Remember When Tanks Asked Before Large Pulls?

Because FFXIV has Gates in every dungeon so that pulls don't become to big.

In wanderers places you could pull every mob to the 1st boss. That's a big pull. Now you only get 2 groups of mobs then a gate.

I really feel like though if things where more difficult this is just my opinion but then you would have more rage quits , it hasnt happened to me much but Ive heard that alot of people rage quit aurum vale, or quit before the first pull is even made.

But I know in any content that is challenging in the slightest that their will be people that will quit after the first failed attempt knowing that the content isn't easy. So to me to have harder dungeons its gona take those that que up for df to have more patience or they will just need to run it with their friends only. Because I've seen people that generally want to learn certain content but those impatient people just leave or go off and start pulling adds on their own, just doing something because they don't have any tolerance for people.

And I dont know if it happens in the expert roulette but in my experience if a tank is gona do a big pull please make sure that you get every single adds full attention. Alot of times this doesn't happen and a healer shouldn't have to heal themselves heal you , dps and dodge the adds that are trying to kill them.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I really feel like though if things where more difficult this is just my opinion but then you would have more rage quits , it hasnt happened to me much but Ive heard that alot of people rage quit aurum vale, or quit before the first pull is even made.

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Yea I haven't seen that many rage quits since the intro of the blocks but I've seen that in the past tank pulls everything they can and then dies and rage quits the dungeon after only one death.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

And I dont know if it happens in the expert roulette but in my experience if a tank is gona do a big pull please make sure that you get every single adds full attention. Alot of times this doesn't happen and a healer shouldn't have to heal themselves heal you , dps and dodge the adds that are trying to kill them.

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Tank here on how this happens: When I'm mass pulling, every pack gets a Flash on the run. I should tag everyone no problem. If that's all that happens, it'll all go smooth.

The problem comes when people get overeager and don't let the pull finish. Remember that, in the middle of a big pull, we're not gonna stand in place waiting for another GCD, it's AoE on the run. So, if you start laying out heals on me before I have them all grouped up and can ACTUALLY establish aggro, you're gonna have a bad time. Trust in me to survive until I can get them all grouped up. My whole toolkit is about survival.

Edit: Also Regens. That causes it a lot. I am always clicking off Regens during a big pull so that the healer isn't getting hate.

Edit 2: Sorry, one last thing. Some trash packs are spaced out so wide that tagging them all at once can be almost impossible. In cases like that, rather than slow down the pull for a second GCD, I believe it's better to let the stragglers chase after the healer or whoever until the pull is over. Just keep running. Once the pull is done, run them to the tank so they can pull them off with AoE threat gen.

I once said the following in a different thread, which still holds true to this discussion:

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Originally Posted by Aldora

The bottom line is that when you are playing a game with other people (like FFXIV), you are actually playing with other people. Everyone has a different kind of skill set, certain amount of experience, etc which might not be similar to your own.

However, since you group up to tackle different kinds of content, you are asked to work together as a Team in order to complete the said task, like for instance clearing a Dungeon. When you are working as a Team, you should look out for each other so that everyone crosses the finish line together.

I read a lot of things like:

• If you don’t keep up, you suck
• Healer: If you don’t wait for me (to finish my buffs), i’ll let you die
• Healer: If you don’t pull less, i’ll let you die
• Tank: If you pull ahead of me, i won’t take the monster off you (and let you die)
• Tank: I keep pulling multiple packs. If you can’t keep me alive, you suck
• Healer/DPS: If you don’t pull more, i’ll pull more for you
• If you don’t switch to DPS stance (referring to Tank and Healer), you suck
• Etc

All of these comments display the wrong kind of attitude when you are playing with other people as a team. It doesn’t really matter if someone is faster than you or even not as fast as you. If they are as skilled as you or not as skilled as you.

Most of the comments i read are rather “self centered” and lack team spirit. Even if only 1 person can’t keep up with the rest of the group, that single person is just as valuable to the team then the rest.

As a member of a team, you are expected to do your job to the best of your abilities. Some people work better under pressure and improve faster when placed in stressful situations, but not everyone will be able to. There are plenty of people who will panic in situations like that, or simply won’t be able to function properly.

That doesn’t necessarily make them a bad player. They might need more time and less stressful situations in order to “blossom”. They may even need a guiding hand in order to teach them things they didn’t manage to figure out themselves.

