Class Reform info.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

That table is just saying at what rank we learn spells. Please don't treat me like I'm stupid. :<



I think you're right. I'll have to wait until the next announcement.

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the letter clearly states that you only learn one action every so levels. fire, water, aero, thunder, and stone would be 5 actions at one time.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

the letter clearly states that you only learn one action every so levels. fire, water, aero, thunder, and stone would be 5 actions at one time.

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Hahaha! I found it!!

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•Fifteen actions and eleven traits will be made available for each class up to level 50, with either one action or trait learned for every two levels gained. Job-exclusive actions will be made obtainable via quests and treated separately.

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Well that sucks...

Elemental debuffs and nukes, absorbs and ancient magic might count as a single, special, action. They are all acquired at the same level right now. Could be like that after the patch as well because each counted as a single action might be too much. Things like Slow and Gravity (THM 8) are the actions that will probably stop sharing levels.

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Where?? /ten

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ok look at the table itself, that in itself should self explanatory where it says 1st action, not first list of actions.

also, another clue would be reformed elemental wands that are currently in game. their levels are tiered according to which element.
the wind wand is level 24? the next one up is level 30 something (this is off the top of my head from when i looked at the market wards.) this coincides perfectly with aero generally going to be a weaker spell than all of the others because your going to learn that first.

oh yeah and there is this.

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one action or trait learned for every two levels gained

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thats a direct quote from the letter. again having more than one spell learned at level 1 would not be

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one action or trait learned for every two levels gained

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Dread: Please see edit. You could have quoted that from the get-go...

I didn't notice that about wands... that's a good point.

What I find interesting is the number and frequency of levels where you get nothing. You never encounter two such levels in a row. Every other level you gain your always getting at least 1 new skill.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

the letter clearly states that you only learn one action every so levels. fire, water, aero, thunder, and stone would be 5 actions at one time.

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The only reason I can see them making water/fire/aero/thunder etc as one is because currently they all do the same dmg unlike XI. They're the same level learned, and only do variance in damage based off of resists/crit/mob weak to XXX element. currently so I don't see why they would break away from that.

CNJ at the moment excluding teirs has 44 unique actions/traits. If you start grouping spells such as (elemental spells, ancient magic, debuffs / buffs you start to see around 20ish actions/traits.

Unless they plan on getting rid of some spells until WHM/BLM is introduced I see them "grouping" certain spells as a more viable answer (Look how you obtain spells currently at the moment: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Conjurer )

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Originally Posted by Sorel

What I find interesting is the number and frequency of levels where you get nothing. You never encounter two such levels in a row. Every other level you gain your always getting at least 1 new skill.

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Potency of existing actions goes up even during these "drought" levels.

Since "traits" can only be equipped on one class, "affinity traits" will disappear? Tiered traits will also vanish?

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Originally Posted by NarikoStar

The only reason I can see them making water/fire/aero/thunder etc as one is because currently they all do the same dmg unlike XI. They're the same level learned, and only do variance in damage based off of resists/crit/mob weak to XXX element. currently so I don't see why they would break away from that.

CNJ at the moment excluding teirs has 44 unique actions/traits. If you start grouping spells such as (elemental spells, ancient magic, debuffs / buffs you start to see around 20ish actions/traits.

Unless they plan on getting rid of some spells until WHM/BLM is introduced I see them "grouping" certain spells as a more viable answer (Look how you obtain spells currently at the moment: http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Conjurer )

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i believe they are going to reform the spells to be tiered by elemental type. heres why :

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also, another clue would be reformed elemental wands that are currently in game. their levels are tiered according to which element.
the wind wand is level 24? the next one up is level 30 something (this is off the top of my head from when i looked at the market wards.) this coincides perfectly with aero generally going to be a weaker spell than all of the others because your going to learn that first.

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its becoming obvious to me that the elemental type is going to have a huge impact on whether or not its viable for damage just as the system was in FFXI.
we used Thunder and Blizzard almost exclussively because not only were many mobs weak to them but because they were higher... well you know what i mean. yeah i think the system is going in the direction.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

What I find interesting is the number and frequency of levels where you get nothing. You never encounter two such levels in a row. Every other level you gain your always getting at least 1 new skill.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Potency of existing actions goes up even during these "drought" levels.

