Need or Greed? A Question of Etiquette.

My personal criteria for rolling need:

1) I really could use it as an improvement. (almost never)
2) I like the glamour/ could use the glamour for something in the future. (infrequent)
3) I am in mighty need of GC seals having just bought a lot of relic items/ saving for more. (rare)
4) Somebody in my party has rolled "Need" on something (and it clearly doesn't reflect #1). The gauntlet has been thrown; I could use extra ventures. (most likely reason)
5) I need to replenish my ventures. (uncommon)

If somebody politely asks beforehand, I will pass for reasons 4 & 5.

Otherwise I'll greed everything for buffer GC seals for ventures later.

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Originally Posted by Cyric

So I recently asked my FC what the etiquette on gear rolling was because I felt like some of the players I encountered in DF roll Need on gear simply because they can. The general consensus among my FC mates was that the decent thing to do is to only roll Need for glamour or upgrade purposes or for unique items (minions, TT cards, etc), which is the philosophy I adhere to. I then became curious what the community at large thinks are acceptable reasons to roll Need.

So my question: Why do you roll Need?

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Depending on why you're in that dungeon in the first place:

a) I need the drop - NEED

b) I don't need the drop, but I could use it - NEED

c) I don't need the drop, or my inventory is full - PASS

d) I don't want this item to be lost if everyone hits pass - Greed.

That's basically it. You should only "Need" things that you need "right now" rather than things you "might need" at some later date. By Need'ing unnecessarily you will end up with a crafting items in your inventory, and those items may be worthless on one server and expensive on another. For gear drops, especially in 24-man raids, only NEED the item you actually want right now, because otherwise you might not get another crack at it for a while.

Also, I've never actually seen a TT card in a loot roll, they're always randomly given. Since you can only have one of any kind of minion, and you can't typically sell them, you should only "need" minions you don't already have.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I mean, that's the unspoken etiquette for loot in every other MMO I've ever played, so...

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But one cant just simply expect the rules from one MMO to go over to other MMOs. Maybe in those you could only get better equipment through dungeon runs so it makes sense that you should only roll onto the item if you need it for an upgrade. In FF14 you have way more ways to gear up so its not necessary to get the dungeon gear. Also not everyone might have played other MMOs or something.

Just dont expect other peoples to follow some unseen unknown code of etiquette that is not even necessary in this game, especially since the system itself shows people that they can loot it if its from their job so why should we just not do it the intended way? (I remember the discussion about hunts where Yoshida and his team wanted it to be more about a group of people finding it and killing it and not the thing it turned out where people are verbally attacked if they dont wait till even the last person of the server is there. This just shows how bad this self-made etiquette can go imo.) I am also quite sure that most people would simply pass on their loot if someone else truly needs it for gearing or even glamour, so one simple question at the beginning of the dungeon should be enough most of the time.

Our FC runs like this for premade runs;

Can you upgrade a piece of gear with this item [yes = Need] [no = Greed]
Was the item a Minion [Greed]
Was the item a Mount [Greed]

In the open world when you are on your own there will always be the greedy players that will hit Need on everything so

Do you need the item for an Upgrade - Need
Do you want the item for glamour - Need
Minion - Need
Mount - Need
Seals - Greed

It would be the only way in a PUG you stand a chance to get anything.

What is the point of need/greed if people just 'need' everything. Your ability to roll need is locked to your job/class for a particular piece of gear. If the action you are going to take on that gear is not dependent on your need-rolling job/class (such as seal turn-on), you are being greedy and should roll greed.

You would not have the opportunity to roll at all if it were not for your party. Roll greed.

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Originally Posted by winsock

What is the point of need/greed if people just 'need' everything. Your ability to roll need is locked to your job/class for a particular piece of gear. If the action you are going to take on that gear is not dependent on your need-rolling job/class (such as seal turn-on), you are being greedy and should roll greed.

You would not have the opportunity to roll at all if it were not for your party. Roll greed.

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But we can only roll need if its something for our job so its not like we can roll need on every single item in this dungeon. Also lets just look at it that way: In a dungeon you only have one tank and on healer. If you want gear from any of these two roles you just simply have to go there as that role and you will get the item (if it even drops!!). So the only role that has a problem is the DD because you might have another ranged/magic DD user with you. If the worst case happens and there is another one with you that can need on the item you just can ask for the item. I believe that most people will pass on it, if you ask nicely for it!

If someone goes into a dungeon and wants gear for another job then why exactly should the one with the job greed or pass on it? I do so if I dont want something for glamour and if that person wants it for glamour..but if you truly want something for that job go into it as that..and if your are not good enough to play that job in group content then why need it anyway?

