About Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches change

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Actually AST didn't have access to Virus/Eye for an Eye at all before. CNJ/THM was it so pretty much, CS/Prot/Swift/Stoneskin then Surecast or Blizzard 2 on opinion/level... Eithervway you took it to have 5/5 not cause you needed either.

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AST had Disable, which was just their variation on Virus. Don't forget about it! ...Well, ok, it's gone in SB, so I guess we can forget about it. >_>;

Also that party-wide Esuna that was mentioned is on a 60 seconds cooldown. You cannot rely on it to always be available when needed, especially if you prefer to have Selene on Sic for Fey Wind spamming.

On another note, I just noticed that in Stormblood the White Mage spells Cure and Cure II are getting their potencies buffed, Cure will now have a 450 Cure Potency (Up from 400) and Cure II will now have a 700 Cure Potency (Up from 650) while Astrologian Benefic is remaining at 400 Cure Potency and Benefic II is remaining at 650 Cure Potency.....umm.....HAHAHA what? I hope the 15% healing buff from Diurnal and Nocturnal will raise that up to be on par with Cure and Cure II otherwise that is just uncool, White Mages already had ridiculously good healing to begin with and if what Ive seen in the released videos is any indication White Mages will have far better damage output (Yes I know, Healers are not DPSers by nature but still).

I mean, I main as a White Mage and an Astrologian, love both classes pretty much equally, but this buff to Cure and Cure II is admittedly unwanted unless Astrologian is getting Benefic and Benefic II potency buffs as well.

Addendum: I certainly hope that everything we've seen in the vids released thus far, is not how it will be.

Anything that's currently esunable is also avoidable, and barring that there are many, many ways to cleanse debuffs, even some available regardless of class/job. I still haven't sweated it because frankly, Esuna was always one of the more useless skills in my eyes. Ironically, I actually forgot that was a skill I had by default on my healers, just due to how little it actually matters.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Anything that's currently esunable is also avoidable, and barring that there are many, many ways to cleanse debuffs, even some available regardless of class/job. I still haven't sweated it because frankly, Esuna was always one of the more useless skills in my eyes. Ironically, I actually forgot that was a skill I had by default on my healers, just due to how little it actually matters.

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Lots of bosses put removable debuffs on random people. Two in particular that come to mind are the last boss of Fractal Continuum and the first boss of Dun Scaith. The first can knock the party off the platform if not cleansed, the second is a doom effect.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Anything that's currently esunable is also avoidable.

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Uh. No. I can think of a few bosses that cast devices that are either required to remove or removing them makes the fight easier. Sastasha Hard, Hullbreaker Isle Hard, Wander's Palace Hard, and Fractal Continuum are some examples of places that have at least one boss that esuna is useful or required.

There are other ways to have conditions removed than esuna.

Who won't take swiftcast? Protect? E4E? CS? Largesse? CS? Lucid Dreaming? They could just as easily build that into each class, rename it, etc.

Oh no! It looks like I can't take all those skills at the time. Guess I've got a.choice to make depending on the encounter. Let's be honest, this is a huge step up from the cross class system. Role skill choice actually mean something. If you personally feel like you must have esuna all the time, by all means take it.

Every class already had Esuna analogues. WHM and AST already had their Lucid Dreaming analogues (and SCH has, and retains, MP regain on Aetherflow & Energy Drain). Protect is so critical it might as well be baked into every healer's kit anyway.

Cross role actions should be stuff that expands your options, but won't break your run if you don't have them like not having those skills will if you go in blind. Things like Rescue, Surecast, and new Cleric Stance are all perfect examples.

Removing critical skills like Esuna to cross role adds pointless burden of knowledge (on top of the burden of knowledge for which debuffs in particular are cleansable).

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

(on top of the burden of knowledge for which debuffs in particular are cleansable).

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Well that at least has been fixed, removable debuffs will now be marked.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Oh no! It looks like I can't take all those skills at the time. Guess I've got a.choice to make depending on the encounter. Let's be honest, this is a huge step up from the cross class system. Role skill choice actually mean something. If you personally feel like you must have esuna all the time, by all means take it.