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I didn't say it was a bad thing. Just that it was interesting. It wouldn't be a bad idea if they tie in your bonus customizable stat points to these "drought" levels, and thus have every level gained give something. Just a thought.

i dont think they thought this out that well, you cant reduce mages skill pools that drastically, and pugilist really needs fleet of foot, unless they are gonna give out instant transmission, they already have extremely short range and have to get really close, now they will take longer doing it?
better give em a better version or instant transmission skill, Also, moving around the monster for more dmg, wow, if lancer is the only one with fleet of foot, they will be best at this as well, lnc still the most loved.

and yeahhhh this took so long to proof? basically told us nothing but an extremely rough idea, such shenanigans.

CNJ has over 45 abilities, not couting the fires II and such. Classes going to be trimmed of lots of abilities.

I really hope we don't see a similar system to FFXI in regards to spell effectiveness. A spell's potency should be effected by the mob's weakness to that element. I don't see why they couldn't just give you all of the elemental spells and force you to choose one to slot. If instead they give them out as separate skills. Conjurer and Thaum will be waving goodbye to a huge amount of abilities.

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Originally Posted by Radav

I really hope we don't see a similar system to FFXI in regards to spell effectiveness. A spell's potency should be effected by the mob's weakness to that element. I don't see why they couldn't just give you all of the elemental spells and force you to choose one to slot. If instead they give them out as separate skills. Conjurer and Thaum will be waving goodbye to a huge amount of abilities.

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i pretty much agree. i dont understand why they give us aero if were only going to use for one level. i cant remember the elemental order, but once you get the top two at level 50, no others will be used.
i almost never saw Aero or Water spells in FFXI yet i thought the visual effects were fantastic in the later levels.

too bad the visual appeal of being a magic caster might be lost in this game.

very very generic.

Suddenly the mage situation makes sense. Rather than create new abilities for the jobs, they are just going to cut some excess off the classes and move the abilities to the jobs.

As long as the current lore and Class --> Job plans stay as they are, CNJ will need at least the following abilities.

1. Cure
2. Curaga
3. Raise
4. Paralyna
5. Poisona
6. Silena
7. Protect
8. Shell
9. Aero
10. Water
11. Fire
12. Thunder
13. Blizzard
14. Stone

This covers all healing magic and all the "basic" elemental spells.

The elemental debuffs and the ancient magic elemental spells are not basic. I can see the elemental debuffs getting moved to Thaumaturge, to join the other debuffs. Just looking at their names (Drown, Rasp, Choke, Shock, Frost, Burn) and the actual effect they have (i.e. slowly draining the life out of you), I can see how the development team could move them without disrupting the flavor and lore of either class.

Honestly, the ancient elemental magic spells should be reserved for the Black Mage job, and quested for. Their power should be adjusted upwards accordingly.

This is all just my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Suddenly the mage situation makes sense. Rather than create new abilities for the jobs, they are just going to cut some excess off the classes and move the abilities to the jobs.

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im glad you dont care at all for visual effects, we need more of that in the game industry.
screw having a streamlined system that can handle as many spells as it wants. lets minimize everything.

i can even point out animations that i feel could use some work.
i guess im that anal.

Overall I was hoping that they would go more into detail of class specific changes, rather than an overview of the entire armory system.

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Originally Posted by Fear

Also Shield becoming part of Gladiator will bother some ppl.

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I can see why they are doing this, sentinel might have been it's own class in theory but in reality it was more of a supplement to the armory system. Mages should still be able to have access to these skills from gladiator.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

As long as the current lore and Class --> Job plans stay as they are, CNJ will need at least the following abilities.


This covers all healing magic and all the "basic" elemental spells.

The elemental debuffs and the ancient magic elemental spells are not basic. I can see the elemental debuffs getting moved to Thaumaturge, to join the other debuffs. Just looking at their names (Drown, Rasp, Choke, Shock, Frost, Burn) and the actual effect they have (i.e. slowly draining the life out of you), I can see how the development team could move them without disrupting the flavor and lore of either class.

Honestly, the ancient elemental magic spells should be reserved for the Black Mage job, and quested for. Their power should be adjusted upwards accordingly.

This is all just my opinion though.

