DRK tanking. A little bit of pain.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Can you think of other ways to better define DRK?

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EXPAND YOUR CLOSED VIEW ON WHAT A DARK KNIGHT CAN BE

No really, if you take a minute you'll realize that dark knights, in one form or another have:

Health draining
Mana draining
Debuffing
Darkness themed abilities
The ability to become a zombie
The ability to focus our inner darkness
Use our own "lifeforce" to augment our abilities.

"Aether refers to the energy found throughout the world of Hydaelyn in Final Fantasy XIV. It is source of both magic and life, and any disruption in the aetherial flow is either the cause or indicator of catastrophic events, as evidenced by the Umbral Eras." - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Aether

But no.

You're right. Dark Knight has nothing in common with how dark knights are in other games.

You've listed assets that all tanks have with the exception "becoming a zombie" which isn't really accurate. "Mana draining" I don't get. You mean skills that cost mana? PLD have that as well, even warriors do with cross class. Or do you mean skills that drain mana from others? DRK have mana regeneration skills but not mana draining skills. As for dark themes, I'd rather have dark abilities. You can paint a horse black and name it shadow, but it's still a horse. Meaning I'd like to see abilities that are more than just themed.
As for aether life force, I get where you're coming from but what separates Drk from any other class in that case? Also, you don't die if you run out of mana.

DP costing MP is fine, but the class could stand to have it's MP costs reduced across the board.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

As for aether life force, I get where you're coming from but what separates Drk from any other class in that case? Also, you don't die if you run out of mana.

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It's disheartening that you completely missed the point of that post in this reply. You have an incredibly closed-minded view of what Dark Knight is and any possible alterations to that are just bastardizations of something you enjoy. That's why you take issue with the design. It doesn't mean it's poor design - it doesn't even mean the design is inconsistent with lore. It just means that YOU cannot accept that the Job deviates from older versions of Dark Knight on an implementation level.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

DP costing MP is fine, but the class could stand to have it's MP costs reduced across the board.

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This just... I don't even. The Job is incredibly well-balanced as it is. Mana cost reduction would have to go hand-in-hand with potency reduction, else you'd be hitting too many DA+SE and be pushing numbers far too high compared to what you should be hitting... And DRK already requires an incredible amount of button presses in order to play optimally. Why would you want to inject even more frequent presses of ogcd skills?

The only logic behind this argument comes into play when you're using Mana for DA+SE, DP, DA+CnS AND DA+DM/DA+DD. Yes. Assuming you /need to/ use ALL of that, you want a reduction of cost. However, no one who's min-maxing an encounter makes use of DA+DM and DA+DD in any reasonably consistent manner so as to warrant such a decrease in costs. All it would do is widen the gap between people who cling to the "I'm a Tank first" mentality and those who seek to maximize their utility to the group in every way possible - including DPS output.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

DP costing MP is fine, but the class could stand to have it's MP costs reduced across the board.

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Maybe they could consider splitting the cost between mana and health, or make dark arts cost health instead of a chunk of mana. Either way would reduce mana cost ☺

well they did reduce the mp drain from DS from pvp, maybe thats all theyd need to do to fine tune that part? i dunno if that would suffice, im sure it wouldnt hurt.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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Disagree, reducing the MP cost wouldn't require decrease of potencies in my opinion and actually more DA+SE is exactly what I want or rather more DA is what I want. Not so much because I think Drk needs a DPS buff, my reason for wanting the MP cost decrease of DA and maybe DS is different, allow me to explain. I legitimately enjoy the concept of DA, a burst of dark power to enhance our skills and increase the power of various moves in our arsenal, it's awesome, I really enjoy it. I just wish I could use DA more without having to worry about bottoming out because I think my character looks awesome when he gets that burst of energy and crits an SE for some nice damage, it *feels* awesome to do that. That's why I want reduced cost on DA, I'd personally like to use the move more because I love the flavor/concept of it. Personal opinion obviously.

More oGCD's doesn't bother me in the least, I'd rather see DA just take less of a chunk out of our MP so I can use it to enhance more moves. Also, I do think that the reduced DS mana cost in PVP should just be baseline across the board. Not that I have any difficulty managing my MP as drk, lower MP cost on DS is more of a QoL change and it would be nice but I can get by without it.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Maybe they could consider splitting the cost between mana and health, or make dark arts cost health instead of a chunk of mana. Either way would reduce mana cost ☺

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Drk was my main in FFXI, my favorite class in fact. I got pretty good at knowing when to burn HP for damage, but I don't think that concept would necessarily work as a tank in this game. For drk they opted to have it use MP to fuel moves instead of HP which is fine, but I'd rather have the various moves that require MP take smaller chunks of MP at a time, if you go overboard it's very easy to bottom yourself but if you learn to manage when to burn your MP and when to replenish it I think it would be fun. I DO think Drk needs a move in the vein of DA (a move that costs a large chunk of MP to burn excess) but I feel it should be an offensive move or defensive buff rather than a modifier type move.

