i am not mass pull tank

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

As a healer I usually prefer smaller pulls, because then I can go all out on dps with no worries. Usually I get the opposite and have a tank pulling above their paygrade and I have to babysit them with heal spam just to keep them alive and can't even toggle clerics stance on.

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you're healer...why would it bother you that you can't dps? if you're so concerned about it...go dps job? then you def don't need to worry about healing anyone, or babysit the tank.
the most annoying thing about going as a healer, is when tank doesn't take any damage, and dps is slow, and i need to dps -.- i want massive pulls, so i can actually do my assigned job, and leave the dps to the jobs that are actually good at it, unlike shitty healer jobs
"then I can go all out on dps with no worries" that's like saying you're going to melt butter in the fridge...

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Originally Posted by Radacci

you're healer...why would it bother you that you can't dps? if you're so concerned about it...go dps job? then you def don't need to worry about healing anyone, or babysit the tank.
the most annoying thing about going as a healer, is when tank doesn't take any damage, and dps is slow, and i need to dps -.- i want massive pulls, so i can actually do my assigned job, and leave the dps to the jobs that are actually good at it, unlike shitty healer jobs
"then I can go all out on dps with no worries" that's like saying you're going to melt butter in the fridge...

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But...
<3 {Gravity} <3

Pull hard or go home.

No one who does big pulls started out doing big pulls and executing them flawlessly. Inherently by pulling lots of mobs you will be taking more damage, so this means you have to be comfortable with managing that damage intake so that you don't give your healer a heart attack. This is fairly simple and mainly boils down to properly using your defensive CDs, though this is often not necessary in shorter pulls. Something that's helpful to know is that healers are, frankly, overpowered in this game.

When you are doing single pulls, you'll probably notice that most healers heal you once or twice (in the case of SCH not even that) and either twiddle their thumbs or contribute DPS. This is without even using defensive CDs or even tank stance. So essentially when you do it that way your only concerns are to make sure the mobs are hitting you and make sure you're hitting the mobs. Now I know that there are inherently varying skill levels from player to player, but literally just standing there and hitting buttons is something a monkey could do. It might seem scary at first to pull big, and I can assure you that you'll probably mess it up and die or cause really bad healer stress your first few times doing it. But, like all things, the more you do it the better you'll get. By learning this important skill you'll speed up your dungeon runs and help your group as a whole by making it a smooth, fast, and enjoyable experience.

Now, that's not to say that single pulling is a cardinal sin inherently, however it's important to remember that you're 1 of 4 people in a group. If the group wants the dungeon to be fast, and you've decided that you don't want to do that, you are now at odds with the rest of the group. This puts you in an unfortunate situation where you'll likely be kicked or leave yourself to avoid harming the group. This, then, wastes not only their time but your own time. MMOs typically focus on the Multiplayer aspect, meaning working together with a group to accomplish a goal - this means that thinking "I want to play this way" can be harmful to your group and ruin their fun. It's best to be able to accommodate for your group so that everyone has a good time together, and this will take trial and error but eventually you'll get it down to a science. You're not always going to be in a group that wants a fast run (though generally you will @ 60 dungeons), but it's extremely helpful to learn to be able to do it when you're in that situation.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Adding to this, it's funny how much poo tanks and healers get for not doing certain things, but DPS are free to slack off and netflix through everything. Apparently, that's perfectly fine and how dare we call them out on it.

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DPS who forget they have AoEs also get called out from time to time, though I do agree they should get a bit more flak than healers/tanks, melee dps in special tend to forget they have AoEs, they have this weird obsession with finishing a fight with full TP, as if it wasn't going to regen between pulls.

But on the topic of tanks, there are exceptions to the expectation of big pulls, the pace of the dungeon should always be dependent on the party members, if the dps aren't using aoes or are undergeared there's no reason to pull everything to the next door, same if the tank is undergeared or new to the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

But on the topic of tanks, there are exceptions to the expectation of big pulls, the pace of the dungeon should always be dependent on the party members, if the dps aren't using aoes or are undergeared there's no reason to pull everything to the next door, same if the tank is undergeared or new to the dungeon.

