Put VIT back in Tank Damage Calculation.

First SE takes away my mitigation options with stoneskin/bloodbath, and now they gutted our damage too with the stat changes.

Upsetting.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

SE wants tanks to be tanks and not dps ^^

so far i didnt have much trouble holding aggro

conclusion : deal with the changes that ur not dps and should not have as much dps as a dps class :)

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Geee I REMEMBER THIS ONE QUOTE BACK IN HEAVENWARD WITH IT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.

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Originally Posted by Phixx

I foresee only about a 6-8% increase in mainstat disparity over what is current with fending accessories.

Data to back me up:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

The equations to calculate future stats were derived in Excel and I couldn't figure out how to show them in Google sheets.

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The relative increase in the difference may seem small, but take a look at the raw numbers. 3950 Strength on a DPS vs 2911 on a Tank; just imagine how much of a difference that is in DPS. The gap in attack power more than doubles. The highest I seen a tank DPS in 4.0 is in the 2k-2.5k range while I have seen DPS in the 4k-5k range. That's essentially double with a 1.5k-3k difference; that 6-8% increase in disparity added on to how those ranges and the gap between them are going to rise as we gear up, the difference between the two is going to be huge.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Well if they want to keep tank damage down, why not have VIT increase enmity generation for all tank jobs?

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Because then Shirk would make sense on an Off Tank instead of a Healer or Dps like Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

SE wants tanks to be tanks and not dps ^^

so far i didnt have much trouble holding aggro

conclusion : deal with the changes that ur not dps and should not have as much dps as a dps class :)

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But you said in another thread there isnt 1 way to play.... Lol you never fail to amuse me.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

But you said in another thread there isnt 1 way to play.... Lol you never fail to amuse me.

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hi :P there nice to meet you ^^

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

SE wants tanks to be tanks and not dps ^^

so far i didnt have much trouble holding aggro

conclusion : deal with the changes that ur not dps and should not have as much dps as a dps class :)

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If that was the case Rage of Halone would've been removed from the game and Royal Authority and Total Eclipse would have the enmity bonus.

tbh i think dps players need to start using their enmity reducers more. My g/f is a main tank drk. She loves tenacity, and melds it. her anima even had high tenacity. And had no real damage issue. Her issue is enmity. No matter how often she spams unleash or abyssal drain, she still looses hate to a sam rdm blm mnk nin. More so if they are solo killing in an aoe situation, and don't use their enmity kills. ultimatum sucks as it is just baby flash.

all dps have enmity reducers or skills that switch enmity. My g/f and I rarely see ninja use shade walker or smoke screen, we rarely see rdms use Lucid dreaming or diversion.
People expect too much of tanks, they need tanks with high deeps, tanks to tank no damage, and tanks who never loose hate. But no one is stepping up to be a teamplayer and helping out.

thats my 2 gil from watching my g.f play. Bad enough ppl are getting poor attitudes in dungeons but thats for another thread.


in my honest opinion, tanks need their damage to scale with vit, every class has their damage scaled to their main state, why not tanks scale with vit? it with help them gerate more aggro, making it easier to hold hate.

if not, lower the enmity dps generate. tanks gave enmity+ skills... yet they do next to nothing unless spammed. My g/f was worried this was gonna happen. And is dealing with the flack ppl have in df over the changes.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

snip.....

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I agree. Holding aggro on enemies when dps are each focusing on one is more difficult these days. Can't spam moves fast enough at times.

Yeah... I was seeing it my self.. my damage as tank is so weak... NO FUN playing SB or any other content like that! So I switched to ilvl270 STR Accessories on my lv60 Tanks! And the damage output raised ALOT with +400 STR! My auto Atk on Paladin alone raised from 700 to 1000. Clemenz also got alot stronger(from 5000 to 7500), not to mention all other atk skills that get ALOT stronger! >.> Im gonna use that set till they fixed VIT back! I dont care if I ruin other party there run cuz my HP is 10k lesser! Why bother with VIT Accessories if they only boost HP pool and nothing else....

