CNJ = WHM and THM = BLM

I TOLD YOU SO.

Now that I got that out....Pony up all you smart mouths that wanted to bet gil....Prettypricess comes to mind.

Other thing I don't get, is those of you claiming the lore doesn't match up. You earther have not read all of the lore, or you twist it in your mind as you read it to suit what you want. There is plenty of lore to math CoN as WHM and THM as BLM.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

You see my first paragraph where I use the word probably ?

Don't try to smart, only smart people can do that.

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right completely ignore the fact that your wrong your post was stupid and you made no sense what so ever and call me names... good job trolling...

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Other thing I don't get, is those of you claiming the lore doesn't match up. You earther have not read all of the lore, or you twist it in your mind as you read it to suit what you want. There is plenty of lore to math CoN as WHM and THM as BLM.

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Please provide examples.

Yea, I gotta say, aside from having the actual spell cure, there is nothing in this game that remotely insinuates that CON should be WHM. I mean honestly, the Botanist lore is more in line with being a Whm than CON.

I would love for someone to reference something in the game, besides the spells, that does..

There are threads talking of this for weeks and weeks and threads before that with links to lore references...........if your not campable of finding it yourself, either by going through all your in game info, or by using a search engine for the internet, your out of luck........I am not going to do research for you, grow on your own with a little self discovery of it yourself.

All that aside....I think its pretty funny the way some of you post here how many reasons you think it should be the other way around, or try to say lore this or spells that........Its anounced, its gonna happen....get over it.....

its not so surprising, in the quests for CONJ they kind of sound like priests with the elementals tied in. I don't think its going to be hard for them to retcon a few things to make it fit 100%.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I TOLD YOU SO.

Now that I got that out....Pony up all you smart mouths that wanted to bet gil....Prettypricess comes to mind.

Other thing I don't get, is those of you claiming the lore doesn't match up. You earther have not read all of the lore, or you twist it in your mind as you read it to suit what you want. There is plenty of lore to math CoN as WHM and THM as BLM.

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BS, there is practically NO lore to support THM being BLM. The lore clearly defined CNJ as a BLM, and THM lore fit WHM MUCH more (life/death).. as a matter of fact CNJ lore has nothing at all to do with a WHM. Clearly you have no idea what your talking about. Just because the FFXIV DEV's decided they wanted to go against YEARS of lore and throw mismatching abilities on a game they are trying to salvage... doesn't make it 'right'.

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Originally Posted by Exni

BS, there is practically NO lore to support THM being BLM. The lore clearly defined CNJ as a BLM, and THM lore fit WHM MUCH more (life/death).. as a matter of fact CNJ lore has nothing at all to do with a WHM. Clearly you have no idea what your talking about. Just because the FFXIV DEV's decided they wanted to go against YEARS of lore and throw mismatching abilities on a game they are trying to salvage... doesn't make it 'right'.

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You read all of the THM talk about death, destruction, and assasination references, and claim that doesn't fit into BLM......The speak of revenge, magical wrath, and using there destructive powers in vengance.....and that seems more WHM then BLM to you......Like I said, posters hear only see what they want in the lore, and read it only to suit there needs......

Alot of the CON class quest envolves the Lifemend stump. The conjurers worshiping the stump of the tree of healing .....your right guys, that has nothing to do with WHM....what was I thinking.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

You read all of the THM talk about death, destruction, and assasination references, and claim that doesn't fit into BLM......The speak of revenge, magical wrath, and using there destructive powers in vengance.....and that seems more WHM then BLM to you......Like I said, posters hear only see what they want in the lore, and read it only to suit there needs......

Alot of the CON class quest envolves the Lifemend stump. The conjurers worshiping the stump of the tree of healing .....your right guys, that has nothing to do with WHM....what was I thinking.

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Someone get him a medal, but for real just because con does not have nukes does not mean their spells can not be tied to elements stop trying to say the only thing that defines blm is those ele spells that con has, this is why they are doing skill swaps >.>.

Yeah, having actually done the Thaumaturge class quests now, it's a lot easier to accept as BLM. >_>

(Plus, as I mentioned I -believe- on this thread, there's no guarantee the Thaumaturge story will actually be connected at all to the Black Mage story.)

Well to go off in a different direction. I always saw Conjurer as a Scholar without the Grimoires/Stratagems and Thaumaturge as a Red Mage. XD

I honestly don't care which gets BLM and which gets WHM since I planned to level both to learn all the magic spells.

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Originally Posted by Ganvire

Am I the only one who isn't surprised at this choice? We're talking the difference between a class who excels at curing versus a class that is a sadomasochist in a broad sense of the term.

Unless that's your thing. No judgement here.

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Clearly, I'm the only one who ever thought about off-label uses of traditionally WHM debuffs and spells... :D

Time to level my THM. :)

Any Final Fantasy fan would have been able to tell that's what was going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

There are threads talking of this for weeks and weeks and threads before that with links to lore references...........if your not campable of finding it yourself, either by going through all your in game info, or by using a search engine for the internet, your out of luck........I am not going to do research for you, grow on your own with a little self discovery of it yourself.