Maybe DA has such a high cost because it has such an impressive effect and clever management of mp so you can use this more often is......idk...... central to the dark knights play style.


But that might be my personal opinion because I've never had an issue as mt or ot with bottoming out in alexander savage.

But reducing the mp costs of DA or darkside WILL increase the safety of dark knight and shrink the gap b between good and bad drks.
It will increase their dps and defense without any drawback. Currently Drk can do 3 DA boosts without bottoming out with no mp regen.
As costs go down, drk potency/time will increase.
Dark doesn't need that. At all.

But I'll give a similar example.

I like using fell cleave. It makes me feel great. Using fell cleave more often would be a QoL change to warrior.
Fell cleave should be usable at 3 or 4 stacks of wrath but it won't be a dps increase.

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Originally Posted by Violette

I like using fell cleave. It makes me feel great. Using fell cleave more often would be a QoL change to warrior.
Fell cleave should be usable at 3 or 4 stacks of wrath but it won't be a dps increase.

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you know i never understood why all moves had to require 5 stacks when levelling war, ill humor you since its funny how every other combo you can safely DA a souleater, or something, its sort of like making it so drk acts like it has wrath stacks, or else you run dry.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

you know i never understood why all moves had to require 5 stacks when levelling war, ill humor you since its funny how every other combo you can safely DA a souleater, or something, its sort of like making it so drk acts like it has wrath stacks, or else you run dry.

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Because 4 was too easy and 6 took too long.

Though I'm glad i made you laugh.

A more empowering solution would be to expand MP recovery techniques, not reducing MP consumption. Aetherflow, Infuriate, Blood of the Dragon, Reload. Resource refreshes on 60 second timers are routinely available on other jobs, oddly DRK is limited to Blood Price/Weapon and Syphon Strike.

To the original topic, if you want HP sinks, why not first look at Blood Price? After all, that is the closest premise for a HP-for-MPAction use ability in DRKs kit. SE made a deliberate choice in making Blood Weapon return a static MP amount not based on damage delivered (ie Bloodbath's percent of damage inflicted), and Blood Price return the same static amount of MP also not based on damage received (Bloodbath + Vengeance, for example).

It's hard to imagine SE shifting gears on design after such obvious intentions; also by virtue of being a tank, I wouldn't want it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

A more empowering solution would be to expand MP recovery techniques, not reducing MP consumption. Aetherflow, Infuriate, Blood of the Dragon, Reload. Resource refreshes on 60 second timers are routinely available on other jobs, oddly DRK is limited to Blood Price/Weapon and Syphon Strike.

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That would be perfectly acceptable to me as well.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Disagree, reducing the MP cost wouldn't require decrease of potencies in my opinion and actually more DA+SE is exactly what I want or rather more DA is what I want.

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See, but the problem with that line of logic is that more frequent use of DA+SE due to reduction of Mana costs directly causes an increase in DPS output for Dark Knight, which is already in a perfect spot. It's slightly higher than PLD and slightly lower than WAR - arguably comparable to WAR if given the same preferential treatment. Increasing that would unbalance the tanks. If you decrease Mana costs you MUST decrease potencies alongside it to maintain Job balance.

It's a valid reason for why Mana cost reduction is a good idea, and I don't disagree with you at all, but this statement I quoted is flat out ignoring the issue that reduced Mana costs creates.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

A more empowering solution would be to expand MP recovery techniques, not reducing MP consumption. Aetherflow, Infuriate, Blood of the Dragon, Reload. Resource refreshes on 60 second timers are routinely available on other jobs, oddly DRK is limited to Blood Price/Weapon and Syphon Strike.

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But Blood Price is a reliable Mana sustain on a 40s timer in any boss encounter while tanking and Blood Weapon is similarly reliable on a 45s timer. Both are more effective. Both are more effective than a resource refresh.

