How would they fix PLD 4.0?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But it would still be better than having PLD lose several skills when in the OT spot. Yet, I don't think all "real situations" requires that much swapping.

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All I am going say is is there a need for PLD to be OT, same as DRK? I would actually rather have PLD and DRK be the MT group, just my opinion ofc and it's for sure easier to tune the 2 classes to be MTs rather than be both MT/OT swap-able. When they decide to release another OT, WAR can be swap-able depending on the contents, just like how PLD is 'normally' favoured in physical heavy fights (LUL). I feel that people who stick to 1 job is silly as hell, heck I was one too (PLD from 2.x till 3.2). If you are raiding, you surely have that time to level relevant jobs to suit your role in your team, feel free to say otherwise. People who are playing casual generally cbf with optimizing etc either so this whole balance issue SHOULD NOT bother them, and even then majority of them actually level different jobs as well.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

All I am going say is is there a need for PLD to be OT, same as DRK?

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For, me, yes, there is. Because even if you have time to level "relevant jobs", maybe you just don't like the job. I recently joined a new raid group, but since the party already had a DRK, I was told that it would be reeeeealllly cool if I could dust off my WAR.

Yes I can...but it's much less fun for me than playing my PLD (Or my own DRK, but stacking is a really really bad idea, so...)...to the point than the last somehow "relevant" content I did as a WAR was solo-tank Ramuh Extreme back in 2.3.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Just want to run a couple other ideas past you, then, that I think might have similar effects to what I think you might be going for...

1. What about just making more attacks interceptable/split-able, and then giving Paladin a passive that allows his intercepted damage to deduct from the total split damage, essentially double-dipping on the idea of Covering for others? Or, if that would be too powerful, at least add his magic and physical defense to the calculations for all others struck by the same split AoE?

Now, this would also mean that DRK and Warrior have more defensive weight to throw around from the OT position too, not to mention DRK pulling more out of Blood Price without having to swap per 40 seconds and Warrior finally having a competitor for triple Fel Cleave in CD usage, but that benefit would ultimately favor PLD versatility and therefore throughput.

[Ideally, for me, this would simply come in the form of progressive AoEs, wherein a certain amount of damage progresses outward and is reduced with each mitigation calculation done against it, from the first person hit (total damage done to next then reduced by the amount mitigated) to the next, to the next, as the AoE spreads or cleaves outward. In this way a party could, say, stack from highest to lowest eHP or Defense against a (somehow undodgeable) Colossus's cleave in order to have every member survive.

Within that system, Cover could simply be a Paladin passive that gives the Paladin a second, enlarged theoretical hitbox. If any singly-striking attack would hit an ally through that hitbox, it instead hits you. Any AoE that would go through that hitbox to strike an ally grants the full benefit of your physical and magic defense to them as well. And with that, Paladin becomes the superior interceptor tank.]

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I'd also slightly change Divine Veil so that the barrier actually scale with the healing received to trigger it. Like 30% of the HP recovered. It would still be a burden to receive a spell to activate, but it would reward good communication between the PLD and the healers to save a powerful spell for that, opening new strategic use for Convalescence...as an OT.

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That will probably be far weaker than is presently the case, given how far tank HP has come along. Keep in mind also, that a single, pitiful HoT tick could trigger it. Do you want to have to click off Aspected Helios and pop Convalescence just to blow DV effectively?

2. That brings me to a possible revision to Divine Veil that you might like, within the same vein of versatility as above, but this time for potential party support. I apologize if I already posted this in a reply to you elsewhere.

Inspire - For the next 12 seconds, all damage, (active) mitigation, and healing you do generates additional primary output stat, Defense and Magic Defense, and maximum HP and MP, respectively, split among all party members within 25 yalms based on range and the percentage change in total resultant stat created. (Bonus HP most affects allies with less HP. Casters receive Intelligence, Ranged and Ninjas receive Dexterity, tanks and melee receive Strength, and healers receive Mind.) Effectiveness increases with total number of party members.

Okay, so the complexity of that would probably make it undesirable to implement, but the idea should be sound. You can use it to enhance the party's ability to absorb raid damage in any of three ways, and can enhance burst. These effects automatically level themselves as to provide virtually no waste, while giving the Paladin additional control through positioning.

Edit: yep, already posted that just a few pages back. Sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For, me, yes, there is. Because even if you have time to level "relevant jobs", maybe you just don't like the job. I recently joined a new raid group, but since the party already had a DRK, I was told that it would be reeeeealllly cool if I could dust off my WAR.

Yes I can...but it's much less fun for me than playing my PLD (Or my own DRK, but stacking is a really really bad idea, so...)...to the point than the last somehow "relevant" content I did as a WAR was solo-tank Ramuh Extreme back in 2.3.

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If you dont like being forced to play certain jobs, quitting the group is easy. I don't see why you should be so fixated about having to be a WAR in the first place. If you like to play PLD, get into a team that is fine with that. No one should be forcing you to do what you don't like.