All that aside....I think its pretty funny the way some of you post here how many reasons you think it should be the other way around, or try to say lore this or spells that........Its anounced, its gonna happen....get over it.....

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I'm fine with it. I don't agree with it, but I'm ok with it. You have an attitude problem though. You should get over that.

By the way, the only talk on the forums about lore was in favor of THM being WHM, not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Any Final Fantasy fan would have been able to tell that's what was going to happen.

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Wait.. The same Final Fantasy fans that have come to know BLMs as elemental nukers with pointy hats?

The two classes are vague right now, Yoshi even said so from the start. It's why we needed the concrete answer we finally got.

THM leaned towards WHM more than CNJ and CNJ leaned towards BLM more than THM but neither classes seem proper fits for those specialized roles.

Like someone else said, THM seems more of a Red Mage and CNJ seems more like a Scholar. But hey, we aren't up to combo jobs yet.

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

Wait.. The same Final Fantasy fans that have come to know BLMs as elemental nukers with pointy hats?

The two classes are vague right now, Yoshi even said so from the start. It's why we needed the concrete answer we finally got.

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Yeah the abilities are very spread out. That's because of the previous dev teams ideas. However if one were to really think about it THM looks a lot more like a BLM than CNJ does. Also CNJ gets Cure.

So my guess is that in 1.20 some of the abilities that CNJ has now (mainly the elemental nuke spells) may be taken away and be replaced with more of a light based set of spells.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Other thing I don't get, is those of you claiming the lore doesn't match up. You earther have not read all of the lore, or you twist it in your mind as you read it to suit what you want. There is plenty of lore to math CoN as WHM and THM as BLM.

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The thing is that WHM and BLM lore =/= CNJ and THM lore.

Yoshida has given an example of how jobs will have their own quests and stories (namely a dragoon quest that has something to do with "the great dragoon of Ishgard" (OMG Lancer lore has nothing to do with Dragoons from Ishgard, it doesn't fit!!)) and these stories/lore don't necessarily have to have anything to do with the classes that are required to unlock the quests.

Basically it doesn't matter what the established lore with CNJ and THM are, because BLM and WHM lore will likely treat them as entirely different classes (similar to the drg lore).

As far as class builds, CNJ leans more toward WHM than THM in regards to skills. It's puzzling how THM leans toward BLM in any way, but I feel like CNJ was a given after the 1.18 skill balancing and adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Yeah the abilities are very spread out. That's because of the previous dev teams ideas. However if one were to really think about it THM looks a lot more like a BLM than CNJ does. Also CNJ gets Cure.

So my guess is that in 1.20 some of the abilities that CNJ has now (mainly the elemental nuke spells) may be taken away and be replaced with more of a light based set of spells.

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Yes, there's evidence in both directions. That's what makes it vague, and why changes are needed.

It shouldn't be hard to see why someone could see one way or the other if one were to actually look closely at both sides of the argument.

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

It shouldn't be hard to see why someone could see one way or the other if one were to actually look closely at both sides of the argument.

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This is totally true. You really could build a good argument for either.

What I really would like to see though is a complete change of the classes because it is going to be very confusing for new players. We will see what SE has in store. I doubt they are just going to paste on the jobs without a good explanation as to why they can unlock what they can unlock.

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Originally Posted by Exni

BS, there is practically NO lore to support THM being BLM. The lore clearly defined CNJ as a BLM, and THM lore fit WHM MUCH more (life/death).. as a matter of fact CNJ lore has nothing at all to do with a WHM. Clearly you have no idea what your talking about. Just because the FFXIV DEV's decided they wanted to go against YEARS of lore and throw mismatching abilities on a game they are trying to salvage... doesn't make it 'right'.

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Not to mention, I love the way a guy here with a level 12 con and 0 lvl THM claims to know jack about lore........crawl back under your bridge troll.

Protip: Black Mage DOES NOT mean elementalist.

Once you get rid of that mindset, the relationships are easy to see. If you play through the CONJ and THM story quests, you'll see that the conj are essentially elemental worshiping priests, while the thm are more.... hitman-esque.

After 1.18 you should have known which job each was getting.

If you didn't realize, then that's either ignorance or reading to heavily into "lore". Despite what the lore says, the developers have the final say.

It was clear the direction they were taking these classes after the buff / nerfs. At least in my opinion. I'm not a lore nut and I'm just going based on playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Protip: Black Mage DOES NOT mean elementalist.

Once you get rid of that mindset, the relationships are easy to see. If you play through the CONJ and THM story quests, you'll see that the conj are essentially elemental worshiping priests, while the thm are more.... hitman-esque.

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No, but it does mean nuker and, in FF games, nukes are elemental.