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It's a huge step down. I would rather have my choice be what abilities to use in a fight, not what I bring to the fight. Planning for a duty isn't fun, and there aren't really options, you'll have your priority list of the 7 or 8 useful skills so you know exactly what you're going to take every time you don't need esuna and the other healer takes protect.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

AST had Disable, which was just their variation on Virus. Don't forget about it! ...Well, ok, it's gone in SB, so I guess we can forget about it. >_>;

Also that party-wide Esuna that was mentioned is on a 60 seconds cooldown. You cannot rely on it to always be available when needed, especially if you prefer to have Selene on Sic for Fey Wind spamming.

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Party wide Esuna is on Selene, shares CD with Eos + Healing recieved buff. Always forget about disable... Pretty much only use it for tank busters and raid wide AoE, i think it was given to tanks, which is a better spot for it.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Every class already had Esuna analogues. WHM and AST already had their Lucid Dreaming analogues (and SCH has, and retains, MP regain on Aetherflow & Energy Drain). Protect is so critical it might as well be baked into every healer's kit anyway.

Cross role actions should be stuff that expands your options, but won't break your run if you don't have them like not having those skills will if you go in blind. Things like Rescue, Surecast, and new Cleric Stance are all perfect examples.

Removing critical skills like Esuna to cross role adds pointless burden of knowledge (on top of the burden of knowledge for which debuffs in particular are cleansable).

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Keep in mind Aetherflows MP recovery was cut in half last time we saw it. I also get a nudging suspicion that they are working towards elimination of classes in general. And there is a precendent for similar things having been done before. EQ2 did it at one point to knock out the first 3 stages of character identity pretty far unto its life cycle, wanna say 2 expansions in or so that hit. Also pretty sure there was some minor comment in one of Yoshi's recent interviews that mention "while still gaving classes" if anyone remembers seeing it, link if you would. Either way the going in blind/PUG setup for us is pretty simple. Protect/Esuna/Swiftcast/Eye for an Eye/Lucid Dreaming, after that its a matter of ditching what you dont need.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

You really do not understand my point..../

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Same could be said for you, when reading mine.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

White Mage already has Esuna built into the class, Astrologian has Exalted Detriment and Scholar has Leeches, all of these spells remove debuffs and are built into these three classes and they dont need to cross class them, WHY do these need to be ONE spell that is now going to be a Cross Role!?

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I've already said this, but you have shot it down, like many others. Skill bloat. Yes, esuna in the kit v. in role skills doesn't mean you lose a button, but when you have to replace that wether it be in your kit, or in the role skill pool, you still have 1 extra button.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

Same thing for how spells like Shroud of Saints for WHM and Luminiferous Aether are being replaced with the ability Lucid Dreaming which is oh hello another Cross Role skill when they already had MP regenerative abilities BUILT into their classes.

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Regardless of what you think, healers, ALL healers, even sch's, need ballad from time to time, and putting this into Role skills is a good idea. And to top it off, Shroud of Saints, and Luminiferous both do the same effect, but do different %'s of MP restored. Shroud only lasts 15 seconds while Luminiferous lasts 24 seconds, both on the same CD timer. So why not consolidate them, and make it across all healers.

On a side note to this skill, there are a few other moves in the game to give healers MP, and this may not even need to be something to have as a role skill, as Ranged DPS have Ballad, and Caster DPS also have a Mana Shift ability.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

SCH and Summoner I rarely see have MP problems since Aetherflow is so darn good with replenishing it, IF ANYTHING they should give a new core built spell to SCH and maybe SMN that refreshes MP over time, but again, Ive rarely seen them need it >:l.

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Why do that when you can just make it a role skill?! Hell, its actually happening!!

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

Why are you defending this? I dont know if it is your intention or not but you are coming off as someone who refuses to acknowledge when devs they are fans of make a mistake because you like them so much you think them incapable of making mistakes :/

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I'm defending this because its a good move on SE's part. If you can't see past your short sightedness, and look at the bigger picture, besides what you THINK will effect you in stormblood, I can't help you. You've already addmited you don't do/have any savage raid exp..

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

To Aramina: Yes, I havent done end game raids, admittingly the only raid I recall doing so far is Crystal Tower.

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With that said, I defend this for what it is, a good change. You disagree with me, and that is fine, but I suggest you try to look at what other people say.. you don't have to admit defeat, but you have to be open to suggestion, and look at things from a different angle...