Which brings us to the next point. When reading comments on the forums, it’s pretty plain to see that we (as in the general populous) are unable to properly communicate with each other. We call each other “trolls”, slap each other in the face with insult, aren’t open to suggestions or even in some cases able to properly phrase a suggestion so that it won't “feel” like it’s “forced upon them”. We take offense to almost anything, take things personal and react rudely to things that don’t go the way we want them to go. We don’t have any patience and insult people/kick players/vote abandon at the first sign of mistakes or even a wipe.

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/5680000/...a83209fe41.jpg

It seems that it’s hard to find a sense of (team) effort, camaraderie, community, support and most of all fun in the things we do as a group. Apparently we don’t see games as a form of relaxation anymore, but a competition or a job.

Perhaps it’s time for us as players to take a good look at ourselves and wonder how we got to this point and how we (as human beings) can change that.

I mean, taking things down a notch to ensure that the entire group makes it through the duty will feel a lot better then rushing towards the end and be frustrated about the amount of damage the group does or the amount of deaths/wipes we faced during the said duty. If you see someone struggle, why throw insults? Why not talk about it and try to help instead?

Sure, not everyone listens. There are bad apples in every community, but for every bad apple there are a hell of a lot more apples that make a pretty damn fine juice when mixed together. Aren’t we all thirsty and crave for such a juice?

Just, don’t go fight fire with fire. You’ll only going to get yourself burned in the process.

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Sometimes, mostly when reading threads like this or the “Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.”-thread, i think to myself: “Why is it that we can’t simply work together when playing this game?” Is it really that hard to talk to one another, relax and play with each other, rather than “jumping at each other's throats”?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Saving CDs for emergencies is usually a bad thing. Especially short 60s ones like Swiftcast, Tetra, Aetherflow(incl. the 3 stacks, i.e. sitting on '6' stacks for emergencies), Divine Seal, etc..

I rather use those 15x in a dungeon than once in 15 dungeons. :3

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It is true that saving cooldowns for emergencies is not really the way to go, but i wouldn’t go as far as calling it bad. Like i’ve mentioned in my quote above, everyone has a different kind of skill set, certain amount of experience, etc which might not be similar to your own. Not every might be as comfortable with a class or stressful situations than others. Some people work better under pressure and improve faster when placed in stressful situations, but not everyone will be able to. There are plenty of people who will panic in situations like that, or simply won’t be able to function properly.

As people, we should be able to respect that try to work with them nonetheless. I believe that this is where the main problem lies. We want others to adjust to us, rather than adjust ourselves to others.

One of the arguments used, would be “One most adjust themselves to the majority of the group”. However, this is only true to the extend that everyone can follow suit. When you are running “group content” (like Dungeons) in Final Fantasy XIV, you are asked to work together as a Team in order to complete the said task. This also means that you look out for each other.

If you have a tank, who’s struggling to maintain hate, or a healer struggling to keep the tank alive. The fault shouldn’t be placed solely on the tank who couldn’t maintain hate, because the majority rest of the party wanted to pull more. The fault also shouldn’t be placed solely on the healer, who didn’t manage to keep the tank alive during a bigger pull, just because the tank pulled more than the healer could handle.

You are all in this together. The most important thing about working together, is communicating with each other. And by that, i mean come to a mutual agreement and taking every member in the party into consideration (even the members who are struggling to keep up).

However, this also means that you have to put your best foot forward and give it your all. Put all of your skills to the test and try to improve yourself as well. You can only improve, if you strive to be better with each attempt. After a while you will notice that you will have less trouble keeping hate, or keeping the tank alive during bigger pulls.

“You can’t advance by standing still.”

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I'm not going to waste my swiftcast on a spell that doesn't take very long to cast. It should be saved for raises, in the event that a party member dies.

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Trust me. When i started playing this game as a White Mage healer, i was one of those people who said that “Healing is my main priority, not DPSing”. I started off simply focussing on keeping the party alive, but as i gradually progressed throughout the years, i kept improving my skills to the point where i can DPS during most of the dungeon and still keep the party alive.

This doesn’t happen overnight, so you have work for it in order improve. First thing that you need to learn, is to put trust in both your own skills as well as the rest of the party. Don’t plan for emergencies, plan for smooth successes. Expect every run to be something you haven’t experienced before and be as flexible as you can possibly be.

