Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

blah blah blah

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I've never asked for a stronger physick or a semi healer.
I said they took off sustain because they thought it was useless which is obviously not.
Please go level your summoner and come to this post after you learn it. And also; stop being toxic.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

I've never asked for a stronger physick or a semi healer.

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But airomi did and many people liked the idea by improving the physick spell. And yes im getting toxic if people are unable to understand or to read carefully.

Because my opinion was "get back sustain or a proper pet heal" instead of improving physick to become a semi healer like RDM. RDM draws its uniqueness in its hybrid job class idea, he is not a burst damage dealer like BLM nor a healer like a White mage. Now if more dd classes come up with the idea (give me a support heal) it would remove the uniqueness from RDM.

Nor does it solve the problem of SMN's lack of damage.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I am fairly certain no one has said that having sustain back would not be helpful. .

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I talked with ariomi about 3 pages here in this thread by saying "get back sustain (or even a proper pet heal) back and remove the useless physick spell instead" which firstly would straighten up the role of the SMN even more up. And get rid of the relics of the old base class system.

My goodness. Bit of a long post incoming, but eh, servers are down and I'm not in bed yet so I'm bored.

Texa was right about one thing for sure (well, more than one thing, but this one thing stuck out to me):

Tonkra, a lot of your posts come of as EXTREMELY condescending and arrogant. "GOD! Why can't these plebs possess the deep understanding of How Final Fantasy Works, that only True Fans can understand?!!?"

That is how you come across. At least to me.

Also, you might be interested to know, O Lord and Keeper of True Final Fantasy system knowledge, that you're flat wrong about FFIX. You've mentioned it SEVERAL times now, lumping it in (as "FFVII - FFX") with the "there are no jobs because everyone can learn everything!" type games. Stiener cannot learn Fire or Thunder, because he is a Knight. Vivi cannot learn Steal, because he is a Black Mage. Nobody but Freya can Jump, because she is the Dragoon. Etc.

So how do you square your assertions that This Job Must Work This Way with the fact that FFIX was WAY more committed to each character having a job than any game in the main (e.g. FF Tactics doesn't count) series since V? And yet, Garnet and Eiko were both summoner-healers. Sure you couldn't shuffle the jobs around like in V, but each character had their job, which boxed them in heavily to certain types of abilities. VI, VII, and VIII all worked in the opposite manner (with VI, in particular, being sort of a hybrid since everyone could learn any magic spell with no restriction whatsoever aside from Umaro, yet each character also had unique skills beyond just Limit Breaks).

For that matter, what ABOUT VI, VII, and VIII? That's three games, including two of the most beloved and influential in the entire franchise, that all eschewed the concept of "summoner" entirely. ANYONE could summon whatever they wanted if they had the right item equipped. You can't just discount those because they don't suit your bizarrely obsessive class-box argument.

If you're going to talk down to people, at least know your shit.

A couple other things:

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If you grant SMN a proper heal we could grant every dd a heal.. because "we want it".

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Why? It's TWO DPS classes, both casters, that wold have a decent heal. No one is asking for a strong cure spell on DRGs, nor will anyone go "SMN can heal well?? Why can't I heal on DRG then??" Also note, decent - an RDM is no substitute for a full healer in situations where serious damage is coming out. It's e backup/support/emergency tool, and of course is useful for solo'ing and in PotD, but that's all. Also SMN is already not pure-DPS all day, every day... Raise!! It's the only DPS class that can raise! (well, or was, before RDM). So how does that square with your paradigm?

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this is the only "unique selling point" of rdm atm

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Pfft, hardly. You could just straight-up rip Vercure out of the skillset, just un-exist the entire spell from the game, and I'd still play RDM. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm happier having it, but your comment here is at best a huge stretch.

And in reference to the fact that XIV DRK is a tank:

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Thats one thing that Yoshida "fucked up" at this point.

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lol

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Thats what i was asking in an other thread here

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That is awesome! Yes please!

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

And you cant even argument why a pet heal wouldnt be enough for a Summoner.

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I've already answered this question for you several times.

Asking for Sustain back is the equivalent to asking for Perfect Dodge back. Do you remember that Ability? There's no reason to believe that anything removed from the game is coming back ever.

Before heavensward, Blm's had things like triple flare, and as badly as Blm want those back, I don't think it's happening. Just like how I don't think Whm will get stoneskin back, Dragoons will get Ring of thorns back, or any other skill that vanished into the void.

