What is it with some tanks, healers, and dps?

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Back then dungeons were much harder than today, holding aggro was harder so even DPS was usually aware of what that little bar next to their name meant, trash mobs hit harder, jobs didn't have the countless buffs that accumultated through the years, etc.

This is the problem with increasing level caps, it will be even worse as the level cap increases again and mid levels are even faster or, heavens forbid, we get jump potions.

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In this kind of years some gamers like to pay to get carried sooo... i am expecting an increase of this kind of problems we are facing right now.

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Originally Posted by matteoxyz

Are you sure you're not exaggerating a bit?

I only occasionally encounter any of these issues. The vast majority of PUGs I join are competent, swift and the players courteous.

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Sadly in my case and friends, is too frequent right now.

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Originally Posted by Aeeninwen_Taldel

When I lose aggro, it's basically because my gear isn't as good as it should. As I'm still lowish level, and haven't actually hit 60 yet on any class. For the most part, people are understanding and give me tips to help try to keep aggro. For the most part, I can hold it fairly decently, but there's some cases where it's proven more difficult that it should be. In the end, it is what it is.

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And no one here will bash you because of that, due to the Ilevel we have right now it's normal. We are talking about people who level too fast and just does not know what even a basic rotation is, my girlfriend found a tank in the new dungueons who didnt know how to manage agro with multiple mobs. Luckily the rest of the party could explain him the basics and they pulled it of easily. And that is the problem, at level 60 some players do not know the basics of her class (or they just stay there doing nothing).

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Back then dungeons were much harder than today, holding aggro was harder so even DPS was usually aware of what that little bar next to their name meant, trash mobs hit harder, jobs didn't have the countless buffs that accumultated through the years, etc.

This is the problem with increasing level caps, it will be even worse as the level cap increases again and mid levels are even faster or, heavens forbid, we get jump potions.

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Jump potions and level cap increases have nothing to do with the diminishing player skill. Heavenward content as a whole was merely tuned to be easier. If Stormblood reinvigorated dungeons and actually required you to be reasonably geared and know your basic rotation, all a jump potion will do is force those players to learn immediately. If they don't and try to lazily push through content, it'll be that much harder and others players may be less silently tolerant.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Aside from the players who do not want to learn their role and class, the game itself does not teach you alot about playing your class/role.

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No game does. All of these tab target games took the gamestyle model from EQ/WoW. Tank, Healer, DPS are actually originated from social constructs. Originally player created roles. If you played EQ in 1999-2001 you'd be hard pressed to say what a tank was. Anything in plate? Does that make clerics tanks? Anything with a taunt? That includes Rangers. What about heals? Well the game was originally designed with spells and abilities in such a way that you could take 6 of just about anything and do something with it.

Holy Trinity came later and was devised by players. WoW in 2004 took it a step further and specialized the roles. But there is one issue. As social constructs originally fabricated by players, the roles were meant to be taught to players by players. The system merely exists outside of that.

As a newer gen MMORPG. FFXIV has more clearly defined roles than previous games. It still suffers from the fact that rotations, even within defined roles are taught by players. Look at your rotation for example. Did SE make that rotation? Or was it theory crafters? And I'm speaking of the rotation that gives the highest results.

When a rotation is derived from an outside parser, or changes depending on gear or group make up. That makes it a social construct and not a developer one. So how could SE teach that? They can't. We have to figure it out, then teach it to others. By throwing up our hands and complaining that someone didn't learn their class. We shoot ourselves in the foot. Its our responsibility to teach them. -We- made the optimal rotations after all. If we don't share that information, how else will they learn?

Unless we want SE to make buttons light up for us, indicating the best ability to use at the time. They could do that. It won't be as optimal as our own rotation. But they could do that. I don't want that though.

Isn't there already a thread about this kind of thing? I'm so sorry for ur frustration. You just seem to be getting placed with some ether bad or lazy or just don't players why don't you make a party with people you know will not do any of the things you mentioned in ur OP.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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No game truly can teach it's inner workings to the players. Even if it could, the human brain is a bit better at ripping things apart than machines, anyway(at least for now). But I'll throw my 2 cents following this train of thought.

It's just a shame that the "great community" we have isn't as front and center as it's touted. I mean, not in the content most of us find ourselves in. I simply love the novice network on Goblin and the helpfulness I can offer and receive from those social avenues. It's such a different picture than is painted on the forums.