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It's actually still worth it to pull big as long as the tank and healer are AOEing, as you're still gaining more DPS that way. You'll also take less damage over time naturally due to the DPS single targeting, whereas normally everything is getting relatively equally AOE'd down.

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Originally Posted by Kosme

Yeah I'm sure every role gets called out form time to time, but I think it's just easier to notice bad performance from a tank since they're the one kind of setting the pace, usually.

As someone who plays DPS almost exclusively I find it harder to judge the contributions of the tank or healer in my party while I'm busy beating everything up. Sure there are ways to tell how other players are performing regardless of role, but if the tank or healer messes something up then it tends to have an immediate and obvious effect on the run. Bad DPS? Things die more slowly, which you may not notice right away.

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You notice bad dps right away because of buff and skill timers. Decent dps will kill things before stuff like Shadow Flare wears off (30 seconds). Good dps will kill things before I can Bane (~9 seconds if I'm hard casting SF beforehand). If I'm casting a second SF on the very first pull it's already obvious that it's going to be a slow run.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

healer...why would it bother you that you can't dps? if you're so concerned about it...go dps job? then you def don't need to worry about healing anyone, or babysit the tank.
the most annoying thing about going, is when tank doesn't take any damage, and dps is slow, and i need to dps -.- i want massive pulls, so i can actually do my assigned job, leave the dps to the jobs that are actually good at it, unlike shitty healer jobs
"then I can go all out on dps with no worries" that's like saying you're going to melt butter in the fridge...

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As a healer i love the challenge of keeping a tank alive and putting out as much damage as i can. Even in full pull expert roulette if I'm " only" healing, there is no challenge. Divine seal, regen, medica 2 /sit. How is that fun or a challenge? Why not spam holy while you wait for the tank to need a tetra cure 2? and a good healer can out dps most df dps even though that's"what they're good at"

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

i don't do mass pull for one because i miss detail with my adhd. two i away seem mass pull tanking as a tanking style that you don't know if things can gone wrong at. if you pull entire amount a mobs and you wipe group then you stick small pulleds. slow and stead win the dungeon.

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Yo Homie, you do realize your CDs are much more efficient when used in concert with a mass pull right? a 30% mitigation from 2 adds is terrible value vs using that same CD on 15 mobs. Also, AoEs are more efficient DPS wise. If you will not mass pull then the DPS will do it for you.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Yo Homie, you do realize your CDs are much more efficient when used in concert with a mass pull right? a 30% mitigation from 2 adds is terrible value vs using that same CD on 15 mobs. Also, AoEs are more efficient DPS wise. If you will not mass pull then the DPS will do it for you.

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Do that with the wrong tank and they'll be on the ground. Inflate your parser stats on someone else's time.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Do that with the wrong tank and they'll be on the ground. Inflate your parser stats on someone else's time.

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Optimising your rotation is beneficial to yourself and the community's skill level. Being ignorant or straight denying how to improve is just a negative deficit, resulting in a continual of dumbed down kid proof content from the developers.

Im inbetween on this. When I was tank main I would pull a few packs at a time if everyone was cool with it. When i play on my BLM, its fun to AoE stuff down. Now that I mostly play healers, It can be dreadful sometimes and extremely unfun if the tank pulls too much leaving me to just spam heals (especially if theyre undergeared and do it because someone told them to/saw it in a video) when I have more I can do in my kit. I like to do other stuff besides spam one button.

I think pulling a few manageable packs is fine but not too much that leaves health dropping too rapidly. I have been in dungeons before though that were just as fast as a mass pull when the tank was only doing one pack at a time. /shrug

P.S. if you're going to mass pull several packs, USE A COOLDOWN PLS.

Not sure if this is even relevant to the current conversation (i skipped skimming through the possible derailment a couple pages in), but I have a story about this.

A few weeks back, I got into a level 60 roulette as a DRK. Got into arboretum....great, just GREAT. the only dungeon with a DPS check as a trash pull. Ugh...