This in no means fixes Summoner's lack luster damage. It gives them the basic functionality that they lack after their dedicated pet heal was removed.
Difference between Scholar's and Summoners? Scholars can atleast heal their pet. This fixes Summoner's pet dying which is no less than 25% of their dps.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

There's no reason to believe that anything removed from the game is coming back ever.

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And thats a complete non-argument.

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Originally Posted by Saito_S

Why? It's TWO DPS classes, both casters, that wold have a decent heal.

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How would that solve the lack of damage for summoners in any way now?

On the contrary a summoner with "sustain" (pet heal over time) would grant you more dps, because with a better physick spell you would spend more time healing instead of doing damage. A heal over time heals automatically over time while you could perform damage spells.

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If you're going to talk down to people, at least know your shit.

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Yes and i know that FFXI and FFXIV rely on the traditional job class system (with the typical artifact armors) roles and whatever comes next to it. And it is not reyling on FFVII, FFIX or anything which have none of the traditional job class system. Which doesnt mean that these are influenced by them or come close to them.
FF tactics makes use of the job system which strictly seperates the jobs from each other. How they do with FFXI and FFXIV (SMN/SCH are here the exception because they are the only jobs that share the base class)

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No one is asking for a strong cure spell on DRGs

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Well in the past i could have asked for my BLM to improve the healing effect of "Physick" while it was equipped as well..
Why didnt i do it? Because i dont expect a damage dealer with huge burst damage like BLM to heal.

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an RDM is no substitute for a full healer in situations where serious damage is coming out. It's e backup/support/emergency tool, and of course is useful for solo'ing and in PotD, but that's all. Also SMN is already not pure-DPS all day, every day... Raise!! It's the only DPS class that can raise! (well, or was, before RDM). So how does that square with your paradigm?

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Thats because of the base class system which Yoshida wants to get rid actually. SMN has heal and raise just because they share the base class.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Yes and i know that FFXI and FFXIV rely on the traditional job class system (with the typical artifact armors) roles and whatever comes next to it. And it is not reyling on FFVII, FFIX or anything which have none of the traditional job class system. Which doesnt mean that these are influenced by them or come close to them.

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Legitimate question. You have played FFIX, right? Zidane, Steiner, Vivi, Kuja, all them? Because the more you mention that it didn't have traditional jobs, the more I wonder...

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Legitimate question. You have played FFIX, right? Zidane, Steiner, Vivi, Kuja, all them? Because the more you mention that it didn't have traditional jobs, the more I wonder...

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Why do you come along with FFIX when its clear that FFXI and FFXIV jobs arent clearly based on these titles? You wont find a samurai or any other jobs like that in these titles..,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...3_FF3_Jobs.jpg


additionally it makes me wonder how we came from "my pet dies very fast, they dropped of sustain, SMN's damage is too low" to a "i want to heal my party members". Then please give my BLM heal too, because it gives me a disadvantage not to heal and raise, while RDM and SMN are able to semi-heal

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Thats because of the base class system which Yoshida wants to get rid actually. SMN has heal and raise just because they share the base class.

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Yet.. Summoner used to be unique as the only dps class to rez. You are strangely hypocritical when it suits you.
Red Mage now has Rez and Summoner is no longer unique.
And Yoshi P has had plenty of time to get rid of the class system. Storm blood was a perfect opportunity to do so. Yet he didn't. Your arguments are flawed and your too toxic to offer any sort of constructive feedback.

If you want to talk about old final fantasy games, Give Summoner knights of the round and let me solo most content. Or I'll happily pay Yojimbo to kill my enemies for me

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

useless as aleays.

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Ok, let me ask you something.
You are a BLM what are you even doing on this thread?
Spreading toxicity for no reason?

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Why do you come along with FFIX when its clear that FFXI and FFXIV jobs arent clearly based on these titles? You wont find a samurai or any other jobs like that in these titles..,

additionally it makes me wonder how we came from "my pet dies very fast, they dropped of sustain, SMN's damage is too low" to a "i want to heal my party members". Then please give my BLM heal too, because it gives me a disadvantage not to heal, while RDM and SMN are able to semi-heal

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I mentioned them because you said summoners didn't have the ability to heal outside of summons. I just gave you times when they did. Then you started saying some didn't follow the job system...Which again, I gave you the ones that did. You seem to be moving the goalposts on that, but either way, I would like to point out that comparing FFXI jobs to FFXIV jobs isn't even something you should be doing. They aren't the same.

Point said, I've never specifically said SMN should have a strong heal. Most of my comments on the healing were traits that would keep the strength of physick currently the same, since we can assume it is not going anywhere, but give it an additional effect to heal the pets better (Either as a regen or just a stronger heal).