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

(and it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says)

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-- From OP's original post.

Frankly I'm not happy with their method of mana regen balance as we've seen so far. Aetherize has been nerfed to 10% return, and Assize buffed to a 60 second cooldown, meaning both moves restore 10% mana on a 60 second cooldown. Further, both classes get Lucid Dreaming as a refresh mechanic, making WHM/SCH mana regen identical outside of Energy Drain despite SCH having higher equivalent mana costs for the majority of their spells across the board (example: 960 mana for broil III vs 720 mana for Stone IV and Malefic II). While AST has only Lucid Dreaming and their rogue Ewer, they have comparatively lower mana costs to compensate, but the normalization of classes is still boring. Hopefully this is one of the issues they address between the April build showcased and release.

An additional joke with Lucid Dreaming is that they had to cross-role it to caster DPS as well, mainly to help SMN who also lost 10% mana regen on their Aetherize, but this means it's also available to BLMs which is pretty silly.

The esuna issue is frankly a poor design choice. It feels like they did it only because they needed 10 skills and all healers had the skill originally, and likely cross-rolling Cure I would have been too asinine. The fact is that often esuna is a required spell, especially when Doom and throttle effects are involved since the new DPS cleans likely do not handle its debuff type, and constantly swapping abilities per encounter is unintuitive and annoying, especially with no ability to save multiple "specs" to switch between. More than likely everyone will take it regardless as a quality of life issue, unless somehow debuffs and monsters known for them (like Morbols) become far less apparent in the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by winsock

There are other ways to have conditions removed than esuna.

Who won't take swiftcast? Protect? E4E? CS? Largesse? CS? Lucid Dreaming? They could just as easily build that into each class, rename it, etc.

Oh no! It looks like I can't take all those skills at the time. Guess I've got a.choice to make depending on the encounter. Let's be honest, this is a huge step up from the cross class system. Role skill choice actually mean something. If you personally feel like you must have esuna all the time, by all means take it.

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1) "There are other ways to have conditions removed than Esuna" Ummm like what? Potions? Whose gonna waste money buying and using potions for that? Why should we need to? Esuna (White Mage), Exalted Detriment (Astrologian) and Leeches (Scholar) are a core part of these three healers, and not some needless Cross Role variation that they have to waste 1 of 5 slots to equip.....seriously, why are people not understanding that this is a blatantly stupid decision?


2) "Oh no! It looks like I can't take all those skills at the same time" Healers are most likely going to take Esuna, Protect, Largesse, Lucid Dreaming and Swiftcast, which means the other 5 Cross Role skills will rarely, if ever, see the light of day. The Spells Esuna, Exalted Detriment, and Leeches (which again all do the same thing) were built into the three healers as a part of their core kit, and thus SHOULDNT EVEN BE lopped into the Cross Role like they will be, that is stupid and nothing anyone says, does or thinks will change that. This is no step up, it is a step down, and taking away the MP Regeneration abilities that White Mage and Astrologian had (Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether respectively) and thrusting them into the Lucid Dreaming Cross Role ability is equally as stupid, and it is sad that you dont see that, why should you need to Cross Role abilities that were already BUILT INTO YOU before Stormblood?

I mean jeez, as a White Mage you inherently have Esuna, Protect, Shroud of Saints and Divine Seal, why should these be taken away from White Mages and turned into Cross Role skills?

As an Astrologian you inherently have Exalted Detriment (does the same thing as Esuna just different name and animation/visual), Luminiferous Aether (same thing as Shroud of Saints except does not reduce built up Enmity) and the Astrologian ability called Synastry had a built in 20% healing buff just like White Mage's Divine Seal.

Scholars have Leeches (same thing as Esuna and Exalted Detriment), they had an impressive MP regeneration skill called Aetherflow which I hear is getting slammed in how much MP it restores, they also have Dissipation which is their version of Divine Seal as it increases Healing by 20% as well

There are so many similar abilities that White Mage, Astrologian and Scholar all have built into them, that are now being taken away and shoved NEEDLESSLY into the Cross Role, if you and others truly think this is in any way smart, when it is such an obvious waste of Cross Role slots, then omg.....

Okay, Nyghtmarerubo, it is clear that we are not going to agree with each other, I'm done arguing in circles with you, if you don't agree with me, fine, but I know I am not wrong.

