, because i reconized most of them.

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yup :) You're right about that!

He doesn't really bring in a new mechanic. We've seen it all before. The dance is just different.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Once you know the fight none of those mechanics are an issue. For example: you would know to never stand in the middle of the grey area as it's far too dangerous.

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Yea.... I noticed after watching my recording the tail only seems to strike the middle (which kept killing me after getting caught up in the other aoes), the rest however remain a problem, especially Earth Breath and it's un-named counterpart that pushes everyone off the map since they cover pretty much the entire map and when you're trying to find the safe spot in a panic theres usually not enough time to get there

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Originally Posted by Laerune

I think it will be nerfed, I have helped friends complete this trial, because people kept leaving after 1 wipe. Aslong as the players (those that have completed it) keep leaving after a wipe or two, then I can understand why SE would nerf it, if they were going to.

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This is the only thing that prevent this fight from being cleared actualy. People actually started to left the team after 1/2 wipes only a few days after early access started because: "muh, ima busy man that speed lvling before any of these newbs, just gimme tomes already. Why do I keep getting this fight one week after release?"

The difficulty of this fight is not even close to 1st days step of fates, just people are even more jerks.

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Originally Posted by Klonoa7

Yea.... I noticed after watching my recording the tail only seems to strike the middle (which kept killing me after getting caught up in the other aoes), the rest however remain a problem, especially Earth Breath and it's un-named counterpart that pushes everyone off the map since they cover pretty much the entire map and when you're trying to find the safe spot in a panic theres usually not enough time to get there

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I will agree that Earth Breath is annoying. I still screw up on it. and constantly forget about it.

And are you talking about when he flies across the whole area? That's actually pretty easy to avoid if you remember to watch for where he lands first, and never stand on the grey area. Move to a blue cardinal platform (north, south, etc.) since it will always be two opposite corners that are safe. If you are still having trouble try popping sprint as well.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

I think it will be nerfed, I have helped friends complete this trial, because people kept leaving after 1 wipe. Aslong as the players (those that have completed it) keep leaving after a wipe or two, then I can understand why SE would nerf it, if they were going to.

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They didn't nerf Final Steps of Faith, which had similar issues at first. Regardless, what can they honestly nerf? More often than not, it's people messing up mechanics than the outcoming damage. So unless they remove certain mechanics or make the damage so trivial you can ignore said mechanics, it won't help. If they actually do the latter... what a disappointment that would be.

Actually they did nerf FSoF, at least they nerfed the boss's max HP down some. Not sure if they touched anything else.

Also as something they could tweak/'nerf' is, at least when I first did it, was the amount of times the mechanics would be put out. There would be like no breathing room at all. At least for me. xD;; Although as I said before, I don't think it really needs to be nerfed.

If one or two new players die, the fight can be still cleared by the rest of the group. It scales for all skill levels and doesn't take many tries to figure out. I would add the echo tops and leave it as it is.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They didn't nerf Final Steps of Faith, which had similar issues at first. Regardless, what can they honestly nerf? More often than not, it's people messing up mechanics than the outcoming damage. So unless they remove certain mechanics or make the damage so trivial you can ignore said mechanics, it won't help. If they actually do the latter... what a disappointment that would be.

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Final steps was needed by people getting better gear but in this case, the gear vendors and 70 dungeons are locked out until you finish it. If they unlock the vendors and open the 70 dungeons, then overgearing becomes an option.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

Final steps was needed by people getting better gear but in this case, the gear vendors and 70 dungeons are locked out until you finish it. If they unlock the vendors and open the 70 dungeons, then overgearing becomes an option.

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Ala Mhigo is an expert dungeon. People can farm that for their i300 gear while getting their tomes for when they beat it.

Please nerf the huge lag spikes and random disconnecting in dungeons.

This is an amazing trial, I kinda hope it will never be nerfed and that we can expect a Savage version very soon! To help those struggling, having Echo is probably the best way to go. The entire fight is so structured that you can predict pretty much every attack or at least know what you might need to do next. But the problem I've been seeing is some players are just not learning or responding at all to the attacks of the boss. Plenty of times there have been a caster weaving a spell and you can see they are about to get flattened by the tail, yet they just don't move. If I play healer, the Rescue action is pretty much on cooldown the entire fight to grab the slow movers out of danger.

The fight is just a recap of every other primal and once you pick up on the mechs, it's actually a really easy and fun duty to play.

This is an encounter that can be learned within a few pulls. It's fine.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

A bit melodramatic don't you think? Where is your proof that "new players" will get frustrated? I think entitled players who say "I want everything on a silver platter" will, but those are in the minority, and the game would be better off without those players holding the game hostage with their sub money.

If a player wants to beat this fight, they will. If they want to roll on their back and cry (or even go as far as to quit over it) without trying then they don't deserve the nerf.

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I think you sound more entitled than the players you are referring to, I'm not sure how nerfing content you have already completed affects you. I personally completed this content in my first group because I was fortunate to be matched with players who were capable of understanding the mechanics and working together. I have no interest in looking down on players who are less skilled or able than myself and being able to complete content they cannot does not give me a sense of superiority, instead I empathize with group who have very long queues to attempt to play this content only to have group disband after failed attempts and then have to queue again.

Whether this content is changed or not, I hope that those players like yourself will be willing to help groups when they queue for this content and not simply abandon the duty after one or two failures.

