Your map grid system is chafing my legs

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

You saying something does not in any way automatically make it true. Quit talking as though your opinion is fact and then perhaps people will be less harsh towards you on the matter.

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In this case, I am not stating an opinion, I am stating a fact.

Letter number leaves no room for ambiguity or confusion. They are not the same character set, thus, they are not confused.

You can reverse them, etc, and no matter what, the end result is the same. Whether I type (A,1) or (1,A) on the map you find A whether its on the X or Y axis doesnt matter. You just find the axis that corresponds to that. Then you find 1. One and done. No confusion. No ambiguity.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

The continued assumption that I don't know what the coordinates mean is tired. I clarified from the outset I know what they mean.

As another person earlier in this thread stated, its a matter of ambiguity for the 1% that don't know. Its a matter of clarity for the people that screw up and switch numbers in their head from time to time. Its a matter of ease for those of us that are too tired to think straight at times.

Letter-Number leaves no question about it.

number-number always leaves a margin of error.

That is the bottom line.

You can continue to "think" there is nothing ambiguous or unclear about it and thats fine for you, but it doesn't change the facts, i.e. there are issues.

chow

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As I said, it is a simple thing to learn, and once explained is easy to grasp. This is the first time that I have heard anyone complain about the map grid system in all the time I have been playing since closed beta. If you are really concerned about that supposed 1% that you say might have an issues with it, then are you assuming they are not intelligent enough to grasp the very basic concept of what the X,Y coordinates are?

I'd rather believe that all people can be taught a basic concept and help them, than assume they are stupid and change it for that supposed 1% you feel won't grasp it.

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

As I said, it is a simple thing to learn, and once explained is easy to grasp. This is the first time that I have heard anyone complain about the map grid system in all the time I have been playing since closed beta. If you are really concerned about that supposed 1% that you say might have an issues with it, then are you assuming they are not intelligent enough to grasp the very basic concept of what the X,Y coordinates are?

I'd rather believe that all people can be taught a basic concept and help them, than assume they are stupid and change it for that supposed 1% you feel won't grasp it.

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Then it sounds like you believe in bad design.

You should check out the tenants of 6 Sigma-That may shed some light on why it makes sense to design for the 1% that struggle, not the 99% that do not.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

Then it sounds like you believe in bad design.

You should check out the tenants of 6 Sigma-That may shed some light on why it makes sense to design for the 1% that struggle, not the 99% that do not.

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I don't believe in bad design, but I also don't believe in assuming that people are stupid and can't be taught. :)

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

I also don't believe in assuming that people are stupid and can't be taught. :)

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Why not? Appearently this statement is difining yourself on this particular topic.

You appear to be incapable of being taught. You refuse to learn that there is more cause for confusion with marginal error and mistake then with an alpha-numaric system. There is an incredible number of intelligent or educated people with dyslexia, or other issues that can cause confussion with one individual directin another to an X,Y coordinate on a map.

They could not know, or nor recall what they were taught previously and give it to you wrong.

They could have dyslexic tendancies.

They could of had a crappy teacher who skipped over it.

They could simply be confussed.

The could have learned it incorrectly and opposite by mistake, and have always used it incorrectly.

The list goes on and on and on. But just as with yourself. Attepting to educate others, is by no means a garuntee that it will soak on oe be learned. It is cause for such uncertainty, that in all my years in the military, the axis was always given with the number for clarification, just as with lartitude and longitude. The work the same way but they are anounced with the coordinates reguardless. Because if you need and enemy location bombed or shell that is in your region, if you want to assume the young new soldier/airman/seaman on the other end of the radio gets it right and has the enemy hit and not you. Thats your business, but its not very intelligent to assume or claim the other guy won't screw it up.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Why not? Appearently this statement is difining yourself on this particular topic.

You appear to be incapable of being taught. You refuse to learn that there is more cause for confusion with marginal error and mistake then with an alpha-numaric system. There is an incredible number of intelligent or educated people with dyslexia, or other issues that can cause confussion with one individual directin another to an X,Y coordinate on a map.

They could not know, or nor recall what they were taught previously and give it to you wrong.