Anyway, the 2 DPS were ninja and black mage. Ok, black mage is in assorted 250+ stuff (crafted and A-Normal trade ins right after the patch drop). So I assume this is their main and they have some proficiency. Ninja, however, is a first time and have the old Eso gear. At the time I secondary'd Ninja, so I hoped they understand they have SOME AoE damage to help out with every pull. But ultimately, they could be the best ninja to ever grace the game, and they wouldn't have been much a dent. 12 bless their heart though.

Well, I do the first big pull no problem. I'm comfortable with mass pulls. I even joke to my healers about how twitchy I get when I only pull 3 mobs. Anyway, I digress. The pulls takes alot longer than I'd like. Alot slower than is normal. that first pull took ~2-3 minutes. How do I know this? I got to use 2, TWO sole survivors in that pull. Ridiculously low damage. Ok I have an idea what kind of DPS we have now. only 1 more pack before the first boss those like 5 or 6 fat....bulby things with like 400 HP. They died.

No, the horror truly starts on the 1st boss. I'm not going to write out every little thing that pained my heart, so I'll summarize it in a way most of you can understand;
5 turn cycles. Not a single Thunder DoT. No Slashing debuff. No mutilate/shadowfang.

I started piecing things together at this moment. The DPS was low! It was then that I did the unthinkable. It was then I committed heresy. A crime so vile as to get me removed from my tanking position for all eternity...

I only pulled one group at a time!

I know, I know. Please put away those torches, I have atoned for my sins. I have served for my crimes! But the damage was done! After the first pull and the boss, I was hyper-aware of my groups shortcomings and so I did another heinous act: I started watching the BLM's cast bars! I know! It was wrong of me to invade their privacy!
However, through this breach of personal information, I discovered an ice mage, and no AoE! (I know their AoE isn't all that amazing on 3 targets, but to not use ANY AoE? That can't be right...)

And then we were there. the onset of the honey run. I remembered the pain up until this moment. I KNEW without a doubt that, we were not going to break that wall. If I were to do such a pull, we would all die. We WOULD all die, and I was convinced that, even weakened from the first attempt, the wall would resist a second push. to prevent 2 wipes, I once again commited heresy and pulled only to each wall and focused on the trash mobs.

It was then my heresy was discovered. "Pull more already! Why arent we doing the full pulls here!?" The Black Mage knew! THEY KNEW! I had to respond. They would not like my response though... "We don't have the DPS for the full pull here. AoE has been lacking and the boss lived too long." After that moment, the BLM would groan and gripe, but they started to actually pick it up! They were doing proper-loooking BLM shenanigans! I ACTUALLY SAW A THUNDER DoT!

However, it did not stop them from being rather passive-aggressive, but overall no drama came of it.


SO! in response to this whole "tanks needing to always mass pull without exception" scenario...
Mass pulls are not always on the tank to do. I will always start with a mass-pull, but its on the DPS to contribute. I will revoke the "privilege" of a "faster" run only if you actually bother to help me with that. I don't need a parser to know a BLM is "bad" when I see blizzard 3 in a trash pack of 10+ mobs at 50%+ HP. I don't need a parser to see that I have cooldowns up far sooner than I should.

I will adjust to YOUR speed. Give me a reason WHY I should continue to mass pull before you start verbally assaulting me. I made my choice based on YOUR performance.
This sort of scenario is extremely common in DF and is why I will NEVER force a tank to "pull more already".

Either that or it's patch day and I dont know where the gates are, so I'm going to test the waters.

He/She already gave you a reason as to why they prefre not to do it.
Why does this matter to you all so much? o.o

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Originally Posted by Yeol

He/She already gave you a reason as to why they prefre not to do it.
Why does this matter to you all so much? o.o

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It's a team based game. Them preferring to go slow means that they could end up with other people who don't want to go slow (which is most people), thus resulting in them getting kicked or agitating everyone. Surely they'd prefer to be welcome in all teams over just the ones that go the slowest. Do people forget that XIV is an MMO? Has DF really made everyone think that everyone's just NPCs?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Has DF really made everyone think that everyone's just NPCs?