This change helps no one, the only thing it really does that is in any way beneficial, is that all healers will get Largesse at lvl 40, where as the soonest SCH could get their Dissipation (their version of Divine Seal) is lvl 60 and ASTs had to wait till lvl 50 to get Synastry.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

1) "There are other ways to have conditions removed than Esuna" Ummm like what? Potions? Whose gonna waste money buying and using potions for that? Why should we need to? Esuna (White Mage), Exalted Detriment (Astrologian) and Leeches (Scholar) are a core part of these three healers, and not some needless Cross Role variation that they have to waste 1 of 5 slots to equip.....seriously, why are people not understanding that this is a blatantly stupid decision?

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Classes other than healers can remove some conditions in SB as well. We dont know enough yet to know if it was a bad decision or not. Content will determine that.

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Healers are most likely going to take Esuna, Protect, Largesse, Lucid Dreaming and Swiftcast, which means the other 5 Cross Role skills will rarely, if ever, see the light of day. The Spells Esuna, Exalted Detriment, and Leeches (which again all do the same thing) were built into the three healers as a part of their core kit, and thus SHOULDNT EVEN BE lopped into the Cross Role like they will be, that is stupid and nothing anyone says, does or thinks will change that. This is no step up, it is a step down, and taking away the MP Regeneration abilities that White Mage and Astrologian had (Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether respectively) and thrusting them into the Lucid Dreaming Cross Role ability is equally as stupid, and it is sad that you dont see that, why should you need to Cross Role abilities that were already BUILT INTO YOU before Stormblood?

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You've already made up your mind before playing SB? Considering how low the HPS check is in some content (esp overgeared) why not experiment with dropping largesse or protect for something else? Personally, im looking forward to rescue and the final iteration of cleric stance.

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I mean jeez, as a White Mage you inherently have Esuna, Protect, Shroud of Saints and Divine Seal, why should these be taken away from White Mages and turned into Cross Role skills?

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Consider a larger picture. It's easy to view DS as a loss for WHM right? We lose a role slot for taking it. The 'bigger picture' part is that everyone losses a role slot for taking it, not just WHM. Thing is, WHM healing potencies may allow WHM to drop DS in favor of another skill. For example, if DS is a big boost to SCH during XYZ part of a fight, but WHM can make due with Cure III, WHM actually has an advantage by being able to take other roles skills. Also, inherent protect currently gives WHM little to no advantage.... unless you are an avid user of Blizzard II and Surecast.

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There are so many similar abilities that White Mage, Astrologian and Scholar all have built into them, that are now being taken away and shoved NEEDLESSLY into the Cross Role, if you and others truly think this is in any way smart, when it is such an obvious waste of Cross Role slots, then omg.....

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"then omg" is a way to avoid explaining yourself. It's a game. Technically, everything is "needless". Please explain why this change is so bad in a logical way. "omg" and "that is stupid" and "nothing anyone says, does or thinks will change that" and "it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says" is not a logical argument, that's angst.

Moving from inherent to role isnt inherently bad. If you were brand new to the game, and didnt know these skill where inherent originally, would you still have the same opinion? Why?

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Originally Posted by winsock

Classes other than healers can remove some conditions in SB as well. We dont know enough yet to know if it was a bad decision or not. Content will determine that.

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Before this sentiment gains any traction, melee DPS have a cross role that can remove a single bind or heavy, and caster DPS get one to remove a single Damage Over Time debuff. Both of these are on a 90 second cooldown. Their intention is to give DPS an emergency save to self-cover when healers are unable to reach them for one reason or another similar to the Second Wind self-heal, because it's frustrating to die because the heavy took too long to drop off. These aren't intended to replace esuna though, just to give DPS a possible self-rescue. However neither move effects non-damaging statuses like doom, throttle, confusion, mog charm, or vulnerability up.

Any fight where debuffs occur with regularity will want esuna unless you can either prevent their application with shields or heal through their damage with regens. Having to switch in between fights will not be fun, and you will want esuna regardless when doing half the duty roulettes anyway, so more than likely you'll take esuna unless attempting to use a specific loadout for serious raiding, or I guess if you want to troll with Rescue.

Esuna is a dead button 90% of the time.
All three healers have a skill that does exactly the same thing.

