Please Please Please Remove Esuna From CrossRole

I think it comes down to this:

Healer required:
Protect
Swiftcast
Lucid dreaming
Esuna
Choice: cleric stance or largesse

Total 1 choice

Tank required:
Provoke
Rampart
Convelesance

Total 2 choice

Dps required:
Invigorate

Total choice 4.


It's just that healers and to a lesser degree tanks got shafted on choice with the new role actions being a choice

My opinion on the new role abilities is that many of them are simply an ability tax. DPS are perhaps the only exception to this, in that many abilities are not necessary for them but simply useful.

Healers, and to a lesser extent tanks, have many abilities they need to use that are simply too important not to have. Esuna, Lucid Dreaming, and Largesse were all skills that were present in every healer's kit (in one form or the other) but were removed in 4.0. The actual fight mechanics haven't changed and healers still need those skills for much of their content.

Although it is possible to get around these new mechanics, and some jobs (blm and brd) can compensate for it at lv.60+, it doesn't change the traditional role of healer and the fact they are locked into 4 or 5 of their role abilities unless they have a premade they can talk with and trade out specific abilities.

I agree with this so much, I can't stand that they made Esuna a cross class that and Protect. We shouldn't have healers joining in without protect or Esuna.... We need Esuna and Protect taken off of cross ablities please square please please please

Healers just have to copy paste a macro already made for them. I don't get the problem. They don't need Protect in the 5 action role skills in a permanent way for fights.
Same macro for range DPS support with Peloton (to run faster)

Bdyer, I believe BRD and MCH to have not only 1 "mandatory" skill only. They at least should have : Invigorate / Tactician / Palissade / Refresh. Because you can speak about choice as much as you want, BRD and MCH choice is poor for HL content.

We have access to :
Heavy (lol)
Bind (lolx2)
Silence (cast cancel at 25 range if enemy not immune)
Stun (cast cancel at 5 range if enemy not immune, + so many allies can already do it)
Peloton (skill we can macro to activate easily out of battle as a 6th action role skill, so we don't have to pick it during fights)
Second Wind (to help a bit the healer)

Now you can see our amazing choice for hard content --> we end with : Tactician / Refresh / Palissade / Invigorate + 1 choice between Second Wind/Stun/Silence (amazing, I'm sure that choice will change everything, right?)

I admit there is not a lot of choice for healers too, but don't try to defend healers' case by being like range physical dps suppport have a lot of optimization choices. We don't. And what we will decide to pick matters even less.

It's even those regen MP/TP skills which make our role what it is and which is supposed to make us called "support" in a way it's supposed to be viable to lower our dmg that much for the simple fact we can give energy back to allies (which is a way to improve overall dps).

While some of the cross role skills are pseudo-mandatory in light party content, I think the real value of the system comes into play in a full party. If you have two healers, only one of them needs to be able to cast protect, and the same argument could be made for esuna regarding situations where a debuff absolutely needs to be removed.

Though it seems contrary to the nature of most players, a small amount of coordination between the other party members that share your role can go a long way in expanding your utility in a fight. A fact that is not exclusive to healers.

i had Esuna off for almost the entirety of Stormblood until Deltascape 4.0 and i'm not sure if its required after the first 10 seconds of the fight

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Originally Posted by snuggans

i had Esuna off for almost the entirety of Stormblood until Deltascape 4.0 and i'm not sure if its required after the first 10 seconds of the fight

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It isn't. Nothing after the initial Doom is Esunable making Esuna a mandatory yet also worthless ability. Depending who it lands on I'd almost rather just ignore it and rez them later so I can keep dpsing.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I really do think people have to get out of the mind set that Esuna is optional... It's probably the most mandatory RA we have, next to Swiftcast. People can argue that "you don't always need to cleanse stuff" but the simple fact that there are times you do? That makes it mandatory imo

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Needing Esuna sometimes isn't a good enough reason to have it always.
With experience you'll know whether a specific instance requires it or not.
Someone even made a doc listing all instances and whether they have any debuffs that can/should be cleansed.

Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming, Largesse & Cleric Stance are my permanent role actions.
For #5, in dungeons I cast Protect -> switch it out for something else, Esuna if it's needed, otherwise usually just Eye for an Eye.
In 8-man content it's just plain unnecessary to have Protect on both healers, one can drop it for something else instance appropriate.