Why did you list FFIII jobs there?

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

How would that solve the lack of damage for summoners in any way now?

On the contrary a summoner with "sustain" (pet heal over time) would grant you more dps, because with a better physick spell you would spend more time healing instead of doing damage. A heal over time heals automatically over time while you could perform damage spells.

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Uh-uh. No you don't. Not letting you get away with this nonsense.

Answer my question in the context that I asked it or don't bother replying. I was not addressing SMN DPS or SMN balance issues AT ALL when I said this. I was responding to YOUR assertion that giving SMN a decently strong heal (i.e. as strong as RDM's Vercure) would be bad because then we'd have "too many DPS classes with heals", or because SMN "isn't a healer", or etc. What I was saying is: why is that bad? It would be TWO DPS classes with decent heals. TWO. I don't think any career healers wold be shaking in their thighboots over that.

Address this, or nothing at all, because taking my reply and making it about SMN DPS, or how it wouldn't "solve the lack of damage" is disingenuous at best.

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Yes and i know that FFXI and FFXIV rely on the traditional job class system (with the typical artifact armors) roles and whatever comes next to it. And it is not reyling on FFVII, FFIX or anything which have none of the traditional job class system. Which doesnt mean that these are influenced by them or come close to them.

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??? What does this word salad even mean? I said nothing whatsoever about FFXI. Why are you quoting me here? There's no connection to what I said. And this certainly doesn't address the fact that if you are going to talk down to people, you should at least be right about what you're stating. You borked that part by insisting that FFIX (NINE, not ELEVEN) had "no jobs" and that everyone could just learn everything.

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Well in the past i could have asked for my BLM to improve the healing effect of "Physick" while it was equipped as well..
Why didnt i do it? Because i dont expect a damage dealer with huge burst damage like BLM to heal.

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Well, by your own logic, Black Mage has rarely if ever had much emphasis at all on healing. Whereas FFIX had two summoners who were also powerful healers, and in FFIV Rydia started off as a WHM/BLM/SMN hybrid, so...

But my point, which you again missed, was that granting a decent cure spell to SMN, meaning that now both SMN and RDM have one, isn't going to make every OTHER DPS (especially non-caster DPS like DRG) suddenly go WELL WHERE IS MY HEAL SPELL?? Having exactly two damage dealers with decent heal spells isn't going to break anything, and the slippery slope argument is nonsense.

And on that note, it is time for sleep. We'll see if this thread explodes even more overnight!

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Physick, return of sustain...

Summoners need a way to keep their pets alive, even in solo content.
Otherwise, there's no use for a tank pet.

I haven't done any healing since Stormblood launched...

But, back in heavensward it was really difficult to keep track of other player's pets.
They don't show up on the party list.

And, on controller especially, it is difficult to target them.
You're required to adjust your targeting filters constantly to change targets around between the pets and enemies.

If the design is to have the healers be responsible for pet health, then it needs to be much easier than it was in heavensward.

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That is very much true. I don't know what SE was thinking.

And @Tonkra, it is time you have excused yourself out of this thread. You are being a FF-nazi FOR NO REASON when people are trying to discuss how to fix the issue at hand. In an MMO. So please just stop because you have now spammed PAGES of absolutely irrelevant information. Read the original post, read the title, contribute to that, or GTFO. Same with you people who are arguing with him, take it in private if you are so damn stubborn. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Yet.. Summoner used to be unique as the only dps class to rez. You are strangely hypocritical when it suits you.
Red Mage now has Rez and Summoner is no longer unique.

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Im hypocritical when it doesnt suit SMN and on the other hand doesnt solve the problem that you are talking about (dmg lack, pet dies often).

A party member heal isnt there to solve these problems. if the problem would be "i cant heal my party members" that would be the strict solution for that, right. I would support your suggestion if in my opinion (and sorry that i am not your opinion) if it would straighten up the summoner what he is supposed to be (that is: doing damage and his pets). Which goes along with being able to keeping his pets alive or increasing the damage of the SMN itself or the pets.

and this doesnt need a stronger party member healing skill. As i said im not against you, the summoner should be able to keep his pet alive. But i think increasing physick healing abillity is a squishy solution. Get rid of that useless spell and give him a proper pet heal.

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Storm blood was a perfect opportunity to do so. Yet he didn't. Your arguments are flawed and your too toxic to offer any sort of constructive feedback.

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I already gave constructive feedback here and that is: pet heal.

Also in this thread here.. since the SMN has many other problems, and that is not "lacking in healing my party members" (having only garuda egi out for 80% of the time in groups).

etc pp:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...on-Bahamut-now..