So, it's actually a prime contender to fit the cross-role skills.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

Okay, Nyghtmarerubo, it is clear that we are not going to agree with each other, I'm done arguing in circles with you, if you don't agree with me, fine, but I know I am not wrong.

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Thats too bad. but I'm glad you just shut off when you can't come up with a real rebuttle. You harp the same thing and yet, when people voice their opinion on how they feel about it, you just shut them down, and ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

and it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says!!

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Originally Posted by winsock

"then omg" is a way to avoid explaining yourself. It's a game. Technically, everything is "needless". Please explain why this change is so bad in a logical way. "omg" and "that is stupid" and "nothing anyone says, does or thinks will change that" and "it is a waste no matter what the Devs or anyone says" is not a logical argument, that's angst.

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Thank you winsock..

Agree with OP. It is a waste to have so many essential abilities stuffed into the role slots. I've mained a WHM for a long time and looking at that list? What are garbage fire for the sake of symmetry. Basically having to choose all five from essential need. Even if the new content does not require it, the old content does. Queuing up for multiple content selections is part of the game too. So realistically, I think most healers will consider Esuna to be a required ability and, unless constantly switching out abilities becomes a real thing, they will just leave it on their bar. Opinions and meta aside, vast majority of players will probably do this.

Also consider new content. You always have to have it on the bar because you don't know if it's needed or not.

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Originally Posted by CaptnYesterday

Basically having to choose all five from essential need.

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Whats so different about healers v. every other role in the game? Melee DPS HAVE to take Invigorate. Tanks HAVE to take provoke. These are essential skills!! I could list more and more, but really, this is what the role skills are for!! Its to put the less meaningful skills into, so that the more meaningful ones that are being added, can help define the job!!

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Whats so different about healers v. every other role in the game? Melee DPS HAVE to take Invigorate. Tanks HAVE to take provoke. These are essential skills!! I could list more and more, but really, this is what the role skills are for!! Its to put the less meaningful skills into, so that the more meaningful ones that are being added, can help define the job!!

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The system is bad for everyone, hooray!

You're in the healer section of the forums, btw.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

The system is bad for everyone, hooray!

You're in the healer section of the forums, btw.

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I was making a point. But thats cool, Thanks for not giving anything to the argument in that post.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

I was making a point. But thats cool, Thanks for not giving anything to the argument in that post.

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Ok. ;)

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Melee DPS HAVE to take Invigorate. Tanks HAVE to take provoke. These are essential skills!! I could list more and more, but really, this is what the role skills are for!! Its to put the less meaningful skills into, so that the more meaningful ones that are being added, can help define the job!!

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How exactly does putting essential skills in the role ability list along with the less meaningful ones help define the job? If the skills are essential then why make them optional? That's the opposite of defining a job.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

1) How about we move most if not all of your Enmity generators as a tank to Cross Role?

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Rampart
Convalescence
Provoke

All tanks lost defensive cooldowns and threat builders to the class role system. DRK lost Shadowskin, reprisal, and Low Blow(and procs), War lost Foresight, Brutal Swing(their stun) and lulflash, PLD lost Rampart, Convalescence, and Provoke.

The difference between? I can't name a single tank that's crying over the lost tools(Well... except DRK's Scourge), because not having them means we either adjust, or spend a slot to get them back, if we deem them necessary.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Sastasha Hard, Hullbreaker Isle Hard, Wander's Palace Hard, and Fractal Continuum

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SasH it was only mandatory for the goo scorpion at the beginning, Hullbreaker it really didn't have any effect at all at any point, Wanderers had nothing to esuna, and Fractal? Someone gets hit with bleed, Regen and get back to DPSing. Hell, barring any fight with Doom you can very safely remove Esuna from your hot bar because it only matters in less than 5% of the game's content. I would, and will, gladly trade it away in a heart beat. I have other more important things to get.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

These aren't intended to replace esuna though, just to give DPS a possible self-rescue

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This is ALSO incorrect. Neither of the dps role skills can be used on themselves, only other party members barring a change before release. I'm speaking of Crutch and Erase, respectively, of course. Then again, Bard's also have Keepers Paean(Warden's? I can never remember) which both cleanses all debuffs AND shields from another one. Fact check, please.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

How exactly does putting essential skills in the role ability list along with the less meaningful ones help define the job? If the skills are essential then why make them optional? That's the opposite of defining a job.