In fact I did quit a static in 3.1 because I wanted to play PLD instead of doing WAR or even DRK, pretty dumb if I must say. Ever since Midas though I pretty much flex both PLD/DRK and I came to enjoy DRK the most, now I can somewhat do WAR to a degree too as a matter of fact.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

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I've been kicked from DF groups because of the job I happened to be playing.
People will always see the path of least resistance as best, and whatever gets them what they want the fastest as being optimal.
If that means WAR/DRK in the current damage meta, and it allows the DPS to slack off and still clear, then that is what people will want.

Until the meta changes, or there are significant modifications to the jobs and combat system (yeah, right lol), paladin will continue to be a distant 3rd rate tank.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

If that means WAR/DRK in the current damage meta, and it allows the DPS to slack off and still clear, then that is what people will want.

Until the meta changes, or there are significant modifications to the jobs and combat system (yeah, right lol), paladin will continue to be a distant 3rd rate tank.

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There are always going to be the silly sheeps who just follows. People who change to play WAR doesn't mean that they suddenly become so good. It doesn't make sense to bring your 800dps WAR when your PLD does 1.2kdps. It's stupid.

High DPS tanks don't let the DPS slack, if you have low total DPS, your 2 tanks won't be able to carry still. It's rarely an issue tbh.

WAR/DRK while being the current best, it doesnt mean that PLD is no viable. Your thought process is flawed. Balance this balance that, you probably aren't even raiding, big deal. If you just want to be a sheep like everyone else, sure WAR/DRK is best because you say so.

You people are treating PLD like so flawed that the job cant clear etc, when in fact PLD can do huge DPS too, it's just less than what DRK can potentially achieve, and even then DRK is harder to play generally. I have a friend who is really good at PLD, 2k dps in a9s as PLD but his DRK deals less DPS than his PLD. Does it mean that DRK is actually the best? You decide.

The community itself is the huge reason why PLD mains feel shunned while truth is far from it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

1. What about just making more attacks interceptable/split-able, and then giving Paladin a passive that allows his intercepted damage to deduct from the total split damage

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I thought about a kind of interception by allowing Sheltron to block the next attack "in front of you", i.e. even if you're not the target.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

[Ideally, for me, this would simply come in the form of progressive AoEs, wherein a certain amount of damage progresses outward and is reduced with each mitigation calculation done against it

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You already have "progressive AoE" as a specific mechanic, so, it could be weird to apply that on all AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That will probably be far weaker than is presently the case, given how far tank HP has come along. Keep in mind also, that a single, pitiful HoT tick could trigger it.

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Just make HoT not trigger it. Like some skills ignore auto-attacks.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

If you dont like being forced to play certain jobs, quitting the group is easy.

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Raiding is not only about the job, it's also about the people. Changing job to play with people I like is my problem. The fact that this setup is more efficient is the game's problem. Especially when you realize that WAR is much more effective as a MT than PLD and DRK are as an OT.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

You people are treating PLD like so flawed that the job cant clear etc, when in fact PLD can do huge DPS too, it's just less than what DRK can potentially achieve, and even then DRK is harder to play generally.

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This is a twofold problem. First, we're not treating PLD like it's miles below the other two tanks. It's just...below. And second, your highlight on "PLD is viable because it can do huge DPS" still point the fact that everything revolves around personal DPS. If they don't push tanks in different directions, they won't be able to balance them properly as the number of jobs grow, while still retaining a very unique feel to each job.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

I have a friend who is really good at PLD, 2k dps in a9s as PLD but his DRK deals less DPS than his PLD. Does it mean that DRK is actually the best? You decide.

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No, it probably means that he plays his DRK worse than his PLD. One friend is hardly relevant. What do the fflogs rankings say about PLD and DRK ?

Can cover be reworked so that it retains its effect but works like shadewalker and synastry instead of having a tether, I feel like that alone will make it more viable.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Can cover be reworked so that it retains its effect but works like shadewalker and synastry instead of having a tether, I feel like that alone will make it more viable.

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So, just removing its minimum range? I feel like it'd make even less sense at that point.

I think you can stack a lot of stuff on Cover and have it still be pretty balanced. Do something like

Current damage interception + transfers hate generated for the duration to the paladin + heals affect both players. That'd be nice for openers when you have no ninja as well. The range thing I don't care about too much.

PLD Needs....
.... Damage on Flash
.... Some kind of useful utility coming from Shield Oath, boosted regens to resources would be nice or a continuous enemy(ies) debuff while active in range of them
.... Something... anything to Sword Oath. Hell in regards to Shield Oath too, maybe different effects to some skills like how Viper and Wasp effect skills in Ninja.

well. that was a not-so-interesting mishmash of comments from people who think all classes should just be different types of dps, actually responses, and not-so-constructive criticism. welp, time to throw my sword into the proverbial pile.


the following suggestions are going to relate to their shield, one of the two actual unique features that paladin has. and no. I'm not touching flash. seriously, all it does is make a bright light. how the hell do bright lights do damage besides blinding. we're not bashing someones head in with a flashlight people. unless they do indeed get rid of classes all together, in that case i suggest we rename it to Diaga and give it low potency.

