Incentives to NOT queue as DPS

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

You're so sweet, SweetestTart. You seem like a nice person.

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Aw, jeez. Thank you! I see where I must've come off in my initial post like I personally just wanted faster queues, but it seems like if we got more people to play heals/tank, even if it's not so much to main it as it's just a bump in the road before they can go back to their DPS main, the end result would still be that there's more healer/tanks in circulation, so all DPS players would benefit from it. If there's more people playing the roles in high demand, then things should sort of deflate, right? And I think it'd be helpful all around if everyone was encouraged through the system to try to understand what each other does. Having gotten SAM/MNK/DRK to 60, and knowing what those classes do lets me heal them and dole out AST cards even more effectively, so even if they're not my mains, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain from it, you know?

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Originally Posted by HELLruler

Honestly, I don't think there's reason to push people to play healer/tank. What's the point of having them do it and perform badly?

Tanking and healing is a lot more demanding than dpsing; so if you are not into it, you are probably messing up the run for another 3/7 people

A solution, in my opinion, would be have players not queue as DPS. Remove the daily roulette rewards if you go as a DPS, nerf dungeon exp for them and buff quest/FATE exp so they go do something else

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Tanking and healing are definitely not more demanding than dpsing, they just have higher punishments for doing them badly. Tanking in general is rotationally way easier than dps, and healers spend a lot of time casting spells, have somewhat limited and situational ogcds, and dps rotations are literally 2-button most of the time, if that.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Tanking and healing are definitely not more demanding than dpsing, they just have higher punishments for doing them badly. Tanking in general is rotationally way easier than dps, and healers spend a lot of time casting spells, have somewhat limited and situational ogcds, and dps rotations are literally 2-button most of the time, if that.

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You're forgetting higher harassment for not going with the meta, or speed running, or not speed running, or big pulling, or not big pulling. There's no one-tank-pleases all. Likewise for the Healer. You get a tank that wants to multi-pull with a healer who wants to DPS and that ends in a wipe. Big pull wipes are always the tanks fault, but DPS'ing healers are likewise at fault if the pulls are normal, and they're just using regen or the fairy. Those two things will not keep the tank alive.

But because people have been spoiled on PotD's gameplay, now DPS just rush into mobs while the tank is pulling. Like no, if you start attacking the mobs before the tank has stopped moving, I'm not healing you, because I need to follow the tank.

I keep seeing this on Castrum Meridianum, where the doors open, and some DPS will run straight into the group of 6 Colossus. Yes this content is faceroll, but a healer doesn't need to die with you by trying to heal DPS that are being bad.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Tanking and healing are definitely not more demanding than dpsing, they just have higher punishments for doing them badly. Tanking in general is rotationally way easier than dps, and healers spend a lot of time casting spells, have somewhat limited and situational ogcds, and dps rotations are literally 2-button most of the time, if that.

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By definition, having a higher punishment for messing up makes it more demanding. I can't believe you're actually attempting to argue this point, lol.

I don't know, after reading through this thread, I haven't really seen anyone except for maybe one person consider the fact that what if someone doesn't want to play anything but DPS? I know I don't want to and no amount of incentives would get me to change that. I don't like being a healer or a tank, I sucked at those type of roles before, I am uncomfortable with the play style, and DPS has always been the best way I play any MMO. Why force someone to do something they are not comfortable with or play a role that they are not having fun with or suck at it so badly that they are bringing down the whole group and you just can't clear content that way? I don't know, just doesn't sound right to me. Yes there is a queue problem but punishing players for wanting to play the role they like seems like a bad idea to me. :/

A solution would be to reward those that play non DPS classes, while not punishing the DPS players. I think the best solution would be increase the rewards for Tanks and Healers. An example could be:

1. Tanks and Healers can earn rare mounts when queueing (solo) via the Duty Finder.
2. Tanks and Healers can earn more Tomestones every week then the DPS players.
3. Tanks and Healers can will be rewarded with bags which has different rewards, like minions, housing items and bardings.
4. Tanks and Healers will earn alot more Gil when doing content via the Duty Finder.