And no I will not roll greed just because I should be happy that I even have a party..because if you look at it, in that way, nobody is allowed to roll need, not even the newbie that needs it as an upgrade, because he/she should be thankful that there are other three people that went there right? You cant just go around and write this as an argument to greed but exclude certain people from that. And if everyone has to greed, well the chance that the person will get it, is even lower!

I just hope that if you ever need a certain glamour option and have it finally appear after running the dungeon countless of times..and you could need on it because you play as that role (even if you dont like it) that you will roll greed. Because you should be thankful that you even just got to see it drop thanks to your party. ;)

Lets not forget that one can use seals to improve your job too. ;) Items for the relic for example.

If I fight and heal along the other party members and want a particular item - even if it doesn't improve my gear/glamour/seal, I will roll need. I earned the right like everyone else in the party.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And no I will not roll greed just because I should be happy that I even have a party..because if you look at it, in that way, nobody is allowed to roll need, not even the newbie that needs it as an upgrade, because he/she should be thankful that there are other three people that went there right?

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I mean, no one's saying people should never roll need ever. Most of us who think folk should moderate their need rolling view GC seals and desynth as a universal want that's not specific to armor type and that people should roll greed on gear for that, because the entire party deserves a chance at it. Need for upgrade, need for glamour (these two depend on the specific armor type of the gear), and greed for everything else (does not depend on armor type).

In Duty Finder? The etiquette is quite simple. If you can "Need" then if you want hit "Need." There's no need for any justification for doing so other than that you can. Otherwise, you hit "greed." That's not to say you can't be nice and hit the "greed" button if you feel like sharing, but there's no requirement to do so. Simply put, if you are in DF and you want tank gear drops, you run as a tank. If you want caster drops, you run as a caster. It's really that simple. Party Finder is a bit of a different story, and if you are joining a preformed group you want to make sure that the loot rules are to your liking because, unless otherwise specified, preformed parties also function under the need>greed loot system.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Most of us who think folk should moderate their need rolling view GC seals and desynth as a universal want that's not specific to armor type and that people should roll greed on gear for that, because the entire party deserves a chance at it. Need for upgrade, need for glamour (these two depend on the specific armor type of the gear), and greed for everything else (does not depend on armor type).

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I need GC seals for relic items. The relic will be an upgrade for me. So I will need it to get my GC seals. If you need a piece or gear as an upgrade for an alt job, speak up and I'll straight up pass on it, assuming you're within 10 levels of being able to equip it, and I will check. Greed on everything else because, again, GC seals.

I roll need on everything i can
I roll greed on everything i can an never pass even if they ask me.
dungeon gear is the most useless thing ,you will stop using it in 2 or 3 lvs so i will never let it pass to someone else
Im an ass? maybe, but i do need those GC seals

I roll need on everything I can. I'll use the gear in one way or another. I don't really care if someone thinks they can use it more. They're free to win the lot against me if they can need it.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But we can only roll need if its something for our job so its not like we can roll need on every single item in this dungeon...

Lets not forget that one can use seals to improve your job too. ;) Items for the relic for example.

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My point is that if the ability to need role is locked to your job, you should only 'need' if the action you are going to perform on that gear is also locked to your job (ex: equip).

You are being greedy if you intend to use it for GC seals, as any job could use it for GC seals. Why should it go to you exclusively?

Why, in your opinion, is greed even an option on a piece of gear that has a need option tied to your job?

I'm working on my Anima relic, which is an upgrade. I NEED GC seals for some of the items to make it. Just because YOU personally don't NEED GC seals for an upgrade to your gear doesn't mean other people don't. And if the past is any indicator the next relic quest will also probably require GC seals. Not to mention, if you want gear on a specific job, go into an instance as that job, it is neither mine nor anyone else's responsibility to help you gear up your alt job that you can't be bothered to play.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I need GC seals for relic items. The relic will be an upgrade for me. So I will need it to get my GC seals. If you need a piece or gear as an upgrade for an alt job, speak up and I'll straight up pass on it, assuming you're within 10 levels of being able to equip it, and I will check. Greed on everything else because, again, GC seals.

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Again, GC seal turn-ins are not specific to the armor/weapon type you can wear. Everyone in the party deserves a shot at them.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Again, GC seal turn-ins are not specific to the armor/weapon type you can wear. Everyone in the party deserves a shot at them.

