Yoshi-P on Character Growth

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

what's to argue? the numbers are not subs, and the numbers are not accurate you can say oh but they are 10% wrong or 20% wrong but that shows that you don't even know if the number are true so why would i believe something you don't even know?

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The point to argue is that the numbers are not fake. Fake implies they are made up, but they are not made up. They're based off real achievements obtained by characters. IIRC the achievement is the one you obtain at level 15 (used level 15 to reduce RMT inflation); however, I am not 100% sure on that. We know that the major factor which generates error is that it is based off CHARACTERs and not PLAYERs. That means if 1 player has an alternate, they are counted twice. I know one person who has 6 alternates, for example. He would be counted 7 times on the census. That said, most people, I believe, do not have alternates - so we can safely say the estimate is close. The second largest issue is that bots will be added to the mix. Outside of those 2 glaring issues, it is quite accurate based off data-mining what is actually happening in the game.

I am not sure where you are getting 10% and 20% error from, as that implies this was done with statistical analysis and the margin of error is X %. That doesn't really work in this methodology.

In terms of why would you believe something I don't know? Well, I do know that the number is slightly less than the reported value - feel free to believe it as you will.

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Originally Posted by Lan_Mantear

You know, I may be the minority, but I could care less if FFXIV ceased to exist today or 10 years from now. That fact is, I am currently enjoying it now. If that ever changes, I will leave it behind with fond memories like all the other games I've played before it. For now though, I will continue to enjoy it and not worry too much about what will happen in the future.

That being said, I played and loved FFXI. I still get nostalgic about it, but my lifestyle now could not support that type of time sink. If FFXIV were to become that type of time sink. I would be forced to stop playing. It seems to me that FFXIV was designed with players like me in mind. Which is awesome for me, and must suck for the rest of you. You have my sympathies. :( Not really.

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XIV isn't exactly designed for me in some regards, but that's just a reality that comes from all facets of life. Some (i.e. many) folks have yet to realize that not everything that is done to something they engage themselves in is specifically for them. They also need to realize that their presence, even if by the hundreds that feel similarly and may be present on forums or other social outlets, doesn't mean a damn thing lol. Unless we have direct ties to the creative process or employment, we are simply numbers on an individual basis.

Side note though on XI: You could probably do a ton on it now if that nostalgia ever hits you hard. It's very solo friendly for like... 90% or more of the game thanks to the Trust system. Also, Home Points are teleports now, and almost every zone has at least one lol.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The point to argue is that the numbers are not fake. Fake implies they are made up, but they are not made up.

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this explains my point perfectly

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Originally Posted by Centershock

They even go to explain what they thought was an "active character."

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you may data mine but you filter out other players you can not say if the number is the real number but one *you* accept as the correct answer which it is not. it does not have every player just who you think qualify so using that data as facts is wrong. as you are leaving out players and only SE has the real numbers.

so once again no it's not close as you have no proof you say you filtered but you don't know how many people you missed and just say no its a small number which you do not know is true and just say so.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Well, I do know that the number is slightly less than the reported value - feel free to believe it as you will.

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you do not know this.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

this explains my point perfectly

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In which, you are incorrect and have provided zero reasoning or evidence to suggest otherwise. I am not sure why you are stubbornly refusing to understand where the numbers are coming from, but I guess this is going no where. I was simply trying to inform you on the process, and had no hidden agenda.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

In which, you are incorrect and have provided zero reasoning or evidence to suggest otherwise. I am not sure why you are stubbornly refusing to understand where the numbers are coming from, but I guess this is going no where. I was simply trying to inform you on the process, and had no hidden agenda.

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refusing? i understand perfectly its statistic based on someones personal opinion of active or inactive.

you say *this achievement proves how many people actively plays* but it does not.

once again i will say it *only se can say how many people logged in today 100%* the rest is all filters based on what someone thinks is active or not.

If you want to go by SE numbers theres over 5 million players :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Vantol

SE once released census where it was stated that there are 2'700'000 players in the game currently. Then this number was investigated by players and the real number was around 700k-800k. After this SE stopped releasing censuses. So any datamined census will be more accurate than SE one

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the only numbers se ever gave was way back saying they have 500k daily active players. the 2.7mil 3mil 5mil 6mil is a different number than active.

it will never be more accurate than se (other than the fact people make them) if you want to believe the info 100% that is your call but it holds no real weight.

Oh really? we know for a fact they thought it was trash?

By that definition, how many players started XI, and stopped playing because they thought it was trash?

