Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Because personal expectation level varies based on the person and when they are introduced to players they are placed with at a random queue it may not be as one expects. For example, if one person performs well as a A rank while another person performs well as a A Rank but does not perform the way that other person would have done things then they would not have met that other person's expectation level.

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I don't think Rice was only talking about skill or play style. They were talking about basic human courtesies like being considerate towards the rest of people in your party; which I have personally seen lacking in a lot of players.

I don't think basic courtesies like consideration and respect towards the fellow human beings in your party is a lot to ask for and typically should fall under the realm of a given instead of 'personal expectations differ so DF is just being DF.'

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Unless someone is trolling, no one ever wants wipes or slower runs beyond what the team is capable of handling or being considerate to new players watching cutscenes. But we already have in this game a PF system which allows elitist jerks and/or people who are higher skilled but not elitist to form groups of like minded, equally skilled people. If do not like the fact DF in NA and EU servers is used for new players and has a large variation in skill levels plus hate using PF to do what I just suggested then play on a JP server if prefer their method.

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It's kinda funny when you see people jump into a topic clearly only read a selected few posts and start calling everyone elitist this elitist that. Who said they hate new players in DF? Most people here only want that any player in DF would at least try or put in effort to learn or do their job. No kind of excuse can be justified for a (not new) player at level 60 in i220+ doing 300-500 dps (which is basically not even 50% of what they should be able to do, and not even have to try that hard to reach).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Should we have no expectations of the basic foundation of gameplay in DF, then? Should the lack of performance be a justifiable thing on DF? I don't think anyone wants that to be the case, let alone have DF content tuned so that its passable. It creates that severe gap in ski and eventually boredom

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Outside of EX and Savage most DF content tends to be okay for most people, most players exceed the basic foundations of gameplay argument you are trying to use as an excuse and it is only the occasional bad player or bad group. They are the exception and not the rule. Stop pretending you only want people to grasp the basic foundations of gameplay, most people in DF already do so and a few bad apples do not change that. These days elitists knowing that they are despised tend to hide behind the excuse "We just want them to know the basic fundamentals of their class" when in reality what they really want is "We want to punish anyone who does not far exceed the basic fundamentals of their class".

Maybe you should go play on the Japanese servers if you think they do it better. This is why SE locked out certain content from DF such as Extreme primals and later unlocked so anyone can try to do it.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

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As great as this would be, it will never ever happen. It would require a lot of dev work to make a grading system that worked properly, and they would never put in that kind of effort for an NA-only problem.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Maybe you should go play on the Japanese servers if you think they do it better. This is why SE locked out certain content from DF such as Extreme primals.

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In mid 2016 there were a mass exodus of "elitist" players from NA/EU server to JP servers, the casual players who stayed celebrated their victories in keeping the game fun for everyone, and the "right" for people to play however they want. Later that year with 3.4 release, SE had to put out several emergency hotfixes for NA/EU server to double/triple nerf most of the story trials in order to help players get pass certain part of the stories. This did't go well with the "elitist" who are currently playing in JP server since their version got affected too. Next year, in order to fix the root of the problem, SE released FFXIV mobile version, specific targeting the NA/EU player base. It was a huge success, people only need to tap the screen for their character to attack or heal. A "premium" version even have the "auto all", and include a side windows for your favorite netflix/youtube shows.

P.S: I also heard many progression tracking website had to adjust to add the normal version of 8-man content too, for NA/EU NA/EU-first.

P.P.S: add obligated /s tag just in case.

I am not pretending. The bare expectation I have when I go into DF for anything is for people to know their 1-2-3 combo and how their Abilties work. Is it elitist of me for a Blm at level 60 to understand how their III spells to work, or that alternating between fire and blizzard I is inefficient?

Is that seriously too much to ask for? Don't read too deep into what I'm looking for, while its the exception, it still happens more than I'd like, and responses like yours make it feel like you're justifying that sort of thing. You're applying your viewpoint toward that exception is my issue, and I feel that it's also the case for other people.