Reduce potency of CoS (either dot or potency, not both)
slightly increase it's CD time (no more than 40%)
give it a chance to refresh on successfully blocking (around the same amount as low blow does).
This would allow a pld to do somewhat acceptable damage in an aoe situation, while still preventing it from being unfavorably underwhelming.

Shield swipe becomes usable in sword oath, procs off of the end of an attack combo (either FB/SB/RA combo, or a new one.)
Shield swipe loses 15 potency if activated in this method.
Shield swipe only pacifies if ability is activated via blocking.
This change is probably the most inane, but i personally just hate potential damage that goes unused because you just so happen to not be the main tank at the time.

paladin needs a tp refresh skill. i don't care if it's like equilibrium, invigorate, or goad. it needs one. FFXI had an ability called "chivalry." maybe like that, but it converts mp to tp?

change the order of damage rolls. it should be block and/or parry before critical, not the other way around. an attack should have to get through your skill-based defenses before it has a chance to score a critical blow.


the rest are the pertaining to holy abilities.
frankly, most of the abilities that paladin has received job-wise is fine. two holy abilities we got in heavensward -clemency and divine veil- are both solid.
to expand on this oh-so-massive repertoire there should definitely be more abilities like this.

here are some possible options. and yes, i did lift a few skills from XI.
Holy Circle: all party members in a short radius receive reduced damage from the next magic-based attack. the paladin who activates this skill does not benefit (damage reduced should be a flat number. could be based on level, hp of recipient, or any other factor)
Sacrifice: transfer enfeeblement from target to self.
Embolden: consumes x amount of total mp to gradually restore a target's hp (or all of embrava's effect. in that case it would be hp and mp regen + haste)

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

Reduce potency of CoS (either dot or potency, not both)
slightly increase it's CD time (no more than 40%)
give it a chance to refresh on successfully blocking (around the same amount as low blow does).
This would allow a pld to do somewhat acceptable damage in an aoe situation, while still preventing it from being unfavorably underwhelming.

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Considering the refresh is tied to blocking, it will do nothing for AoE situation when you are not the MT. Building on that, a very easy and less convoluted solution would be to make Shield Swipe a conal AoE on GCD. (With adjusted potency and TP cost)

Chivalry could be interesting, but I'd say it could swap your MP and TP (percentage-wise), to cover situation where you need a boost of MP.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Chivalry could be interesting, but I'd say it could swap your MP and TP (percentage-wise), to cover situation where you need a boost of MP.

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*spams clemency, uses chivalry, spams more clemency* infinittte clemencyyy

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Originally Posted by LilLemay

*spams clemency, uses chivalry, spams more clemency* wait for the cooldown on Chivalry

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Fixed that for you :p

My thoughts on a few things that could help PLD:

Give PLD a reason to use / manage MP
This could help make the PLD a better OT while simultaneously helping with TP issues. For example, what if clemency gave a small damage buff to the target party member:
* The dps increase could more than make up for the dps loss of casting
* PLD isnt using TP while casting
* OTing lets PLD use MP restoration combos more frequently.

Rework Block
PLD is the only one really using the block mechanic. There is opportunity here. My suggestion would be that a successful block gives vulnerability up to the target who was blocked, which does 2 things:
* Increases PLDs MT party contribution vs physical
* Increases the PLDs AoE damage contribution (again vs physical)

An important thing to note about this is that the above benefits of a block rework exist while in or out of tank stance. PLD gets crap for poor AoE, but the lack of direct AoE damage is one of the things that makes PLD unique IMO: They get such horrible returns on Sword Oath in a large pull that it behooves them to use Shield Oath, and I dont think that is such a bad thing.

Give pali shield oath at level 30, cut the MP cost of clemency to 500. They need to cut the aoe ability cd to ten seconds, and cut CD of spirits within compelty.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering the refresh is tied to blocking, it will do nothing for AoE situation when you are not the MT. Building on that, a very easy and less convoluted solution would be to make Shield Swipe a conal AoE on GCD. (With adjusted potency and TP cost)

Chivalry could be interesting, but I'd say it could swap your MP and TP (percentage-wise), to cover situation where you need a boost of MP.

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Though, the more practical application for that would be to swap in typically useless mana for infinite TP, recovering the remainder of said otherwise mostly useless mana via passive regeneration and GB combos in order to then swap it again as soon as the CD's up. With the present conventional (non-)use of Clemency, the only real issue would be to ensure that you have enough TP (-> MP) to Flash a few times before adds spawn, which would mean using it soon enough after Chivalry falls off CD, with mana maximized (thereby making Clemency even less desirable until the MP and TP values are swapped).

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Give pali shield oath at level 30, cut the MP cost of clemency to 500. They need to cut the aoe ability cd to ten seconds, and cut CD of Spirits Within completely.