Tanks and Healers will be rewarded for queueing and DPS will be rewarded by having reduced waiting time in the queue. The DPS players that get jealous and want to earn those rewards aswell, they will play a Tank or a Healer and inturn get rewarded, while helping other DPS players enter the dungeon much faster.

Its a WIN/WIN.

These options will reward the Tank and Healer, while not punishing the DPS. If a DPS wants to have these rewards, then they need to play those two roles. If you are playing a DPS, then you need to deal with the bad parts of that role, which in MMORPG is longer queue then the other roles.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

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Any single one of those would be amazing.

While bonus rewards for playing as a tank or healer sounds good on paper, in practice, the DPS still queue as DPS and the tanks and healers just get shiny new awards to go along with their faster queue times... so really, DPS just get even more shafted than they already were.

The only feasible and logical answer to this particular conundrum would be to restructure the current group setup to allow for a larger number of DPS in each dungeon run.

Considering all the balancing this would entail... it's certainly not a quick fix, but is also unfortunately the only fix with a dependable outcome.

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Originally Posted by Niluriel

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What is wrong with DPS getting shafted?

I really hate to say this blunt, but it is the fault of people who are DPS only mains (Of which there are a truckton) that the issue exists. I personally don't mind one way or the other as I am a healer main and get que pops in 30 seconds 90% of the time; but if the COMMUNITY refuses to go outside of their comfort zone and learn non-preffered roles, nothing changes,

Decouple gear progression from 4 mans (i.e., tomes), and you've solved this problem. Sure, people can get the drops from the 4 man dungeons, but only as a means to progress to 8 and 24 man content to get better/best gear (which have more DPS slots, hence lower Q times for DPS). Tomes would essentially go away. They're not needed.

SE can then provide really cool incentives for people who are geared to return to that content -- not chump-change gil. Mounts, unique glamours, crafting gear/recipes, etc. Basically, anything you can think of that's cool/worthwhile doing outside of gear progression throw into the pot of 'rewards'. And, ofc, you'd wanna do that content quickly so you'd likely Q as a tank or healer.

tlDR: No tomes for gear. More 8/24 man content for gear. Provide better rewards for those that are geared to do lower/repeatable content.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I really hate to say this blunt, but it is the fault of people who are DPS only mains (Of which there are a truckton) that the issue exists.

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Except that being a DPS only main is perfectly fine if the content didn't require tanks, healers and DPS in a ratio that doesn't match the preference ratio of the community. Shafting people over this design failure is asinine and supporting such is rotten.

In a pass-time activity that you are meant to enjoy, I don't think it is the responsibility of the players to play something they don't enjoy so that the failure of the devs works out. It's the responsibility of the company to match and accommodate the preferences of the players.

Almost all MMOs got this structure. If you want to dps and dont wanna deal with tank/healer/DPS roles then go and play video games. When i was not in the mood to sit patiently waiting for queues, I closed this mmo window and play a video game. Or you can make friends so they can help you.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Except that being a DPS only main is perfectly fine if the content didn't require tanks, healers and DPS in a ratio that doesn't match the preference ratio of the community. Shafting people over this design failure is asinine and supporting such is rotten.

In a pass-time activity that you are meant to enjoy, I don't think it is the responsibility of the players to play something they don't enjoy so that the failure of the devs works out. It's the responsibility of the company to match and accommodate the preferences of the players.

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So what, 6 man dungeons with 4 DPS? Because that's about the ration here.

That's silly. There are stright up too many DPS only players.

I don't get it, it's an MMO so of course dps times are large. I purposely didn't main a dps because that's just how it is in MMO's.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

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You are missing the point. Why should I be forced to play a role that I suck at or do not feel comfortable playing as? Do you want people to bring down groups because they aren't good at being tanks or healers or are just not clicking with that role? I really do not understand your logic. It's like saying force people to be a repair person even though they are not good at it and will just cause more problems for their customers in the future because they suck at it when they could have been a civil engineer because that is what they like doing and they are very very good at it. Besides, DPS already does self punishment as it is due to long queue times, lel.

