is selling housing bannable?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Keeping it isn't an alternative?

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Selling it isn't.

I already said keeping it's fine.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Selling it isn't.

I already said keeping it's fine.

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Well that's the alternative I was talking about. Keeping it. I'm fine with keeping it. But it definitely doesn't mean more houses are available.

If you want to keep it, it's perfectly fine, though. You paid for it, you have every right to keep it if you want. That's entirely up to you.

The thing we're discussing/denouncing here is the reselling of plots (see title?) so that's what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Well that's the alternative I was talking about. Keeping it.

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Then your post misquoted what you were responding about. As written, your "Well that's the alternative they've given us" referred to Zelas's "Trying to bribe someone into giving you back the money you spent for it"

And I was talking about this:

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Which you could otherwise get for only one of the fees if they were being honest and just let it go as they should.

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Just because someone is being honest doesn't mean you're going to get the house for only one fee. It can mean you're not going to get the house at all.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Then your post misquoted what you were responding about. As written, your "Well that's the alternative they've given us" referred to Zelas's "Trying to bribe someone into giving you back the money you spent for it"

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Keeping it, no. Trying to bribe someone into giving you back the money you spent for it is.

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That's what I quoted, emphasis mine. That was the whole post when I quoted it. I was replying to the whole post.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Just because someone is being honest doesn't mean you're going to get the house for only one fee. It can mean you're not going to get the house at all.

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But if someone is giving up a house they no longer want (which was the scenario being discussed there), then the honest way to do that is simply to release the plot. If instead it's a house you want to keep, then the situation doesn't even come up.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But if someone is giving up a house they no longer want (which was the scenario being discussed there), then the honest way to do that is simply to release the plot. If instead it's a house you want to keep, then the situation doesn't even come up.

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I no longer want it, but I can still make use of it. My options are: Give it up for free, or keep it and keep using it. The situation does come up. The only reason I'm keeping it is because I have no method of selling it.

Just because I don't want it doesn't mean it's worthless to me.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Again, similar but not entirely the same.
I don't condone selling runs, because I think it's a pretty stupid practice and promotes laziness, but at least, there, they're selling something. The person actually GETS the kill/drop/whatever, and if they don't, they have sufficient evidence they got double-crossed (through screenshots, chatlogs, etc.).

For housing, you're not paying the player for anything at all other than a sort of bribe ("I'm holding this house hostage until you give me back the money I paid for it."). You're technically being asked to pay for the seller's purchase (or sometimes, several times their purchase) on top of your own. You pay for THEIR past entertainment/use of the house, and then buy the house AGAIN for yourself. Which you could otherwise get for only one of the fees if they were being honest and just let it go as they should.

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It's closer to scalping than bribery. And if you are selling your relinquishment of the plot at the time of the buyer's choosing, they would also "have sufficient evidence they got double-crossed (through screenshots, chatlogs, etc.)." Playing the MB would be bribery by your definition.

Off MB sales over 1M are the same way, the person could take your 20M, 1M at a time, then not give you the item on the last trade. Fraud is fraud, following through on an agreement isn't fraud.

Run/pony sales are closer to bribery than house flipping, you pay the group to do something for you and to pass on the drop(s).

Player casinos aren't against the ToS, but people have been given warnings for spamming chat with them.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

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Well, English isn't my first language, so I don't know all the fancy words. But I'm sure you catch my drift.
Also, depending on how it's done, runs/pony sale is closer to paying for a service than anything. It's something one can do themselves with time and practice, but that they think is faster/easier if they ask someone more experienced to help them with it.

No matter how you look at it, house flipping is a blatant rip-off. They know you cannot otherwise get what you want, so they try to profit from it. So in that sense, it's worse.

I do get what you mean, though, and I agree with some parts. But that hardly makes the house reselling any more justifiable, imo.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Most people recognize that housing really is/should be a one per player kind of thing

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Sorry I must have missed that survey.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

offer account holders with multiple personal homes/plots a choice of which one they can keep, then compensate them with the purchase price of the plots being relinquished.

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What about their items in the house though? Yes they could go to the Resident Caretaker for 35 days like when a house is demolished and that person could somehow try and find all the inventory space to hold them all (200 items for a large!), but what are they to do with them then? Their other house is probably already furnished and SE are unlikely to give back items that aren't binded and could be sold on. So essentially a lot of items that person has to find storage space for, indefinitely, or discard. Even worse if they currently have multiple houses on their account they'd need to find even more space.

But worse... what about the unremovable items? Should they just get lost? And what about decorations you can't get back like light fixtures, floor and walls? What about the exteriors that have been crafted in a workshop? None of those are removable and some like the workshop creations are a lot of parts and take a lot of time and effort. I know this from making an exterior for a small house, I can't imagine the effort needed for a large.