I also kept my Swiftcast available for when i had to raise others, but if you trust your own skills enough, you’ll find out that you won’t be using Swiftcast at all during the entire run. Since the cooldown of Swiftcast is rather short, it’s safe to use it for other things like Swiftcast > Stoneskin (II) while running towards the next pull or before starting a boss battle. During a boss battle, you can Swiftcast > AoE Regen/Shield so that you will create more breathing space for yourself to do other stuff (like buffing or DPSing).

It takes a bit of practice and confidence, but you should be ok.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Most frequented dungeons are fairly simple for many players and so they go in with the mentality of wanting to finish them as quickly and as efficiently as possible. In something like Xelphatol or Gubal (Hard) that translates to 'big pulls' more often than not since a lot of people have the sort of gear that makes such acts fairly trivial.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Because dungeons are too easy and offer no challenges? Pulling the maximum amount of mobs finishes the dungeon quicker before everyone falls asleep.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Experts have become so easy, you have to be asleep to not handle big pulls. The sole exception can be the last stretch of mobs before the Owl boss in GGH. More than a few healers or tanks aren't ready for the amount of damage, though it's less of an issue nowadays. I wish dungeons actually required me to work towards big pulls. Sadly, we haven't seem even remotely hard dungeons since The Avery and Vault. It's pretty sad leveling content is harder than the supposedly experts. Admittedly, I won't do small pulls in Xelphatol. Call me an elitist but it would actually take less time if I left it and ate the penalty. That is how absurdly easy it is.

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What you guys are saying is true for a lot of people, but that mostly has to do with the fact that there are quite a few people who are pretty much overgeared for the content (even the content that’s being released on Patch day). Because of this, all of the level 60 dungeons feel extremely easy. But, this doesn’t necessarily have to be same for all of the players. People who haven’t played the game for quite a while are still in the process of gearing their classes/jobs. They won’t be as overgeared for the content as we are.

One of the reasons that Aurum Vale is still considered to be one of the hardest dungeons in the game so far, has to do with the fact that you’re synced down to level 49. Some of the more vital skills are locked behind level 50, so you won’t have access to those.

So, in light of that, try running dungeons with the “Minimal iLvl”-option active. You’ll experience the content for the item level it was “designed” for. This will have a pretty big effect on how fast you’ll be killing monsters and the damage they deal to you. Burning down bosses, skipping phases and ignoring mechanics should prove to be a bit of a challenge at least.

Think back to a time where you were running Amdapor Keep and Wanderer’s Palace with your iLvl50-ish AF gear. Those were fun times, right? Now, why not give that “Minimal iLvl”-option a go with the level 60 dungeons and see if you can get that same feeling back.

At least, i’m planning on doing that with a couple of my friends. Just for the fun of it.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

**snip**

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Agreed!

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Originally Posted by Aldora

One of the reasons that Aurum Vale is still considered to be one of the hardest dungeons in the game so far, has to do with the fact that you’re synced down to level 49. Some of the more vital skills are locked behind level 50, so you won’t have access to those.

So, in light of that, try running dungeons with the “Minimal iLvl”-option active. You’ll experience the content for the item level it was “designed” for. This will have a pretty big effect on how fast you’ll be killing monsters and the damage they deal to you. Burning down bosses, skipping phases and ignoring mechanics should prove to be a bit of a challenge at least.

Think back to a time where you were running Amdapor Keep and Wanderer’s Palace with your iLvl50-ish AF gear. Those were fun times, right? Now, why not give that “Minimal iLvl”-option a go with the level 60 dungeons and see if you can get that same feeling back.

At least, i’m planning on doing that with a couple of my friends. Just for the fun of it.

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Level sync has been horribly neglected. When I looked at coming to FFXIV, level sync seems like a wonderful option because it held out the possibility that older content would not become completely irrelevant due to over - gearing. But even with the relatively soft level/ilevel sync we have, people still complained and so we get to run things unsync'd. Yet the level/ilevel sync remains as soft as ever.

I'd love it if the rewards for dungeons were improved a bit, but only when running with strict level/ilevel sync, and to have the level/ilevel sync in DF tightened up in general. Too many players, especially those at end-game, have forgotten how they got there, sometimes it even seems that they have forgotten how to play without the advantage of a massive over-gearing.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Tank here on how this happens: When I'm mass pulling, every pack gets a Flash on the run. I should tag everyone no problem. If that's all that

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I pretty much main tanks and healers palidan/drk, whm/astro now im not saying im the best tank in the world but for me if I see that I dont have aggro on an add even if someone pulled them I go back and get that add or at least try a lob or something if they are out of reach.