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Considering how some people treat others, I wouldn't be surprised. Probably think everyone is predictable like an NPC then throw a fit when it's not.

I always do one baby pull to test the group dps. If they pass then mass pulls, if not I will continue to baby feed them.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Unfortunately, with how powerful everyone is in lv 50/60 dungeons, if you're not mass pulling you're purposely wasting time.

A healer would sooner pull themselves and stack heals on themselves than deal with a short pulling tank. It's simply the nature of this game in the layer dungeons, enjoy short pulls in the levels dungeons though.

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See what I find funny is you go through the whole class quests etc with bigger pulls and then they enter the dungeon and pick 2 or 3.

Yes if learning the class take it slow and steady, but aim to better yourself and keep adding a few extra each run. I am sort of the opposite, I over pull on first time tanking a dungeon and then apologise and slightly decrease on next pull and succeed :P

Although, I will check and adjust my size of pull depending on which classes/level(due to some having weaker AOE's at certain levels) I have in the party.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It's a team based game. Them preferring to go slow means that they could end up with other people who don't want to go slow (which is most people), thus resulting in them getting kicked or agitating everyone. Surely they'd prefer to be welcome in all teams over just the ones that go the slowest. Do people forget that XIV is an MMO? Has DF really made everyone think that everyone's just NPCs?

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They did not say that they prefer small pulls. They have to do it because they suffer from ADHD and is afraid of things going wrong if they do larger pulls. He is being considerate.

It is the same case with color blind people. That would be me.
You would hate me if I enter a training party for Extreme/Savage with you. I cannot see some AoEs, differentiate between some buffs/debuffs and some visual mechanics make it hard for me to see. Which is why I don't join PF training parties. I prefer to learn with my static who are aware of my condition. It takes time but in the end I can do it. Then I am confident enough to farm it with everyone else in PF/RF.

I expected people to give some advise to OP rather than telling him to stop playing tank. Maybe if he gave it a couple of tries with FC or friends he could manage to do it.

1. Casual glance at party hp, especially healer's and dps types. If HP is lower than is "normal", small pulls, otherwise big pulls.
2. If on borderline, defer to healer for decision.
3. If both dps are single target focused, small pulls but join in the dps fun. Melting small pulls fast can be just as fast.

I have seen BLMs who can't dps for nuts and I have seen DRGs who aoe like champs.
If in doubt, just pop a question in party. If no one answers, then its not your problem any more.

I am okay with small pulls, as long as the tank is moving quickly between pulls.

If I am in "expert" roulette with a tank who is stopping and waiting between pulls or boss fights, I will use Shadewalker on the tank and pull myself.

I was in Gubal Library Hard with a tank who would stop for between 15-30 seconds between each pull and look at each party member. And he would recast Protect and Stoneskin on everyone (Paladin tank)
Never figured out why.

After the first boss I got tired of it and used Shadewalker every time it was available to pull things.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

. My issue is that it converts 12 minutes of a fun activity into 22 minutes of a not-fun activity. It's less about the time wasted, and more about the conversion or loss of fun. It's not fun for me to have to fumble with aetherflow, because the timing doesn't work properly on it for 1-group pulls. It's not fun for me to move slowly, when I know we could easily be moving faster. It's not about 10 wasted minutes, it's about 12 minutes of fun stolen.

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Could end the thread with this honestly. It's not about time being wasted. Going at a snail's pace and not being able to use the full extent of your jobs power is not fun.

Hmm so according to this thread and its posts, All tanks have a invisible gun to their head and the words "pull more" always whisper to them. Like if the tank doesn't want to pull more let him/her do so. Why are you forcing them to pull more if they don't like it.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Do that with the wrong tank and they'll be on the ground. Inflate your parser stats on someone else's time.

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.....What does a DPS wanting to have more fun and get things faster using Flare or Deathflare on 6 enemies instead of 2 have to do with parser inflating?

Please dont generalize like that, if I ever pulled extra mobs it's because I know we can handle it and sometimes the tank just needs the extra push.