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When factoring in Convalescence, which affects only Healing Spells (not Healing Abilities), Paladin already has the highest healing output over time of the three tanks. At present, it almost requires those lost GCDs just to balance out that potential. I could understand wanting it not to disrupt combos, or to give it some small auxiliary function (within the same role of an emergency heal), but such a low MP cost would mean the 1200-1680 potency heal could, on average, be used once per combo, or to deal over 10000 potency of healing per minute, while a Warrior averages to a mere 1800 per minute, getting only mildly closer through the doubled duration of Bloodbath.

Circle of Scorn is already tied for the strongest direct AoE oGCD in the game, at an equal 10 pps, same as the Monk's Elixir Field, pre-multipliers. Only the field AoE abilities, Flaming Arrow and Salted Earth, and the Summoner's long-CDed Enkindle are stronger. Note also that ALL of the Paladin damaging abilities create the same maximal pps—Shield Swipe deals 150 per 15, CoS does 250 per 25, and SW does 300 per 30 (up to 10 pps in each case). And these make up a substantial part of overall Paladin damage. Increasing CoS dps by 150% would be the equivalent of adding a free Flare to your tri-combo rotation.

And removing the cooldown from Spirits Within completely? What? That would increase overall Paladin dps by some 227%, so long as they stay at maximum health. Double-weaved, that would be an extra 600 potency per GCD, which previously averaged to a mere ~470 each.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Though, the more practical application for that would be to swap in typically useless mana for infinite TP

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Since PLD is the only tank to have access to real "spells", I'd rather make those MP more useful.
Like I said before, if Clemency would have a barrier effect, it would be a much better skill. And I hope PLD will have more spells in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

if Clemency would have a barrier effect

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mmmm more like a regen effect, barrier effects or get overpower like scholar ones or get pretty useless on combat like stoneskin, but all depens too of how they desing the new combats and how the jobs go to interact in the expansion too, i belive a regen can be more universal and usefull for paladin if they add a effect on clemency.

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Originally Posted by shao32

barrier effects or get overpower like scholar ones or get pretty useless on combat like stoneskin

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Regen is a really weak proactive mitigation, which is the whole point of PLD. Stoneskin is a good spell, but does very litte when the situation is already risky. Having Clemency covering both healing and mitigation could be really powerful.

On a sidenote, I'd make the barrier from Clemency stack with Galvanize by being the same status as Divine Veil (Thus, not stacking with Divine Veil). Again, it could offer powerful GCD mitigation...but that's not a problem. PLD is supposed to do that, and keep in mind that Clemency still uses a GCD and interrupts combo, reducing your own DPS...but allowing others to do more damage (MT staying out of tank stance, a DPS able to eat an AoE to stay at close range, etc...)

Hell, I still think Block could be a GCD action without any real balance issue...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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yeah of course but looking of today for example that upgrade become useless in term of mitigation, with being so focus on DPS and the actual power of the healers and the sch/ast shields, if paladin is MT is still have the problem of get cast interrup getting more dps lose for just a shield that a healer can put on you more easy and lose less dps that paladin, and if we go to the OT side storm path is still better that clemency in that field plus all the dps war brings.

i dont say is a bad idea more when looks like paladins go to lose stoneskin with the battle system revamp, but many changes need to be done to make that clemency being more usefull, like adding a surecast to paladin for the MT spot yeah can work very nice, idk is hard to imagine a change like that without knowing what they go to do, in the actual status i see that dont go to change much the status of the paladin, but in a scenario where healers lose healing power, boses hit with more sustancial damage an less raw damage and less dps checks then yeah i can see that clemency very powerfull, i say regens bcs no mather the path devs go to follow in the expansion that buff can adapt, but yeah thinking about it still gets the same problems in the MT spot with the shield version, but can be a better gain bcs can be on more longer.

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Originally Posted by shao32

yeah of course but looking of today for example that upgrade become useless in term of mitigation, with being so focus on DPS and the actual power of the healers and the sch/ast shields, if paladin is MT is still have the problem of get cast interrup getting more dps lose for just a shield that a healer can put on you more easy and lose less dps that paladin, and if we go to the OT side storm path is still better that clemency in that field plus all the dps war brings.

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The idea is not to push WAR away, but offering a strategic use of PLD as an OT. A PLD OT could cast Clemency on a WAR MT without fearing interruption, allowing the WAR to skip even more Defiance uptime.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The idea is not to push WAR away, but offering a strategic use of PLD as an OT. A PLD OT could cast Clemency on a WAR MT without fearing interruption, allowing the WAR to skip even more Defiance uptime.