In a boss encounter, used properly, Blood Price will get you at minimum 5 procs which is (unsurprisingly) 1765 Mana out of the 1768 cost for Dark Arts.
Blood Weapon will always net you seven GCDs at normal SKS levels - 1841 Mana not even counting any ogcd attacks or AA's (AA's will be ~6, so 3419)
...and then counting ogcds could be as high as +3 more procs of it (could even be 4-5, but 3 is Plunge+LB+CnS) = 4208 Mana ~4.7 SS hits - ~2.3 casts of DA.



However: Yes, I would /love/ for Sole Survivor (or something else) to be altered into a 2-minute cooldown with the sole purpose of refreshing your Mana in one quick shot. That would make it useful in ALL situations, rather than being situationally useful. I don't think Dark Knight NEEDS this change, by any stretch, but it's definitely the first one made in this thread that I'd personally agree with and support.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

See, but the problem with that line of logic is that more frequent use of DA+SE due to reduction of Mana costs directly causes an increase in DPS output for Dark Knight, which is already in a perfect spot. It's slightly higher than PLD and slightly lower than WAR - arguably comparable to WAR if given the same preferential treatment. Increasing that would unbalance the tanks. If you decrease Mana costs you MUST decrease potencies alongside it to maintain Job balance.

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Alternatively though, one could decrease mana gains. At that point the largest effect would basically be a Power Slash combo buff, as the mana gains skipped would be less detrimental (especially if other sources aren't reduced as much as Syphon Strike, thought that would increase CD dependence slightly) and an effectively larger pool. Why that would be a necessary, I'm not sure, but that's my impression on most of this thread as I've read so far. Some things I would like to see, sure, but few seeming really necessary.



When I started DRK, I thought I would be happier with less toolkit conflict. At this point I hardly care. I just want to see Skill Speed reduce animation times so that I can still double-weave when using WTFast or single-weave without clipping on Plunge without it.

Personally, I've wanted Sole Survivor to be something that bridges the MT/OT positions a bit, as not to lock out so much of the DRK toolkit when put in a bad spot. Make it usable on allies, duplicating onto them a portion of your parry and self-healing done while causing parries and damage instances to cause procs for the both of you (Reprisal, Low Blow, Blood Price). As a gimmick, perhaps even keep the idea of you (or your ally) gaining the 20% HP & MP when the target (or other) dies.
When used on an enemy, it bleeds the mana and health gain over each strike, similar to Blood Weapon (to be revised) up to a cap (would require full uptime, many oGCDs, and a high attack rate to reach), and giving the remainder up to the capped amount if the enemy dies. Activation speed increased. CD adjusted to 90 seconds. Strong (probably too strong), but also versatile, and puts a choice between mitigation/toolkit and general mana maintenance.

I also feel like the Grit MP cost is a bit high for a mana-dependent job whose stance-change is on the GCD and carries no additional effects, but would be hesitant to sacrifice longer-term OT damage for buffs there.

Blood Price & Weapon are definitely integral to the DRK kit (I think often it's under-stated how integral they are), I didn't mean to down-play that. Also I think it's a mistake to even consider DRK a resource-based Job. DRK doesn't build resources, they sustain output.

As for Bloods being reliable, in the standard party configuration in instances with controllable aggro I think they do work as intended. But solo open world, unsynced dungeons, and PVP I feel a reduction in productivity of these CDs (especially bosses with down-time mechanics + single large-hit mechanics, which is a lot of them).

I do think, that come next patch cycle (whenever jobs get new abilities), DRK will get an additional MP recovery mechanic, I don't see how they can expand their magic kit without one, or they will continue to have this Achille's heel where they are less productive in solo/open-world/pvp/combat-mechanics than when in raids/dungeons with a group. (On a similar note, I think MCH needs/will get the same treatment, a solo-play-specific Rook that heals <only> the MCH, mitigation bubble <only the MCH>, etc).


A MP recovery concept:

DRK having a Greased Lightning type mechanic: a refreshable buff with a tight timer, dependent on 1>2>3 combos to sustain. This buff stacks to 3, like GL. Instead of DPS increases though, this buff increases the MP return of Syphon Strike, lowering the returns of Blood Price/Weapon, (or more accurately, the Bloods yield more MP per proc when this buff is absent or at lower stacks).

^I think a system like that would make DRK MP recovery more adaptable, in scenarios where Blood Price's productivity is marginalized there's a ramp up in Syphon Strike productivity (low frequency but high damage), and in scenarios where Syphon Strike is marginalized, Blood Price is providing the maximum of it's potential (AoE, multitarget, high frequency).

Put the blue flames visual on this new buff, switch Salted Earth to a MP consuming spell with potential 100% uptime (hell cost a GCD even, worth it), added HP absorb to Grit'ed Reprisal, and make Reprisal (or some new bada$$ oGCD attack) function like Tornado Kick / Geirskogul, on-demand use that consumes the GL-like stacks.