Quite frankly, if there's so much resistance to ANY idea on this side of the pond to even encourage players to perform even slightly better to alleviate the current crappy reputation Duty Finder has, then we don't really deserve to be taken seriously by the Japanese devs in matters regarding new content and balancing. There is a reason they only really field glamour questions from us.

While this idea is particularly crappy, I've seen more reasonable things shot down because of calls of elitism too. Hell, last week I gave out advice on how to handle meteors in Wiping City, and what did I get from another fellow 'mentor'? He thought I was disrespecting him. Does the concept of constructive criticism not exist here anymore?

Those elitist usually quit after 1-2 wipes anyways so does really matter if they stick around or not cause they not helping the weaker clear the content anyways.

You do not punish everyone else in DF with a vindictive and spiteful idea like the OP's which further segregates and splits the community plus forces longer queue times just because of a few bad apples. As said they are the exception and not the rule, if desire a lower chance of running into bad apples (specifically one's that may not be on par with your desired skill level) then you already have a tool in your arsenal you can use called PF which is less random and is more controlled.

This excuse of "only want people to at least know the fundamentals..." I see too often these days from the same sort of people who also expect everyone to give 110% in lower level more casual content or bash others for taking 20 minutes to clear instead of 15 minutes or them hating on new players having the audacity to slow them down because the new player wanted to watch the cutscene for their first time there. A party wide parser supporter who sometimes single out and harass people for not topping their DPS charts or the sort of people who insult those who simply made a mistake or two in a run. The kind of person who demands people far exceed the required ilvl instead of meeting the minimum requirement.

In reality the truth of the matter is most people in DF know the fundamentals of their class and perform adequately so that excuse is a poor one which even vindictive or elitist people use/hide behind...it is only the occasional bad player or bad group which does not perform adequately and using them as the benchmark/the baseline, imposing damaging changes on the majority like the OP's idea is not the right way to go about tackling what is for the most part a small percentage of really bad players. We already have tools in this game for dealing with the worst offenders (vote kick) and tools for minimizing your exposure to them (PF).

DF pulls from a vastly larger pool of players across multiple servers and with much wider variance in skill levels, you cannot set your own restrictions and specifications on DF parties unlike PF so you are bound to come across more bad players in DF...but such players are still a small fraction of the DF users and you do have the tools to cope with and even avoid that if you lack the patience and willingness to deal with the occasional occurrence of such via vote kicks, vote abandons, report functions and even using PF instead.

What I think is hilarious is that the Elitists talk about "my parties wipe all the time because of bads." What's the common denominator?

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Those elitist usually quit after 1-2 wipes anyways so does really matter if they stick around or not cause they not helping the weaker clear the content anyways.

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Once i queued in thordan ex on DF, got a new player who insist on do everything blind. After a few wipes when i wrote a few pointers in the chat to help, he clearly said outright he "won't read anything like that and will keep trying figuring out the fight on his own". I would say most of the other party members didn't feel elitist enough to carry this wipe fest, so we disbanded.

Also, i would say in many content, the one who vote abandon first are not always an "elitist" but some casual who couldn't get their quick carry. It goes both way you know, without any kind of proof you can say anything :P

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

You do not punish everyone else in DF with a vindictive and spiteful idea like the OP's which further segregates and splits the community plus forces longer queue times just because of a few bad apples. As said they are the exception and not the rule, if desire a lower chance of running into bad apples (specifically one's that may not be on par with your desired skill level) then you already have a tool in your arsenal you can use called PF which is less random and is more controlled.

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The OP idea was an idea/suggestion so it has its good and bad points. As the thread going on people have already give their feedback on what they feel like a better way (some kind of rating but not separating etc.) Beside, we either try to improve the situation and move forwards, or stand still and move backwards. The numbers of "exception" will only be increasing if people do nothing (for example: seeing some dps with not good rotation, but instead of giving advice, just shrug off), and one day, the "exception" will be the norm.

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Originally Posted by Normalizer

Once i queued in thordan ex on DF, got a new player who insist on do everything blind. After a few wipes when i wrote a few pointers in the chat to help, he clearly said outright he "won't read anything like that and will keep trying figuring out the fight on his own". I would say most of the other party members didn't feel elitist enough to carry this wipe fest, so we disbanded.