Maybe they realized it wasn't the game for them, financial issues, personal issues. Many things can get people to stop playing an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Genaxx

If you want to go by SE numbers theres over 5 million players :rolleyes:

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And Blizzard has said over 100 million have played WoW, but now they have less than 5 million subs. Does that mean 95 million people thought WoW was trash?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Does that mean 95 million people thought WoW was trash?

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Yes, it does? If reason is not death or money shortage, why would you stop doing something that brings you fun?

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Originally Posted by Vantol

Yes, it does? If reason is not death or money shortage, why would you stop doing something that brings you fun?

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Those are a bit hyperbolic. You can stop doing something without considering it "trash".

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And Blizzard has said over 100 million have played WoW, but now they have less than 5 million subs. Does that mean 95 million people thought WoW was trash?

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Does blizzard still claim to have to have over 100 million players? All im saying is SE say they have over 6 million players.

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Originally Posted by Genaxx

Does blizzard still claim to have to have over 100 million players? All im saying is SE say they have over 5 million players.

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No, SE says over 5 million have PLAYED. They have never said they have 5 million active players.

Well at least I know the direction of the game more clear seem I have another mmo to look for and this be a secondary to come back to after several months/expansion.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No, SE says over 5 million have PLAYED. They have never said they have 5 million active players.

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I did not say active did I?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

It felt like he was dodging the question and used exaggerated examples to prove his stance.

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Yeah, he's used to it. I know 2 other instances where he did the same, and I'm sure there are a lot more in other interviews.

Also, he's imagining there is a fundamental difference between the never-ending grind by XP in others RPG, and the never-ending grind by equipment in FFXIV.

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To summarize the interview : making RPG is hard.
And he's not wrong, but his solution is to remove everything that make it hard, and it's actually what make them interesting. The result is a forgery with only some appearance of RPG. Plus, the "rpg like" features that remains aren't the most interesting ones (xp, level).

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Originally Posted by Vantol

Yes, it does? If reason is not death or money shortage, why would you stop doing something that brings you fun?

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RL obligations? Other games came out? People not playing the game anymore doesn't mean they only quit out of being sick of the game. As fun as this game is, I do like to play other stuff or do other things. It's how you avoid burn out!

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Originally Posted by TheJarvisMan

Yoshi P's choice to play it safe in terms of content for this game is what makes it a consistently pretty good MMORPG. It also is what keeps it from becoming the best and most innovative game in the genre.

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I just came back to the game, after I quit right before 2.1 patch (leviathan). I qued up mid day as WAR for leviathan. In total I had 1 hour and half ish wait, some guys didnt click then I had to wait even more. There is seriously something wrong when a player who comes back and kinda expect the game doesn't allow people like me to get things done way slower than it should be. I thought MMO was supose to keep the players in the game not run away every 2 months or 1? I'm only saying this from my perspective and the players? Rarely see people, even in Limsa, where it usually have a big crowd. I was told peopel leave every 1-2 month after HW came out and before I came back to the game I read there is a lot of active players? Aren't data centers connected to the server, so the one I'm in are connected to at least 3-4 more servers?

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Originally Posted by Genaxx

I did not say active did I?

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Then what was the point of bringing it up if there is nothing wrong with it being said? Over 5 million players is an accurate statement they can make.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

the end is the best part it shows he really is thinking of everyone even though he won't make something super hard content the main attraction of the game he said he wants to do something like that to give those players something they will like too.

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Cause let's be real, at the end of the day, it's not really content to spend hours hoping RNG will give you a .01 to your combat skill, it's just a time sink. I'm glad stuff like that isn't put into the game.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Then what was the point of bringing it up if there is nothing wrong with it being said? Over 5 million players is an accurate statement they can make.

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Since there was a discussion on how many players and no one mentioned it.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Cause let's be real, at the end of the day, it's not really content to spend hours hoping RNG will give you a .01 to your combat skill, it's just a time sink. I'm glad stuff like that isn't put into the game.

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Have to agree on that. Kinda glad it's not here. Skill up systems, at least for combat, are a niche function. I kind of enjoy skill up systems, but only to reasonable extents. WoW's old one that lasted until... mid TBC(?), which almost guaranteed skill ups per swing, somehow felt more like a timesink than XI's low skill up rate system. I guess it's that whole reward for effort thing and XI was originally designed for those gluttons for punishment (I'm definitely a masochist on that matter lol). Compared to the mentioned one in WoW, which was pretty much handed out to you by comparison.