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By putting the essential skills there, they can focus on making skills specifically for the job. Dropping skills like, esuna, divine seal, eye for an eye, into a pool for all healers, they expanded on what each job does. Whm got its lily mechanic and skills based around it, Sch got its fairy heal along with its crit resist down, and astro got 2 new cards, 1 for heals and 1 for dps. Not only did this allow to add more to the class without adding more buttons, and allowing the jobs to be more independant from each other, with more intresting skills to acompany each job to better distinguish them.

Just for the sake of another example, tanks have fallen into this as well. Voke, rampart, Convalescence, Awareness, Reprisal, Low blow. These are all pretty important skills to their respective jobs, but by moving them to a big pool for them all, not only has it lessened the bloat of tanks as far as buttons, its made it quite a bit more competitive in the raid scene. Warriors no longer have a strangle hold on the OT slot for comps anymore, as a majority of the reasons it was there to begin with were due to what it brought to the table. With Reprisal in the role skills, storms path isn't a thing anymore, and it can be used on demand! This change among others, is what makes the system shine the way it does.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Ok. ;)



How exactly does putting essential skills in the role ability list along with the less meaningful ones help define the job? If the skills are essential then why make them optional? That's the opposite of defining a job.

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I believe what she is saying is that we will be defined by our unique abilities, not the ones every healer always had.

edit: To play pretend for a moment....

Let's say all healers could have a standard of 15 buttons from their specific job. You could have 10 unique buttons and 5 buttons that were c/p between the healers or you could move those 5 that are c/p out of the mix and have 15 unique buttons.

Disclaimer 1: These are clearly not actual numbers, it is just meant to illustrate a point.
Disclaimer 2: Why don't they move cure etc to cross role then? Because you need basic functionality in your role regardless of what cross-role skills you pick. I am not going going to get into the arguement of whether or not protect/esuna should be considered basic functionality as it has been done to death.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

By putting the essential skills there, they can focus on making skills specifically for the job. Dropping skills like, esuna, divine seal, eye for an eye, into a pool for all healers, they expanded on what each job does. Whm got its lily mechanic and skills based around it, Sch got its fairy heal along with its crit resist down, and astro got 2 new cards, 1 for heals and 1 for dps. Not only did this allow to add more to the class without adding more buttons, and allowing the jobs to be more independant from each other, with more intresting skills to acompany each job to better distinguish them.

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But if the skills are essential, and every job has to take them anyway, then why not just give everyone esuna/provoke/invigorate innately and only let people pick 4 out of 9 skills? What does making essential things optional do for us?

Also, the role ability system doesn't save that much hotbar space, especially if the skills are essential because you probably don't want to move them around if they are. I don't know about every other class, but I had more than enough space for the 2 new WHM abilities on my cross hotbars. And with the consolidation of stones and aero and removal of stoneskin 2 I would have even more extra space. I'll only need about 1.5 cross hotbars in Stormblood, so I won't even need the expanded L+R stuff they've been adding. I'm all set on hotbar space up till 7.0 now.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

But if the skills are essential, and every job has to take them anyway, then why not just give everyone esuna/provoke/invigorate innately and only let people pick 4 out of 9 skills? What does making essential things optional do for us?

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Simply put: Because they won't be essential in all situations. I am not claiming the system is perfect (because it isn't), but I kiiiiiinda see where they were attempting to go with it, and hopefully future iterations will be better.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Simply put: Because they won't be essential in all situations. I am not claiming the system is perfect (because it isn't), but I kiiiiiinda see where they were attempting to go with it, and hopefully future iterations will be better.

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Thank you for helping articulate what I've been trying to say a little better.

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Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu

Thank you for helping articulate what I've been trying to say a little better.

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You're very welcome :)

My Brayflox NM runs on Sch are going to be so damn lit now, ya'll are just haters cuz imma be OP as fuuuuuuk~!

Truthfully, I'd be tempted to take these as my 5 just to show how stupid this system is:

Break
Lucid Dreaming
Swiftcast
Rescue
Cleric Stance

Play my way and be unique with the choices of abilities right?