They could have dyslexic tendancies.

They could of had a crappy teacher who skipped over it.

They could simply be confussed.

The could have learned it incorrectly and opposite by mistake, and have always used it incorrectly.

The list goes on and on and on. But just as with yourself. Attepting to educate others, is by no means a garuntee that it will soak on oe be learned. It is cause for such uncertainty, that in all my years in the military, the axis was always given with the number for clarification, just as with lartitude and longitude. The work the same way but they are anounced with the coordinates reguardless. Because if you need and enemy location bombed or shell that is in your region, if you want to assume the young new soldier/airman/seaman on the other end of the radio gets it right and has the enemy hit and not you. Thats your business, but its not very intelligent to assume or claim the other guy won't screw it up.

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Difining? I am assuming that you mean defining?

If so, if believing that people can be taught is a bad thing and you're trying to hold that against me, then that is fine. What I don't like is people assuming with no actual proof to their credit, that there is exactly 1% of people in this game that don't get the system therefore the whole thing must be changed. Since they are saying that, and just want it changed flat out for that supposed 1%, is also basically saying that they believe that this 1% is not intelligent enough to be taught how to read 2 numbers on a map properly.

I myself am a college instructor so I deal with teaching student's on an almost daily basis, and one thing I have learned is never to doubt them because that will only teach them to doubt themselves. Most people can be taught through the act of repetition, and seeing that I do use the map on a constant basis I believe that people can learn that if I said:

"Meet me at (24,34)" so I can help you."

That it won't take long for most people to remember that the first number does correlate to the top line of numbers running across the top of the map, and that the second number correlates to the ones running down the side of the map.

Yes there is always a margin for error in all things, and when dealing with issues in FFXIV, I think two numbers on a map are the least of our worries. Anyway, if every time one person didn't understand something we just up and changed it instead of trying to educate people, then we would constantly change everything in our lives.

No, attempting to educate others is by no means a guarantee that it will be soaked in. But on the other hand, if you don't try then it's even a higher chance that that person will screw up.

Anyway which is worse? Doubting people and not even trying to educate them or helping them and giving them a better chance at success. This whole game is a learning experience, and we were all once at a point where we didn't know how to do things within it, but we learned, and we taught others what we learned. It makes us all better players.

One thing I do teach my students is to always admit mistakes, don't assume that you do know everything. If you assume that you know everything, then no one will want to teach them. But if they can admit their faults it makes them an open book that is willing to accept knowledge and in the end it will make them a better more intelligent person.

All things in life were once new to us, even you were once new in the military... if people doubted in you would that have made you feel good? I'm sorry but your post seems very negative all around, and you seem to doubt in people.

But then again this is a forum, and text is deceiving. Our true feelings don't always come out in it, so I could be reading it wrong. I will always believe that people can be taught, and if that makes me a bad person, at least I'm a bad person who believes in my student's and doesn't doubt or give up on them. :)

At some point in life you need to stop relying on others to help you and learn to do things yourself. Self educate yourself, instead of crying for things to be simplified because you are either to stupid and/or lazy to learn. Go look things up and learn them. It's quite easy and honestly feels good when you learn new things. People will have trouble reading (L,#) just as much as they do (#,#) just look how many people got lost on XI. Never underestimate how stupid people can be. If you refuse to educate yourself and to learn a simple thing like reading a map? then that's your own fault not anyone else's. Stop being lazy.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Why not? Appearently this statement is difining yourself on this particular topic.

You appear to be incapable of being taught. You refuse to learn that there is more cause for confusion with marginal error and mistake then with an alpha-numaric system. There is an incredible number of intelligent or educated people with dyslexia, or other issues that can cause confussion with one individual directin another to an X,Y coordinate on a map.

They could not know, or nor recall what they were taught previously and give it to you wrong.

They could have dyslexic tendancies.

They could of had a crappy teacher who skipped over it.

They could simply be confussed.

The could have learned it incorrectly and opposite by mistake, and have always used it incorrectly.