But most of the time I dont really get the same from other tanks when Im healing some tanks dont try and pull aggro off of me even if it wasnt my fault to begin with and they just missed the add. And I learned about the regens I dont do them during pulls anymore not until the tank has all the adds they are gona get. But I just think some tanks expect you to heal them and if a stray add gets you ,kill that add and everything is suppose to be fine , and I dont get that because I tank also myself and Id at least try.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

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Tanks should absolutely go peel if something gets loose. Anyone who doesn't is a jerk. During a mass pull, though, sometimes it can't be helped, and you have to wait until the pull is over. Stopping a pull short to grab a straggler ends the pull: when you stop going, ground AoE's go down, so continuing after that is a no-no. If someone gets a straggler on them, they should run to the tank so they can pull it off. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to peel a mob and the guy it's on is running straight away from you.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So I havent done any hw dungeons yet , so you guys are saying that all of the dungeons before it the level 50 ones and stuff like stone vigil, and level 44 dd is harder than all the hw dungeons? Just a question of clarification?

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Wait!! is it really you!? Are you ... are you really ... are you my SISTER!?!?

(tear drops...)

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

The HW leveling dungeons are of ok difficulty, tbh (although of course if you're overgeared you'll still breeze through), it's the endgame ones (lvl 60) that are laughably easy

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Is that not because they are designed more with the MSQ gear in mind rather than the gear that end-game players acquire from raiding? Aren't the level 60, non leveling dungeons are kind of there as a challenge for players who don't raid? As such, their balance is therefore based on the gear that players who do not raid will have access too. End-gamers with raid gear will overgear such content.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Is that not because they are designed more with the MSQ gear in mind rather than the gear that end-game players acquire from raiding? Aren't the level 60, non leveling dungeons are kind of there as a challenge for players who don't raid? As such, their balance is therefore based on the gear that players who do not raid will have access too. End-gamers with raid gear will overgear such content.

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As someone who has not touched Alex Savage raids, the 60 dungeons are still laughably easy in Tomestone gear.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

awesome quote of awesomness

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I like you.

Agreed and very good read. I hadn't seen the topic that you originally posted it in. People really shouldn't let people die to prove a point like you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I'm not going to waste my swiftcast on a spell that doesn't take very long to cast. It should be saved for raises, in the event that a party member dies.

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In a dungeon I really wouldn't worry about using Swiftcast on protect at the beginning. One minute cooldown is really short. It'll be up again to use before the tank finishes pulling the first set probably.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I like you.
In a dungeon I really wouldn't worry about using Swiftcast on protect at the beginning. One minute cooldown is really short. It'll be up again to use before the tank finishes pulling the first set probably.

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Why are people encouraging poor manners? This shouldn't be a thing.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Why are people encouraging poor manners? This shouldn't be a thing.

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They're not encouraging poor manners. They're discussing how to properly deal with your tank exhibiting poor manners.

Once a new dungeon has been out for a bit, I'd say the pulls become commonplace. So much so, that when a tank does smaller pulls I get confused. I do hope the formula changes in 4.0 though, more dynamic dungeons are a must.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Why are people encouraging poor manners? This shouldn't be a thing.

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Where did I say I was encouraging poor manners? All I did was respond to your concern that Swiftcast is needed for raises and such.

Using swiftcast is one solution to the problem where people run away too fast; you said you don't want to use it to save for more important casts, but fact is the cooldown is very short so you can use it at beginning just fine.

Another solution is to ask people not to do that; not everyone realizes it messes up the healer especially if they've never played healer. So you could try to tell them this.

At least think about what I responded to before making random claims I said something that I did not even remotely say. I was only responding to your concern about swiftcast cooldown not about people running away before buffs.

Why do you even post comments if you going to answer like this to someone trying to offer you some insight.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

They're not encouraging poor manners. They're discussing how to properly deal with your tank exhibiting poor manners.

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Exactly this yeah, he explained it well ^

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The problem comes when people get overeager and don't let the pull finish. Remember that, in the middle of a big pull, we're not gonna stand in place waiting for another GCD, it's AoE on the run. So, if you start laying out heals on me before I have them all grouped up and can ACTUALLY establish aggro, you're gonna have a bad time. Trust in me to survive until I can get them all grouped up. My whole toolkit is about survival.

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This should pretty much end the discussion.

I mass pull and don't ask because... why? The vast majority of parties can handle mass pulling with ease.