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And everyone can easly have a shot at them - by playing the class they want that piece of gear for. Why does a healer deserves a shot at tank-gear? If they wanted tank-gear they should be playing tank.

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Originally Posted by Areonus

I'm working on my Anima relic, which is an upgrade. I NEED GC seals for some of the items to make it. Just because YOU personally don't NEED GC seals for an upgrade to your gear doesn't mean other people don't. And if the past is any indicator the next relic quest will also probably require GC seals. Not to mention, if you want gear on a specific job, go into an instance as that job, it is neither mine nor anyone else's responsibility to help you gear up your alt job that you can't be bothered to play.

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Say a piece of gear drops that you have the option to need on.
In your opinion, why are you presented with a greed option at all? When should one use the greed option when need is available?

Gear can be exchanged for company seals or used for glamour. CS have many uses, specially if your doing relic items and crafting. Common sense would state yes I am playing the role, Yes I get first pick when I need it for other purpose besides actual gear so there for I am playing the role. If a person needs tank gear ( as an example ), Hint PLAY TANK ROLE. ... or you could try asking to see if group is ok letting you have it. It's not brain surgery it's simple common sense.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Say a piece of gear drops that you have the option to need on.
In your opinion, why are you presented with a greed option at all? When should one use the greed option when need is available?

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The Greed option is designed to pass if you have that item already. Rather than waiting out the timer or if people want to be nice.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

And everyone can easly have a shot at them - by playing the class they want that piece of gear for. Why does a healer deserves a shot at tank-gear? If they wanted tank-gear they should be playing tank.

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We're not talking about gear to wear, but gear to turn in for seals.

My question is, "Why are people not playing the job they need gear for if they need gear so badly as to be upset by other people "needing" on gear that they rightfully earned by playing that job"
"Also why is your alt job, which is not in the dungeon, equally entitled to gear that drops when I'm the one currently playing the job, especially if I don't know you even have hat job?"

In short, if you want gear either go as that job or SAY SOMETHING when the gear drops. plenty of people, (myself included) will pass if asked. Don't expect us to handicap our own progression or desires without actually asking.

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Originally Posted by Areonus

My question is, "Why are people not playing the job they need gear for if they need gear so badly as to be upset by other people "needing" on gear that they rightfully earned by playing that job"
"Also why is your alt job, which is not in the dungeon, equally entitled to gear that drops when I'm the one currently playing the job, especially if I don't know you even have hat job?"

In short, if you want gear either go as that job or SAY SOMETHING when the gear drops. plenty of people, (myself included) will pass if asked. Don't expect us to handicap our own progression or desires without actually asking.

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You are avoiding the question. What is greed there for if you have the option to need? What do you think its purpose is?

What if the other party member wants it for the seals, not their alt?

Greed only parties are a thing. And if someone else wants it for seals not an alt, well then they can need on things that drop for their current Job. Gear drops are RNG, I have neither the time nor the inclination of subjecting myself to a second round of RNG just to appease someone else's sense of fairness and cooperation, which is precisely what greeding is.

TL;DR - As we stand now it's considered okay to roll need on things you don't actually need because it's impossible to have everyone act on the same and more selfless manners (even if this probably is preferred by the designers of this game) without shoving it down out throats. This is more out of a practical point of view however, as the current system doesn't allow much practical leeway. It's not wrong but rather commendable of you if you do roll greed though, and let no one tell you otherwise. Some people may laugh at you for following such unwritten rules, even call it self-destructive and such, but you're doing the right thing.

Personally I roll greed on something if it's not an actual upgrade for me at that moment. I just find if you roll need because of anything else but the actual direct upgrade reason it's really your greed making you roll need, which makes the wording used in-game kinda ironic. Maybe that's my biology class in me speaking, where need meant something you require to directly survive. Anything else are desires, which I'll put under the the meaning of greed.

I just find it an ethical disservice towards the community as a whole to not share the chance for others to roll on the drops as well. I mean, I don't directly need it in order to keep playing or having access to this game at all, so in my eyes it's not an actual need in the definition of the word. Just grabbing it because the game allows you to I find akin to saying a whole lot of other things being okay because you have the possibility to. I'm talking about, say, using oversights and loopholes in programming, bugs, etc. Under oversight specifically I classify not thinking extensively about morals when designing a system, an accident in design basically.