Yes SE could give back the exact items so someone could reuse them, but if you don't have multiple houses you're unlikely to want to reuse them and if you can't see them... giving back the items doesn't compensate the person for the time they put in to decorate the house.

Right now someone is allowed to buy up to 16 houses per Square Enix service account. Whether the community likes it or not, that was how SE set it up so the player shouldn't get massively penalised because SE later changed their minds. Square Enix aren't going to force houses away from someone, other than by updating the system for newer accounts and grandfathering older ones (i.e. if a house is reclaimed that account can't buy another one unless below the limit etc) and I can't really see them doing that either as people would just complain it's unfair that someone has more than they do and they can no longer even have a chance to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Further, explicitly limit FC housing to one house per FC.

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That actually is already the case. What you're seeing with one FC having multiple houses is actually multiple FCs, all having been levelled up to rank 6, but all having the same short name (the long name has to be unique, the short name/tag can be the same as another one).

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Implement a transfer system so that if you decide to move house and purchase an equivalent plot elsewhere, you can transfer your entire home, lock, stock and barrel for a nominal fee.

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The moving system is planned for some time after 3.4, but we know how much after and we also don't yet know whether that'll let us transfer things like airship progress or just automated buying/relinquishing. It's very unlikely to move furniture automatically though, unless you were moving to the same size house it wouldn't even fit the same way.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I can't see the tiny minority of players who are in that situation screaming too loudly

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Probably because most players don't use the forums? :D

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, limiting *personal* housing to one per account is reasonable.

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And I don't disagree with you, but it's much too late now.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It's closer to scalping than bribery.

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And most places don't allow scalping either.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Player casinos aren't against the ToS, but people have been given warnings for spamming chat with them.

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Well, gambling is specifically mentioned under Prohibited Activities:

3.6 Any Illegal Activities. You may not conduct any illegal activities whatsoever in connection with the Game. This includes every illegal activity not specifically highlighted above, including without limitation gambling, defamation, harassment, and fraud.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

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casino's aren't against ToS as taru said.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

And most places don't allow scalping either.

Well, gambling is specifically mentioned under Prohibited Activities:

3.6 Any Illegal Activities. You may not conduct any illegal activities whatsoever in connection with the Game. This includes every illegal activity not specifically highlighted above, including without limitation gambling, defamation, harassment, and fraud.

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The problem with that is you are scalping/gambling with something of no monetary value for something of no monetary value. It's like playing poker with chips given to you, and not receiving any cash for how well you do.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Also, depending on how it's done, runs/pony sale is closer to paying for a service than anything. It's something one can do themselves with time and practice, but that they think is faster/easier if they ask someone more experienced to help them with it.

No matter how you look at it, house flipping is a blatant rip-off. They know you cannot otherwise get what you want, so they try to profit from it. So in that sense, it's worse.

I do get what you mean, though, and I agree. But that hardly makes the house reselling any more justifiable, imo.

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It's getting a payment for your time and gil spent, and being in the right place at the right time.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It's getting a payment for your time and gil spent, and being in the right place at the right time.

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No, it absolutely isn't. And the fact you're entertaining the idea that it's okay to think someone's entitled to extra money for their "time and gil spent" (as you call it) is baffling to me. No matter how you put it, it's a dishonest practice. Your attempt at justifying it doesn't make it any more honest.
It's simple. If you want a house, you buy it, you use it, then you dispose of it. Housing resale isn't programmed into the game. Housing isn't an item. It's not craftable or farmable, and it's not meant to be resold after the initial purchase. Doing so is 100% exploiting.

If you want to buy things and resell them higher, go back to the Market Board.

I remember an individual on my server who had been reported of scamming people out of large sums of money through the whole /random higher or lower game, apparently this individual even streamed when she was doing this to twitch.

I mean ultimately it was the other players fault for agreeing to betting 200k+ in gil and handing it over before the game began and then them getting extremely angry when they didn't win.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

No matter how you put it, it's a dishonest practice. Your attempt at justifying it doesn't make it any more honest.
It's simple. If you want a house, you buy it, you use it, then you dispose of it. Housing resale isn't programmed into the game. Housing isn't an item. It's not craftable or farmable, and it's not meant to be resold after the initial purchase. Doing so is 100% exploiting.

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You calling it dishonest doesn't make it that way.

You don't like it, so you equate it to immorality. It's the same argument used against capitalism.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You calling it dishonest doesn't make it that way.

You don't like it, so you equate it to immorality. It's the same argument used against capitalism.

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Your condoning it doesn't make it right either.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Your condoning it doesn't make it right either.

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...both of you are right....it's an opinion...(with the idea of it being good/bad)

It's not bannable. I can confirm this with my FC situation.