I see tank pulling small, I leave.

Even if the norm is what is formerly known as a speed run, it is still a speed run to someone new to large mob pulls, and completing dungeons in 15 minutes or less. I've also noticed a significant change of pace from running story mode dungeons, opposed to optional dungeons. Players are observantly much more patient in the former.

Either way, I go at the tank's pace. I totally get how we get to use our full toolkit with large pulls, and how much more fun this is. But sometimes the slower pace is welcome, especially in dungeons that I enjoy the battles, scenery, and the music.

I have ADHD as well and am slower learning new things because of it. I also mained tank up till level 50. I think large pulls, for inexperienced tank or healer, can be tricky or even overwhelming. As you gain experience you may find, as I have, that not only are speed runs something you can manage, but are a lot of fun as well. If party members pull everything and you wipe, usually they will go slow from then on. If not, explain that you don't want to speed run.

If the tank is responsible and borderline REQUIRED to do mass pulls...

...then why are tanks responsible for the SPEED at which the pull is completed?




I'm being serious here. I've seen posts recently that people vote kick or will drop a group based on if the tank is a PLD or not. I want answers. So I'll ask it again.

Why are tanks responsible for the SPEED at which a mass pull is completed?

I'm a tank. My job is to hold emnity, get hit in the face, and retaliate as hard as I can. MY job, ESPECIALLY AS A PLD, is NOT to do more AoE damage than a BLM. It is NOT my job to pull a dungeon, single-handedly kill them all, and let YOU walk out with the rewards.

The only reasoning I've read from this, or can gather for myself, is that small pulls only really have a significantly negative impact on Good players playing properly. This might shock and appall you all, being forum-goers and all, but duty finder is NOT filled with players like you or I.
Unfortunately, I can mass pull all I want in a dungeon, but if my BLM doesn't cast fire 2? If my SMN forgets what a dreadwyrm is?

This mentality and DPS under performing has actually FORCED me ask, in Gubal HM, if the healer or DPS can even HANDLE the full frog pull. Because guess what? It's always my fault.
"You should have pulled more."
"Why the **** did you pull them all!?"
Yes, it's some form of that, nearly every time I get Gubal HM. People have been getting much more vocal lately when they don't get their way.


Sorry, but with my own personal experiences in DF, I cannot fault a tank for ONLY pulling small. I have a WHOLE other checklist to take THEIR comm away from them.




EDIT/Clarification: I'm feeling a bit ranty. Dunno why. I think I lost track of my original idea halfway through. Just trying to play devil's advocate.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I'm sorry that it is frustrating for you to deal with mass pulls with your ADHD. I also find it frustrating when tanks pull slowly with my powerful AoE, it also screws up the timing of aetherflow and makes DPSing more difficult. It's also just a lot less fun.

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Another summoner pitching in: it really is faster for me to pull and get spam-healed and blow out my deathflare and survive than go through slow and painful pulls. This is mostly in 60 dungeons however.

Also keep in mind that noting such things (as to why you cannot pull much/as expected) can go a long way at the start.

If I'm in a dungeon as a DPS it's because I don't want to tank. So Tank, you do it however you want. I waived my say when I queued as a DPS.

When I am on a healer, if you know the mobs are going to be barfing out Ao-Ao-Ao-AoE's? Thank you for the small pulls because I'm probably going to be too busy running around like a retard to heal you.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Could end the thread with this honestly. It's not about time being wasted. Going at a snail's pace and not being able to use the full extent of your jobs power is not fun.

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Being stressed by a tank who runs around and pull mobs like there is no tomorrow is not fun either. I always get annoyed by tanks doing big pulls - that is just making things harder for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by JisKing98

Hmm so according to this thread and its posts, All tanks have a invisible gun to their head and the words "pull more" always whisper to them. Like if the tank doesn't want to pull more let him/her do so. Why are you forcing them to pull more if they don't like it.