Interesting how something as mundane as skill ups can feel so rewarding, which also extends to skilling up crafts in XI versus XIV. Not even gonna consider WoWs craft skill up system on that one. There were definitely points in time where I hated it though lol. "Thank ****ing gaud I capped, can GTFO now" was pretty common among people... which sounds an awful lot like pretty much anything to do with a quantifiable system (as well as RNG).

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

Rarely see people, even in Limsa, where it usually have a big crowd. I was told peopel leave every 1-2 month after HW came out and before I came back to the game I read there is a lot of active players?

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Most people are in the expansion hubs of Ishgard and Idyllshire.

You just came back at a very strange time right before a major patch. Normally, Leviathan shouldn't take that long with Trial Roulette. But since this is literally the very trail end of the content patch, not as many people are bothering with tomes these days.

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

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You came back before next patch, which is the worst time to come back.
From what I see (Linkshells, FCs, Party Finder, Queue times) half of the people just took a break before 3.4.
That's how FFXIV works, some patches last for 1 month, some for 2, for the rest of the time you either PvP, hunt glamours, craft or play other games.

I don't get why ppl should be angry since yoshida said the truth, old gen MMOs don't cut it at all. I mean look no further than wildstar you have the proof.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

You came back before next patch, which is the worst time to come back.
From what I see (Linkshells, FCs, Party Finder, Queue times) half of the people just took a break before 3.4.
That's how FFXIV works, some patches last for 1 month, some for 2, for the rest of the time you either PvP, hunt glamours, craft or play other games.

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I wont lie, back when I played back then, I could see from long miles how the patch cycle would work. Now, I'm not complaining we get 3 months cycle, but it's the fact it's the same structure.

To everyone else who replied, I get that people can be in the 1 year old zones, but then again linkshells/fc is barely alive. Is this really a thing? So it was actually a bad thing to come back?

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

I wont lie, back when I played back then, I could see from long miles how the patch cycle would work. Now, I'm not complaining we get 3 months cycle, but it's the fact it's the same structure.

To everyone else who replied, I get that people can be in the 1 year old zones, but then again linkshells/fc is barely alive. Is this really a thing? So it was actually a bad thing to come back?

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Is it the same ls/fc? cuz those people may have moved on. look for new ones.

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

I wont lie, back when I played back then, I could see from long miles how the patch cycle would work. Now, I'm not complaining we get 3 months cycle, but it's the fact it's the same structure.

To everyone else who replied, I get that people can be in the 1 year old zones, but then again linkshells/fc is barely alive. Is this really a thing? So it was actually a bad thing to come back?

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Yeah, it was a mistake to come back, according to Yoshi P's own words. The game isn't going to change out of its grind for tomestones, so the thing that turned you off the last time is going to turn you off this time. That intentionally repetitive feeling is waiting for you to come back once you catch up.

This kind of raises questions of why to get on the gear treadmill in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I don't get why ppl should be angry since yoshida said the truth, old gen MMOs don't cut it at all. I mean look no further than wildstar you have the proof.

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I'm not really going to participate with this thread because it's going nowhere but i do want to say that the wildstar argument is absolutely irrelevant when talking about types of content that fail. Wildstar was a brand new game and a brand new IP. You can't design a game like that when it's something nobody knows about. Final fantasy can do much more because it has that name, it's final fantasy. It already has a massive existing fan-base. I never played an MMO until FF XIV and i never thought i would but because final fantasy is final fantasy, i had to.

Oh, didn't realize there was 2 threads on this interview. Well, guess I'll share the post I made here as well:

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The answer Yoshi-P gave for character growth is really backwards, and it makes me feel like he just has no idea how to play RPGs. You don't need to go full XI to have properly fun character growth. He gave an example of: "You run into a boss who's weak to fire, so you go get a fire weapon and beat the boss. But then they release a boss who's weak to ice in the next patch, so you need to go get an ice weapon." For some reason he thinks that until that patch releases players will just sit on their thumbs, then realize "oh I need a weapon that isn't just this fire weapon", and then go get the ice weapon. No. They're going to go out and get the different weapons, different gear, etc as long as it's fun to do it. It's genuinely just an excuse to not bother putting any complexity into the game at all.