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Ok, let me ask you something.
You are a BLM what are you even doing on this thread?
Spreading toxicity for no reason?

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Tonkra is toxic as he recently submitted a complete Summoner rework with new summons despite the fact that the summoner quests in ffxiv explain why you can't summon ramuh or other's like him. Ironically, he says in that post that he wants to make Summoners more useful in groups. It's really funny actually

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with new summons despite the fact that the summoner quests in ffxiv explain why you can't summon ramuh or other's like him.

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Right, thats why you can summon demi-bahamut - its against the lore.. (which isnt the real bahamut it is a ghostly avatar). Last time: to heal party members doesnt solve any of your problems (lack of dps, unable to keep pets alive).

Summoner needs a proper pet heal, better dps/pets and not a party member heal.

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Ironically, he says in that post that he wants to make Summoners more useful in groups. It's really funny actually

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yes because only one pet is useful in group there should be ways to make the other pets more usefull as well.


End of story.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I(dmg lack, pet dies often).

A party member heal isnt there to solve these problems.
I already gave constructive feedback here and that is: pet heal.

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Summoner's lost their pet heal, It's not something that is likely to come back, just like 1.0 just like perfect dodge. Summoner's need a heal to use on their pet, is does nothing but help the group more if they have the option to make it heal party members. You haven't said a single constructive thing.

Read through your suggestion page, Do you even know why old summoner's used Garuda 80% of the time? Your ideas sound like you don't even have a clue.

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Originally Posted by Saito_S

Texa was right about one thing for sure (well, more than one thing, but this one thing stuck out to me):

Tonkra, a lot of your posts come of as EXTREMELY condescending and arrogant.

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I think they're choosing to take any argument on this issue personally because of the extremely long summoner rework post they did that SE would never actually implement. Anything that goes against that is seen as a affront to all the work they did when the large majority of us haven't even read it and aren't going to because tl;dr flights of fancy that has nothing to actually do to with what people who actively play SMN want.

But off that subject, has SE ever ADDED a new action for a job after the expansion already came out? Like I know they buff, nerf, and tweak traits but have they ever added a whole different action to the expansion toolset after the expansion has released?

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Originally Posted by Texa

But off that subject, has SE ever ADDED a new action for a job after the expansion already came out? Like I know they buff, nerf, and tweak traits but have they ever added a whole different action to the expansion toolset after the expansion has released?

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Stoneskin II is the only thing i can think of. Though they've never removed so many things that previously existed either, so it's not like they have to create whole new animations or anything, just reactivate and tweak if they want to.

SMN's problem now is a lot bigger than Sustain (even though that is definitely an issue).

it's also really boring. you can't Bane/Fester inside Dreadwyrm so the only thing you can do is Ruin III.

The meta is already out...sch is dead last for healing potency. The redmage bests us now.

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Originally Posted by Merryl

The meta is already out...sch is dead last for healing potency. The redmage bests us now.

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so PLD PLD AST AST?

I'm not going to get into mythological purity as to whether a Summoner should have general healing abilities or not. The fact is Physick is a useless action for the job. On the other hand Sustain was very useful, I'd say mandatory, and fits with Summoner being a pet class. It is obvious SE didn't really look at how Summoner works when they started making changes. If they had they would have removed Physick and kept Sustain. Add in the other changes, many of which do not flow well, and I my plan once I've completed the MSQ is to reluctantly drop the only class I've really played since starting the game.

At HW: Smn classes got heavily boostet -> balanced

Now at Stormblood: Smn AND Sch got actually destroyed, As if a random trainee had some drunk ideas and the devs didnt looked into this mess before... >.>
I dont like that class anymore.... was on my Top 3 Favourites!! Now its last place like Mch(HW) is =_= (for me)

Also: Scholars CANT use Arcanist books for glamours anymore, -___- because of the weapon split Arc/Smn and Sch only...
I can equip Arc/Smn/Sch book as Sch, BUT I cant use it for glamour, fix at least this!

I got pretty upset! I have a Char with Blue themed weapons/Outfit!
Cant use that perfect (lv15) Blue book(the ONLY blue looking like one) for sch-glamour anymore ;(

You know what, if any of you out there can get a party going there is a way to check if summoner was weakened too much. Go to A11S and A12S and see if the DPS is acceptable. Don't forget to go synched and at a little less than ilvl270. I have a feeling that it's either going to be BARELY enough to cover its per DPS job required damage or it might simply not be enough at all.