Honestly, the real question should be, "Why don't tanks ask if it's OK for them to do small pulls?" Because that's the outlier situation that people either want small pulls or can't handle the big ones.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

What you guys are saying is true for a lot of people, but that mostly has to do with the fact that there are quite a few people who are pretty much overgeared for the content (even the content that’s being released on Patch day). Because of this, all of the level 60 dungeons feel extremely easy. But, this doesn’t necessarily have to be same for all of the players. People who haven’t played the game for quite a while are still in the process of gearing their classes/jobs. They won’t be as overgeared for the content as we are.

One of the reasons that Aurum Vale is still considered to be one of the hardest dungeons in the game so far, has to do with the fact that you’re synced down to level 49. Some of the more vital skills are locked behind level 50, so you won’t have access to those.

So, in light of that, try running dungeons with the “Minimal iLvl”-option active. You’ll experience the content for the item level it was “designed” for. This will have a pretty big effect on how fast you’ll be killing monsters and the damage they deal to you. Burning down bosses, skipping phases and ignoring mechanics should prove to be a bit of a challenge at least.

Think back to a time where you were running Amdapor Keep and Wanderer’s Palace with your iLvl50-ish AF gear. Those were fun times, right? Now, why not give that “Minimal iLvl”-option a go with the level 60 dungeons and see if you can get that same feeling back.

At least, i’m planning on doing that with a couple of my friends. Just for the fun of it.

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This isn't a good excuse anymore. I'll be frank in saying Expert dungeons shouldn't be accessible to literally everyone. It offers no incentive whatsoever to actually upgrade your gear when the stuff at Heavensward's release is the current ilvl. Inexperienced or poorly geared players should be funneled into leveling and older content which they might benefit whereas Expert should be focusing on the veteran player. A primary reason people have no idea what they're doing is this game does a horrible job at teaching. The same lack of incentive mentioned above applies to abilities as well. Plenty of people don't even realize they're doing low damage because the devs frown on any form of parsing. Simply put, Xelphatol and Gubal Hard should be in the 230-240 ranges imo. That basically pushes people to upgrade into at least lore gear. Yes, I know one is story but I feel they should either push a little harder at this point or unshackle dungeons from the story. Content we're expected to run for nearly four months shouldn't be something I don't even need cooldowns for as a tank or stand 90% of it in Cleric Stance as a healer.

And before anyone mentions it. No, this doesn't mean I or anyone else want Savage equivalent dungeons. I won't speak for anyone else, but I want to actually need my job specific abilities. If I'm tanking, I should be using cooldowns. If I'm healing I should be healing at least a good portion of the dungeon. I shouldn't have to pull the entire room just to have any semblance of a challenge-- a term even then remains loosely defined. Weeping City and higher levels of PotD are good examples of reasonable difficulty. It's been seven months or so and Weeping has held up almost the entire time. I'd love if dungeons had even half that longevity.

As a tank, I always pull big. In this day and age it is to the point where it is better to assume the group is capable than the other way around, because 9 times out of 10, the group is capable. I don't want to sit there, hold everyone hand, have a peaceful pow-wow, burn some incense, and ask for permission to pull big...only to hear the party say 'Yes, get the fuck on with it mate.' If I am wrong, and the party can't take big pulls? My bad, now I know, let's start again, with smaller pulls. This is the same reason I don't tag every single mob with a '1, 2, 3, and 4' to goad them in to attacking enemies in order. I'm not here to hold you hand, people...my job is to hold hate, and take the damage. Not set up a three-point plan on how to engage combat, and who to attack.

As a healer, I expect the tank to crash out of the starting line like a sprinter on crack. this is why I don't even bother casting Stoneskin II. If the party wanted it..they'd stay. If they don't care...they are off to the races. No skin off my back. Sure..I can Swiftcast Stoneskin II...but why expend my resources for someone else's impatience? They don't want Stoneskin II...that's fine...let's move on. This is the same reason I don't cure the black mage that sticks like glue to his Laylanes, no matter what enemy attack marker is underneath him. I don't cure stupid. You want to stay in your laylines come hell or high water so you can get that 'mad deeps yo'? Then expect to die because of it...I'm not wasting my resources on your dumb ass.

Edit: Correction. I do cast Stoneskin II...but I don't swiftcast it. If they are out of range to benefit, their bad. Those who stay for those 3.5 precious seconds reap the benefits.

Remember when you assume everyone acts the same, talks the same, has the exact same mannerisms? No? I do. :rolleyes:


Don't assume, OP. :)

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

As someone who has not touched Alex Savage raids, the 60 dungeons are still laughably easy in Tomestone gear.