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

I hope that those players like yourself will be willing to help groups when they queue for this content and not simply abandon the duty after one or two failures.

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Unless I am called away from IRL shenanigans, I am usually one that will bash my head at the duty until the timer runs out and we're automatically removed. I've completed the content aye, but there are plenty that haven't. I want to help them complete the content and carry on seeing what Stormblood has to offer. Especially with later patches when more MSQ is introduced. I join a roulette for tomes/exp/gil/whatever aye, but to do that I have to complete a duty. So I will do my damned hardest to beat that duty. I won't simply skimp out and try and get the roulette again. If that helps players get their first clears to advance forward, all the better!

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

I think you sound more entitled than the players you are referring to, I'm not sure how nerfing content you have already completed affects you.

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Ok, this mentality needs to stop on this forum. Not once did I say the change affects me directly, and you can't discount my opinion on how the game is fundamentally designed because I am past the point of contention.

All balance changes/nerfs affect everyone. Period. Think of it this way, each piece of content is a stepping stone to the next, and each prepares a player for the next jump. If you shift a stepping stone then a player's skill level will be altered for subsequent jumps.

I look at the royal menagerie as a stepping stone in a larger string on player content leading from lvl 60 right through to savage omega, and that nerf would offset the difficulty curve leading to that point. Does that directly affect my own abilities? No. But I have a vested interest in the game mechanics that I would like to see balanced correctly, and not be put into a state of imbalance because some people didn't put in the effort to get it done. We saw it repeatedly in heavensward and I don't want to see it in stormblood as well.


Edit: as for your final point, I do help, because that is the point of the content, to prepare and educate people for harder content. A nerf would completely destroy that concept.

I am annoyed at your post because you promote the idea of holding the game hostage with subs. Something which has been used to force content to be dumbed down for the lazy, not for the inexperienced, and that's not fair on the players or the game itself.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

All balance changes/nerfs affect everyone. Period. Think of it this way, each piece of content is a stepping stone to the next, and each prepares a player for the next jump. If you shift a stepping stone then a player's skill level will be altered for subsequent jumps.I look at the royal menagerie as a stepping stone in a larger string on player content leading from lvl 60 right through to savage omega, and that nerf would offset the difficulty curve leading to that point. Does that directly affect my own abilities? No. But I have a vested interest in the game mechanics that I would like to see balanced correctly, and not be put into a state of imbalance because some people didn't put in the effort to get it done. We saw it repeatedly in heavensward and I don't want to see it in stormblood as well.


Edit: as for your final point, I do help, because that is the point of the content, to prepare and educate people for harder content. A nerf would completely destroy that concept.

I am annoyed at your post because you promote the idea of holding the game hostage with subs. Something which has been used to force content to be dumbed down for the lazy, not for the inexperienced, and that's not fair on the players or the game itself.

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Do you know a large percentage of the player base will never enter savage omega? Would you be surprised to hear that a lot of players in this game wont even bother entering savage content and are happy to play the normal modes for the story.

There is a reason why there are 2 tiers of contents in this game, it is to allow everyone to experience content, I'm not sure where the hostage situation comes into it.

As I have said in every post I've posted i this thread, I'm not personally affected by any changes to this dungeon but I feel the requests for the content to be altered are coming from those who are affected.

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

Do you know a large percentage of the player base will never enter savage omega? Would you be surprised to hear that a lot of players in this game wont even bother entering savage content and are happy to play the normal modes for the story.

There is a reason why there are 2 tiers of contents in this game, it is to allow everyone to experience content, I'm not sure where the hostage situation comes into it

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I am fully aware of this, and if you think that this is advocation for nerfing content then you are sorely mistaken. Shinryu actually makes the game MORE accessible to the players that you are mentioning, not less. The fight is not particularly hard (maybe on par with Nidhogg NM or Ozma, neither of which were nerfed), but what it does do is force players to pay attention and show them that maybe they can get through an encounter that demands a little bit of pressure. The fact that the ex primals are easy again gives these players a bit more confidence, and shows them that they can perform. Compare this to 3.1 where Thordan was faceroll, void ark was faceroll, and gordias was the dark souls of raids, the clear rates were awful. What the devs are trying to do is generate a progression curve, stretching through shinryu, giving players confidence in the ex primals, and have a gradual difficulty curve (likely O1 not being much harder than shinryu and the ex primals) going through the raid. That is good design and makes content very accessible to everyone. Like I said, please don't say the content doesn't affect me because that fact right there affects every single member of the community that cares about any of that content. People struggled to group up in gordias, and that wasn't just because the raid was too hard in an isolated bubble, it was because the surrounding content was also too easy, and players had no stepping stone to get into that content.

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

As I have said in every post I've posted i this thread, I'm not personally affected by any changes to this dungeon but I feel the requests for the content to be altered are coming from those who are affected.

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If you aren't personally affected, why are you fighting the battle? I am affected by the change, and you likely are too, it's just that I recognize that I am affected and am on the side of the debate that recognizes my grievances.



Edit: I'd also like to mention offhand that Nidhogg NM and Ozma turned out fine because players learned the fights and became overgeared and the ratio of skilled players and unskilled players balanced out, this will happen to Shinryu too.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Snip.

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It seems that we will keep going around in circles, all that's left to do is wait to see if SE agrees with you or agree with me. I will continue to help those who struggle with this content and I hope you will as well.

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Originally Posted by NightFire19

Only change I would think they could add is Echo buff.

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Get out! Out!