If there are no troubles with those 2 fight in terms of the summoner she DPS then go to synched, base item level Final Coil, the last 2 fights.
I have an incling suspicion that SMN is gonna be incapable of bringing its needed damage to at least one of those.

I can agree with soloing things without sustain is difficult. I can't even buff titan any more. Which sucks in fates or any open world when he dies and all the monsters turn on you... I really didn't see the point in SE removing that and spur. I also am not seeing the enkindle timer reduction proc often. I assumed it's timer would go down and I would be making up for lost potencies with more enkindle damage, but I am not seeing it come back much faster..

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so PLD PLD AST AST?

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^^what even is that? Lol
Yah i guess. ..

Everyone knows pld top tank ast top healer.

This is basically their passive agressive way to get us to stop playing smn/sch

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Originally Posted by LordPhantomhive

I can agree with soloing things without sustain is difficult. I can't even buff titan any more. Which sucks in fates or any open world when he dies and all the monsters turn on you... I really didn't see the point in SE removing that and spur. I also am not seeing the enkindle timer reduction proc often. I assumed it's timer would go down and I would be making up for lost potencies with more enkindle damage, but I am not seeing it come back much faster..

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I find I need it for dungeons a well as many healers don't heal pets.

http://i.imgur.com/A0TuC2y.jpg

Summoner seems just fine.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

http://i.imgur.com/A0TuC2y.jpg

Summoner seems just fine.

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Can i ask what encounter this is? Dummy? And how long parse is this?

They killed the summoner job, and everybody like you got bahamut, no level 70 summer's have bahamut I have a pos. I've been summoner main since the beginning but I'm actually thinking about changing classes. And for the most part I can't even heal my pet he died like 6 times on a fate like really!!! I guess their trying to kill off summoner for SC favorite job black mage. I just might join everybody else and quit a realm reborn because they just being stupid now, like who want to spam high level dungeons spending 30 to 40 minutes in there each time, I mean they want you to grind and that's what we were doing but they had a great idea to nerf aoe's to stop big pulls. Thanks for nothing SC. ( not everyone are game freaks and want to spend thousands of hours a week playing a game)

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Originally Posted by Furrythefireman

( not everyone are game freaks and want to spend thousands of hours a week playing a game)

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There are 168 hours in a week.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Can i ask what encounter this is? Dummy? And how long parse is this?

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SSS, divided completion time by mob HP. Obviously these numbers are off a bit since they don't include raid DPS gains but they're a decent eyeball until we have better tools.

They killed the summoner job. Like really we can't heal our pets really SC REALLY!! what does that solve? And what's with making aoe's weak to make high level dungeons longer? We speed run because y'all want us to grind grind grind and even grind some more, but now you want it to take longer???? (SN not everyone are game freaks and want to spend thousands of hours a week on a game.) We all know your favorite job class is black mage but why nerf summoner mains in the back. I'm actually thinking about changing classes because the job is so weak now. THANKS SC FOR KILLING A ONCE MIGHTY JOB BUT NOW EXTINCT.

Wow. Someone needs to switch to decaf.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

SSS, divided completion time by mob HP. Obviously these numbers are off a bit since they don't include raid DPS gains but they're a decent eyeball until we have better tools.

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The timer is really important because the way how aetherflow works. Most summoners damage is tied aetherflow. You can use two aetherflows first minute and only one remaining minutes. You can easily keep 4k + dps first 3min, but after you do like 5-10min parses dps will stay around 3700-3800 in my experience and I have ilvl 314 myself as well.

after I level my smn/sch to 70 to unlock flying, going to play a dps class that just feels much better...RDM

Sustain was a killer for me...who removes that on a pet class...

The removal of Sustain is just baffling.

they need to fire the team who is in charge of "balancing" the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Medicine

Are you sure? Because WHM and AST have like 3 or 4 different mana regen/reduction abilities, also they nerfed Aetherflow.

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Where are you getting 3-4 skills? Aetherflow regens 10% MP, the same as Asize

AST has Ewer and Lucid Dreaming for MP regen. Lightspeed which reduces MP cost
WHM has Asize and Lucid Dreaming for MP regen. They have a trait for no MP cure and Thin Air.

SCH has Aetherflow, Energy Drain, and Lucid Dreaming

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Originally Posted by curather

they need to fire the team who is in charge of "balancing" the jobs.

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Agree completely

Basically what I got from this expansion is SE has no idea what they are doing with the jobs and the job identities (short of a couple jobs). Maybe a little over exaggerated but its how I feel now and hopefully they correct some of this garbage but if not I can always take my sub to another game that uses their brain for development.