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Well you using a extreme example. From my experience from playing the game from launch is most are going to fall into the decent-good area cause of course there always going to be the "bad" or hard headed players just like elitist that even the casuals don't even want to play with.

how well is this system working for matches in the feast?

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

how well is this system working for matches in the feast?

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People still do that? >_>

What people forget is that the elitists and toxic players so many are talking about, are not the people who want to disband or get frustrated after a couple wipes when they are there to farm something and have those who cannot do join thinking they will get a carry or easy loot, it's the people who refuse to improve their gameplay for reasons such as "I don't want to" or "I pay my sub, not you, so I play how I want".

When you actually take time to learn your job and learn a fight (instead of just buying a win to get rid of the tome bonus and joining a farm group) and want to farm an item, especially a low drop item and you get these types of people in your group can you really blame them for being upset?

Elitists are not people who expect at least decent gameplay in high end content, elitists are those who refuse to try and expect everyone else to just deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I don't think Rice was only talking about skill or play style. They were talking about basic human courtesies like being considerate towards the rest of people in your party; which I have personally seen lacking in a lot of players.

I don't think basic courtesies like consideration and respect towards the fellow human beings in your party is a lot to ask for and typically should fall under the realm of a given instead of 'personal expectations differ so DF is just being DF.'

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I expanded into that part when I edited my post but to run it down for a short version this system generally will not remove any toxic behavior where certain players abandon courtesies for the sake of playing with other players.

There are plenty of people who play at a S, A, or B rank level of skill this system would rank them as but still manage to have almost zero courtesies to other players.

At a player's skill level this system can easily grade them by S, A, B, and etc but at a Personality and Courtesy level it would be almost impossible for a computer programmed system to incorportate their personailty into their Ranking with out other player influencing the Personality rating which can vary based on the player.

One such example is that a Player can be a S or A Rank skilled player but they would still insult another player for "reasons" when that player has done nothing wrong and perform at least at a B or C rank due to the system putting that person in into the A/S rank group due to lack of S/A rnak players. Another could also be lack of communication where a B rank player follows mechanics but the rest of the group ignored mechanics due to wanting to burn through the boss but the B rank is then rated a D or F just because lack of comunication from the other 3 players who normally expect a Burn through boss run without having to discuss things since it would be considered normal for their tier of Rank since they always know being a S/A rank gives them S/A rank players with a small chance of a lower rank player.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Play on a JP server then. What you want for DF is what you already have for PF in that you can create a group tailored to your needs and your specifications, your desired mentality, goals or gear/skill levels.

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If you didn't notice, I already do.

I spent much of 2.X and some of early 3.0 on Gilgamesh and transferred after. Since, I have never had a run where someone was inexcusably bad.

The run starts, everyone gives their greetings, and then they go about their business. Completely courteous, completely focused. Almost everyone has a general grasp on when to AoE, their single target rotations, and almost every healer DPSes during downtime -- everyone actually does their job and relatively well. In the event there is a wipe, people apologize even if it wasn't really their fault, give advice courteously, and keep things civil.

Recently, I joined a DF for Sephirot EX. The fight starts, you get the standard strategy macro, people pick their positions, and we cleared in 3-4 attempts even with a few bonus players. Everyone's performance is about where it should be (DPS are all over 1200 with the highest at ~1700, tanks are 700-900, healers are keeping everyone alive just fine while chipping in a few hundred DPS combined), Everyone says thank you, good-bye, and leaves. Painless.

What I don't get is why people want to have a bad time in DF. Why do people want slower runs, more potential toxicity and drama, more wiping, and more frustration. You play a game to have fun. Why are you making it harder for everyone to do so? That's the sense of mutual respect people just lack on the NA servers.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Maybe you should go play on the Japanese servers if you think they do it better. This is why SE locked out certain content from DF such as Extreme primals and later unlocked so anyone can try to do it.

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No. Its because people has to find out strategy then get clears in. This is where people look for a clear with a good team or look for a carry.