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Indeed, but the tome gear is essentially almost as goo as raid gear isn't it? I guess I should have been more specific and said that the dungeons would appear to be balanced for the best gear available in the MSQ without using Tomes or raiding. But I do understand your point, and anyone who has been playing for a while will have at least some tome gear. even so, I think the dungeons are balanced to a lowest common denominator, aka whatever the best from MSQ is.

As an aside, recently leveling up my DRK after coming back from a half year break -- at what ilvl is it okay to try to do these 'large pulls' (which I assume are all mobs from gated area to next gated area/boss)? Still working on gearing since I just got 60 a few days ago, but like to plan in advance :) Thanks ^^

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Indeed, but the tome gear is essentially almost as goo as raid gear isn't it? I guess I should have been more specific and said that the dungeons would appear to be balanced for the best gear available in the MSQ without using Tomes or raiding. But I do understand your point, and anyone who has been playing for a while will have at least some tome gear. even so, I think the dungeons are balanced to a lowest common denominator, aka whatever the best from MSQ is.

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Honestly, it turns Savage more into a glass cannon scenario. Most of the bigger mechanics will still severely hurt even with 270 gear. You can simply cheese through certain ones a bit easier. For example, DPS generally eat the first Optical Sight in A11S nowadays. Crafted gear made that much harder to pull off without making your healers cry. Unfortunately, current dungeons are easy enough even lore gear would be more than enough without much hiccup. That's where the issues lies.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

As an aside, recently leveling up my DRK after coming back from a half year break -- at what ilvl is it okay to try to do these 'large pulls' (which I assume are all mobs from gated area to next gated area/boss)? Still working on gearing since I just got 60 a few days ago, but like to plan in advance :) Thanks ^^

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My guess? When you are at least garbed fully in Lore gear. Could get away with it with just some Dravanian stuff mixed in with Lore gear too, I'd imagine. It's not hard. Use cooldowns, convalescence to help healer out, spam your AoE hate a bit more to secure group hate. And soul eat to help out when needed.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Snip

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I had to go back and check to make sure, but MSQ stops giving gear at level 58. That 145 ilvl alone would only get a player into The Aetherochemical Research Facility, Neverreap, and The Fractal Continuum. Which means to advance into any dungeons beyond that, you need to get dungeon gear or hunt for seals. Both give tomestones, so there would be no point in not upgrading some pieces to Lore or Scripture. I suppose you can get crafted gear too, but that is also outside the realm of the MSQ. Dungeons are suppose to appear balanced at their respective minimum ilvl, which a lot of players surpass on release, without effort if they did any gearing the previous patch.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

As an aside, recently leveling up my DRK after coming back from a half year break -- at what ilvl is it okay to try to do these 'large pulls' (which I assume are all mobs from gated area to next gated area/boss)? Still working on gearing since I just got 60 a few days ago, but like to plan in advance :) Thanks ^^

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ilvl 230 and up, really. Lower ilvl usually only requires a bit of cooldown management to handle. You should be more than fine pulling huge and spamming Dark Arts + Abyssal drain. The only pull I'd be somewhat wary of (or at least warn your healer) is grabbing everything after the second boss in GGH. You can Living Dead it to give the healer time to DPS freely, but again, I'd warn them beforehand if you're at a low ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

ilvl 230 and up, really. Lower ilvl usually only requires a bit of cooldown management to handle. You should be more than fine pulling huge and spamming Dark Arts + Abyssal drain. The only pull I'd be somewhat wary of (or at least warn your healer) is grabbing everything after the second boss in GGH. You can Living Dead it to give the healer time to DPS freely, but again, I'd warn them beforehand if you're at a low ilvl.

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That's where the healer should keep their best cure spells ready (Benediction being the best, if you got them.) The only difficult part through healing that section is the start...the moment where you get hit with the demon's cross slash as you are getting in to postion, among a few others if timing is bad. This is the only time where you might need to heal the tank BEFORE he gets in to position, rather than after..which can fuck up hate.

Just make sure you have convalescence ready above all, and then your biggest damage mitigation abilities next. Prepare to lose hate on a few because the healer MIGHT need to heal you before you can establish it, and you are good to go. But honestly, since Abyssal Drain is ranged, grabs hate, heals you, AND can be cast while on the move...you might not even have trouble establishing hate.