If anything I'll be staying equipped with a few str accs until this gets fixed, its rather annoying to lose aggro to a sam or rdm going crazy when they are doing their job whilst i'm in tank stance. I try to multi focus targets in dungeons and even still one of them is probably going to rip off me. Yes i'm using my abilities i'm no idiot, try holding aggro against a good rdm and sam who are going off on two different targets, tell me how easy it is unless you spam your 123 123 123 123 forever.

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Originally Posted by Deathshiro

If anything I'll be staying equipped with a few str accs until this gets fixed, its rather annoying to lose aggro to a sam or rdm going crazy when they are doing their job whilst i'm in tank stance. I try to multi focus targets in dungeons and even still one of them is probably going to rip off me. Yes i'm using my abilities i'm no idiot, try holding aggro against a good rdm and sam who are going off on two different targets, tell me how easy it is unless you spam your 123 123 123 123 forever.

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Was 65 and had a 68-69? SAM in a Ruby Palace run and even my BB combos were just barely keeping up, lol. The gear difference wasn't too great but SAM hits like the dreadnought. I'm a little concerned how shaky it might get once we're a patches in gear level and someone decides to level a Tank.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Yeah... I was seeing it my self.. my damage as tank is so weak... NO FUN playing SB or any other content like that! So I switched to ilvl270 STR Accessories on my lv60 Tanks! And the damage output raised ALOT with +400 STR! My auto Atk on Paladin alone raised from 700 to 1000. Clemenz also got alot stronger(from 5000 to 7500), not to mention all other atk skills that get ALOT stronger! >.> Im gonna use that set till they fixed VIT back! I dont care if I ruin other party there run cuz my HP is 10k lesser! Why bother with VIT Accessories if they only boost HP pool and nothing else....

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Even though I was an advocate of Strength Tanks back in 3.0, I can't condone the attitude of not caring about your party. I feel like strength tanks who just went strength without worrying about proper survival were the main reason why SE is probably trying to curb tank dps. Dps comes second to maintaining aggro and mitigation; the main complaint is how the cut to our DPS looks like it will have negative impacts on our ability to hold aggro in the future.

I feel like this kind of altitude of not caring about your party will only hurt our movement rather than aid it. It's one thing to adapt but still have complaints and concerns, but to use lower ilvl gear with the wrong mindset and rather selfish reasons is something I can't condone.

Tanks are tanks first and damage dealers second; if our ability to tank wasn't being threatened by the current state, I wouldn't even be making this argument.

If they want to lock us out of STR accessories, at least lock the level 60 and below rings too, geez.

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Originally Posted by Rikoooooo

If they want to lock us out of STR accessories, at least lock the level 60 and below rings too, geez.

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This. As it is, the 270 slaying accessories are going to be bis for the entire expansion. We're back to gordias where the only thing that matters is hp thresholds and once you meet those than it's str gear all the way.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

snip.

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id say the opposite, tanks who sit in tank stance and dont try to contribute as much dps as possible and play it safe because they arent skilled enough to dps and mitigate the damage at the same time are the people who dont care about the pt in my eyes. I only put on str accessories after I knew both ex primals fairly well and now I help my pt even more by helping them push dps and avoid enrage timers, because lets be honest pf dps arent that great most of the time and if both tanks and both healers have the mentality of "ima tank so i only tank and im a healer so I only heal" youre hitting enrage timer

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Originally Posted by Tankstuff

id say the opposite, tanks who sit in tank stance and dont try to contribute as much dps as possible and play it safe because they arent skilled enough to dps and mitigate the damage at the same time are the people who dont care about the pt in my eyes. I only put on str accessories after I knew both ex primals fairly well and now I help my pt even more by helping them push dps and avoid enrage timers, because lets be honest pf dps arent that great most of the time and if both tanks and both healers have the mentality of "ima tank so i only tank and im a healer so I only heal" youre hitting enrage timer

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I have no issue with str tanks that properly mitigate damage, in fact I love them. More power to them I say. It is just the ones that do it to selfishly increase their damage numbers without care towards actually tanking that I don't like.