I'm saying this because no doubt some will say "but the system was intentionally designed like this". Just try to imagine guys - ask Yoshi-P himself how he ideally sees the players working together regarding this system and how do you think he'll he answer? I'm sure most of you will agree he'd be greatly in favor of people playing 'his' game being thoughtful of each other as this fosters the community as a whole, which is the thing that makes this game such a success. In other words, if he'd have the opportunity to design this system again with the knowledge he has now, he'd probably implement the system differently to prevent needing for greed purposes. This is a good example of where design and intention/morality just suffered an oversight, a lack of thinking ahead so to speak. Or it's possibly cultural difference designed based on how Japanese culture is (the many before the individual) and thus the Japanese developers of this game simply did not think further out of their habits of never needing if they don't actually need it.

What happens now is that a lot of people started rolling need on these things because they're afraid if they roll greed they'll miss out on things because others are constantly rolling need when they don't actually need in the definition of the word. I think because one person doing this usually snowballs three (or more people) into doing it as well we're at an impasse in the current loot system. It requires everyone to make it work ethically right, and only one person to mess said unwritten system up. So unless either the current loot system is being reworked or magically the community perspective changes, the consensus is that it's alright to roll need on things you don't actually need, even if the wording would imply otherwise. Yes, it may ethically cause some grief, but practically there isn't a better way to handle this right now in our (western) community.

Need is there to give a priority roll on something that class can use. What you want to use it for is irrelevant because all uses are equally valid. If more than one person can need, its a lottery between them.
Greed is an equal opportunity lottery for stuff that isn't used by your class. Likewise, all reasons for rolling greed on an item are equally valid.

There is nothing unethical or wrong about rolling need when given the option.

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Originally Posted by Valenth

I just find it an ethical disservice towards the community as a whole to not share the chance for others to roll on the drops as well.

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Except everyone did have a chance to roll on it. Right when the chest opens. RNG decides what gear drops, all Hitting greed does is add a second step to the process, meaning Instead of getting because I got lucky and stuff for my Job dropped, I know have to get lucky twice, whereas the other members of my party only have to be lucky once. That to me seems to be an inherently unfair situation.
There is no ethical dilemma here other than one people are inventing because they FEEL like the system is "unfair."

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Originally Posted by Cyric

So I recently asked my FC what the etiquette on gear rolling was because I felt like some of the players I encountered in DF roll Need on gear simply because they can. The general consensus among my FC mates was that the decent thing to do is to only roll Need for glamour or upgrade purposes or for unique items (minions, TT cards, etc), which is the philosophy I adhere to. I then became curious what the community at large thinks are acceptable reasons to roll Need.

So my question: Why do you roll Need?

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I ask beforehand if I can roll Need if it's for glamour. If it's a pet I already have, I pass, regardless of how much it sells for.
If it's not an upgrade I pass. If it's an upgrade for another class I Greed since it's my only option. If I lose, oh well.

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Originally Posted by Areonus

Greed only parties are a thing. And if someone else wants it for seals not an alt, well then they can need on things that drop for their current Job. Gear drops are RNG, I have neither the time nor the inclination of subjecting myself to a second round of RNG just to appease someone else's sense of fairness and cooperation, which is precisely what greeding is.

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It's not a second round of RNG if you all roll GREED for seals. It's one layer. Something will always drop. Everyone helped with the boss kill. No one needs it for upgrade/glamour? Everyone gets a shot at the loot for seals.

So are we still debating need/greed before or after someone speaks up? Because I can already tell you one implies that people are psychically aware of other people's needs while the other doesn't.

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Originally Posted by winsock

You are avoiding the question. What is greed there for if you have the option to need? What do you think its purpose is?

What if the other party member wants it for the seals, not their alt?

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It's there for if I don't particularly want any of the benefits it could provide, but just so it doesn't hit the floor if everyone else passes. You need the gear for an alt job? Why don't you ask me to pass. If a person is also looking for seals, then I expect them to need on any gear they can as well.

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Originally Posted by Areonus

Greed only parties are a thing. And if someone else wants it for seals not an alt, well then they can need on things that drop for their current Job. Gear drops are RNG, I have neither the time nor the inclination of subjecting myself to a second round of RNG just to appease someone else's sense of fairness and cooperation, which is precisely what greeding is.

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But here is the problem. Needing and greeding are 2 different things. Greed only parties could just as easily need named Need only parties right? You aren't actually defining anything here that separates the definition of need or greed. So in your opinion, why are you given both need and greed options on a piece of gear for your job? If the definition is interchangeable, you haven't defined them at all.

Need is you want it.
Greed is you don't want it to hit the floor.

They're not interchangeable.

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Originally Posted by winsock

But here is the problem. Needing and greeding are 2 different things. Greed only parties could just as easily need named Need only parties right? You aren't actually defining anything here that separates the definition of need or greed. So in your opinion, why are you given both need and greed options on a piece of gear for your job? If the definition is interchangeable, you haven't defined them at all.