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i dont mean push WAR away (even if they deserve it), all tanks deserve being played, just point that upgrade in the current meta and the current status of healers dont go to solve nothing saddly, players want DPS, just that dps dps and more dps, adding more mitigation tools to paladin for others like that yeah can be fit by how paladin is and all that stuff, im agreed, but ppl go to still choosing the best comb for more dps for know, a extra shield dont go to make ppl sacrifice DPS when the actual healers can shield you and top you in seconds whitout any effort.

but lets say its happen what you say, PLD OT become desirable thanks to that clemency, this only go to change PLD place with the DRK, WAR is better MT by mitigation and utility, and DRK OT sucks by now changing PLD for DRK in this threat, i feel they need to focus PLD with DRK in the MT role, making both universal utility (dps) equal and keep they own str and weaknes improving the MT status with more rewarding mechanics, this of course if we get another tank how by desing shine more in the OT spot like WAR and have a balance of 2 vs 2.

i dont belive giving such mechanic is good for a 8 man party, actual healers are doing nothing excep DPS most of the time, adding that just go to make players go 2 tanks 5 dps 1 healer, like i say that skill effect can only work in a scenario where you dont want to break the number of role members in a party and the overall healer vs bosses status is change making that "extra" heal shield worthy and helpfull.

While PLD needs more OT abilities, one thing I would like to focus on with PLD, is how its playstyle is pretty much "sit back and observe" rotation simplicity.
But I'd like to keep it, while improving it.

An example would be a mitigation thats on a relatively short CD (once a min) and its potency and duration are based on your current HP.
If you HP is above 80% its duration is 10s, and its 1% dmg mitigation.
if your HP is above 40% (Below 80%)its 20s duration, for 2% dmg mitigation.
if you HP is above 20% (below 40%)its 5% mitigation for 10s.
if below 10% its 20% mitigation for 6 seconds.
if below 5% its 30% for 15seconds. (optimal, but unreasonable to attempt)

Along with a similar improvement with Spirits within. Silence always happens, but the dmg multiplier really relies on being high HP.
Anything below 75% is lowest possible potency.

in general, this should help some ppl have something to maximize on PLD, who feel ist boring, but also make PLD seem ok still even if they like the more lazy play style.
(This actually feels more like a DRK mechanic, but since PLD already has spirits within...)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hell, I still think Block could be a GCD action without any real balance issue...

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I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

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hmm maybe tie it into bulwark? IDK I like the idea of giving PLD more spells, I fear that the role-cross skills might devolve its identity then i remember clemency is vastly superior to cure and DV is pretty much Stoneskin, with that utility after recieving a heal which could definitely be adjusted to spread like deployment tactocs fpr sch without taking its effect off the PLD?

Wasn't it shown that Sword Oath PLD was extremely competitive as OT now after the buffs? The problem with PLD is that their DPS as MT is *FAR* below DRK and WAR. As OT though, they're pretty on par. The dps gain from Sword Oath is huge -- you won't see big numbers like WAR or DRK, but the autoattack potency adds up.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Wasn't it shown that Sword Oath PLD was extremely competitive as OT now after the buffs? The problem with PLD is that their DPS as MT is *FAR* below DRK and WAR. As OT though, they're pretty on par. The dps gain from Sword Oath is huge -- you won't see big numbers like WAR or DRK, but the autoattack potency adds up.

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I (and many) feel that PLD was already better as OT. OT to me is WAR>PLD>DRK. If a DRK is not getting attacked it loses blood price, reprisal, and low blow procs.

PLD plays like a "classic" tank; lots of mitigation tools, a little healing, more defensive abilities than the other two tanks. I've seen good numbers out of PLD MT stance dancing but yeah, its still lower than DRK. But if they equalized DPS among the three tanks in the MT role I don't think that would be good for balance either.

WAR sure owns the OT spot. I guess with three tanks even if one is the strongest MT (but worst OT), another the strongest OT (but worst MT), the other tank doing both "OK" isn't going to leave many players happy. I'm sure the answer is tough.

I almost promise 4.0 will give PLD a decent AoE attack though.

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Originally Posted by shao32

I dont mean push WAR away (even if they deserve it), all tanks deserve being played, just point that upgrade in the current meta and the current status of healers dont go to solve nothing saddly, players want DPS, just that dps dps and more dps

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Here's the catch. Parties want more DPS. If you have a job with poor personal DPS but with such group utility that it pushes other's DPS, you can take it in a DPS party. And when you look at what's the dreadest part of tanking when you focus on DPS, you see that it's "having to use tank stance". PLD's role as an OT would be to act as the MT "tank stance".

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Originally Posted by shao32

but lets say its happen what you say, PLD OT become desirable thanks to that clemency, this only go to change PLD place with the DRK

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You'll also need to make DRK more desirable as an OT. The idea I had for DRK is to have party leech abilities, reducing the need for BRD's song or MCH's turrets thus, allowing them to keep their DPS at full power more. For example, I'd give Sole Survivor a higher uptime and, if you use it out of Grit, hitting the target will refill the attacker's TP.

If you want to keep DRK and PLD as the MT type, you have to keep WAR as the OT type, which is a really big problem, since you can end with two WAR in a DF setup.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I think there would definitely be a balance issue if the same meta / mindset carries into Stormblood, but short of that, I too would love to see skillful on-demand blocking from GLDs/PLDs.