Nice bait, Op

I guess I'm the only one who thinks much smaller ilvl gaps between content would be a ton better. Content stays relevant much longer... battles don't become ridiculously easy, gear doesn't become way overpowered for past fights, people who play multiple classes don't have to worry nearly as much about being locked out due to ilvl req. Lots of would be raiders were probably locked out of nidhogg EX this time around at the start because of the ilvl req and came back having to catch up do to interim quits

It doesn't matter how much stronger gear is. People will still want it, even if its 2 ilvls stronger. Its still vertical progression, its just not a damn elevator with floors where if u dont do the previous floor, you are locked out till you have caught up with your ilvl, its like a ramp where you ease upwards.

I half think SE has chosen these large gaps so people will feel they need to stay subbed so they dont get locked out of newer content cause of their gear ilvl. Some people have probably considered unsubbing for periods between patches but dont for this reason, I know cause I'm one of them. Some do it anyways, quitting on the interim and then coming back frequently.

Edit: On the op's topic though... This is a game not homework, I dont need a grade. Devil may cry actually makes some sense for the ratings cause you could do slick stuff and it was a very ACTION oriented game. This game is not action as much as the devs would like to say it is. Running out of a circle is not action.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

how well is this system working for matches in the feast?

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Do we also have win trading, hacking, the same 100 people playing and limited incentives (Wolf Marks) in dungeons/ trials?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

What I don't get is why people want to have a bad time in DF. Why do people want slower runs, more potential toxicity and drama, more wiping, and more frustration. You play a game to have fun. Why are you making it harder for everyone to do so? That's the sense of mutual respect people just lack on the NA servers.

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This is the big thing, and I feel that the side that is advocating against any sort of policing is not understanding the fact that we are talking about those exceptions (which unfortunately from my past experience, is becoming increasingly more common on DF) and that it shouldn't be given a pass, not in the realm of "you aren't playing to my standard, you get vote kicked".

This is a bad idea. Bad players won't get better playing with other bad players. Good players don't play well 100% of the time. As I run ARF for the 234897234987th time, sometimes I like to not pop cds on trash. Sometimes I like to just use my 2.x rotation. Sometimes I let Enochian drop. Yet my rank would be dinged for all this even though I can do my optimal single target/aoe rotations in my sleep. It's absurd to expect people to play at peak performance for every face roll run just to make sure they hang out with the cool kids.

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Originally Posted by Daemius

This is a bad idea. Bad players won't get better playing with other bad players. Good players don't play well 100% of the time.

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Which is the whole point, if you want to get drunk or get high or play like a slob, you should be putting time in to make a PF for playing non effectively and not wasting time the others who are trying to play effectively. If you don't want to play 100% all the time, then go for that category that doesn't play 100% all the time.

Why do most people just accept it that it's set in stone we don't care about wasting our time carrying people and we should be wasting time to find a decent passable group?

Likewise for the people who want to AFK a dungeon with SCH/sic or who don't want to DPS while healing, go for it, the system will set you up with people who want to do the same.

If you want to learn something, make the time to form a group in PF to not get a grade and specify your group of friends/ you need help. Specify what stage and receive help instead of blindly charging in DF wasting 3-7 other people's time.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

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You will have to take into account DF Roulette as well with this type of system.

Roulette was introduced because players who were skills refused to help players who needed to learn or go through a Dungeon but could not due to becoming harder to find a group to help them through those dungeons since the content become old.

Back during early 2.X the community did use PF as a means to create Learning party before the introduction of Roulette current punishments and rewards. However, as content got older it back harder to create Learning Groups in PF since there was no "Reward" from helping players who were learning or new to the content. It had gotten worse to the point that if a player did not burned through the new contents on day 1 or first week they would get left behind fast being unable to find or create a Learning party for that specific content.

There were even people kicking players new to the content becuase the so called veterans who already beating the content felt their time was more valuable over helping a player get through that content for their first time even when that player new to the content was decently skilled at playing their job.

Not to mention players would out right quit the group over the sight or a "New Player to content" Notice.

People seem to forget, new players are told to use DF in every single quest that uses an instance. That means people are going to be learning the fights as they go along. PF is for those who are like minded that want to group together and farm. Why do you think they offer rewards like tomes to get people to run the leveling instances, it's to ensure those who are doing their quests get a group. I don't understand why people keep trying to fix something that isn't broken, lol.