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You know what's another idea? They said that spells can have combos too... so casting water a certain way may inflict the effect of Drown.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

im glad you dont care at all for visual effects, we need more of that in the game industry.
screw having a streamlined system that can handle as many spells as it wants. lets minimize everything.

i can even point out animations that i feel could use some work.
i guess im that anal.

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What are you talking about? How do you even get that out of what I said?

It's like some of you stopped taking English in third grade and replaced it with classes that teach you how to be an ignorant jerk on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

i believe they are going to reform the spells to be tiered by elemental type. heres why :


its becoming obvious to me that the elemental type is going to have a huge impact on whether or not its viable for damage just as the system was in FFXI.
we used Thunder and Blizzard almost exclussively because not only were many mobs weak to them but because they were higher... well you know what i mean. yeah i think the system is going in the direction.

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The elemental wands are two different levels from each other. Their separated not based on their own element but the umbral/astral affinity they represent. Wand of Tremors/Tides/Frost = rank 42 (Earth/water/ice = Umbral) while Wand of Flames/Gales/Storms = rank 48 (Fire/Wind/Thunder = Astral). These are the higher tiered weapons while the dated all shared the same level (that is when they were in their elemental state, and not budding/nq wand.)

I don't think the games moving in that direction if anything its grasping on what it the original XIV elemental wheel was. If they are so to say 'grouped' I would say they are grouped by affinity rather than element.

(I must say though it is quite interesting why Astral affinity is higher, if I had to conclude anything by theory it is because of the base stats being more DPS stated (STR/DEX/PIE) Although PIE doesn't really fit into the mix, on the umbral side neither does VIT... quite interesting indeed.)

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Originally Posted by NarikoStar

The elemental wands are two different levels from each other. Their separated not based on their own element but the umbral/astral affinity they represent. Wand of Tremors/Tides/Frost = rank 42 (Earth/water/ice = Umbral) while Wand of Flames/Gales/Storms = rank 48 (Fire/Wind/Thunder = Astral). These are the higher tiered weapons while the dated all shared the same level (that is when they were in their elemental state, and not budding/nq wand.)

I don't think the games moving in that direction if anything its grasping on what it the original XIV elemental wheel was. If they are so to say 'grouped' I would say they are grouped by affinity rather than element.

(I must say though it is quite interesting why Astral affinity is higher, if I had to conclude anything by theory it is because of the base stats being more DPS stated (STR/DEX/PIE) Although PIE doesn't really fit into the mix, on the umbral side neither does VIT... quite interesting indeed.)

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well you apparantly know more than me on this subject. i took THM to 44 in my other character and that was pretty much it for magic as i thought they were pretty bland.

i hope your more correct than i am as i do want to be able to use powerful looking spells of all elements AND have them be damaging >.< unlike FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

What are you talking about? How do you even get that out of what I said?

It's like some of you stopped taking English in third grade and replaced it with classes that teach you how to be an ignorant jerk on the internet.

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i absolutely apologize, it was jerkish and out of nowhere.
this is the first time ive been bitter about anything the team has done so im a bit jumpy at anyone who supports me no longer having large fancy spell effects when im a large fancy Nuker/the new system.

The fact is that they are putting a lot of attention into visual detail, as that will be the first thing that will impress people that look at pics or a trailer for the game, and that is what people expect out of an FF.

It is inevitable that the actions are going to look more impressive in both aesthetics and from a technical standpoint, if not in 1.X then in 2.0 at the latest with the improved shader and ambient options.

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this is the first time ive been bitter about anything the team has done

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They haven't even done anything. You counted 1+X=3 and are now upset about that assumption. Take a step back and be patient.

Yeah, I really don't want it to end up like BLM in XI where I don't even bother to buy the other spells (lololol oh wait! we don't buy spells in this game ROFL +1)

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

The fact is that they are putting a lot of attention into visual detail, as that will be the first thing that will impress people that look at pics or a trailer for the game, and that is what people expect out of an FF.

It is inevitable that the actions are going to look more impressive in both aesthetics and from a technical standpoint, if not in 1.X then in 2.0 at the latest with the improved shader and ambient options.



They haven't even done anything. You counted 1+X=3 and are now upset about that assumption. Take a step back and be patient.