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Same rights to DPS and healers then however. If a DPS doesn't want to deal more damage and doesn't like the rotations, then they should also be free to not do them. And why not let a scholar /follow and go AFK if the fairy is doing the job just fine? Maybe he doesn't feel like playing today and just wants to get the daily dungeon done, so we shouldn't force him to play as long as the job is getting done. Let them if they want to do that!

It's pretty simple. If you are fine with your own inefficiency slowing down the run by 5 minutes, then you also have to be fine with 20 minutes slower runs because everyone else is doing the same as you. If you are fine with a person ignoring mechanics in raids, you also have to be fine with everyone ignoring mechanics in raids. One standard for all. If you are, great! No problem, we can all go home and stop arguing because it's a matter of different standards then. If you are not fine with that however, you're a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Same rights to DPS and healers then however. If a DPS doesn't want to deal more damage and doesn't like the rotations, then they should also be free to not do them. And why not let a scholar /follow and go AFK if the fairy is doing the job just fine? Maybe he doesn't feel like playing today and just wants to get the daily dungeon done, so we shouldn't force him to play as long as the job is getting done. Let them if they want to do that!

It's pretty simple. If you are fine with your own inefficiency slowing down the run by 5 minutes, then you also have to be fine with 20 minutes slower runs because everyone else is doing the same as you. If you are fine with a person ignoring mechanics in raids, you also have to be fine with everyone ignoring mechanics in raids. One standard for all. If you are, great! No problem, we can all go home and stop arguing because it's a matter of different standards then. If you are not fine with that however, you're a hypocrite.

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There's a difference with playing in your comfort zone or going /follow AFK.
This is a game, not a second job where your life depends on performing in the top 10 percentile.
People are supposed to have fun playing their character.

Being afk with /follow as you suggest is another level of douchbaggery.

This post I think displays examples of Rule 1 of tanking and provides the mentality behind Rule 2 of tanking.

Rule 1: Always expect DPS to be inherently stupid.

Rule 2: Always tank like the healer's AFK.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

There's a difference with playing in your comfort zone or going /follow AFK.

Being afk with /follow as you suggest is another level of douchbaggery.

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What if they are most comfortable with going afk? It's just their playstyle, right? Can't blame them for having the most fun that way, right??

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

There's a difference with playing in your comfort zone or going /follow AFK.
This is a game, not a second job where your life depends on performing in the top 10 percentile.
People are supposed to have fun playing their character.

Being afk with /follow as you suggest is another level of douchbaggery.

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Had a mentor today who did not a single DPS skill as healer. Not surprised if they macro'd heal and used Eos to heal, was frigging appalling.

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Originally Posted by SilkaN

What if they are most comfortable with going afk? It's just their playstyle, right? Can't blame them for having the most fun that way, right??

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Nice try, but it's not a "playstyle".
Playstyle involves playing, which isn't the case when you're AFK.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Being stressed by a tank who runs around and pull mobs like there is no tomorrow is not fun either. I always get annoyed by tanks doing big pulls - that is just making things harder for no good reason.

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But there is a good reason. It's efficient, utilizes the power of your jobs, is quicker, is more exciting for all roles.

Pulling one enemy at a time is just boring, makes running dungeons a drag.
I'll put it like this. If I was in the mood to just troll some random group of people wanting to get through their dailies, I'd hop on a ILV 260 tanks and single pull enemies in Xelphatol.

Does that sound mean? Well that's exactly what single pulling is.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Nice try, but it's not a "playstyle".
Playstyle involves playing, which isn't the case when you're AFK.

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If you're getting healed and staying alive it's technically a playstyle. If the tank wants to play a certain way that's viable enough for him, I can play in a way that's viable enough for me. If you're not willing to out in effort with your role I won't either.

Beside, a Monk with physick crossclased could keep you up pulling single enemies at a time.

its party finder ppl, when you get in you can't really demand other players to follow the way you want to dealt the dungeon, the tank is how choose the number of mods he/she take like if a healer chose to use cleric or not, duty finder is for that, random ppl to clear dailys ergo random jobs with random players with diferent skill leves and state of humor, instead of sabotage the run bcs you dont like how x player do they job make a party finder or call some friends, thats why we have all of this, be water all.