Yet, in the same vein, I will inevitably find myself required to use the Duty Finder, and all that shine melts away. Very rarely words will be shared. When they are, they tend to be negative- chastising others, singling people out. It's really no wonder both sides of this... "Debate" are so clearly divided. (most of the time it's just complaining)

One side simply complains of the other. "you're bad." "can you even read your tooltips?" "stop being lazy." How does any of that foster any willingness to learn or improve? How does any of that help recognize constructive criticism? It's no wonder that nuetral toned responses to one's play are viewed as attacks.

With the introduction of Palace of the Dead, and more new players being introduced to these endgame skills, of COURSE they wouldnt have the insight on how theyre are used. But- "Might as well roll my eyes and keep my mouth shut. If I ignore, it will disappear after this duty." The mentality seems to be to scoff at these players, or not even bother with them.

There's not really a simple or easy fix for what we find ourselves in... but I really don't think complaining or keeping quiet is going to help matters. If this is how we treat PotD, I can only imagine the state Stormblood will be in with those leveling potions. I feel more of us need to stock up on olive branches in the next 3 months, because I don't see this "problem" going away without them.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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I appreciate the point about sharing information but ultimately only the players who care will look it up. You could argue it\\'s the responsibility of the player base to pass this on in game especially as a "mentor" system exists.

My example today pulled a duty with another mentor who happened to be running the job I main, I checked thier search info and you know the type "Main: X Job, other mains: *list every other job IG with some random ilvl attached*"

I dont expect randoms to be at AS level its DF after all but I expect, especially from another mentor atleast a basic understanding of how to play thier job.

Long story short I after watching him ignore all mechs for 5 mins, eat every aoe, I can only determine that his opener and rotation consists of smashing his face against the keyboard.

These are the people the game determines qualified to teach and I pray no one has every been "taught" anything by that guy.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Jump potions and level cap increases have nothing to do with the diminishing player skill. Heavenward content as a whole was merely tuned to be easier. If Stormblood reinvigorated dungeons and actually required you to be reasonably geared and know your basic rotation, all a jump potion will do is force those players to learn immediately. If they don't and try to lazily push through content, it'll be that much harder and others players may be less silently tolerant.

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Those levels were the best to learn the game's mechanics (32 - 49) as you're slowly getting introduced to different battle mechanics and job abilities, and due to the dungeon nerfs and level cap increase (making people go through them faster due to exp buffs), now there's no "wake up" dungeon where people will think about what they're doing. With HW dungeons (especially Nidhogg's) being probably nerfed, even if Stormblood has harder dungeons we're looking at 80+ gameplay hours of people being trained to not care because the game is too easy.

Even they try to avert this in Stormblood content, we'll run into the same problem that WoW's Cataclysm had with the difficulty dissonance between expansions.

My point is, faster leveling plus dungeon nerfs are leading to a bad difficulty curve.

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Originally Posted by HiroKirito

I appreciate the point about sharing information but ultimately only the players who care will look it up. You could argue it\\'s the responsibility of the player base to pass this on in game especially as a "mentor" system exists.

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That is actually the real problem truth be told. As I've said, good players 'get it' and do what they're supposed to do. What this thread does is confuses the bad players, the ones who also 'get it' but don't do as they should, either because someone else will or they can't be bothered. With the ones who are ignorant. This thread complains about ignorant players 'leveling too fast'. When I have yet to see evidence of that being the cause of group issues.

My experience with bad players has been most recently of one calling me names and other insults because I didn't do something he wanted (it would have wiped the group if I did what he requested). He knew his class, he knew the fights. But he wanted to be in the spotlight and got himself dead because of it. Palace of the Dead didn't cause that. Leveling too fast didn't cause that. His mother and father not using protection caused that.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

That is actually the real problem truth be told. As I've said, good players 'get it' and do what they're supposed to do. What this thread does is confuses the bad players, the ones who also 'get it' but don't do as they should, either because someone else will or they can't be bothered. With the ones who are ignorant. This thread complains about ignorant players 'leveling too fast'. When I have yet to see evidence of that being the cause of group issues.

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Couldn't agree more, the problem is ignorance breeds ignorance and we have people spreading misinformation IG, if you want to learn your role to a decent standard it requires both IG and external resources. Leveling through potds has little if nothing to do with it, "good" players can power level through potds and will put in the effort to understand and optimise thier role.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Players skill is not determineded by the amount of time they spent playing, but the time they spent learning.

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So true...