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im talking about since theyve started reforming the game.
i support jump, mob mounts, the ifrit weapons, the de emphasis of DOL/DOH (in aspects), an action house/AHMW combo, pretty much everything yoshi has done and wants to do.
"1" in that equation isnt this situation, its the hiring of Yoshi P.

Yeah I wonder what they are going to add/subtract. According to their chart you will have 15 actions at 50 when we have 28 at 50 now for lancer as an example. We have 23 if they do away with all the tier 2 actions. So unless traits are counted we will lose tons of skills. I trust them ofcourse but just curious. Guess we will see next week.

Not sure if im reading all your posts correct, but it seems like you are all assuming that the table references what spells and abilities can be learned at certain levels?

Maybe im wrong but.....
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...1at43540AM.png
Clearly it states nothing of the sort!
It says "Actions" and "Traits".
Ok ok, so 15 actions is a far cry from what we currently have the potential to equip, but it just means that we will have to equip spells and abilities appropriately for specific tasks. :)

Spells are actions. All actions native to the class are going to automatically be assigned, and cannot be unassigned.

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Upon learning an action for your current class, that action will automatically be set to the action bar and cannot be voluntarily removed. It will be possible, however, to move the action to another slot.

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Hm I think what dissapoints me is how traits are being handled, however I do have a suggestion for how they could put Guild Marks into the mix. As I was writing it out before I realized that perhaps they fear that if they had traits where Conjurer has a magic defense up, it would cause people to be forced to level Conjurerer for that very trait to enhance ones strength against magic. In the same sense that Sentinal now is pretty mucha staple against fighting ifrit.

So basically the reform goes like this create a secondary use for Guardian Aspect. This secondary use would impose a challenge on a leve in order to earn Guild Marks for a specific class. There would be limits however like let's consider that the GM additional challenge for Archer required one to obtain x amount of pelt from enemy before considering it a success. In that sense you wouldn't be able to impose that Guardian Aspect on a leve where you fight humanoids.

So basically I see it like this
GLA=Opponents ATT is increased, Your defense is lowered or Protect npc while completing objective
MRD=Decreased Attack, oponents defense is increased, Addtional mobs are requested
ARC= Pelt/hides are added to request, Enemies will keep distance and use RA unless played closes in (Melee strikes from enemies will be 3x as strong as their RA move during these leves), Unique tracker leve where you have to follow the proper path to find the mob to slay at the end of the leve.
PUG= Enemy HP is increased. VIT is reduce, Enemy pop. reduced in favor of beefed up opponent (focuses highly on countering)
LNC= enemy crit rate increased, crit potency reduced, Negate ability to crit hit
THM= increase enemy mag defense, Impose random stat down every minute, Add THM mobs to leve
CON=Grants regen on enemy, prevent restorative abilities for player, lower elemental resist.

So pretty much I just thought of this as I wrote this but the general idea is, you pick up a leve and upon using 1 GA you can impose 1 Guild Mark handicap on you in order to obtain Guild Marks for that class. Basically the way it would work is you would have to obtain CON GM to obtain traits related to Conjurer so that you wouldn't be forced to level Conjurer to learn it's traits but of course you wouldn't be able to learn abilities through Guild Marks.

I think one way to put it is, perhaps Guild Marks could be used as a means to obtain traits that enhance ones stats based on the knowledge of that class. With that in mind I wouldn't mind seeing the same imposed limitation as with abilities from other classes such as you can only have a trait from another class every level, so you would only be able to put 5 traits from another class onto your class.

Now the traits in question wouldn't be things like "Increase the potency of Iron Tempest" but rather boost that show off their design.

Like Gladiator is a defensive class so they could have Guild Mark traits that increase Defense, Vitality and such. The way Guild Marks would work now is this, pretty much you earn marks for that class based on completing the limitation imposed on you during the leve. By completing those objectives you prove to that Class that you are worthy of learning the secret of some of their traits. I feel like this would add another depth to allow customization of mixing and matching traits within other claslses that pertain more to stat/attribute or even elemental resist/status resist boost rather then ability potency increased.

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One thing I"m dissapointed in though is hearing this makes me think all the traits we were able to learn will pretty much be abolished, so the STR to INT traits which was nice for crafting classes and gathering classes to increase quantity obtained will no longer be possible which does dissapoint me. I'm curious as to whether traits like Enmity +10 for MRD will be eliminated since they seem to want traits to just be based on the potency of abilities rather thena passive ability. But ya, just reading the introduction to the changes those are my real concerns over it.