Though if they aren't skilled enough, I wouldn't say they don't care about the party. If someone is trying to play it safe so they can learn, I think they are caring. I think many of them want to optimize more, they just need some help in doing so.

My choice would be to add STR to Tank accessories but something needs to change, upsetting that i know it will take months to get anything changed.

The reason behind the Vit removal from tank damage is because vit no longer is affected by the death penalty. I know, it doesn't excuse the emnity issues, but theres your reason. the devs just need to adjust the tank stance emnity multiplier, and the problem is fixed.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

tbh i think dps players need to start using their enmity reducers more. My g/f is a main tank drk. She loves tenacity, and melds it. her anima even had high tenacity. And had no real damage issue. Her issue is enmity. No matter how often she spams unleash or abyssal drain, she still looses hate to a sam rdm blm mnk nin. More so if they are solo killing in an aoe situation, and don't use their enmity kills. ultimatum sucks as it is just baby flash.

all dps have enmity reducers or skills that switch enmity. My g/f and I rarely see ninja use shade walker or smoke screen, we rarely see rdms use Lucid dreaming or diversion.
People expect too much of tanks, they need tanks with high deeps, tanks to tank no damage, and tanks who never loose hate. But no one is stepping up to be a teamplayer and helping out.

thats my 2 gil from watching my g.f play. Bad enough ppl are getting poor attitudes in dungeons but thats for another thread.


in my honest opinion, tanks need their damage to scale with vit, every class has their damage scaled to their main state, why not tanks scale with vit? it with help them gerate more aggro, making it easier to hold hate.

if not, lower the enmity dps generate. tanks gave enmity+ skills... yet they do next to nothing unless spammed. My g/f was worried this was gonna happen. And is dealing with the flack ppl have in df over the changes.

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This right here. If DPS is everyone's responsibility, then so should enmity. We all have tools now for enmity just like we do for DPS. I don't mind helping DPS in Sword Oath, so show we are together and hit that GCD please.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The reason behind the Vit removal from tank damage is because vit no longer is affected by the death penalty. I know, it doesn't excuse the emnity issues, but theres your reason. the devs just need to adjust the tank stance emnity multiplier, and the problem is fixed.

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Damage off of STR....
Enmity off of VIT...

Problem solved, all non-tanks classes have inferior VIT by a bit so it would scale well, hell would maybe even lower the enmity issues for hard hitting classes if the Tank is good.

or they can just go back to the vit/str combination cause people who only used vit in HW had the exact same problem trouble with enmity that was the reason for the 0.45 split on vit and str. It nerfed the full str tanks and buffed the full vit tanks and people who were smart and optimized there gear could use a bit of both to maximise there gains. There was nothing wrong with it as good dps still outpace tanks and tanks did enough dmg to contribute massively to raid. Right now we just have a pile of garbage that goes hurrr duhh spam enmity combos which any retard can do and its boring as fuck in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The reason behind the Vit removal from tank damage is because vit no longer is affected by the death penalty. I know, it doesn't excuse the emnity issues, but theres your reason. the devs just need to adjust the tank stance emnity multiplier, and the problem is fixed.

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It's far more organic to have tank DPS scale with damage dealer DPS than buffing aggro modifiers every time, but meh, we'll see what SE does.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Or... just add a token amount of strength to the vit accessories. Some like 50% of the vit cap would be totally fine, if they're absolutely dead set on making our damage lower than it was previously.

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Or you could add a new stat that contributes to attack power, healing and damage resistance...you could call it Tenacity, you could tell everyone it's the main tanking stat. Then you could completely break the scaling of that new stat so that Tanks are left in the state they are now with the stupid STR meta back.

I'm thinking a STR/TEN combination for attack power makes more sense than the STR/VIT one - always assuming Tenacity get's fixed.

They need to fix tenacity of at least acknowledge that it is broken

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

as good dps still outpace tanks.