Yeah the DF isn't broken, it's the players :D

Tbh a grading system which separate DF queue will probably not work as many already pointed out. However, a grading system with incentives may help encourage people to try their best. For example: Small bonus tomes if the dungeon cleared in X amount of time or lower, small gil/exp/tomes bonus for the top dps, a rewards/title for 100/500/1000/2000 dungeons with S ratings or more etc.

But in the end, isn't it a sad thing they have to put incentives for us to use the DF, then incentives for us to try to play the game how it should? :)

SE pls add an Elitist-Server-Cluster and let those uber haxed speed running always playing at 120% guys play with themselfs only :P

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

SE pls add an Elitist-Server-Cluster and let those uber haxed speed running always playing at 120% guys play with themselfs only :P

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I think the option already exist, only downside is the high ping, JP language for most servers, and no free transfer :(

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Originally Posted by Normalizer

I think the option already exist, only downside is the high ping, JP language for most servers, and no free transfer :(

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Why should the transfer be free?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

This is the big thing, and I feel that the side that is advocating against any sort of policing is not understanding the fact that we are talking about those exceptions (which unfortunately from my past experience, is becoming increasingly more common on DF) and that it shouldn't be given a pass, not in the realm of "you aren't playing to my standard, you get vote kicked".

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Well like I said earlier, this specific type of policing is counter productive. You don't improve a bad player by burying them in a ditch with all the other bad players. You don't grow the skill level of your player-base by putting a bunch of speed bumps and road blocks on their path of progression.

The primary issue is you need to get people to care. And, this topic does not address that fundamental issue. Bad players who are content with being bad won't care to become better in this system. Good players won't care to extend themselves beyond themselves.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Maybe you should go play on the Japanese servers if you think they do it better. This is why SE locked out certain content from DF such as Extreme primals and later unlocked so anyone can try to do it.

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I do and I don't regret my move from Gilgamesh to Tonberry (Latency issues mostly since Australian) Not even trying to be "glorious japan!" about it but the player difference even from English speakers themselves playing on Tonberry is night and day.

3.1 was the worst though, loads of NA players moving to Tonberry for their savage clears because they hear about how easy it is to clear on JP servers not even realizing it's their attitude that decided whether they get a clear or not not just player skill. Happy most of them moved back after 3.2, Tonberry is a lot better these days, can't even imagine trying to clear Minstrels Ballad: Nidhogg on a NA server

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Well like I said earlier, this specific type of policing is counter productive. You don't improve a bad player by burying them in a ditch with all the other bad players. You don't grow the skill level of your player-base by putting a bunch of speed bumps and road blocks on their path of progression.

The primary issue is you need to get people to care. And, this topic does not address that fundamental issue. Bad players who are content with being bad won't care to become better in this system. Good players won't care to extend themselves beyond themselves.

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I've already said that I'm not advocating on something like this; pushing away the problem won't solve it. However, the design of the content essentially allows for it, combine that with apathetic people who don't care or even encourage it (indirectly or not, such as telling people to stop giving advice or having expectations in DF). If you've kept up with my posts, as well as the quote I was replying to, it's astonishing to see how people are disagreeing with the very idea of wanting people to understand the basics of the game (that, or they lump it in the same category of having high expectations, or any at all).

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>A performs poorly
>B gives A suggestions
>A Wants to play how he wants to play
>C Doesn't want A to be a burden on the party intentionally
>D Feels that no one should be held accountable for their performance
>Z Jumps in and says that people shouldn't expect people to be playing at top tier in a DF run
>1 wants people like A to at the very least put in basic understanding
>Z sees 1's request as the aforementioned top tier playing expectation

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This is more or less what I keep seeing in these sort of discussions; So much of the argument comes from both sides taking their/the opposite perspective to the extreme and missing the context entirely. What was previously an exception in my typical DF run is starting to become more and more frequent.

