Dragoons... how do you feel post 4.0?

Personally I think then new combat system is excellent, specially for DRG. DMG output is nice if your properly geared only thing is you have to9 keep up with team members movements. Takes practice and if you can use sprint now into your rotation on certain Main boss moves it makes them much easier.

How are you guys using GK? I'm constantly in situations where GK is on cool down when I get 4 eyes. Do you guys hold your GK, if so, when?

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

How are you guys using GK? I'm constantly in situations where GK is on cool down when I get 4 eyes. Do you guys hold your GK, if so, when?

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Yes you hold it for a few seconds and then u use it, then b4b is up few seconds later, which gives you double nastrond in b4b. Then next one will be without b4b but will be with sight.

Just so you don't take my word for granted on the 6 LotD, here is video proof. A few things to note: I'm playing on ps4, my router is in another room so I'm playing via Wi-fi and I have never been able to double weave without some degree of clipping OUTSIDE instances.
Also have another video where I did better I took a lot of stupids decisions this second round but I can't post because I forgot to change the chat channel and my fc mates didn't want their names on the vid. So sorry about that. Also sorry about the popoto recording quality, I have not much space to spare on my ps4 and cannot record to max quality :(
Geirskogul double weaves fine into Nastrond in instances for me, the only real problem is Mirage Dive. Same with Dragon Sight macro, double weaves just fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o4SGnuQanY

I was thinking about this too, a lot of people are thinking stuns and silence will be in future mechanics. If this is the case, we may not be able to even use SS dive to build eyes. This would delay our Lotd even more, I wonder what that will do for our dps.

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Originally Posted by Gravton

I was thinking about this too, a lot of people are thinking stuns and silence will be in future mechanics. If this is the case, we may not be able to even use SS dive to build eyes. This would delay our Lotd even more, I wonder what that will do for our dps.

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Given that Long Arms - might get the name wrong, it's the thing that should negate bump/projection on you - don't even work on current primals, I'm not afraid that we would have to delay SSD for a stun because it wouldn't work anyway.

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Originally Posted by Erys

Just so you don't take my word for granted on the 6 LotD, here is video proof. A few things to note: I'm playing on ps4, my router is in another room so I'm playing via Wi-fi and I have never been able to double weave without some degree of clipping OUTSIDE instances.
Also have another video where I did better I took a lot of stupids decisions this second round but I can't post because I forgot to change the chat channel and my fc mates didn't want their names on the vid. So sorry about that. Also sorry about the popoto recording quality, I have not much space to spare on my ps4 and cannot record to max quality :(
Geirskogul double weaves fine into Nastrond in instances for me, the only real problem is Mirage Dive. Same with Dragon Sight macro, double weaves just fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o4SGnuQanY

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The animation is locking so hard on mirage dive, so you can't double weave it sadly. Nastrond and geirskogul is fine yes.

I'm not max level yet but I can kinda see what they are going for, with the exception of dragon sight which I just hate. It feels like the only part of this game I feel held back using a controller vs a keyboard and mouse. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with all the changes, but it's always going to bug me knowing there's a move that I could objectively do better if I give up the controller.

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Originally Posted by EvilMonkeyg1

I'm not max level yet but I can kinda see what they are going for, with the exception of dragon sight which I just hate. It feels like the only part of this game I feel held back using a controller vs a keyboard and mouse. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with all the changes, but it's always going to bug me knowing there's a move that I could objectively do better if I give up the controller.

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The macro that targets the closest pc, casts sight and targets your last enemy works pretty well actually. Will get a few misfires occasionally but its decent.

Kind of annoying playing other jobs and see their secondary resource just sit there out of combat and not degrade.

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Originally Posted by Khel

Kind of annoying playing other jobs and see their secondary resource just sit there out of combat and not degrade.

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Yeah I felt the same when I was playing NIN.

Don't quote me but is DRG the only class that ties both resources together? And it has a 70 second ramp up time? And it's one of the weakest dps next to the 2 ranged physical that are pretty much support dps while having positionals and having to be in melee range? (Yes I'm projecting, but I just realized that this was the case. DRG is an all or nothing class, similar to what MNK used to be when it only had greased lightning I even find myself pulling mobs in dungeons just so I can keep eyes.)

I'm speechless, I feel that I did a bad decision to cap Dragoon to 70 first.
I tho DRG at lvl 70 will be much way better, but I'm really disappointed now xD

What we got in 4.0 Extra from 3.5? Nothing much beside Mirage Dive.