Thanks for the quick replies all - I think I'm around i233 atm? So I guess I'll try for some larger pulls after warning the healer and party ^^ I'm using HQ250 melded with CRIT and DET, atm, mixed in with a few scripture and lore pieces.

I don't really ask, mostly cause I'll just get "I don't care" or "do whatever you feel like" the few times people even take the time to reply, I just tell them "speed pulls unless you request otherwise, I don't really care either way". The reason is people don't want to be blamed if something goes wrong. The tank ask what they want, they say large, group wipes, person who asked for large pulls is at fault. On the other hand if you tell them it's speed pulls unless asked otherwise they can safely agree without fear since they can just blame the tank like always. Or in the rare case request small pulls for one reason or another. The only rule is: Always let them know, might be an easy dungeon, but that healer might be half asleep or dealing with a cold and not up to speed run standards.

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Originally Posted by AdventZero

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The Healer/Tank is actually not *always* the culprit, depending on the situation, on speed runs. I've played some dungeons where it was the DPS that were causing problems or were majorly at fault for being reckless. If the healer can't handle a large pull, you'll know once you have to restart if you didn't ask LOL. Pulls like that can be rough, even on someone with a decent amount of healer experience depending on the dungeon and how versed your party is on the battle flow.

Not disagreeing with you, but I just felt like that should be mentioned. Most players simply have a fluke or just can't keep up with the action. It happens, but there are definitely some instances where someone just.....sits there, hampering the group on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Because dungeons are too easy and offer no challenges? Pulling the maximum amount of mobs finishes the dungeon quicker before everyone falls asleep.

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Funny you'd mention that. I find myself bored when tanks large pulls. It means I have to stand there and play healbot because there will be no chance for me to DPS safely and then the dungeons takes longer to complete.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

Funny you'd mention that. I find myself bored when tanks large pulls. It means I have to stand there and play healbot because there will be no chance for me to DPS safely and then the dungeons takes longer to complete.

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What dungeons are you talking about? Because the "expert" dungeons (and lots of level 60 dungeons) enable you to do safe big pulls. So maybe you came accross bad tanks that won't pop a cd ever? Or are we talking about leveling dungeons? because yeah, these are tough when it comes to do mass pulls. Both the ilvl and level synch are a bane for mass pulling in these.

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Originally Posted by Blonde_Huntress

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I know, that comment was more focused on people not answering me then about who gets blamed for what. When ever I ask what kind of pulls people want and they say something along the lines of "I don't care" I can't help but think: "No, you do care. If I pulled small right now you'd be upset that this 15-20 minute dungeon run just took 30-45 minutes." But, not wanting to start anything, I never say it in game. Instead I've just come up with a theory that their scared of me, the big mean tank (I don't really think this about myself), getting all mad at them for making me do large pulls when I might not want to, or are even able, to in the first place. So I guess you could say it's just something I sarcastically tell my self as I set off to large pull for my silent and not caring no opinion parties when I get them. ^^;

Edit: I should note that groups who don't want large pulls will normally tell me. It's just the ones who do want large pulls who get all silent about it.

I wish they would ask, but they don't. I get tired of big pulls, especially if we don't have the dps and the tank is paper. It means I can't help so the pull takes forever. But since big pulls are expected, tanks do it when they really shouldn't.

If YOU as a healer ask for small pulls, they bite your head off.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

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Unrelated, but I echo the sentiment that big pulls are a snoozefest, both as a tank and as a healer, and have been so since the middle of the 2.X series. Regardless of role, I come close to dozing because AoE is so ridiculously simple to perform. You could macro it as pretty much any job and lose very, very little in the damage department.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And small packs aren't.

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Well, I find small packs more engaging because then I actually need to start using a proper rotation in order to bring them down quickly, rather than, as an example, hitting Cleric Stance and my macro that chain casts Aero3 into several holies.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Unrelated, but I echo the sentiment that big pulls are a snoozefest, both as a tank and as a healer, and have been so since the middle of the 2.X series. Regardless of role, I come close to dozing because AoE is so ridiculously simple to perform. You could macro it as pretty much any job and lose very, very little in the damage department.

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And small packs aren't? If I pull 3-4 mobs at a time and you're my healer, I literally have no use for you. Seriously, you could /sit and I wouldn't even notice because small packs just don't hit hard enough. Equilibrium, Inner Beast, DA + Abyssal Drain and Clemency make healers utterly irrelevant unless tanks pull the room. Hilariously, three of those abilities don't even have cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Well, I find small packs more engaging because then I actually need to start using a proper rotation in order to bring them down quickly, rather than, as an example, hitting Cleric Stance and my macro that chain casts Aero3 into several holies.