I just played BRD (first time playing any DPS since leveling THM for Swiftcast way back when) and dear god it was fun. I understand why people play DPS now, the lack of almost any reslonsibility is really pleasant. That being said I've not changed my main because I like healing as well and it provides a service to the community.

The thing that seplayers FFXIV from other video games is the idea that it is an mmo. I'm not saying tranking and healing should be compulsory but I think anything to encourage players to help out other players should be icing on the cake that is helping people (and instaqueue).

Why not level a PLD and give it a shot? You might enjoy it and find your new main! The problem is that while its easy to go from tanking or healing to DPS because DPS was already part of your role switching from DPS to another role must be that much more intimidating.

If only we had a part of the playerbase dedicated to helping others learn, maybe we could even mark them with some sort of identifying logo near their name...

Part of me feels that additional incentives would just be a band aid fix at best. People switched to DPS for a reason, they just found the DPS classes to be more fun. Offering incentives is basically making the game into a sort of job. You are basically paying people for doing something they don't like doing and any negativity that incurs during this can spill over into their fun time. Incentives don't solve the underlying issue.

The only real solution is to make tanking and healing classes more fun somehow.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Except that being a DPS only main is perfectly fine if the content didn't require tanks, healers and DPS in a ratio that doesn't match the preference ratio of the community. Shafting people over this design failure is asinine and supporting such is rotten.

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From what I've seen, single player Final Fantasy games always had that 1T/1H/2D setup, and thus it is a carryover from that here and the devs consider it core to what makes FF, FF, and thus won't change it. I agree, DPS queue times are an issue but I don't think the devs are willing to budge on this.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

If only we had a part of the playerbase dedicated to helping others learn, maybe we could even mark them with some sort of identifying logo near their name...

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Anyone on the Chaos datacentre needing this, I'm happy to help. I'll also provide a supportive and encouraging approach (as mentors should) and support you in picking up the role. More people giving the tank/healer role a go and getting comfortable with it can only be a good thing even if it increases mine own queue times as a tank/healer.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

So what, 6 man dungeons with 4 DPS? Because that's about the ration here.

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Sure, why not? Where's the issue?

There's no such thing as too many DPS only players. You just have to adapt the content to suit. More slots is a good first step without breaking the mold.

You can also make content work even with only DPS and it doesn't even need to be less engaging than the usual content, because tanks and healers are only needed for tank&spank. You don't need them for gaze attacks, you don't need them for stack mechanics, nor spread mechanics, nor placement mechanics, nor soaking mechanics, nor telegraphed AoEs, nor standing on platforms, nor add priority, nor meteors, nor any other mechanic where you are supposed to do something specific to avoid damage, because you can always make people avoid ALL damage if the mechanic is done correctly.
One dungeon that's all mechanics and no trinity per patch and the problem would be alleviated. And people who are dead set on the trinity can just queue for the other. That's another way to alleviate things.

Incentives are just a reward for having a certain preference, or a punishment for not having it. They're on the same level of stupid as rewarding or punishing people for belonging to a certain religion. And the mandatory quota of 1 muslim, 1 catholic and 2 jehova's witnesses is completely arbitrary - it can and should be changed if there's a considerable surplus of any of them.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Sure, why not? Where's the issue?
One dungeon that's all mechanics and no trinity per patch and the problem would be alleviated. And people who are dead set on the trinity can just queue for the other. That's another way to alleviate things.

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That idea might work, but then people would complain that it's too easy or that the rewards aren't good enough. If it's too hard then healing or tanking might be needed and if the reward isn't good enough no one will run it. It'll be hard to balance it, and end up like POTD.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Why not level a PLD and give it a shot? You might enjoy it and find your new main! The problem is that while its easy to go from tanking or healing to DPS because DPS was already part of your role switching from DPS to another role must be that much more intimidating.

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I've played those roles in other mmos before, the gameplay is not really that much different in this game tbh. I don't like tanking or healing and to boot I suck at it. I am not going to burden a group with my measly skills and inability to tank or heal efficiently when I could DPS with far better results. Sorry. Incentives will not get me or other players that have similar feelings to play anything other than DPS. I'm not trying to be annoying about this but you have to consider the other side of it too.