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Originally Posted by CharlieBlake

the scorpion should be stunned before that move goes off, a caster dps can remove the dot.... there's a lot of other ways to deal with it than esuna.

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IIRC if you put a shield on the target before the dot hits, it won't hit. If the target takes 0 damage, they don't get the dot.

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Originally Posted by Bdyer

I think it comes down to this:

Dps required:
Invigorate

Total choice 4.


It's just that healers and to a lesser degree tanks got shafted on choice with the new role actions being a choice

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DPS need Diversion or Lucid for an aggro dump. But as a tank, they never use their aggro dump abiliities anyway for some reason.

While I understand the frustration, if this wasn't a new healer and they refused to use Esuna. I highly doubt it making it a mandatory thing would have made them do it. If it's not on their hotbar already, they probably wouldn't have used it anyways.

I'm not disagreeing it should be mandatory, but in this case..it seems like you got a jerk healer. Who would probably not use it on you just to spite you even after asking for it.

I think what they might end up doing is splitting the role actions into two sections. One that doesn't allow you to remove them and others that you can adjust. This role system is the tip of the iceberg that could have some potential. In the future they could expand on it and have Protect / Esuna as mandatory role actions but another section of 5 slots for "optional" and increase the amount of options.

If we don't remove it, but adjust it..we get the same result. Esuna is made automatic and mandatory, and...the healer still can choose to not use it.

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Originally Posted by Saevel

I'd say keep Esuna where it is and instead remove Protect from the game altogether.

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I'd much rather have protect get an increase like it has in PVP before removing it. Yes so far it says it's for WHM only, but to adjust it so that it can be used for all jobs via their gauges would make it interesting to use again. Adding this kind of resource to most actions would be a possible welcome change, or an unnecessary complication...whichever.

I'd say keep Esuna where it is and instead remove Protect from the game altogether. We always cast it, and it's switched out for another skill for the 30 minute duration, which is typically longer than any instance content. Let's be honest: you don't bring a healer along because they can cast protect, you bring them for everything else.

Just remove it and increase everyone's native defenses proportionally. Doing so frees up the slot for (almost) always equipping Esuna.

I love this "use a macro to swap" argument... use one button to swap skill A to skill B, use another button to use skill B, use another button to swap back to skill A then use another button to use skill A... 4 buttons for 2 skills... not a big deal on a keyboard but a mess on a controller... no wonder people hesitate to play healers

It's also problematic in Savage content =(

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Originally Posted by Saevel

Just remove it and increase everyone's native defenses proportionally. Doing so frees up the slot for (almost) always equipping Esuna.

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Alternatively, they could use the PVP version of Protect.

Honestly, a lot of the changes they made in PvP would make a lot of sense in the PVE environment, in terms of taking some of the least used abilities and making them not only useful but desirable.

Sole Survivor, Protect, PvP's version of 'Third Eye' and Seigan, retaining the Hate-combo bonus effects for tanks.

The playstyle, not so much. I don't find PVE's playstyle needs much changing, but the ability / utility overhaul PVP got is something they could stand to look at implementing over on this side of the pond.

I don't know anyone that is completely happy with the cross-roles, it's an issue in savage for every role.

I get the intent was to eliminate button bloat but what they have done has made us practically do a cross-role check for every savage fight. Tanks in O3S, swap-in Awareness. Or some melee DPS taking Arm's Length for O4S, they can swap Invigorate for it. Same with healers and rescue or surecast. One healer can just not take protect for-example.

I have to remind my group sometimes to check their stuff just because how this system works, otherwise we'd just wipe and fix. I use protect swap macro buttons, since my other healer always takes protect.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

I love this "use a macro to swap" argument... use one button to swap skill A to skill B, use another button to use skill B, use another button to swap back to skill A then use another button to use skill A... 4 buttons for 2 skills... not a big deal on a keyboard but a mess on a controller... no wonder people hesitate to play healers

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That's less of an 'argument' and more of a 'you can do this to make it less annoying until SE fixes it' situation. The Protect swap macro only exists because in dungeon content Protect is only used at the very start and never again. So you can have a dead slot for the entire run, swap it in and out manually constantly, or let a macro do it for you.