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Yeah it took the TOP of the DPS players to out-DPS a tank that also had mitigation and HP. You don't see a problem with this?

There may be some issues -- there always are with expacs -- but most of this whining seems to be tank players upset that they are not ridiculously overpowered now and have to actually try to manage agro instead of mindlessly smashing 1 button while pumping huge out damage numbers.

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Originally Posted by Bluejay

but most of this whining seems to be tank players upset that they are not ridiculously overpowered now and have to actually try to manage agro instead of mindlessly smashing 1 button while pumping huge out damage numbers.

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Because mindlessly spamming Heavy Swing - Skull Sunder - Butcher's Block or Overpower is so much better, right?

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Originally Posted by Bluejay

Yeah it took the TOP of the DPS players to out-DPS a tank that also had mitigation and HP. You don't see a problem with this?

There may be some issues -- there always are with expacs -- but most of this whining seems to be tank players upset that they are not ridiculously overpowered now and have to actually try to manage agro instead of mindlessly smashing 1 button while pumping huge out damage numbers.

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wait, they could do it with one button before? Pretty sure they are upset because they are using less buttons now, and those buttons are less effective. They didn't try to make them fun at all.

Except threat generation was increase on many abilities, it's not purely based on damage, they are just making the steps towards normal mmos, where damage doesn't define your aggro.

Stop making stuff up because you want to go more dps.

K thx byeeeeee.

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Originally Posted by Azreal

Except threat generation was increase on many abilities.

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Source?

"Stop making stuff up"

EDIT: I admit I was wrong. However, Warrior and Paladin did not get buffs to their AoE aggro generation, which is where I've seen tanks have problems. I don't think anyone was complaining about single target aggro.

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Originally Posted by Azreal

Except threat generation was increase on many abilities, it's not purely based on damage, they are just making the steps towards normal mmos, where damage doesn't define your aggro.

Stop making stuff up because you want to go more dps.

K thx byeeeeee.

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Except tanks from both the Western and Japanese communities are reporting issues with the current state. The current enmity increases won't mean much when the base value is low and the damage gap between Tanks and DPS become even higher. Right now, DPS can do upwards of 4-5k DPS, the highest I have seen a tank is in the 2-3k range. If that DPS doesn't use enmity reducers, they will likely begin ripping off the tank unless the tank mindlessly spams aggro generation and this is just at the moment before raid gear becomes a thing. Imagine in dungeons, at later ilvls when the gap is larger and if the DPS has full raid gear while the tank just meets minimal ilvl.

No one is making things up, this is a serious concern.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Source?

"Stop making stuff up"

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Um...the patch notes/job guide for the updated jobs actually say so.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

Except tanks from both the Western and Japanese communities are reporting issues with the current state. The current enmity increases won't mean much when the base value is low and the damage gap between Tanks and DPS become even higher. Right now, DPS can do upwards of 4-5k DPS, the highest I have seen a tank is in the 2-3k range. If that DPS doesn't use enmity reducers, they will likely begin ripping off the tank unless the tank mindlessly spams aggro generation and this is just at the moment before raid gear becomes a thing. Imagine in dungeons, at later ilvls when the gap is larger and if the DPS has full raid gear while the tank just meets minimal ilvl.

No one is making things up, this is a serious concern.

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Um...could it be that too many tanks got too used to running in DPS stance all the time rather than treating DPS stance as a luxury? Could it be that many tanks took their ability to hold aggro for granted and forgot that their primary responsibility is maintaining aggro? When I stepped into the first SB dungeon that's how it felt to me, it was like going back to ARR and hitting Brayflox in average gear. Every now and again, people should go minimum ilvl and try out dungeons to remind themselves how they are meant to play their jobs, or just never get used to the luxury of overgearing by 50+ ilvls.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Um...could it be that too many tanks got too used to running in DPS stance all the time rather than treating DPS stance as a luxury? Could it be that many tanks took their ability to hold aggro for granted and forgot that their primary responsibility is maintaining aggro? When I stepped into the first SB dungeon that's how it felt to me, it was like going back to ARR and hitting Brayflox in average gear. Every now and again, people should go minimum ilvl and try out dungeons to remind themselves how they are meant to play their jobs, or just never get used to the luxury of overgearing by 50+ ilvls.