Also I'm extremely annoyed with his perception that once you reach ilvl cap you should level another job or play another game - but not because of the reason most people are. My entire issue with this is that getting to max ilvl basically means doing one thing that is readily accessible once you beat normal mode (a task that a monkey with a typewriter can do). After you beat Savage... frankly, you don't even need to farm it. Why? Because, first of all, ilvl resets on the next even number patch - including weapon, apparently, so there is literally no reason to get all that gear. And why is there no reason to get all that gear? Because there's nothing to do after you beat Savage. And they're making Savage clearable in 2 months by midcore groups! That's fine, don't get me wrong, I am all for them lowering the difficulty if we're only given the 2 difficulties (though I'd prefer them just doing Normal + Hard = even patch, Savage = odd patch) - my problem lies in the fact that after 2 months... everyone that raids is done raiding. There's nothing left. It's over. We have no more new content to do for 4 months.

I really hope they rethink their perspective on how they should handle end game in 4.0. It's entirely backwards atm.

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Originally Posted by Clover_Blake

What people? You and some others like you? I for one love the current system. It lets players obtain good equipment by working everyday

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Maybe the fact that you consider it "work" should tell you the fault in the current system.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Is it the same ls/fc? cuz those people may have moved on. look for new ones.

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The fc has like 15 ish active people, the rest havent been on for nearly 2 months. The linkshell, they all have been logged on recently (you can tell when their job is actived on the search info) plus the leaders there kick the innactive people for longer than 3 months to get more people in who are actually active.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Yeah, it was a mistake to come back

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Hmm. Well my impression (from many people on this forum/reddit) that the game is overral active, but how is it active when people leave for months then come back later? This leaves me kinda frustrated to be honest. Giving me false fact. I can get I can get people to help me etc, but let's be honest and also understanding, that not everyone can do that when they are logged on, they want to do their own things. Like I said don't get me wrong, but why do people ''hype'' that this game going well, when I could see from a long mile it was like this. I was hoping the game was going to be going a different path, well a bit different, not too much. However, before I resubbed, I was thinking hmm might check things up. I read up on here then I read on reddit there is a lot of things to do, then I hear from people in here that people leave for months then come back later. How is that healthy? I mean for new players or very old returning ones? Do people ever consider this or is it me just thinking wrong here?

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

The fc has like 15 ish active people, the rest havent been on for nearly 2 months. The linkshell, they all have been logged on recently (you can tell when their job is actived on the search info) plus the leaders there kick the innactive people for longer than 3 months to get more people in who are actually active.

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Things will pick up again with the patch. It's a normal cycle. I can see it now in game with the activity increasing pre-patch. I can even see it with sales on the market board. People are getting ready for Tuesday.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Things will pick up again with the patch. It's a normal cycle. I can see it now in game with the activity increasing pre-patch. I can even see it with sales on the market board. People are getting ready for Tuesday.

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Thank you, it's just the fact I'm worried for myself and other people who are new or recently came back. Yesterday I saw a couple of people who did the same main story quest like me, some of us ended up doing some of them together which is cool, however the wait wasn't fun and some of us just logged out. I can understand people do want breaks, but this is a bit concern, considering, many people preach new players coming to game is good (which is true!) however, those players need someone to ''guide'' them and make the game feel that it's not a ''ghost town'' just like it has for me.

" This is just an imagination, but 10 years into the future we might shift into a team consisted of members who all truly love FFXIV and we might take our risk to release an expansion with that kind of character development involved in it, but at the moment it's impossible."

Well, I really hope this games last this much with expansions and all that!! I absolutely love FFXIV to let it go ;-;

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Originally Posted by HungryHippo

Thank you, it's just the fact I'm worried for myself and other people who are new or recently came back. Yesterday I saw a couple of people who did the same main story quest like me, some of us ended up doing some of them together which is cool, however the wait wasn't fun and some of us just logged out.

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Well try and find a good free company if the one you're in isn't very active. There are a lot of new leafs on Siren. I see them even on Gilgamesh where I have a couple of alts. Relic and roulettes get people to run older content but it's certainly easier if you can team up with FC mates. I've leveled a number of alts so I know the grind of having to work back through story and all. I love the game and I'm excited personally for the patch next week.

:) Good luck.

Well that was a depressing read. I'm glad to get it though, because now I know to give up any hope for the game's future.

Maybe I'll be back in another 3 months.

I can understand that at start of ARR they wanted to play it safe, and it was a great game, easy to get into. Heavenswards rolls out and the hype is big, everyone levels up, figuring out lv 60 rotation and gets to endgame, aaaaand its the same formula as 2.X.
Fine, I can even accept that going safe for the first expansion is a good idea, why fix what aint broken right? New players have it easy to get into expansion, even more now with the QoL patches through 3.X series, Novice Hall, etc.