Just remove Protect and give us Virus back :'D

I don't care much for Esuna, it's really not mandatory in most fights and the worst case scenario is you cause one wipe before putting it back on your hotbar. Even that should only happen when you're running content blind for the first time, it's not a big deal. And for SCH you can just SC Selene in and sort it out.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Most status detriment in the game can't be removed and the ones that can are usually avoidable or can be removed by doing the mechanic properly. You don't need esuna.

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O4 Normal says otherwise. Literally they have the boss cast a cleanse-able doom on 2 players once at the beginning of the fight. Its a mechanic absent from OS4 and it is literally there only to make sure one healer is wasting a role skill on esuna. Because that fight has nothing of note else to cleanse.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

O4 Normal says otherwise. Literally they have the boss cast a cleanse-able doom on 2 players once at the beginning of the fight. Its a mechanic absent from OS4 and it is literally there only to make sure one healer is wasting a role skill on esuna. Because that fight has nothing of note else to cleanse.

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I mean, you *could* Thin Air and raise both of them instead... but yes, it seems only there to catch out groups where nobody brought Esuna. I sure hope that isn't the design plan long term.

Nah, its just better to pre-pull with Scholar Selene and impress the other healer that you have beaten them to the punch on Fey Caressing both targets.

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Originally Posted by technole

Nah, its just better to pre-pull with Scholar Selene and impress the other healer that you have beaten them to the punch on Fey Caressing both targets.

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oh hey, good idea. Selene has been getting so much shit lately. I completely forgot about her abilities.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

I love this "use a macro to swap" argument... use one button to swap skill A to skill B, use another button to use skill B, use another button to swap back to skill A then use another button to use skill A... 4 buttons for 2 skills... not a big deal on a keyboard but a mess on a controller... no wonder people hesitate to play healers

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Or you put it all in one macro and at the start of the dungeon press it once. I don't get where you think you need 4 buttons from.

Baddies will ruin all good things and I don't believe in SE balancing around people being bad. Esuna being on role actions is great because it means you can exchange it for something else in the VERY often situation a fight doesn't call for it. I prefer it that way, personally, because it's such a wasted ability in like 80% of endgame.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

I love this "use a macro to swap" argument... use one button to swap skill A to skill B, use another button to use skill B, use another button to swap back to skill A then use another button to use skill A... 4 buttons for 2 skills... not a big deal on a keyboard but a mess on a controller... no wonder people hesitate to play healers

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It's one button to swap from a to b, use b, and swap b to a.

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Originally Posted by Tubben

It's one button to swap from a to b, use b, and swap b to a.

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Well and the button to use a, but there is no increase in buttons to have a skill swap and use macro.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Well and the button to use a, but there is no increase in buttons to have a skill swap and use macro.

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Aye, but if Esuna is off the cross class list, you had 2 Buttons anyway. Now it's the same. One for Esuna, One for Protect. Not 4 Buttons for 2 Skills, like Okaminaru said.

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Originally Posted by TheChemicalCat

Rescue can be an annoyance.

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I cast Protect and switch it out for Rescue after casting.
It's not an annoyance if you know how to use it. One particular fight I love using it at and is actually quite effective is the Leviathan fight on Extreme. Most of the times you do that fight you do it in DF. There's almost always someone who misses that you have to walk to the other end of the woosh thingy on the side, or they might've just missed it.
Besides that I use Largesse, Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming and Esuna.

It's also a great way to force your tanks to pay attention and pick up adds you aggro'd, especially in 8mans when you Rescue OTs doing pure DPS.

That, and it's just a great way to troll your friends.

It boggles my mind that their solution to "SCH doesn't get Esuna until 40, what do?" was to take away everyone's Esuna instead of making it a spell tied to SCH's Job stone. It's not like they haven't reorganized the levels of other abilities, or stuck other abilities on Job stones that their class can't have access to. "Oh no, now they would need another cross role spell" Stick Riposte in there. Done.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Baddies will ruin all good things and I don't believe in SE balancing around people being bad. Esuna being on role actions is great because it means you can exchange it for something else in the VERY often situation a fight doesn't call for it. I prefer it that way, personally, because it's such a wasted ability in like 80% of endgame.