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Soooooooooooooooo basically what you're suggesting is for tanks to ignore 2/3 of their skillset. Oh wait, you're a Paladin, so clearly you must be doing that anyway.

As someone who has leveled a Paladin to 70, never went to Sword Oath once while dungeon tanking (even in HW), and constantly struggled to hold threat against nearly every sort of DPS no matter what manner of threat skills I used, I can easily assure you that tanking most SB content right now is worse than tanking Brayflox at minimum ilvl (which I have indeed done). I've been seeing this on the opposite end of it too while playing Red Mage and having to wait ten seconds then pop Diversion, spam Scatter and do a few Moulinets before having to use Lucid Dream because I've ripped off all but one mob off the tank.

With rising gear levels, it's only going to get worse unless devs do something about it.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Soooooooooooooooo basically what you're suggesting is for tanks to ignore 2/3 of their skillset. Oh wait, you're a Paladin, so clearly you must be doing that anyway.

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Great way to reply, shall I leap right in and insult you as well? The point being made is that tanks are first an foremost there to hold aggro, doing DPS and anything else is icing on the cake. If you are having a hard time doing your basic role, then it's time to scale back on the optional elements of what you are doing and focus on the core elements.

As someone who's played Paladin since ARR launched, I don't give a crap for your opinion of me. Maybe though if you weren't so wedded to your opinions you could understand that the essence of playing well is to understand your core role, make sure you nail it, and then expand from there. You appear to want to start from an all out DPS point of view (of tanking) and pair back until you manage to hold aggro in most cases. That's fine, but no one should be complaining about holding aggro if the are in turn focusing on DPS and tanking in DPS stance.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Um...could it be that too many tanks got too used to running in DPS stance all the time rather than treating DPS stance as a luxury? Could it be that many tanks took their ability to hold aggro for granted and forgot that their primary responsibility is maintaining aggro? When I stepped into the first SB dungeon that's how it felt to me, it was like going back to ARR and hitting Brayflox in average gear. Every now and again, people should go minimum ilvl and try out dungeons to remind themselves how they are meant to play their jobs, or just never get used to the luxury of overgearing by 50+ ilvls.

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It's not that tanks got used to running in DPS Stance; I've been throwing out 3-4 Abyssal Drains at the start of each pull in Grit and I can still see DPS starting to rip aggro off me. I can often keep it down by throwing another Abyssal Drain but that is a band aid fix when the issue will get worse and worse as ilvl increases and the damage gap between Tanks and DPS increases. Right now it may be manageable, but this is a serious long term issue as DPS get primary stat damage scaling from their accessories while tanks do not. This isn't because people got used to tanking in their DPS Stance, this is because the Vit+Str damage formula for tanks should have been kept or at least adjusted so that Vit increases the amount of enmity generated. It is not an issue of people getting used to the luxury of overgearing.

Single target enmity generation is fine at the moment, but AoE enmity generation has a problem that is rearing its head. This isn't just the Western Community asking for changes, but both the Western and Japanese communities, and given how much more serious the Japanese community can be (like believing that Duty Finder is not for first time runs but to get a quick clear when you're busy, having large amounts of party finder groups dedicated to teaching newbies, and the 2ch blacklist), there should be enough precedent for some changes to be expected.