Life of the Dragon? it's a useless ability, since we need 4 Mirage Dive and to get them we have to preform Jump 30s cd and Spineshatter Dive 60s cd.
Technically, 90s average to get Life of The Dragon Aura, plus it doesn't do anything new comparing to Blood of The Dragon in 3.5.
Just allow u to use Nastrond? Nastrond is Geirskogul from 3.5 just with 120 Extra Potency and you can just do 3 of it max while in Life of the Dragon.

What extra things Life of The Dragon do beside Nastrond? Nothing xD so we struggle for 90s or 70s as others says. Just to get 3 extra 320 potency? Why it can't give us Extra % damage? or something special beside Nastrond?

What is worse, there is no way to keep Life of the Dragon up... It's pain with no gain.

Also,

What is the use of Heavy Thrust? just the 15% Damage Buff? just remove the Skill and merge the buff with another rotation skill like SAM Jinpu Skill.

Jinpu is one of their main skills to use, and it already give them 10% damage each time they use it. Why we as DRG have to go out of our rotation for the 15% Extra damage? Just merge Heavy Thrust with Vorpal Thrust.

Heavy Thrust is part of DRG rotation. Being outside a combo doesn't mean that it's "out of our rotation".

After playing through level 70 and trying to get used with the new skill like lotd, iam starting to get annoyed with botd skill which almost in every fight i need to active this skill just so i can kill a mob faster because without botd i lost some extra potency.

Overall the rotation is definitely smoother now and not a clutter mess like pre 4.0 but, i wish they just make botd skill is a part of other skill, maybe meld together with chaos thrust combo or such.

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Originally Posted by gumas

iam starting to get annoyed with botd skill which almost in every fight i need to active this skill just so i can kill a mob faster because without botd i lost some extra potency

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https://puu.sh/wu3VB/203ba0abbf.png

Overall I like the new stuff, rotation feels smooth, Mirage Dive is cool, it is more damage bonus on a jump than Power Surge is, and it works on every jump skill that isn't DFD.

My two bones to pick with the class are Dragon sight, which needs to be microed to be even useable, and it still fails sometimes and LotD which feels lackluster. Nastrond is a good skill, but getting only the nastrond as a reward for getting in LotD doesn't feel enough for all the time that it takes to build it up. Would be great to have a minor damage buff during it, or have it buff FC or WT or something among these lines to make it more rewarding, and make it so DRG isn't the weakest melee DPS damage-wise.

I dunno if they make it so eyes don't disappear when BOTD drops it should help a bit. Not sure if that will be OP. So much buildup can be ruined by fight mechanics. Mirage dive needs its animation lock reduced and dragon sight needs its range increased.

Or make it so dragon sight roots your target to the ground, that would sure make us popular ;)

Feels pretty awful to me... But then again, I love having bosses/primals transition into another phase when it makes most sense to use Life of the Dragon. Love not being able to use dragon sight on a dps when you run with ranged only. Love not being able to use dragon sight at all in the open world unless I bring out the chocobo. Love all the skill speed we get that starts to throw off blood for blood timings. Being the weakest melee even after disembowel is factored in with a bard or machinist is also pretty sick.

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Originally Posted by KidSerge

Feels pretty awful to me... But then again, I love having bosses/primals transition into another phase when it makes most sense to use Life of the Dragon. Love not being able to use dragon sight on a dps when you run with ranged only. Love not being able to use dragon sight at all in the open world unless I bring out the chocobo. Love all the skill speed we get that starts to throw off blood for blood timings. Being the weakest melee even after disembowel is factored in with a bard or machinist is also pretty sick.

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And the fact that you're going to only have one or the other, IDK why they nerfed it but they nerfed it too late. This is a fix for a problem that existed in the past and that was going to get fixed naturally with the expansion.

Life of the dragon's wind up is much too large for the payoff. Jump potency's should be increased significantly, or cooldowns should be cut in half for jump skills during this phase to account for the time it takes to get into it. So far, mechanics and phase changes happen right as we would be about to enter LotD. This could be fixed by allowing DFD to proc Dive Ready, or by reducing the cool down of Jump. Mirage Dive's animation lock is horrible and should be reduced significantly so we can double weave other non jump OCD's with it.