The list goes on and on and on. But just as with yourself. Attepting to educate others, is by no means a garuntee that it will soak on oe be learned. It is cause for such uncertainty, that in all my years in the military, the axis was always given with the number for clarification, just as with lartitude and longitude. The work the same way but they are anounced with the coordinates reguardless. Because if you need and enemy location bombed or shell that is in your region, if you want to assume the young new soldier/airman/seaman on the other end of the radio gets it right and has the enemy hit and not you. Thats your business, but its not very intelligent to assume or claim the other guy won't screw it up.

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It sounds like you need to start a thread to let the Devs know that you want a GPS unit installed on chocobos. You should also put that on Twitter as they are addicted to Twitter when responding to inquiries about the game.

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Originally Posted by AdaraaKatsumi

It sounds like you need to start a thread to let the Devs know that you want a GPS unit installed on chocobos. You should also put that on Twitter as they are addicted to Twitter when responding to inquiries about the game.

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No need a Instant teleport to Coordinates because they can put the wrong coordinates in the GPS. That way if they type the wrong coordinates it's not a problem just type in the new ones and good to go.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

No need a Instant teleport to Coordinates because they can put the wrong coordinates in the GPS. That way if they type the wrong coordinates it's not a problem just type in the new ones and good to go.

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XD

Well it would defiantly make things easy...

Even if everyone stating that (x,y) as numbers is just logic and understandable by the vast majority, you still have a point that it would be even easier to understand.

However, your thread title gives zero credibility to your suggestion.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

There is no reason to just not use a letter/number grid design. It takes any errors, miss education, failed 5th grade math memory, or otherwise completely out of the equation.

In that regard, it is anti-logic.

You're just being a prick to be a prick.

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No, logic is going with what has been the mathematical standard for centuries now. Don't like it? Can't handle it? Tough. There is nothing worse than people incapable of understanding the most basics in mathematics.

hmm yea more i read this more i see humanity is going backwards instead of forward. yay for simplicity to the point of idioticly. yay for humans getting lazy to even learn the meaning of life. yay yay yay.... . . . ....................... .

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Originally Posted by Dragon

No, logic is going with what has been the mathematical standard for centuries now. Don't like it? Can't handle it? Tough. There is nothing worse than people incapable of understanding the most basics in mathematics.

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You do realize cartographers and geologists use numbers and letters, or numbers and numbers, or letters and letters?

The decision comes down to the mapmaker, and in this instance SE has decided numbers, I think its fairly final at this point.

A: "Alrite, meet me at 23,31 in Thanalan!"

B: "uh... whazzat?"

A: "Those are coordinates. Just follow the map =)"

B: "Coordinates? You mean that mathematic thing I've never got in my life because I've never finished high-school?"

A: "Wow... I didn't know that, sorry."

A: "Map Coordinates in mathematic are described by an X and an Y. X being the horizontal and Y being the vertical, and they're always represented as (X,Y)"

B: "I see. What about people tells me (Y,X)?"

A: "In that case just try to go in that place. If it doesn't describe where to go and in fact the place is the switch from those coordinates, then just teach them what I told you before =)"

B: "Seems reasonable :)"

A: "Alrite, let's get to adventure! 23,31 in Thanalan."


Yeah. It looks so hard and useless to teach people things that might be useful even in real life.

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

What I don't like is people assuming with no actual proof to their credit, that there is exactly 1% of people in this game that don't get the system therefore the whole thing must be changed. Since they are saying that, and just want it changed flat out for that supposed 1%, is also basically saying that they believe that this 1% is not intelligent enough to be taught how to read 2 numbers on a map properly.

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Just want to clarify that the 1% statement came from my own personal experiences, and I gave sufficient examples of those experiences in that post. It should not be taken as a statistical analysis on the whole player base by any means. If you are interested in statistics, look up all the individuals who've edited on Eorzeapedia on coordinates for each articles.

What Scherwiz said boils it down. It's a map.

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Originally Posted by Scherwiz

You do realize cartographers and geologists use numbers and letters, or numbers and numbers, or letters and letters?

The decision comes down to the mapmaker, and in this instance SE has decided numbers, I think its fairly final at this point.