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Originally Posted by Ellenthall

By definition, having a higher punishment for messing up makes it more demanding. I can't believe you're actually attempting to argue this point, lol.

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Driving a car is simple, but driving into a pole will kill you.
Solving a rubix cube is complex, but failing to solve a rubix cube means you get sore fingers. Unless maybe the mafia kidnapped your son or daughter and is holding them at knife-edge based on your performance with a rubix cube, I guess.

Demanding means it requires more of you, not that failure to meet those demands has a worse outcome.

By definition, you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

Part of me feels that additional incentives would just be a band aid fix at best. People switched to DPS for a reason, they just found the DPS classes to be more fun. Offering incentives is basically making the game into a sort of job. You are basically paying people for doing something they don't like doing and any negativity that incurs during this can spill over into their fun time. Incentives don't solve the underlying issue.

The only real solution is to make tanking and healing classes more fun somehow.

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The solution doesn't exist. Incentivizing works.

If you don't want to do it, don't do it.

If the incentive is enough to convince you to do it, then the positive definitionally outweighs the negative for you. If it didn't, the incentive wouldn't have worked.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Driving a car is simple, but driving into a pole will kill you.
Solving a rubix cube is complex, but failing to solve a rubix cube means you get sore fingers.

Demanding means it requires more of you, not that failure to meet those demands has a worse outcome.

By definition, you are wrong.

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It depends on what you mean by 'demanding'. Healers have to not only handle the same mechanics as DPS (and sometimes more), but they also have to know boss mechanics to anticipate tank busters, raid wide dps, etc. Therefore, fights in general are more demanding on healers -- and to a certain extent tanks.

If you are looking at it from a button mashing standpoint, then yeah -- having a few cures, a cleanse, and some buffs isn't that complicated. It's all of the extra things healers have to manage that makes it 'demanding'. That, and the margin for error is much smaller than with DPS. A good healer can make up for bad DPS; the reverse, however, is not true.

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

I've played those roles in other mmos before, the gameplay is not really that much different in this game tbh. I don't like tanking or healing and to boot I suck at it. I am not going to burden a group with my measly skills and inability to tank or heal efficiently when I could DPS with far better results. Sorry. Incentives will not get me or other players that have similar feelings to play anything other than DPS. I'm not trying to be annoying about this but you have to consider the other side of it too.

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It's kind of interesting you say that, because tanking is mechanically easier than DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

The only real solution is to make tanking and healing classes more fun somehow.

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Yeah. I'm sure everyone's tired of me saying this, but I really miss tanking from TERA. It was fun. One of the negatives of tanking is dealing with people and backseat tanks. But because it was fun I still played it. In fact, I queued up every single day in TERA despite that because it was fun. No matter how many incentives you throw at people, if the role is boring, you aren't going to get as many people playing it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeraOnline/...n_for_tanking/

>Because I actually feel fully engaged in fights.

Learning the dance takes quite a bit of work, and even when you've done it 100+ times it's still a challenge to take 0 damage, and it's even more of a challenge when you optimize DPS, because taking 0 damage and maximizing DPS are at ends with each other (because you'd take any damage that didn't kill you for maximum DPS).

I've only played DPS ever in mmos but a few weeks ago I switched to healer. I was nervous because there is more responsibility on you where as DPS you just deal damage and avoid damage. The only incentive I needed was the instant cues I have now. Not once have I waited more then a minute for any cue on any dungeon.

That's all the incentive tanks or healers need. If you want to instantly cue on anything you need to play it will happen nearly every time. So basically you can run 3-4 dungeons before a DPS can even que for one or two. I love DPS but I'm willing to switch from it for the ability to play whatever I want whenever I want.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

It's kind of interesting you say that, because tanking is mechanically easier than DPSing.

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Perhaps. But does the gameplay click? For me it doesn't and my skill and other people in the group suffer for it. I would rather not have that burden on other people. Plus I'm averse to toxicity, I know people get mad when a tank or a healer doesn't do their job efficiently and well. I have no wish to deal with that either.

Supply and demand. I took 3 characters to 60, one as a whm, one as a nin, and one as a old. I dealt with the wait times. Become bff with a tank or healer if you don't want to wait an hour.