Dragon Sight is a joke, and feels incredibly clunky. The benefit to us should be increased moderately or the range of the tether should be increased to a minimum of 10 yalms. Having dragon sight auto target the nearest party member would remove the clunkiness of the skill and allow people to position themselves effectively before using it, without having to worry about trying to use it on a target that is out of range. Thats just off the top, but I would have preferred to see Jump changed instead of Geirksogul. Nastrond is not that great, considering what a hassle it is to enter LotD and how short lived it is. I hope to see at least some of this addressed before Omega

^that obvious huh? I swear how some people can make it so real =/

Square really does need to rework potency on actions at the very least. It is a huge fail to have a DRG weak as or weaker DPS as a support class!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...46/unknown.png

At around ilvl 311-12 (Full V melded crit/direct hit), that's a problem too.

Rotation got even more complex. One of my biggest problems with BoTD was how easy it fell off due to boss phase change or going untargetable. And it's still has the same problem even with lance mastery. Doing Susano EX makes me scream since you waste so much of the BoTD timer going in and out of his giant phase. In an ala mihgo today I got destroyed by a SMN on bosses despite having near perfect uptime. Simply put the effort put into doing the rotation does not give rewarding DPS.

Potency buffs would work, getting into LotD faster would work, making BoTD into a trait so we're always in it (yeah crazy option there), we certianly need some love.

Also scrap Dragon Sight. That is the worst skill ever. The class that jumps, bounces and weaves around like mad gets a freaking short tether! Who came up with this? Who thought this was a great idea? Putting a tiny range limited on a melee class is beyond stupid. The MNK's Brotherhood ability is 15y, more than twice what Dragon Sight is.

After having played with most of the other dps classes in dungeons, it really feels like we are bottom of the barrel in terms of aoe dps as well, and why is it that all our shit has to be line AoEs. Even though I appreciate the removal of RoT in many ways. Sometimes having the option to hit around you was needed.

Honestly the overall theme for DRG this expansion seems to be max effort/low reward. It's really a massive bummer.

This post on reddit greatly detailed pretty much all the main issues with DRG and highlighted some rather good solutions.


https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/6jijbi/i_feel_dragoon_needs_help_with_transitions/

I'm just back since yesterday and I did not take time yet to see all the differences but seeing the skills, the first thing I said was something like "it looks really too much complicated now" I guess I was right... This has always been my preferred class, I don't want to stop playing because they messed up with it.

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Originally Posted by Braneric

Doesn\\'t both Jump and SSD trigger Dive Ready?

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Hi. Yes. You're correct. My problem was figuring out what even proc'd Dive Ready. I am on PS4, and no where in the Tool Tip does it state that it procs Dive Ready. I had to look at SE's job guide online to learn. I thought I was going to lose my mind after reading each Tool Tip umpteen times. o_O

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

1000 chars

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I feel like they are trying to define their own type of dragoon (lorewise atleast) since the ffxiv dragoon is less on dragon slaying techniques and more on dragon harnessing techniques. This seems to explain why all of the abilities since 50 have been some sort of draconic shit as opposed to jump stuff. The only thing to do with jumps since 50 is BotD buffing jumps but its main potency came from gierskogul.

I agree with all your points though. Disembowel should be made back to 10% and maybe the effect of B4B is doubled while under LotD? Or just put back to normal seeing how MNKS get to keep their super internal release even if it ties in with their core mechanic. LotD is too shallow tbh especially for our end game and also how long it takes to generate.

It kinda makes me sad because Jumps were what got me into the class.

Anyway everything I think has been said already. It's clunky, slow, unrewarding and frustrating. I was so happy with DRG at level 68. It was so beautifully fluid. Then the level 70 skill attacked.

I'm just going to add that there are fat robots in a certain dungeon... i think it's the level 67 one where if i use Dragon Sight on the tank I literally can't dps the back of this robot because it is THAT fat and the tether range is that short, which means I am forced to chose to keep Dragon Sight buff or get punished for missing positionals. SE is literally forcing us into a lose-lose situation. Lose personal dps or lose utility.
Also I keep being paired with ranged DPS in dungeons. Not only they are always at the far back of the field (clearly the Vault has not taught them anything) but the few times they get close, they seem to freak out with the tether and just keep running way. (I may have stopped DPSing to chase a Bard one time while Dragon Sight was up. It was too funny. I'm sorry Bard.)