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Reading a manual, explaining, or fiddling around with an aspect in a game should be something that is enjoyable, not cumbersome. So, when is it a virtue to learn before it becomes a flaw in design?

Like I said in my previous post. "...people don't understand that this is an ambiguity issue. Not language issue, nor an education issue, nor is it an intuitive issue." It's not doubting people's capability to interpret a map, nor doubting that people don't have the ability to clarify the ambiguity on a case by case scenario. People can learn after fiddling with it. That's what we did on day one of the game.

The coordinates ambiguity at the worst was when there used to be no <pos>, nor markings on the map of your coordinates. The only place they listed how coordinates standards were on the lodestone. In fact, they avoided giving coordinates even on the lodestone. They even had a manual to explain how to read the map coordinates.

But even with the lodestone manual, it was up to the individual's preference in either (Y,X) or (X,Y) coordinates. If you want proof of how old this coordinate ambiguity problem existed check Eorzeapedia edit histories, they've had conflicts with listing between (X,Y) and (Y,X) coordinates when starting out the wiki.

Eorzeapedia discussion on how to set standards for coordinates (September 2010)

And simply all this happened because they had two axes with the same incremental values, numerical. It's like allowing someone to write in "t" and "f" on a true and false exam. You know it's not going to end well.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

It is standard in any grid. It isn't anti-logic for anyone who made it past 5th grade mathematics.

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I never past 5th grade math.

Heres a way easyer fix...

Make the first Number larger and coloured. That way people alwas know which one comes first.

(52red 10white)

Letters will probally work like they are in FFXI and I see them redoing the maps anyway when ver.2 is coming. They got alot of areas to redo so yeah these changes will come.

Eitherway, I don't know any study or any company, people, whatever, that uses (Y,X) instead of (X,Y). Even resolutions are like this. 1920x1080, Width x Height, X x Y.
But in these forums there should be. It seems like this place can even surprise myself =)

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Originally Posted by Venat

I never past 5th grade math.

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I'm literally curious, how do you not pass 5th grade? Isn't that illegal in almost every country?

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Eitherway, I don't know any study or any company, people, whatever, that uses (Y,X) instead of (X,Y). Even resolutions are like this. 1920x1080, Width x Height, X x Y.
But in these forums there should be. It seems like this place can even surprise myself =)

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Posted already here several publications of actual maps that list their locations as (Y,X).

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Originally Posted by lackofwords

Posted already here several publications of actual maps that list their locations as (Y,X).

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Thanks for redirecting =)
Seriously though, you Americans have some silly map coordination =D (/jk, I say that because I've never seen something like that, only on battleship games tho)

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Thanks for redirecting =)
Seriously though, you Americans have some silly map coordination =D (/jk, I say that because I've never seen something like that, only on battleship games tho)

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You mean Canadians.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

I must say,

I am really surprised at how many people defend this grid schema used on the maps.

Location A-2 is very clear
Location 2-3 is not

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Scenario 1: A Across, 2 Down
Scenario 2: 2 Across, 3 Down

It's simple. They're both equally clear, easy to understand, read and follow. You are just being obstinate at this point.

The difference is, using letters introduces a few bumps that using numbers wouldn't. Those bumps have already been pointed out in this thread.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

I used X/Y verbiage in my original thread, but at no point that I am aware of does SE actually allude to this in the game. They make the assumption that you know.

I do know. I have always known. Knowing was never the point. There are people out there that don't know. There are people out there that are dyslexic. There are people out there that find this challenging.

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If you get it and understanding isn't the problem, then what's your issue again?

Again, many are taught quite early in age that coordinate systems always work on an X,Y basis.

For those who don't know, or are familiar with the reverse, they can figure it out or be told by someone. Then they will know and a world-destroying catastrophe will be averted.

As for those who don't want to ask or look it up for whatever reason, how many times do you think they'll try going to the wrong location, seeing that the location they need is actually somewhere else on the map, before they figure it out?

As for the "people are dyslexic"... Really? You're invoking people with an impediment to push your own personal agenda? That's pretty freaking lame.