I go through the story from now on as a healer when solo. No wait times, and when I want to go as a dps I just buddy up with someone.

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Originally Posted by Furiea

That's what I have been saying in multiple threads created by non tanks trying to solve the issue.

I love play tanks, but I can not level other jobs while playing Tanks. give me a way to play tank while leveling other jobs and I will always play tanks. AKA.. exp potion / exp scroll additional reward like Tomestone for Max lvl tanks would be nice too.

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Yeah the suggestion I posted earlier is a slight tweak to things i'd said all the way back in beta when all the duty finder talk started about how dps queues would be so long...

It really is the simplest and most effective way to solve the issue because like I stated earlier it would have a two fold positive effect on dps queue times. so long as those scrolls yielded a decent amount of EXP. i.e 10% of a level

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

What I'd almost suggest at this point is SE release a new healer and tank class and make sure it can NOT be leveled from PotD. Otherwise it will do nothing to solve content queues..

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Adding new tanks and healers won't do anything. Heavensward proved that.
Even Yoshi Said there was the same number of people playing tanks in heavensward with 3 tank jobs as there was in ARR with 2 tank jobs.

Adding Drk didn't increase the number of tanks playing the game at all. all it did was pull players from the warrior and paladin pools. the overall population of tanks was largely unchanged..

so adding more tank jobs won't change anything..

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Originally Posted by Laerune

A solution would be to reward those that play non DPS classes, while not punishing the DPS players.
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2. Tanks and Healers can earn more Tomestones every week then the DPS players.
Its a WIN/WIN.

These options will reward the Tank and Healer, while not punishing the DPS. .

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This actually punishes DPS quite badly. it means that they will always be behind on progression.

if you allow tanks and healers to get say 600 tomestones a week. while dps can only get 450. then tanks and healers are going to gear up that much quicker in 9 weeks as opposed to 12 for example. if those tanks used there tomes from roulettes on dps gear for there raids they'd have a pretty big advantage over dps players that played only dps

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This actually punishes DPS quite badly. it means that they will always be behind on progression.

if you allow tanks and healers to get say 600 tomestones a week. while dps can only get 450. then tanks and healers are going to gear up that much quicker in 9 weeks as opposed to 12 for example. if those tanks used there tomes from roulettes on dps gear for there raids they'd have a pretty big advantage over dps players that played only dps

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Exactly. There needs to be something that drastic to have any hope of balancing these roles. Advantage is fair if you're willing to do something that most others aren't.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This actually punishes DPS quite badly. it means that they will always be behind on progression.

if you allow tanks and healers to get say 600 tomestones a week. while dps can only get 450. then tanks and healers are going to gear up that much quicker in 9 weeks as opposed to 12 for example. if those tanks used there tomes from roulettes on dps gear for there raids they'd have a pretty big advantage over dps players that played only dps

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To be fair, tanks need to upgrade their gear quite often because it matters a lot. That being said if they spend it on DPS then yeah they'd be ahead in progression on DPS characters.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...nimum/de7hr09/

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Advantage is fair if you're willing to do something that most others aren't.

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I really want to steal this for my signature. It is SO ungodly true!

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Originally Posted by Zojha

You can also make content work even with only DPS and it doesn't even need to be less engaging than the usual content, because tanks and healers are only needed for tank&spank. You don't need them for gaze attacks, you don't need them for stack mechanics, nor spread mechanics, nor placement mechanics, nor soaking mechanics, nor telegraphed AoEs, nor standing on platforms, nor add priority, nor meteors, nor any other mechanic where you are supposed to do something specific to avoid damage, because you can always make people avoid ALL damage if the mechanic is done correctly.
One dungeon that's all mechanics and no trinity per patch and the problem would be alleviated. And people who are dead set on the trinity can just queue for the other. That's another way to alleviate things.

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Many of those mechanics would require healing afterwards because you do not actually mitigate all damage by performing them. Also damage output from all souces would have to be nerfed into the ground or a tank or healer would be necessary just because second wind is not enough recovery for an entire encounter.