Hey, at least there is some intertainment value to be had I guess? (which does not compensate the aneurysm popping stress of tanks being too slow and you being on a timer or a boss just going invuln for ages)

I honestly agree with the whole keep the eyes while Blood of the Dragon is not up. you just can't build more (which you wouldn't be able to regardless cuz you need Blood of the Dragon to be up to get Dive Ready) or i don't know... make buff timers freeze when bosses go into a cutscene attack?

So I finally catched up on gear and beat both Ex Primals.

My conclusion is that I'm almost sure I'm jumping ship over to SAM.

As many people have said, Eye stacks are a horrible mechanic. DRG not only is bottom of the barrel in terms of melee DPS, but also requires MUCH more effort to play due to the extreme clunkiness of LOTD. LOTD is absurdly weak for the effort and time it takes to activate, essentially 1:20s to only get a 960 potency within a 20+s window IF you get the 3 Nastronds off.

Mechanics may demand you delay things here and there, effectively gimping you even further. The fact the Eye gauge only goes back to 4 make it so you can't use Jump or SD when you already have 4 eyes and GK is on 15+s cooldown due to the fact you'll waste Mirage Dive. Don't even get me started on dying. Back in 3.X the only thing you lost was potentially a Geirskogul. Here? Enjoy losing 3 eye stacks and building them all over again from the start. Another 1m+ to get to your "burst" phase. You can say "just git gud and not die then", but that's not how things work when you're progressing an encounter. It just feels bad and makes you cringe at building all those eyes up all over again, seeing as DRG has no way of fast tracking Eye gain.

Another issue: phase changes. Oh my god phase changes. On fights like Susanoo it's barely possible to keep BOTD by using the cooldown right when it's about to fall off because the animations are short, but on Lakshimi (whose animation's lenght is more in line with how boss's ultimates are), it's impossible no matter what you do. You are there lamenting losing the Eye stacks you worked so hard to gain, and on the other side you have Monks building Chakras and Samurais using Meditation to get loads of Kenki, essentially getting rewarded for downtime. It's just flawed design.

So yeah. DRG was very punishing in the 3.X series, but it was something you could easily work around by analyzing the encounter and your Geirskogul usage. Now BOTD is essentially free, but your actual damage is gated behind a system that is even worse and doesn't feel good in practice.

LoTD should always start with 30 seco ds. I HATE when I have 4 eyes and Geirskogul is ready but I have 17 seconds on BoTD and I have to delay activation by a full rotation in order to get the full ~25seconds necessary for 3 Nastronds.

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The fact the Eye gauge only goes back to 4 make it so you can't use Jump or SD when you already have 4 eyes and GK is on 15+s cooldown due to the fact you'll waste Mirage Dive. Don't even get me started on dying. Back in 3.X the only thing you lost was potentially a Geirskogul. Here? Enjoy losing 3 eye stacks and building them all over again from the start. Another 1m+ to get to your "burst" phase. You can say "just git gud and not die then", but that's not how things work when you're progressing an encounter. It just feels bad and makes you cringe at building all those eyes up all over again, seeing as DRG has no way of fast tracking Eye gain.

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Additionally this encourages me to play more aggressively, especially in dungeons. I'm sprinting ahead of the tank and pulling just so I don't lose my eyes, or to get off my last Nastrond (I play in a static so the tank is frustrated by understands and simply flashes off of me--but still). Losing eyes/LoTD timer feels bad man.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

LoTD should always start with 30 seco ds.

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Your BotD should be always on 30s, a nifty trick is if you are under 12 seconds before your refresh hit is to use BotD and it will push you right to 15 and then to 25. Allowing you to Geirskogul to Nastrond. That said, your Geirskogul should be lined up with your LotD activation.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

Another issue: phase changes. Oh my god phase changes. On fights like Susanoo it's barely possible to keep BOTD by using the cooldown right when it's about to fall off because the animations are short, but on Lakshimi (whose animation's lenght is more in line with how boss's ultimates are), it's impossible no matter what you do. You are there lamenting losing the Eye stacks you worked so hard to gain, and on the other side you have Monks building Chakras and Samurais using Meditation to get loads of Kenki, essentially getting rewarded for downtime. It's just flawed design.

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For Lakshmi phase change you should be able to use 1 Nastrond before she leaves the battlefield for the adds phase, and then 5 Nastronds in the add phase with a slow group. With a fast group you are looking at 2 or 3 Nastronds in add phase. And you should come out without any eye stacks.
For Susano you can choose to either, hold your second Geirskogul and use 2 Nastronds under BfB on susano or not delay your geirskogul and get that Geirskogul on susano, waste some eyes and use 2 Nastronds on the sword phase. You will build up 3-4 eye stacks in the sword phase so you can use a full 30 seconds Nastrond opener.