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Originally Posted by RemVye

After 1.18 you should have known which job each was getting.

If you didn't realize, then that's either ignorance or reading to heavily into "lore". Despite what the lore says, the developers have the final say.

It was clear the direction they were taking these classes after the buff / nerfs. At least in my opinion. I'm not a lore nut and I'm just going based on playing the game.

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We know this, at least I do and anyone that looks at my post history will see I was arguing with people on these forums then that THM was gonna be BLM. I beat my head against the wall arguing that. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or like it.

It's their game, their call. I've said that from the beginning.

Told you so.

Nukes are elemental?

Scourge = water/stone/ice

Banich = fire/wind/lightening

whats more elemetal then having 3 elements in 1?

What gets me though is that you want to sit here and say 1 set of elemental spells is more BLM then all the WHM buffs and C-U-R-E - I - II - II.....C-U-R-A-G-A - I - II are to WHM......

Again, I say, you twist it and only notice what fits the view you desire to portray.

Who cares. Con is whyt magi and Thumb is block maji. No reason to debate.

/caseclosed

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Nukes are elemental?

Scourge = water/stone/ice

Banich = fire/wind/lightening

whats more elemetal then having 3 elements in 1?

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Having all elements separate?

http://barrykade.files.wordpress.com...completely.jpg

THM 22! I'm rolling through these levels. (- -);

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Nukes are elemental?

Scourge = water/stone/ice

Banich = fire/wind/lightening

whats more elemetal then having 3 elements in 1?

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This is like saying what is more colorful than black?

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Originally Posted by Coglin

What gets me though is that you want to sit here and say 1 set of elemental spells is more BLM then all the WHM buffs and C-U-R-E - I - II - II.....C-U-R-A-G-A - I - II are to WHM......

Again, I say, you twist it and only notice what fits the view you desire to portray.

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You're doing exactly what you say I am.

Even if we don't count higher tiers, currently CNJ has: Fire, Water, Aero, Stone, Thunder, Ice, Burn, Choke, Rasp, Drown, Frost, Shock, Flare, Freeze, Tornado, Quake, Burst, Flood, Shock Spikes, and Sleep.

The white mage spells: Cure, Curaga, Protect, Shell, Stoneskin, Paralyna, Silena, Poisona.

That's 8 WHM spells compared to 20 BLM spells. I'm not twisting anything, the facts are right there.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

This is like saying what is more colorful than black?

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wha...wait.....huh.....?????

So are you denying that Scourge = water/stone/ice and Banich = fire/wind/lightening ?

or agreeing that I am correct?

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Originally Posted by Coglin

wha...wait.....huh.....?????

So are you denying that Scourge = water/stone/ice and Banich = fire/wind/lightening ?

or agreeing that I am correct?

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He's saying that mixing the elements together to make umbral and calling it more "elemental" is like mixing the colors together to make black and calling it more "colorful."

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

I hope they swap AOE styles between classes.

The circular AOE of Con in my opinion is better suited for nukes and on target spells

The cone AOE that targets everything between you and your selected target makes it easier to cover your allies.

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-This

Amen...

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

He's saying that mixing the elements together to make umbral and calling it more "elemental" is like mixing the colors together to make black and calling it more "colorful."

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And I am saying, whats that got to do with anything ?

They are either elemental or not.

Its like he just either can't let it go and just accept that CON=WHM / THM=BLM......or he thinks the more he post argueing with those of us that it makes sense to, that we will either see it his way, or the devs will see it his way and change it.......Of those option, none of them make sense.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

And I am saying, whats that got to do with anything ?

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Um, because it's refuting your point? I think that alone makes it relevant, no?

Lol I knew they would do the stupid one! LOL

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

Um, because it's refuting your point? I think that alone makes it relevant, no?

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There is probably zero point in trying to explain it to him.

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Originally Posted by Inaaca

Um, because it's refuting your point? I think that alone makes it relevant, no?

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So your agreeing that Scourge and banish are elmental based or claiming they are not ?

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Originally Posted by Wynn

There is probably zero point in trying to explain it to him.

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wai......t......wha.....t.......huh? so I need it explained to me? I thought I was the one who understood that CON=WHM.....THM=BLM...............and you are the one who is argueing and not accepting it.

What some one is not getting my friend is that everyone but a very select few like yourself understand CON=WHM.....THM=BLM......Yet your the one here argueing it........Thuth be told, its more likely that there is zero point trying to explain it to you.

I mean its not like its a debate...its factual that CON=WHM.....THM=BLM......so why do you keep debating the fact?

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Originally Posted by ellohwell

Lol I knew they would do the stupid one! LOL

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Step away from my thread, troll queen.

@Coglin: You said that them being tri-elemental makes them more elemental, they're saying that mixing three colors together doesn't make something more colorful. Nobody has to agree if they're based on elements, because it's a given. They're just saying that your point is moot.

But please. There's no reason for debate. At all. It is what it is.