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I don't see how. By having GCD block, you'd just have to chose wether you want to deal damage, or reduce them.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Wasn't it shown that Sword Oath PLD was extremely competitive as OT now after the buffs? The problem with PLD is that their DPS as MT is *FAR* below DRK and WAR. As OT though, they're pretty on par.

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Yes, as personal DPS, SwO PLD is not bad. But it loses so much of its utility that, if for some reason your WAR is the MT, you'd better have a DRK as an OT.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you have a job with poor personal DPS but with such group utility that it pushes other's DPS, you can take it in a DPS party

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yeah but you have already that with PLD, stoneskin, cover, clemency and divine veil, this 4 skills are what you want but you ask for have all in 1, is more simple reduce cover coldown with is instant and use clemency to heal the target after the hit, paladin have already this utility and dont help hem with the currtent meta, adding more dont go to change nothing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If you want to keep DRK and PLD as the MT type, you have to keep WAR as the OT type, which is a really big problem, since you can end with two WAR in a DF setup.

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that theory was built around getting a new tank in this expansion, obiously if we dont get it we need to improve OT and MT spots bcs have 3 jobs for 2 spot is alwais a damm maddnes, puting DRK in BRD/MCH utility field i dont think is go to be a good idea without more extra work on balance those 2 with the rest of the dps, tank balance fly around of WAR utility here the storms path and eye, is more simple put that buffs like a personal buff instead that a party one, same for DRK reprisal.

my vision for a better balance work around reducing that raid utility buffs to a role side like much, dps raid buffs only for dps, tanks for tanks, healers for healers, adding more and more raid utility to make a job usefull make other jobs performance need to work around that utility to work at full potency like NIN need a WAR, with more jobs incoming and sure the 5.0 we get more jobs this going to be worse, PLD have a lot of utility but cant mach with the storms.

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Originally Posted by shao32

paladin have already this utility and dont help hem with the currtent meta, adding more dont go to change nothing.

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I don't think so. PLD just don't have enough of it. Divine Veil is either too weak or have a too long CD, on top of not affecting the PLD itself. Especially if you compare that with Storm's Path, (or even Delirum, since DRK use it on its optimal rotation) that can have 100% uptime if needed.
Having to "waste" a GCD to cast a long heal and another GCD to put up Stoneskin is just crippling, considering Clemency will probably hit an already healed target (If you have a preemptive healer) and that Stoneskin will be removed by the next auto-attack, while leaving your target at the same HP.

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Originally Posted by shao32

that theory was built around getting a new tank in this expansion, obiously if we dont get it we need to improve OT and MT spots bcs have 3 jobs for 2 spot is always a damm madness

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The problem is still the same with 4 tanks. Any tank needs to be viable as a MT, because you can't "force" a setup, and an OT-oriented tank will likely offer a higher DPS for a non-noticeable-if-even-truly lower mitigation. So, basically, if we have a 2nd OT-oriented tank, it will just push PLD and DRK away.

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Originally Posted by shao32

puting DRK in BRD/MCH utility field i dont think is go to be a good idea without more extra work on balance those 2 with the rest of the dps

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You can't simply balance jobs on a 1-on-1 basis. The only way to create a proper balance is by creating a synergy. If you create a synergy between DRK and BRD/MCH, it won't change the personal DPS on those. But, a BRD/MCH will do higher numbers if a DRK in your party. It's exactly like the piercing or slashing debuffs.

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Originally Posted by shao32

my vision for a better balance work around reducing that raid utility buffs to a role side

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You can't really do that. Would you remove the slashing debuff from WAR ? Would you change Battle Litany and Trick Attack to only apply to DPS jobs ?

The good point of having multiple jobs is precisely that no job should always be above others. You should always say "This job is better if we have that other job..." in a "party-setup-rock-paper-scissors" balance.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I don't think so. PLD just don't have enough of it

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PLD have a lot of it, is the tank with more mitigations tools, improving that raid or outside mitigation tools dont solve nothing for now bcs tanks only need to survive the hit, having any extra mitigation dont go to prevent nothing more if you use the example of WAR mt the job how have the most agro generation and DRK is not diferent, even NIN solve that with shadewalker, all that extra mitigation only can work the first weeks of progresion only, the rest of the time PLD go to take away bcs they utility is unnecesary like now by getting propergeared or overgeared and getting better overall DPS in the end, players go to avoid that mitigation if its not necesary for take more DPS, the healer go to heal the tank anyway, so or you make PLD can keep the MT after the hit alone or become useless again, a shield is only for tank busters, a regen effect its can be for all the fight.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Any tank needs to be viable as a MT

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being viable MT dont mean being better at MT with is diferent, all tanks are actual viable in both spot, DRK and PLD are by far better on MT but only WAR is better on 2 spot primarily by the actual desing of our tank stances making us being MT whiout it and letting the WAR dont have to face they defiance penalty, the actual desing of the jobs prove they put DRK and PLD for the MT get benefic of being hit and WAR for the OT with they burst set, just they fail on the tank stances making WAR can avoid all that was supose to sacrifice in that spot.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Would you remove the slashing debuff from WAR?