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At this point I'm assuming you are deliberately being obtuse. First of all, you never asked for a definition of NEED/GREED you asked "why is greeding an option when you can need?" Which I answered. And secondly, NO a GREED only party could not be called a NEED only party. The entire point of a GREED only party is that everyone is agreeing in advance to not roll NEED on anything so everyone has a shot at every piece of loot that drops, a NEED only party would be fundementally different in that people would only every roll on things that hey can NEED on, which makes 0 sense because then you'd have gear going to waste if no one in the party was playing that particular role/job
And in case my answer to your original question wasn't "satisfactory" here's one from someone else.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

It's there for if I don't particularly want any of the benefits it could provide, but just so it doesn't hit the floor if everyone else passes. You need the gear for an alt job? Why don'tyou ask me to pass. If a person is also looking for seals, then I expect them to need on any gear they can as well.

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Always NEED before ho... errr.

Lv 50+ content, Always NEED, if NEED turned off, then GREED. Never PASS.
Who cares if I can use it or want it or what not, when there is a will there is a way.

Under LV 50 content, always pass. Who cares when there is PoTD.

If the stuff corresponds to your class, you can Need it.

There's no need to debate "rules" when the game has already laid them out for us. Don't like other people Needing "your" stuff? Play on the corresponding class, so you can Need it too. All there really is to it. The people who complain about this system being "unfair" are usually just the ones who think they're entitled to the loot. Hypocrisy much?

Personally speaking, if my *only* intent for a piece of gear is to hand it in for GC seals, I'll only Greed it instead. For any other purpose, I'll Need it instead if I can. But that's just how I roll personally; anyone else can literally Need every possible thing the game lets them Need, and that's totally up to them and within their rights because that's how the game works.

I am still not sure how its greedy to roll need for seals? I went in there as that job and the RNG gave me the drop. Just like they will give them to someone else. We already wrote that if people speak up and want something for an update or maybe a glamour that most people will pass on it. Why should I roll greed if nobody says a word and it drops for my job?

And why there are need and greed options for your job specific drop? Well as a DD in a dungeon you could have the chance that somebody else can roll need on it too. So if you would like the drop but you want to give the other DD the bigger chance to go at it you can roll greed. With that if the other DD does not need it too you still have the chance to get it. But if its only need or pass than you will have to either give it up completely or roll with the other person for it.

Anyway most of the time right now I will only run dungeons to get equipment for seals. There had been runs where I did not get a single items thanks to all of the items being greed only for me and I kinda have bad luck. If its always just greed with barely any chance to get it, well I would simply not run dungeons that much anymore. So a loss for all those random groups. ;) So getting some of those drops thanks to NEED is kinda my payment for running this content. Because I dont need anything else from it.

But in the end if you only want to greed for it, well you can. And if I am greedy in your opinion for choosing need if nobody else truly wants it, well I can live with that. ;)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I am still not sure how its greedy to roll need for seals? I went in there as that job and the RNG gave me the drop. Just like they will give them to someone else.

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Everyone else deserves a shot at seals, too. GC Seal turn-ins aren't job-specific, and it's very easy for people to go into a dungeon and not get any shot at the gear that does drop because someone was rolling Need for seals on everything.

Company Seals. I need em for ventures and the like.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Everyone else deserves a shot at seals, too. GC Seal turn-ins aren't job-specific, and it's very easy for people to go into a dungeon and not get any shot at the gear that does drop because someone was rolling Need for seals on everything.

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Their shot is determined by RNG dropping the gear they can Need on. if the dungeon decides to drop 4 pieces of Tank gear and the Tank needs on it that's RNG favoring the tank. everyone has a shot that RNG will favor their job unless they double up the DPS but RNG still favored them over the Tank and Healer in that case.

it's uncommon for a dungeon to drop stuff for only one role.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Everyone else deserves a shot at seals, too.

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But they also get the shots at the gear if something drops for their job where they can need on it? I mean item distribution can be bad but there should be at least one item in there which you can need on, otherwise you have really bad RNG. And if you are a healer or tank you will be even more lucky because you are the only one that can need.

So people that want it for seals should even roll greed on something even though they might not get it when they will roll greed on it?? I mean you will then have to roll against three other people so your chance to get it is quite small if everyone rolls. No sorry I will roll need if I can do it and nobody else needs it for glamour or upgrade. If the others need seals too they can simply roll need on their items that drops..