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

Truthfully, I'd be tempted to take these as my 5 just to show how stupid this system is:

Break
Lucid Dreaming
Swiftcast
Rescue
Cleric Stance

Play my way and be unique with the choices of abilities right?

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I fully intend to "rescue" the tank at least once before he gets cleaved.... and then potentially more often if I don't like the group. ;-]

Nyght, you come off as pretty hysterical. Chill out a bit and you may be able to articulate in a more receptive way. I also like the idea of combining skills that all the classes in a role need. Gets rid of server side bloat and simplifies the experience/communication of tactics.

The issue here is that it appears that we only get 5 slots and 4 or 5 of the options are essential to the role leaving no real 'choice' in the options. Since so many of these 'are' essential, maybe a solution would be a different number of slots for each role. Basically enough to get everyone what is needed and a few slots to play with and experiment. This whole revamp was to fix a problem not add a feature, so they should fix it. Symmetry or no.

Also, and I will reserve judgement for 4.0 endgame, I'm not sure it was a good idea to have put divine seal and shroud of saints up on the role slots. That would clear up 2 slots and leave WHM with more of our identity in place too(not convinced the other 2 healers needed them anyway) We'll see about that, but I have no doubt that they could have done better than the current 5 slot idea plus the current list of 'optional' abilities.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

The other possibility is that they expect people to gimp themselves for each other's benefit. Like, they think the healer will say they don't want to use esuna so then the summoner will take erase to pick up the slack for them. Or the healer will say they don't want to take lucid dream so the black mage will take mana shift to pick up the slack for them. Which sounds all kinds of terrible.

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And why should that be a "gimp"? Every ex primal and 3 out of 4 raids has times where a BLM on ice in a down time of about 5-30s can spend infinite mana without any loss.
Also there are 2 healers and in a comp with a SCH and a BRD, we even bring two guys who can erase debuff without any role ability.

People say esuna is essential? I'd prevent 3x more deaths and wipes with the new rescue ability in an average fight, than anyone with Esuna could do.

People are overthinking that, it's either:

1) Low difficult pug content (dungeons, normal primals, raid): 1-2 mandatory skills (depends if 4- or 8-man content), if people refuse to take them although they know they need them => bad player, how did he get to 70? Get rid of those as always.

2) Hard content with pugs: You're doing hard content in a mmorpg. Take that 20s and talk about strategy or gtfo.

3) Low/hard content with known people: You can make some pretty decent stuff with those optional things.

@Nyghtmarerobu: I have explained myself and my reasons more then once, but again, I am done arguing with you because I know that no matter what kind of reason I give you, you are never going to agree (which again is fine). You've proved that time and again, that you wont listen to reason, and if I am wrong, then prove me wrong, open your ears and actually listen to me, give me a fair chance, instead of constantly telling me that nothing Im saying is a good reason! I have already listened to everyone elses responses, I havent shut them down, Ive listened and have consistently disagreed because most excuses I am hearing from people is that there is nothing wrong with what SE is doing and they've failed to give even the slightest bit of reason as to why. If you are free to disagree, I am free to disagree as well, and you seem to be trying to take that from me, in which case, you havent the right, but if you are not then okay and I am not trying to take it away from others as well.

@Winsock: Ummm yeah like what has already been said by LegoTechnic, those abilities that tanks and dps get that remove certain debuffs and or dots are on a 90 second cooldown and are meant as emergency buttons, not as replacements to Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches.

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Originally Posted by Ootarion

@Winsock: Ummm yeah like what has already been said by LegoTechnic, those abilities that tanks and dps get that remove certain debuffs and or dots are on a 90 second cooldown and are meant as emergency buttons, not as replacements to Esuna, Exalted Detriment and Leeches.

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Please name more than 1 content where you need to esuna more than once every minute or even every two minutes. Dun Scath and?

Mandatory Esuna exists about as often as situations where cover is useful as a PLD.. in about ~10% of all fights.

The main gripe here is it was a skill all three healers already had baked into their kits now being forced into a cross role system, it was completely pointless to do so and no other role/job/whatever suffers from this.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Please name more than 1 content where you need to esuna more than once every minute or even every two minutes. Dun Scath and?

Mandatory Esuna exists about as often as situations where cover is useful as a PLD.. in about ~10% of all fights.

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I think you are exaggerating, it's less than 10%