"There are people out there who find this challenging". Challenging? No. A tad bit confusing at first? Perhaps. That is until, oh I don't know, someone takes 5 seconds to explain it to them ("3, 2 is 3 across 2 down", "the first number is always horizontal", etc), or they figure it out through deductive reasoning, or looking it up. "Well, the location is 5, 9, and I see the location marked on the map... so obviously, it's 5 across, 9 down. The first number is across. Got it."

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

Letter - Number takes any guess work out of it, and doesn't require prior knowledge of anything.

I think you all have a big hard on for a sub-standard grid schema. I still have not seen anyone provide a reason why using number - number is superior.

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No. We all simply accept it as a standard grid system used almost everywhere, and so seeing two numbers doesn't "confuse us", because we know the first number is across, the second number is down. And, again, if you aren't sure, then it's merely a matter of asking or looking it up to see that, in FFXIV, Across is first, Down is second.

There is no "guess work", nor is "requiring prior knowledge" a real issue. If someone isn't sure how the map system works, they can ask or otherwise figure it out, quite easily for themselves. You make it sound like standard map coordinate systems are some esoteric and alien concept only understood by few. It isn't. Most people understand it just fine and don't have these "issues" you keep asserting.

People have given you perfectly good reasons why the current system is fine, you are choosing to ignore them because they don't fit your agenda.

1) It's a standard and very common coordinate system (X across, Y down) used everywhere, in many scenarios.
2) Numbers are universal. The English Alphabet isn't.
3) The maps in FFXIV will be too large, requiring the doubling of letters instead of just picking the next number in line.
4) It's a very simple concept to grasp, taking literally less than a minute to learn. First number across, second number down. Simple.

"Across, then Down". That's it. That's all anyone needs to understand. Once they get that, SE could be using pictures of food as map indicators and it would be just as simple. "Mithkabob across, Cinnamon Cookie down".

I wonder if you realize just how obvious - and ridiculous - it is to see you stretching this out to make it sound like some kind of huge issue. In the time you've spent typing up complaints about "how it's too confusing for some people", 1000 people could have been informed of it and had any "confusion" eliminated.

You're making a huge deal over a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

You're making a huge deal over a non-issue.

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You talk like a politician considering the numerous times it is documented within this thread how the map coordinate system has been an issue.

Can we get a community rep to provide some ENGLISH feedback on this from the developers, not some google translated Japanese.

This issue needs to be re-escalated to the developers and re-reviewed.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

"There are people out there who find this challenging". Challenging? No. A tad bit confusing at first? Perhaps. That is until, oh I don't know, someone takes 5 seconds to explain it to them ("3, 2 is 3 across 2 down", "the first number is always horizontal", etc), or they figure it out through deductive reasoning, or looking it up. "Well, the location is 5, 9, and I see the location marked on the map... so obviously, it's 5 across, 9 down. The first number is across. Got it."

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Almost seems like the simplest solution is to put a key on all the maps. Something along the lines of...

(x, y)
------> x
|
|
|
\/
y

Um...simple math you learn in elementary school. (X, Y) coordinate system.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

You talk like a politician considering the numerous times it is documented within this thread how the map coordinate system has been an issue.

Can we get a community rep to provide some ENGLISH feedback on this from the developers, not some google translated Japanese.

This issue needs to be re-escalated to the developers and re-reviewed.

Thanks.

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There's already a fix underway dude. Yoshi stated himself that he agreed that the map positioning needs to be clarified. They're going to clearly label the x/y plane and make it so that when positions are given it will be labeled (X:___, Y:___) so that "stupid, uneducated, lazy" people like us will know what exactly someone is saying when coordinates are given. It's not as braindead understandable as XI's is, but it's still to me a sufficient enough fix. Continuing to push the issue is only going to make this thread unnecessarily longer IMO - and I seriously doubt that they're going to implement a "second phase" where they completely revamp the coordinates system just for people like you.

Understand that I am on your side on this issue, but I think we need to let this issue rest - I think Yoshi-P's idea to fix the ambiguity is good enough for us "stupid" players who obviously failed 5th grade math.