If you want this model PotD exists but if all content turned into that model I would unsub because it would be so damn boring.

Making two separate play models is needless work when the dev team has much bigger fish to fry.

Tank and healer need larger incentives and those incentives need to grow until this disparity is solved.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I really want to steal this for my signature. It is SO ungodly true!

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Go for it buddy! :)

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Many of those mechanics would require healing afterwards because you do not actually mitigate all damage by performing them. Also damage output from all souces would have to be nerfed into the ground or a tank or healer would be necessary just because second wind is not enough recovery for an entire encounter.

If you want this model PotD exists but if all content turned into that model I would unsub because it would be so damn boring.

Making two separate play models is needless work when the dev team has much bigger fish to fry.

Tank and healer need larger incentives and those incentives need to grow until this disparity is solved.

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There will always be a disparity between tanks/healers and dps queue times. It has always been that way in every MMO. It's the nature of the beast. The only true way to get around it is the Guild Wars 2 method of removing the trinity.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

There will always be a disparity between tanks/healers and dps queue times. It has always been that way in every MMO. It's the nature of the beast. The only true way to get around it is the Guild Wars 2 method of removing the trinity.

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I'm not bothered by the disparity in the slightest as a healer main but it seems like DPS players are and from what I can tell in this game it's all about numbers. Either make a tangible difference in the rewards people receive or accept that this difference will continue.

I don't see a problem that needs fixing. If everyone wants DPS classes on top of DPS classes on top of DPS classes, then you take everything that comes with it. We don't need to turn the entire game into a giant PoTD-style zergfest or slap 10 DPS in an instance for every 1 tank/healer.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I'm not bothered by the disparity in the slightest as a healer main but it seems like DPS players are and from what I can tell in this game it's all about numbers. Either make a tangible difference in the rewards people receive or accept that this difference will continue.

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As a Dps player, I accepted this reality of being a DPS a long time ago. Most of the DPS I know have done the same. Only a small minority complain about it.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

This actually punishes DPS quite badly. it means that they will always be behind on progression.

if you allow tanks and healers to get say 600 tomestones a week. while dps can only get 450. then tanks and healers are going to gear up that much quicker in 9 weeks as opposed to 12 for example. if those tanks used there tomes from roulettes on dps gear for there raids they'd have a pretty big advantage over dps players that played only dps

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Make items of the same slot that you already own the items for in a different role cost less.

X slot of slaying, maiming, casting and aiming become Y% cheaper if you own X slot of Healing or Fending.
Eg: If you own Veritial Bracers of Fending, Veritial Bracers of Aiming are now sold by the vendor for 20% less tomestones.

End result: You must buy the tank gear to gain benefit, but by buying the tank gear first you can gear up your DPS job significantly faster as your second job.

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

while I love the idea of being a "good noodle", what if instead, they just allowed the "role in need" to have 2 earnable daily roulette rewards per roulette? Like, a tank does 50/60 roulette, gets their daily reward, then is allowed 1 more if they queue again as the same role. On paper, tanks/healers would essentially queue twice and allow more DPS to get their daily roulettes off. (is this a good noodle or a bad noodle?)

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Love this idea. IMO I would queue twice as a tank. More XP.

Another Idea that was brewing in the back of my mind: provide an XP token for the in need role. that token can then be applied to whatever class you would like (switch to said class, use token, BAM experience!) it can be scaled to level just like they do the beast quests and such. As a main tank who enjoys playing plenty of DPS alts, I would enjoy this as it gives you reason to play tank more often to benefit your DPS, and doesn't penalize DPS players at all.

EDIT: Just a note on 'penalizing' DPS players. I do agree that any endgame bonus wouldn't work, as it would penalize pure DPS players. Tanks would gear up their DPS classes far faster then a pure DPS class could. Not a good idea. but XP tokens are far more neutral, they can be applied to heal roles as well as DPS roles (even tank roles, level your tank faster), and even at level cap you would have the bonus to give to a DPS alt class. Now that I think about it, the dual roulette would also impact the tomes negatively. I think the XP token is a better idea, and far more flexible and useful then any item based rewards (which really are one shot and your done).