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This is functionally no different than simply removing an ability you have access to from your bar.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This is functionally no different than simply removing an ability you have access to from your bar.

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Yeah and he acts like you remove the ability from your bar when it's role action. In general any role actions I make use of all have a place on my UI whether i have them activated currently or not.

Any "Mandatory" ability such as Raise, Provoke, Esuna shouldn't be in the cross role.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Baddies will ruin all good things and I don't believe in SE balancing around people being bad. Esuna being on role actions is great because it means you can exchange it for something else in the VERY often situation a fight doesn't call for it. I prefer it that way, personally, because it's such a wasted ability in like 80% of endgame.

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The problem with this is most of the other abilities are utter shyte. Cleric stance at a whopping 5%? Break (LOL)? Maybe surecast, situational as well.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Any "Mandatory" ability such as Raise, Provoke, Esuna shouldn't be in the cross role.

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Why not? Every healer has access to the mandatory abilities if they're cross role.

Esuna isn't mandatory, not every raid or dungeon has things worth dispelling. Simple flame DoT? Just put a regen on.

Provoke isn't mandatory, only in raiding situations it is. But it's good to have in a dungeon for a pull that can't be reached by Shield Lob and Tomahawk. Or if you lose aggro but even then you can smack your threat combo to get it back.

Surecast is situational but it has it's use in O4S. Being able to stay in-place and cast oGCD heals, or damage without getting knocked back is a god-send.

Heaven forbid we get options to take the skills we want for the right situation.

While Esuna is rather situational, I do feel like Protect should have been an auto party buff if a healer is in light/full party. That way they could have kept stoneskin which is great for mitigation. I feel like what was intended to simplify roles has complicated things in other ways. Also I find it slightly annoying that we're still only offered 5 cross roles and felt like we should have been awarded a 6th one.

It's kind of annoying after the fact you find out you need something for encounters, specially if you go into roulette forgetting you need to add in Esuna due to things like Doom. (this is something to mention due to 24 man roulette going to be a thing) or that annoying Sludge mechanic in Sastasha HM.

Stoneskin was not great in HW, it was already a step out of the door. Benison is the new mitigation for WHM and that's okay.

Five slots is fine, just protect is a bit of a hazy situation as YoshiP did want to remove it but got some flack internally because of how can you have a FF game without it. If that skill was just passive, threads like this wouldn't exist. More or less every fight is a different. Savage is the same way, you really don't use the same five skills in every floor. Sooner or later they will probably throw a mechanic where Heavy (Break) could be useful again. You have to remember they did an analysis on every skill that every role should have.

Some may think some skills don't have value, but they also haven't done every content available in the game (O4S Surecast), or know that there was old content that actually had use for some of the skills when they were relevant (Heavy in A3S/Turn 5. Now that healers lost DPS skills that had the heavy trait).

I usually take Protect and my co-healer takes Esuna (I don't swap out protect because people die and swapping your role skills every pull is unbelievably tedious). Outside of Savage you don't have to worry about enrage timers, and I take both. Why is this difficult? And what else am I going to take? Rescue? I'd get reported for griefing within an hour.

I think it's more of a problem for new healers/players who see these skills as 'optional' and either don't take them or don't know how to use them. It's very likely a new player could get to 70 never having used Esuna and therefore not understanding its use or how it applies to debuffs.
Have seen it many times now the two people dropping at the start in o4n as neither healer can be bothered/understands how to remove the unavoidable Doom debuff.
Just make Esuna baseline and add something sparkly or fun in its place in the role actions list. Healers don't need choice when it comes to core mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

I usually take Protect and my co-healer takes Esuna (I don't swap out protect because people die and swapping your role skills every pull is unbelievably tedious). Outside of Savage you don't have to worry about enrage timers, and I take both. Why is this difficult? And what else am I going to take? Rescue? I'd get reported for griefing within an hour.

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When you're doing coordinated group stuff, that makes the most sense.

In DF, I just leave Esuna in all the time and the Protect Swap macro is a beautiful thing. Then if the other person doesn't bother doing either, we're still covered.