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Originally Posted by Schan

I'm just going to add that there are fat robots in a certain dungeon... i think it's the level 67 one where if i use Dragon Sight on the tank I literally can't dps the back of this robot because it is THAT fat and the tether range is that short, which means I am forced to chose to keep Dragon Sight buff or get punished for missing positionals. SE is literally forcing us into a lose-lose situation. Lose personal dps or lose utility.
Also I keep being paired with ranged DPS in dungeons. Not only they are always at the far back of the field (clearly the Vault has not taught them anything) but the few times they get close, they seem to freak out with the tether and just keep running way. (I may have stopped DPSing to chase a Bard one time while Dragon Sight was up. It was too funny. I'm sorry Bard.)

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Make a macro to use after you say hello in dungeons if you have a ranged codps. "<4(default number for dps)> mind getting close in aoe's and bosses? I need it for a buff to both of us. It will tether you in a red scaley chain, so don't worry, just keep in mind that it's really short."
If they come up with a snarky remark about "Chill out mister elitist, this is not savage lul", just be snarky right back with "I hope you like 30 minutes long dungeons".
Easy solutions for everyday problems. Remember to add a "please" somewhere there.

As a relatively new player, this is quite disheartening. What are SE like in terms of balance passes?

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Originally Posted by Erys

For Lakshmi...
For Susano ...

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That's what I do on Susanoo. He phases right when I'm about to enter the first LOTD, so I just get 2 Nastronds on the sword and build eyes there, using BOTD to refresh to 15 when it hits 1s as he comes back. That said it doesn't feel rewarding due to how low the sword DPS check is.

I only did Lakshimi with my static, so getting Nastronds there was a pain and again unrewarding due to how fast those adds were dying.

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Originally Posted by Erys

For Lakshmi phase change you should be able to use 1 Nastrond before she leaves the battlefield for the adds phase, and then 5 Nastronds in the add phase with a slow group. With a fast group you are looking at 2 or 3 Nastronds in add phase. And you should come out without any eye stacks.
For Susano you can choose to either, hold your second Geirskogul and use 2 Nastronds under BfB on susano or not delay your geirskogul and get that Geirskogul on susano, waste some eyes and use 2 Nastronds on the sword phase. You will build up 3-4 eye stacks in the sword phase so you can use a full 30 seconds Nastrond opener.

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That doesn't sound optimal to me. I get 6 nastronds pre adds phase (2 full LotD) and I get a LotD activation during adds phase by holding GSK (1-3 nastronds group depending)

With your tactic you will most certainly lose dps due to not being able to nastrond a target with consistent piercing debuff or you lose a lot of nastronds trying to get 5 in the adds phase since this is the part where dps can change the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

Snip

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Then you did all you could do and pulled your weight accordingly. Just ask for the sensible thing, higher potencies and extra jump buffs under LotD xP
And yeah when you get a fast group in lakshmi the adds are moot. I had one and could only get away with 3 nastronds in add phase. 2 from the previous LotD and 1 from the LotD I activated in there.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

That doesn't sound optimal to me. I get 6 nastronds pre adds phase (2 full LotD) and I get a LotD activation during adds phase by holding GSK (1-3 nastronds group depending)

With your tactic you will most certainly lose dps due to not being able to nastrond a target with consistent piercing debuff or you lose a lot of nastronds trying to get 5 in the adds phase since this is the part where dps can change the outcome.

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You probably are right I just have really bad memory. I just know that I come in add phase after using a Nastrond and 2 nastronds from that same LotD in said add phase.
How many geirskoguls are you holding to pull the 6 nastronds in p1?

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

That's what I do on Susanoo. He phases right when I'm about to enter the first LOTD, so I just get 2 Nastronds on the sword and build eyes there, using BOTD to refresh to 15 when it hits 1s as he comes back. That said it doesn't feel rewarding due to how low the sword DPS check is.

I only did Lakshimi with my static, so getting Nastronds there was a pain and again unrewarding due to how fast those adds were dying.

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For susano, that all depends on how early your first GSK is. Since he always transitions at 1:32 you can get 2 nastronds before he jumps, the 2nd one being just before he goes invulnerable.