But one our wishes that I know have been asked for since 2.2 days, is still not being considered. I am talking about gearsets bonuses on equipement, Raid / Tomestone / Crafted / Dungeon equipments. Yoshida did say in a recent interview that the system for that type of thing is already in the game, pointed at the GC gearsets with the Sanction buff.

But he is afraid it will block people from entering content since players will go, "You don't have X item? Sorry but we cant take you with us", which is understandable but its already happening with itemlevel / have you cleared this content? (First time bonus).

I feel going safe most of the time is a good thing for new players, but when do we start focus on the longterm players? You have players that sub for a new patch, does the new content and is happy, maybe gives Savage a try, some even go so far to say its too hard, please nerf it since my casual playstyle cant beat it or dedicate time for it but then stops playing and waits for new patch.

Its the players that keeps their sub active that is asking for more growth content or something to work towards, like the relic weapons, maybe give us relic armor sets with its own unique gearset bonus.
Its the players that dedicate time for this game everyday, that maybe is part of a FC that chew through the major patch content in a week time, they are the main group of people that are the big income in a subscription game, we love this game and wants the best for it, we want challenging content but feel our voice is never heard because the casual voice group overdeafen us with, "please nerf x content, its too hard, i cant play enough or dedicate enough time to learn mechanics, I dont want to learn my class / rotation or read tooltips on skills, hand me items for free please" everytime they try to add more content that is more focused on harder, grindy, challenging content when we are finally heard.

Little extreme but you get the point, even in the interview Yoshida says it himself, over half of the player base have yet to clear Binding Coil of Bahamut with Echo buff which makes me sad since the difficulty on Coil was somewhat perfect and had fun mechanics, I wish everyone could have a equal fun learning time to work on their own class and draw out its full potential and work with a group to clear it.

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Originally Posted by YakushiHinata

But he is afraid it will block people from entering content since players will go, "You don't have X item? Sorry but we cant take you with us", which is understandable but its already happening with itemlevel / have you cleared this content? (First time bonus).

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Exactly this. It already happens with iLvl, Exp and Job choice..
Give us set bonus on raid gear, make tome gear progression gear.

Raid Gear should always been the best for the job. Down with mix and matching.

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Originally Posted by Ollieland

Exactly this. It already happens with iLvl, Exp and Job choice..
Give us set bonus on raid gear, make tome gear progression gear.

Raid Gear should always been the best for the job. Down with mix and matching.

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Yeah, I gotta agree on the matter. I mean to begin with, the arguments about not taking someone for not having unnecessary beneficial gear (which does happen, as has been pointed out) is kinda pointless. I think what a lot of people are imagining are the extremes, as in we're going full on early XI progression measures and stat implementing. Yoshi-P might also be one of those folks who are simply looking at it from the extreme angle, rather than from small increments of new and "fun" stats. For as strategy based as elemental properties to mob mechanics were in games like both XI and vanilla WoW, we really don't need to go that far, at least not all at once if wanting to.

With the example of fire properties to deal more damage to ice, we're not quite there yet with this game, and such a measure would be too "advanced" or difficult to implement properly. We don't have proper "type" resistances to actually make that a thing. We don't have "blunt" or "slash" or whatever resistances in 2.0+, though I believe some 1.0 equips still linger with slash resistance. Introducing resistance mechanics to a game that does not have it is probably more work than it's worth, exception possibly being for something on a grander scale like an expansion... but still a lot more work than they're likely comfortable with for balance sake.

Your mention of set bonuses are different however. Those can absolutely be introduced with only some degrees of additional balance work being needed. They could always go the easy route and make set bonuses more pertinent for solo or maybe more of a universal bonus (as in all jobs have the same set bonuses). Start small and gather data on interest. Throw in little unique job altering stats that make only small differences to balance (e.g. bonus stat that adds +5% Windbite damage or +5% increased chance to proc Bloodletter), if they still want to play it safe.

It's always a risk to add new things that change the current, but it's just as much of a risk to leave it as it is for the indefinite future. It just needs to be argued to Yoshi-P or the devs that they don't have to go head first into such changes. If the entire basis of MMORPGs is to be this ever evolving genre of game, then that also implies they can control how quickly it happens.

I like how ppl always mention the grind for tomestones and how they dislike it, yet capping your weekly tomestones takes less than 3h per week, if you only do expert roulettes. But then the question comes up, what you need that gear for anyway, if you don't actually use it. And if you don't need it, capping stones or not becomes less of an issue.
the only time you actually grind for tomestones is when we get a new relic stage and you feel like having to finish it asap. but that's something everyone has to decide for him/herself