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it can be a posibility, not remove the effect but being a personal 10% damage buff instead, storm eye is the most powerfull buff for now not only incresing the damage of the tanks, they buff and improve a lot ninja rotation, its actually so huge for being a main combo for WAR rotation, meaby on DPS no, we all do dps anyway, so we can keep battle litany and trick attack, apart excep monk no other dps job is "taking away"

buffing by buffing its a game breaking in the end alwais get out of control, control and put a limit of raid utility spreading it betwen all the jobs its good, geting more and more without control no bcs the next threat we go to get can be for DRK or WAR or what new job its coming crying bcs no one want it in they party.

[QUOTE=shao32;4027482]PLD have a lot of it, is the tank with more mitigations tools, improving that raid or outside mitigation tools dont solve nothing for now bcs tanks only need to survive the hit, having any /QUOTE]

Warrior to me Is just the best tank period , and I somewhat main a pali, they have the highest potency attack in the game fell cleave, along with storms eye. I think a few things can be done to help pali but many disagree, I think a quick start would be to change the oaths for one its just common sense give pali shield at level 30 why they haven't done this is beyond me. Give pali more damage aoe, warrior has 3 including overpower, drk has 3 including unleash. Paladin has an ability it can use ever 25 seconds while both of the other tanks can use flash, but in a game build on speed runs I think its a disservice to force pali to only weave their combos to get damage on all mobs and wait 25 seconds to hit everything at once.

The cooldown should be brought down to at least 10 seconds, they also should lower the mp cost of clemency I think that 2000 plus is way to much considering how easy the other tanks have access to some of their better abilities. Also they should lower the gcd of spirits withing , the potency isnt that high to be on a 25 second gcd when its also yet another single target ability. As it stands RA potency is 350, with both other tanks having abilities that outpace this from 100 to 150 potency, at the least they could give paladin more aoe, and make some of their abilities more accessible sense they automatically will always do less damage than the other tanks. The mitigation of paladin is overstated to me a bit with awareness being cross class, sentinal doesnt really stand that far above shadow wall to me.

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Originally Posted by shao32

PLD have a lot of it, is the tank with more mitigations tools

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He has a lot of self-mitigation tools. When it comes to mitigating damage for the party, it's actually the weakest.

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Originally Posted by shao32

improving that raid or outside mitigation tools dont solve nothing for now bcs tanks only need to survive the hit

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Yes, and most of the time, the really meaningful hits you have to survive kind of requires your tank stance, even for only a few seconds. Give PLD something to counter even that, and it will have something to offer different than WAR or DRK.
The idea is, basically, if you have a PLD OT, your MT doesn't need its tank stance.

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Originally Posted by shao32

being viable MT dont mean being better at MT with is diferent

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In a DPS centered meta, it's almost the same. What do you need to be a tank ? Basically, generating enmity and surviving. Enmity is clearly a non-issue, so let's put that away. PLD might be considered a "better MT" than WAR, because, with (debatable) more self-mitigation, it can survive more. But, as you said earlier, "as long as you survive enough, more is useless", and since WAR does more damage, as long as he's viable, he's better.

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Originally Posted by shao32

it can be a posibility, not remove the effect but being a personal 10% damage buff instead, storm eye is the most powerfull buff for now not only incresing the damage of the tanks, they buff and improve a lot ninja rotation

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They already have Maim for that...and on 2nd-tier WS. But remove Slashing Debuff, and you'll have a horde of WAR and NIN raging on the OF for years :p

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Originally Posted by shao32

we all do dps anyway, so we can keep battle litany and trick attack, apart excep monk no other dps job is "taking away"

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Yes, we all do DPS. And since jobs are "balanced" between high personal DPS and high raid-utility (Mostly DPS :p), it's only logical for tanks to play by the same rules.

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Originally Posted by shao32

buffing by buffing its a game breaking

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I think it's less game breaking to indirectly buff DPS by opening strategic setups than by buffing personal DPS. And since DPS is the only meta that matters (saddly) this is the only lever for job desirability.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

snip

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well i dont say no to damage buff to paladin to even match at least DRK, but if i rememver well yoshi say PLD go to follow the same path of the lowest DPS tank in 4.0 too so idk, PLD have a great set the problem is irrelevant by the conten.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

if you have a PLD OT, your MT doesn't need its tank stance

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this, this is the worse, ask for changes around avoid tank stance instead of improve it, thats the most think broken by now apart of WAR utility, shield oath and grit are obiously not desing to get turn off and on like defiance does and watching carefully the penaltys and the buff this give to you is easy to see are made to act like a balance of each tank performance, thats why WAR have the high damage penalty and PLD have less, if not then is not sense to have a damage penalty, tank stance need to be a good skill for being MT.
i tank whitout grit bcs the meta ask for it and im doing it good, but is uncomfortable for me, i "hate" how PLD and DRK get "forced" to follow the WAR stance mechanic, the 20% less damage taken is no longer a incentive to use it anymore and its pretty sad actually, i hope in 4.0 they improve it to make it mandatory when you MT as at the same time they desing more tank swap mechanics to incentive the stance dance around what spot are you going, but running out shield/defiance/grit 95% of the time is practicly a waste of space the stance, change it like a remporal emity buff and done bcs it that what they are now.