Overall the changes do sound like they could be interesting, though I wish they would give the option to actually remove abilities froma class if you outright hate them lol. It'll definitely be interesting when we see the actual changes to each class though, to bad we have to wait a few more days though lol.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Spells are actions. All actions native to the class are going to automatically be assigned, and cannot be unassigned.

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So you seriously think we are only going to learn 15 spells/abilities throughout the course of levelling from 1-50?
I highly doubt it

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Originally Posted by AshToreth

So you seriously think we are only going to learn 15 spells/abilities throught the course of levelling from 1-50?
I highly doubt it

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That's what they wrote.

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Fifteen actions and eleven traits will be made available for each class up to level 50, with either one action or trait learned for every two levels gained. Job-exclusive actions will be made obtainable via quests and treated separately.

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That 26 skills in total over 50 levels. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

Actions are the spells/abilities that we choose to equip as actions on the action bar.

A spell is a spell and an ability is an ability.

I believe everyone has taken this out of context. The table is set under a heading of "Setting Actions and Traits"

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Originally Posted by AshToreth

Actions are the spells/abilities that we choose to equip as actions on the action bar.

A spell is a spell and an ability is an ability.

I believe everyone has taken this out of context. The table is set under a heading of "Setting Actions and Traits"

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That is possible, but reading it over twice now, I don't see how we can get around that they said actions (be they spell or ability) will automatically be assigned, unable to be removed ... and then they show a chart listing how many actions a class at a certain level will get.

I don't think I'm missing anything.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

That is possible, but reading it over twice now, I don't see how we can get around that they said actions (be they spell or ability) will automatically be assigned, unable to be removed ... and then they show a chart listing how many actions a class at a certain level will get.

I don't think I'm missing anything.

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My understanding of that is just that, as we learn an extra action slot, it will be automatically assigned.
Makes perfect sense to me. Why would anyone not want to have all available action slots open to them and assigned automatically for use, as and when you learn them.

hahahah guess i was right when i was flamed in the translation thread. The current system of traits SUCKED so they are completely scrapping it and making it better. I love the way it looks. Now to see if the traits are actually good....

They could still have certain spells be learned as batches, with them being assigned to multiple slots, some kind of selector for which to assign (ie your basic nuke action having a submenu in the Action & Traits where you pick what element it currently is) or a submenu when you actually cast (with potentially the last used element being the default element the next time you cast to minimize steps each cast).

There's a lot of ways they could potentially handle this without completely gutting the range of actions available (ie wiping DoTs out, removing half the buffs and debuffs so everything fits in 15) or removing the elemental affinity/weaknesses system by merging them into generic spells, the moment of truth will be when they reveal the full list of actions. Once they reveal that information we can have more constructive discussions on the topic since right now people are extrapolating based on assumptions that might have nothing to do with what the plans actually are. Of course, all the info being released together would have been a lot more helpful there but between getting nothing until next week and getting this part today with the rest then, I'll take the option they chose.

I would not worry about the animations stuff at this point, of course visuals matter but compared to proper mechanics they really don't stack up in short term importance. Also, they already have multiple visual renditions for the spells, those being maintained (or restored in subsequent patches) and then expanded up is pretty much a given. SE knows visual appeal is one of the few strong points the game had from the start and they didn't highlight the text about upcoming visual upgrades for no reason.

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Originally Posted by AshToreth

My understanding of that is just that, as we learn an extra action slot, it will be automatically assigned.
Makes perfect sense to me. Why would anyone not want to have all available action slots open to them and assigned automatically for use as you learn them.

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I think I see your your coming from. The only thing I have to say is what the development team wrote.

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Fifteen actions and eleven traits will be made available for each class up to level 50, with either one action or trait learned for every two levels gained.

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They don't say 15 "action slots" and 11 "trait slots". The say 15 actions and 11 traits.

The chart columns are not titles "Action Slots" or "Trait Slots" they are called "Action" and Traits".

I think you may be assuming they mean slots ... but because they don't actually say "slots" I cannot make that assumption with you. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

ive been waiting for 1.20 to fiiiinally immerse myself into BLM.

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:rolleyes:


immersion: totally about graphics