Good thing we can still equip the Proto Ultima Strenghts accessories, to spite all the "Tanks shouldn't do damage" shitters.
And even if they find out they can't kick us since they'll have to wait an eternity for another tank.
Deal with it ^-~

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

It's not that tanks got used to running in DPS Stance; I've been throwing out 3-4 Abyssal Drains at the start of each pull in Grit and I can still see DPS starting to rip aggro off me. I can often keep it down by throwing another Abyssal Drain but that is a band aid fix when the issue will get worse and worse as ilvl increases and the damage gap between Tanks and DPS increases. Right now it may be manageable, but this is a serious long term issue as DPS get primary stat damage scaling from their accessories while tanks do not. This isn't because people got used to tanking in their DPS Stance, this is because the Vit+Str damage formula for tanks should have been kept or at least adjusted so that Vit increases the amount of enmity generated. It is not an issue of people getting used to the luxury of overgearing.

Single target enmity generation is fine at the moment, but AoE enmity generation has a problem that is rearing its head. This isn't just the Western Community asking for changes, but both the Western and Japanese communities, and given how much more serious the Japanese community can be (like believing that Duty Finder is not for first time runs but to get a quick clear when you're busy, having large amounts of party finder groups dedicated to teaching newbies, and the 2ch blacklist), there should be enough precedent for some changes to be expected.

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Which DPS are ripping hate? I've only had specific trouble with RDM going hog wild, or RDM & SAM splitting targets, Even then, flash spame and rotating targets keeps things sensible.

From my point of view, there are some balance issues, but non of that alters the basic point which is that we can hold aggro, if we focus on it. It might now be exactly how we want to play though. AoE aggro management would be OK if DPS would coordinate instead of doing their best to burn down different targets from each other.

I don't disagree about the need for changes to our ATTACK formulation, and enmity boosts are always nice, but so far, apart from the kind of rude awakening at the start, I've been able to hold hate pretty solidly.

Last thing. I understand that going back to the VIT/STR pairing for attack strength is suggested since it was that way before. But I think that we'd be better off leaving VIT as an HP/resistance kind of stat, and instead looking to Tenacity. A 50/50 split with Tenacity and STR would encourage tanks to use their role statistic more, and stack materia for it. Since it does 3 different things for us, that would appear to me to be the best way to go - but based on the player testing so far it's almost negligible in impact and would need something like a 5 fold increase in impact in order to have any real impact.

Seems to me the problem is more player meta than it is job/stat changes. Seems SE is moving SB away from the "everyone is AE deepz" speed running meta of HW, and moving towards a proper group dynamic where enmity staying on tank IS A GROUP EFFORT. Used to be everyone goes HAM, and tanks clown on how easy enmity is, even undergeared, gimped, 5+ levels lower than DPS, wielding wooden spoon, uphill both ways, always in DPS stance, etc. Now holding aggro is harder and DPS have to actually watch their own enmity meters. OMFG, the horror!!

Enmity on tank is a group effort. All SB is doing is reminding everyone of that.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Even then, flash spame and rotating targets keeps things sensible.

From my point of view, there are some balance issues, but non of that alters the basic point which is that we can hold aggro, if we focus on it. It might now be exactly how we want to play though. AoE aggro management would be OK if DPS would coordinate instead of doing their best to burn down different targets from each other.

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Well that's just it, isn't it? I like tanking as tanking, I like the role, but when I can only do my BB combo with an OP in-between and SC whenever its really bad, it's not much fun and a little nerve wracking. Like a Healer that can only pop their primary and secondary cures because the tank is taking so much damage they have no room for much else. Sure, in all technicality we are operating within our designed parameters, but you can't expect everyone to say "This is fun."

And we also should not have to rely on DPS coordinating themselves. Be this a multiplayer game, but in PUG content it's bad design to have to fall on such reliance.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Enmity on tank is a group effort. All SB is doing is reminding everyone of that.

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Will be great if you can convince every DPS to do so, but until then expecting people to deal with it until someone who is not them gets their job together is a way bad way to think.

It's not just tank. Look at SCH and all of those fairy nerfs. It's pretty clear to me that SE wants tanks and healers to stop pretending like they're a DPS class.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

It's not just tank. Look at SCH and all of those fairy nerfs. It's pretty clear to me that SE wants tanks and healers to stop pretending like they're a DPS class.

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More like they want people to stop playing tanks and healers.