We wanted a large. We actually struck a good deal with someone to get their plot. We had to call a GM because two people were camping the plot to try and steal it from us the second it gets free. GM did come to help with situation, but the guys grew bored of waiting and left already. We clearly stated in the ticket we were buying the house from another, yet no punish and no warning. Hell, the GM took screenshots with us in front of our new house.

How many live letters and events have the FF14 team done since Christmas? Glad to see ignore and hope it goes away policy is still in affect for housing. Is it so hard in six months to make official stance?

I am going to go out on a limb and say the whole player base says housing is a horrible system (deleted bad words I wanted to type). Anyone who has stayed has accepted that this is the punishment (system) we are going to get. They are doubling down on the broken housing wards. They can at least for an appropriate response to all current situations that have been brought forward.

Bannable. Not bannable. I really do not care. All I know is that crap like house selling is why I keep getting /tells from gold sellers.

People sell houses all the time and do not get banned. So the act of selling houses I would say is not banable. No different then selling runs. You can sell whole free companies for gil technically.

The act of buying houses to prevent others from getting them unless they pay insane prices, it is more or less impacting others ability to play the game and that is banable per the tos.

So it depends on the intent. If someone buys a house... then immediately trys to sell then I would say they are at risk of getting banned. If someone has a house then trys sells it months down the line. I do not see anything ever happening to that person.

AS for the people buying all the houses to just resell... yes that should be bannable. But the act of selling a house itself should not be bannable.

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Originally Posted by Khanscott

Bannable. Not bannable. I really do not care. All I know is that crap like house selling is why I keep getting /tells from gold sellers.

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And you're going to keep getting them as long as gil exists, or until they make it completely worthless.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

It's not bannable. I can confirm this with my FC situation.

We wanted a large. We actually struck a good deal with someone to get their plot. We had to call a GM because two people were camping the plot to try and steal it from us the second it gets free. GM did come to help with situation, but the guys grew bored of waiting and left already. We clearly stated in the ticket we were buying the house from another, yet no punish and no warning. Hell, the GM took screenshots with us in front of our new house.

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In this case the GM should not have taken any action because they can't steal a plot that never belonged to you. You gave payment to have someone relinquish the plot, opening the plot up for everyone. Only when you purchased the plot via the placard could they have had any opportunity to steal it from you (which I don't see as possible without them being part of your fc and permissions changing hands due to an absence of the fc leader and probably wouldn't count as stealing anyway). It was nice of them to show up though, but I'm wondering how it would have played out had the other players stuck around.

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Originally Posted by papichulo123

if it is why are people still doing it?

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Is using 3rd party tools parsing game data is bannable?
If it is why are people still using it?

And why the top RAIDER using it and YoshiP still loves them so much?
So I got the conclusion, the answer for your question is trying to be the top TRADER ^^;

Rule: use it as your own risk, don't tell others, officially disallowed and unofficially allowed.

I think it's a case by case thing.

If someone were to say, sell their house because they didn't desire a house anymore, were planning on quitting, or their friend/significant other/FC got a (usually larger) house than the one they have, so they wanted to sell and get some of their money back. I think they're allowed to do so without getting in trouble.

However, buying up multiple houses (especially on the same account) and then sell them at a very high cost just to make Gil I'm pretty sure is the one that people get in trouble for. Since this is what happened when they added subdivisions and when the first 45-day auto demolition thing.

I'm not 100% sure. I've never bought or sold a house. The house I have now I got when I inherited my FC so I have had no need (or the money) to ever get involved in the housing market. But I'm almost positive there is a line that can be crossed where it goes from being "we don't like it, but we'll look the other way" to being "you're in trouble for doing this".

I think the best way to stop flipping a house is have an option to sell the plot back to SE for purchase price or abandon the plot. SE takes control of the plot either way and uses some type of rng timer over 7 to 14 days for when the plot will randomly come back up for sale. The randomness would prevent flipping cause you can't sell a plot to a person with the certainty they would want to get it. Either way, sell to SE to remove profit and flipping will stop.

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Originally Posted by Millen1

I think the best way to stop flipping a house is have an option to sell the plot back to SE for purchase price or abandon the plot. SE takes control of the plot either way and uses some type of rng timer over 7 to 14 days for when the plot will randomly come back up for sale. The randomness would prevent flipping cause you can't sell a plot to a person with the certainty they would want to get it. Either way, sell to SE to remove profit and flipping will stop.

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I actually really like this idea.

hey i have been seeing people selling houses in pf but how exactly do i report?

Honestly, just leave it alone. If a GM sees it, they see it. Let them take care of it if they so choose. There's a tremendous amount of things to do in Eorzea - don't waste time submitting report forms unless you've been personally affected by an action (e.g. harassment).

I'm not advocating that people who are flipping houses go unpunished, I'm more so calling out the fact that if it is indeed a bannable/suspendable offence, the GM's likely have a Party Finder window just as we do and will take action if it's demanded precedence according to the roles/responsibilities outlined in their job description.