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For one, macro-ing abilities like that is a notable DPS loss. You should never macro anything except to give a chat warning (raise, berserk and etc). Anywho, you should still be Holy spamming with small pulls. Three mobs nets a combined potency of 540 per cast whereas Stone III is only 210 on a single target. Considering the tank will need no healing whatsoever, MP wouldn't be much of an issue. So I don't see where exactly you get to use a rotation. Likewise, DPS jobs are similar. Rockbreaker, Doom Spike and etc all remain a higher potency overall than single target abilities on 2-3+ mobs. Small pulls basically amount to the exact same thing. It only takes longer.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

Funny you'd mention that. I find myself bored when tanks large pulls. It means I have to stand there and play healbot because there will be no chance for me to DPS safely and then the dungeons takes longer to complete.

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It is perfectly fine that you find large pulls boring. The fact is though, larger pulls are proven to be faster in 60 dungeons. There is really no opinion on it and it is silly to suggest otherwise. I'm assuming you are referring to lower level dungeons because at 60, as a healer you have more than enough skills/abilities to throw out some heavy damage while being able to keep the tank alive. My mistake if the OP was in fact referring to tanks practices pre-60. But at 60, now? There is no reason not to pull more than 3 monsters per group. You're only spending more time than necessary.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I'm not going to waste my swiftcast on a spell that doesn't take very long to cast. It should be saved for raises, in the event that a party member dies.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

I am not a bad healer. Nobody dies the first minute, all I'm saying is that it would be nice if healers slowed down enough for other roles to do their jobs.

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Dude, what? Do you not remember what you said like a few pages ago or you like slapping yourself?
JUST.USE.THAT.SWIFTCAST.

The thing is,I've been playing tank since 2.1, and I've changed my way of tanking to adapt to mass pulls, because... when we, as tanks, don't...

If YOU as a tank don't do mass pulls, they bite your head off. (and it's been a growing tendency even before I joined the game, as a matter of fact, but I think the main reason it became that important is Brayflox HM, 2.2...)

It goes both ways, really. You as healers or DDs mostly see tanks doing mass pulls because you don't tank, but me, as a tank, I see DDs and healers angry because I'm willing to take it slow (especially in leveling dungenons)... You can't just blame the tank community here, because that's the global mindset of the whole community : dungeons have to be done quickly. It's so important now that, leveling an alt as WHM, I often have to ask the tank in low level dungeons (Sastasha and such, where no one has AoEs, basically...) to not do mass pulling... and they're novices. And this is perfectly useless, because mass pulling is only useful when everyone has AoEs, when the party's DPS is higher using those AoEs than hitting only one target at a time... But mass pulling is so important in this game now that many people don't even remember that. Mass pulling is what this game consists of, nowadays, and while I do think it's a shame (I'd much rather have smaller, harder groups and longer dungeon), that's the way this game is designed. Because that's what the community, the most of them at least, want.

So why would I ask in a dungeon everyone does daily for lore tokens if they mind doing large pulls ? Of course they'll won't. And if they do, no problem, they tell me after the first pack "I'd rather have you doing smaller packs", and I don't complain. And I agree with AdventZero : usually, when a healer is not confident enough in its abilty to sustain you, he'll tell you. And there's no shame in it...

But of course, there are also players, like Bourne_Endeavor or Lufir seems to be (I don't have anything against you two, I'm just making a point here, and your exemple right over the typing box was perfect for it) that think everyone is geared enough to do large packs... But sometimes, and it happened to me recently in Xelphatol, not only is your healer rather short on his gear, but so are your DDs as well... So basically, you have a poor DPS, and while the healer can theoretically heal you, its MP will go down so much that you'll either need to wait for him to regen between two pulls, or just do smaller pulls. And as nobody likes to just sit and do nothing while someone's MP are loading, doing small pulls is, if not faster, much more appreciable. It isn't so common, though, but I'm sure both Bourne and Lufir would adapt in this situation...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

For one, macro-ing abilities like that is a notable DPS loss.

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I know it's a small dps loss to macro abilities, but the alternative will put me to sleep! Like I said before, I find using my full suite of abilities much more engaging than mashing a single button non stop for however long it takes. Much more efficient to make a macro to spam that one ability endlessly while I browse the forums.