and about storm eye debuff i dont think so, its not like its go to change WAR gameplay bcs is still the primary damage combo thanks to main and high potency compared to storm path (with primary i mean is alwais need it and the only combo it get change on WAR rotation is butcher for path when are need it), and for ninjas they can ajust the potency of some skills to ajust that dps loss even with the new skills so i dont think they go to get enrage either.

well this is FFXIV not SWTOR we go to get more and more new jobs so balance go be more harder and harder with time, in this game we dont have buffers like a role so we have buffs around all the jobs, utility is get very mandatory in heavensward but at the worse level at posible, if you dont have the utility what match in the meta you are out, thats PLD, MNK and little by little WHM, yeah MNK save it more or less bcs they have the best personal dps but for now WHM is going at the same place of PLD thanks to AST overbuffs, but its a game, yeah strategic setups are fun but all we want to play with the job we like more when we want it, they add a lot of utility to the jobs on heavensward and i hope they take it all and spread it around all the jobs to make it have equal level of performance betwen at least 2 or 3 diferent setups and please for god i hope they change they mind about this actual raid desing, coil was glorious in terms of dificulty, this raw enrages gatling they use was so bad.

People just need to stop comparing other games because they are fundamentally different in the core.

No great PLD/DRK in this game wants to pull first if possible, you are wasting too much steam from 1 GCD switching. This is the main core issue at the highest level, the minor one being having the penalty from ShO/Grit. Also why WAR pulling is just the best, as long as you have NIN you can get away with aggro issue from WAR using Storm's Eye first and without Unchained at that. You know how busted BB combo being part of WAR's DPS rotation.

This balance is so delicate at the top but you know SE won't bother adjusting skills to cater the 1% of the raiding population. With that said, please don't act like you guys know how it feels at the top trying to maximize when MOST of you have not touched any raid in 3.x, all I can say. Every jobs remain viable and that's all that matters to the developers.

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Originally Posted by shao32

thats why WAR have the high damage penalty and PLD have less

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Hmm, not, his is not...Defiance has the highest penatly because WAR is able to maintain a permanent 32% permanent damage buff. But you're right, ShO and Grit are not made for stance dancing, so give us a way to not require stance dancing. PLD and DRK already avoid them as much as possible once raid progression is done.

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Originally Posted by shao32

i "hate" how PLD and DRK get "forced" to follow the WAR stance mechanic

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At the core, I also don't like that. But judging at how they "fixed" PLD in the past, they won't try to change the meta. Why would they change ShO and SwO to not break combos if we weren't supposed to switch between them ?

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Originally Posted by shao32

and about storm eye debuff i dont think so

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Then you must be new to the OF :p People rage just about everything that can be considered a nerf. They complained about the VIT change for WAR, even if the relative damage was the same between the three tanks...

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Originally Posted by shao32

well this is FFXIV not SWTOR we go to get more and more new jobs so balance go be more harder and harder with time

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Yes, it will, be. Especially if you want to balance jobs 1-vs-1.
We want to play the jobs we want, and it's easier to do if you can find a synergy between 2 or 3 jobs instead of "Nope, WAR is better, deal with it". It's not that hard to have one player who plays MCH or BRD when you're a DRK. Or if you create a synergy between one tank and casters, to find a BLM, a SMN...or a RDM.

They should gate Royal Authority behind Sword Oath, and up the potency.
Alter Savage Blade to have increased potency in combo while in Sword Oath. instead of increased enmity.
Gate Rage of Halone behind Shield Oath.
Get rid of the crappy auto attack buff on Sword Oath completely.
Add a stacking mitigation buff triggered by successful parry or block.
Add a job ability that burns stacks and, while in Sword Oath, does single target damage, and in Shield Oath, does AoE damage.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

They should gate Royal Authority behind Sword Oath, and up the potency.
Alter Savage Blade to have increased potency in combo while in Sword Oath. instead of increased enmity.
Gate Rage of Halone behind Shield Oath.
Get rid of the crappy auto attack buff on Sword Oath completely.
Add a stacking mitigation buff triggered by successful parry or block.
Add a job ability that burns stacks and, while in Sword Oath, does single target damage, and in Shield Oath, does AoE damage.

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I want to hit 'like' on this but im not entirely sure how I feel about it actually getting implemented

after
a moment of thought im terrified to see pld only using roh only while mt again