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Originally Posted by Greydor

Honestly, just leave it alone. If a GM sees it, they see it. Let them take care of it if they so choose. There's a tremendous amount of things to do in Eorzea - don't waste time submitting report forms unless you've been personally affected by an action (e.g. harassment).

I'm not advocating that people who are flipping houses go unpunished, I'm more so calling out the fact that if it is indeed a bannable/suspendable offence, the GM's likely have a Party Finder window just as we do and will take action if it's demanded precedence according to the roles/responsibilities outlined in their job description.

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Just leave it alone. What, are you a GM tired of all the reports you've been getting? No? Then let them do their job. Don't worry about what other players are reporting.

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Originally Posted by Greydor

the GM's likely have a Party Finder window just as we do and will take action if it's demanded precedence according to the roles/responsibilities outlined in their job description.

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If they do I don't think it always works very well... when I see one in there advertising a house it's only got <15 minutes left so it's already been there at least 45 minutes and there's usually only 3 or 4 other parties so it stands out pretty clearly.

Do I report them? No, mainly because I can't be bothered/it's too much clicking, but I get the feeling SE don't do anything about them either unless reported so perhaps I should put in more effort/not be so lazy...

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

If they do I don't think it always works very well... when I see one in there advertising a house it's only got <15 minutes left so it's already been there at least 45 minutes and there's usually only 3 or 4 other parties so it stands out pretty clearly.

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That just indicates that bannable offense or not, players flipping houses are not a high priority for GMs to proactively handle. It won't be priority until players make it a priority. The first step in doing that is to flood them with complaints.

GM calls cost SE money. Industry standard is between $3 to $7 USD per issue handled. Enough of those can affect someone's bottom line, and will garner their attention faster than 1 million treads in this forum.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

It's not bannable. I can confirm this with my FC situation.

We wanted a large. We actually struck a good deal with someone to get their plot. We had to call a GM because two people were camping the plot to try and steal it from us the second it gets free. GM did come to help with situation, but the guys grew bored of waiting and left already. We clearly stated in the ticket we were buying the house from another, yet no punish and no warning. Hell, the GM took screenshots with us in front of our new house.

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The GM should not have stepped in to help at all. The 2 other people happened to be in the right place at the right time and had an equal right to aim for the plot. Plots are not tradeable and hence you can't buy a plot from another player. Just because you gift money to another player doesn't mean other players aren't allowed to get a plot by buying it from the game. This is not stealing, it is a supported and intended mechanic to obtain housing.

Selling a house may not be bannable but it should certainly not be a supported action due to how ambiguous these kind of situations can be. What if the outsiders didn't know you had a deal going on? They would just see a house and get it in a way that they are supposed to. What then happens to the money? Another scenario, the 2 others are the buyer's friends and pretend to snatch the plot. The buyer then calls a GM to get his/her gil back, leaving the seller empty handed. What if the outsiders are friends of the seller? Seller gets money, releases the plot and the other 2 trade-spam the buyer and snatch the plot for the purpose of "selling" it again. Seller claims innocence.

The GM's are incapable of solving a he-said-she-said situation fairly because of how many types of abuse can be involved. They should absolutely not get involved in black-market sales like these. If they do allow players to practice house selling/buying it should be at the players' own risk.

why would it be bannable i dont understand its in game item/merch why would they care it doesnt break the game or anything

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Originally Posted by TacoBell

why would it be bannable i dont understand its in game item/merch why would they care it doesnt break the game or anything

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No, actually it's not an in game item. It's a feature of the game. You're not selling it, just selling insider information about when it will be available to buy. The purchaser buys the plot from the game itself, not from the so-called "seller".

I don't buy house. i wait for the system to change. people wait for new plot to buy as many and make money 2x - 3x the price. but the fact is i don't trust seller you could get scam easely you buy the plot. he release it but he don't sell the plot to you but release it anybody can buy it before you. so what is he got a friend waiting to snap it. and BANG you lose it and the guy who sold it say to : "it's not my fault you were to slow no refund". but you don't know the guy who bought it. is really his friend and they share to cash.And they do the same scam on the other side. so good selling systems you think?? for me NO. I use my FC house for now. I will never give money to those scammer

yes selling housing is against the sytem report those bad people

It has been confirmed that Square Enix doesn't stand for the reselling of plots, and Yoshida personally asked anyone who sees it to report it so they can investigate and take action.

So yeah, we don't know if it's bannable, but it's definitely punishable.

Yoshida specifically said selling it for "exorbitant costs" more than a few times, so as long as you're selling the plot for the amount you bought it for or slightly more you should be fine. I'd guess the intention for selling it would play a part also, planning to take an indefinite break? Sell it. If you bought it for the sole purpose of reselling, even for a small profit of a million gil I figure action will be taken.