That literally describes the vast DF playerbase you run into, well done! Though we always kick X when they go on trolling and cursing everyone else like theyre possessed by some finger-tourettes demon

I'd like something like this, dungeons are so easy to steamroll I think this game needs some sort of incentive to keep doing them other than for capping tomes... I think it would be good that the game gave you a reason to perform well on your job (atm the difference between mastering a job and using 2 spells in 90% of the content of this game makes like...no difference).
Not sure how it could be done though without people perceiving it as "community split" and "toxicity" though.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I've already said that I'm not advocating on something like this; pushing away the problem won't solve it. However, the design of the content essentially allows for it, combine that with apathetic people who don't care or even encourage it (indirectly or not, such as telling people to stop giving advice or having expectations in DF). If you've kept up with my posts, as well as the quote I was replying to, it's astonishing to see how people are disagreeing with the very idea of wanting people to understand the basics of the game (that, or they lump it in the same category of having high expectations, or any at all).

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The design of content in this game is fine. It's the systems around it that fail it.

Our right to play this game how we want and to protect that right is also perfectly fine. That is really the most basic right we all have.

The point everyone misses is that if you want to fix this issue you address the origin of the problem. You don't get caught up in what this topic has become. The origin of this problem has nothing to do with the content. It has nothing to do with player interactions. You go back to before any notion of how we want to play this game is established within our minds and you influence that. It's like Inception -- you have to go deep into their mind, plant an idea at the most basic level, and let it blossom into a result.

And, like I said, that root element is care. You need to change a bad player who doesn't care about improving into a bad player that feels the need to improve. You need to change a good player who doesn't care about helping others into a good player that feels the obligation to help others. Any discussion that actually wants to get anywhere has to provide real solutions aimed at this change.

A grading system can accomplish this. But, this iteration won't. Like I said, this system provides no real reason for a bad player who is content with being bad and playing with other bad players to strive to improve. It also provides no real reason for a good player capable of helping others to actually do so. So long as they do their part and nothing more, they won't have to deal with bad players.

It doesn't build a bridge between the two extremes of players. Rather than force a community to sink or swim together, it deepens the fracture between the extremes by breeding more toxicity at the lower end and fostering even more elitism at the upper end. And, what we'll see is playing out in this topic -- the reasonable moderates just get caught in the whirlpool of conflict between "bads" and "elitists."

well hold on, if an average time completed vs overall time for calculated gear was to come out, with a non lethal(i suck at pvp but i love seeing the stats at the end) or even a collected average time for this duty based on the last x instances of it, were to be added at completion and a top dps by total numbers not average dps etc, maybe that would give people more incentive to improve without saying any words in chat at all.

Youre right about attitude though, and thats why i dont comment in party chat much anymore, its pointless to give suggestions unless asked, or if convo is provoked by another for a means to give them advice but if no one asks, or makes initiative for such advise i leave it be and type "/fc man this run is gonna take forever."

People keep referring to playing this game by any sort of standards as a "right," presumably because they pay a subscription just like everyone else. You playing this game is not a "right" by any stretch of the imagination; it's a privilege. A privilege granted upon yourself because you have the disposable income available to afford it, and SE is kind enough to offer the service to you. With that said, your privilege extends to utilizing other individuals to join your group (and you to join theirs) in order to accomplish a goal that is insurmountable by any of the parts of said group on their own. If you choose to be a faulty cog in the machine that is your group, don't be upset by the probability that you'll soon be replaced by a smoother-turning, less noisy cog.

Plenty of people bring up the whole side of the story that people should "remember that there are people on the other side of the computer" that they're playing with. That goes both ways. Don't be a burden, and expect that others won't be a burden unto you. We're all here to enjoy the game as it's meant to be enjoyed; don't be the one that ruins that enjoyment whether due to your apathy or otherwise. Just, do your part as completely as you're able.

I can't play soccer very good, but still I want to take part in every match available.
But I don't want to train, nor do I want any advice or any strategic/tactic jabbering.
I don't even want to know which position i should play... If I want to go keeper, I just do it and if I decide to do that with my hands tied behind my back you should better live with it.
Everyone who tells me how I should hit the ball to make him go where I want or whoever tells me in what direction I have to play is an elitist!


People in this thread.