That's my DRK pie in the sky dream, anyway. Couldn't help but share.

yeah i thought maybe sole survivor could work like an additional mp recovery on demand which probably would make better use of the cd imo, the GL idea seems really interesting as well, I could dig that

Lvl 30 quest had you picking up Darkness stacks from dark flames. Afterwards the concept was never touched again.

Would love for SoSu to be a on demand drain spell every 200 seconds. Gives the DRK synergy with their own kit instead of once again relying on the party to kill something in 15 seconds with a debuff that actually does nothing to the enemy.

You know what I'd love? If folks that can't excel with DRK's kit would kindly re-roll instead of suggesting changes to dumb-down a job that, by design, has a high skill cap and is intended for veteran players, the best of which have been proving for almost a year now that the job is a world prog tank and capable of great things.

There are exactly TWO things that DRK *could* use, but it doesn't NEED them.
1. An extra piece of utility accessible while not tanking anything. Doesn't (and IMO shouldn't) need to be Reprisal, but something.
2. A PINCH (I'm talking like, Shadeshift-sized) of extra physical mitigation.

All I've seen on the front page for the past two weeks is "give DRK all the things, all the time, regardless of stance, regardless of MP, at the same time, forever, with shorter CDs, and no forethought required. I don't wanna manage my MP, I don't wanna think about how to optimally use my buffs/debuffs in a rotation (I wanna blind things and pop Blood Price at the same time and then complain about it), screw it, I just don't wanna push buttons period." Please consider what you could be doing to play the job more efficiently and optimally, accept the fact that you are playing a job with a high skill cap and a lot of active thought required beyond the basics of tanking, and either press on, or play a different job.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

You know what I'd love? If folks that can't excel with DRK's kit would kindly re-roll instead of suggesting changes to dumb-down a job that, by design, has a high skill cap and is intended for veteran players, the best of which have been proving for almost a year now that the job is a world prog tank and capable of great things.

There are exactly TWO things that DRK *could* use, but it doesn't NEED them.
1. An extra piece of utility accessible while not tanking anything. Doesn't (and IMO shouldn't) need to be Reprisal, but something.
2. A PINCH (I'm talking like, Shadeshift-sized) of extra physical mitigation.

[/B]

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Serious question, did your main account get banned? >.>

Though instead of physical mitigation, maybe increased self healing? I.E. Souleater returns 1.5 the damage dealt.

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Originally Posted by Violette

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1.5x the damage dealt would be borderline OP if you ask me. BUT, I think it would be neat if the heal ignored the Grit damage penalty. Because as it stands, you're never getting the full potency of Souleater in the heal. Not something I'd devote a thread to, but neat.

I said physical mitigation because in a very select few highly physical fights, when they were new content anyway, saw DRKs having to get creative with CDs against physical TBs when Shadowskin/Wall were on cooldown. I remember there being at least 1 TB in ThordanEx where I had to prepare DD+Reprisal, hit Foresight+Conva, and clench. Nothing unsurvivable, but usually left me with only a few thousand HP left. It was just unpleasant.That was back when STR tanking was a thing though and it was a race to see how small you could get your HP -_- A little idea I had previously in Spooky's old thread in regards to redesigning all tanks, was to give Dark Dance an additional buff that was like a 10-15% physical Stoneskin/Shadeshift effect (Shadeshift is 20% iirc? which would be a little OP with 26-27K HP.) Although with all the threads lately about (badly) redesigning/changing DRK I'd hate to jump on that train. I'd be perfectly content for DRK to be left entirely as-is until 4.0 when they will undoubtedly be upgrading all jobs in some form or fashion (moar traits please! :D)

Souleater I really don't see as being a big issue because it works for what it is, which basically amounts to a regen. Its such a frequently used skill. And when the boss is just wailing on you with AAs and you're hitting DASE, it extends (albeit not by a lot) the duration of time your healer can wait before healing you. Its not much but its still noteworthy. My WHM's regen ticks for about 1.4-1.5K on me, my SCH's fairy hits me for about 1.9-2K, and my Souleaters give me about 2.1K (factoring in Grit, of course), with about 3.5-3.7K if they crit. The only comparable ability is IB which differs significantly in usage since you want it for the mitigation while the heal is just a little bonus. Souleater just kind of happens. So with that said, I don't think it particularly needs changing. But if they boost it by 20-50% I won't complain.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

totes got b@nd

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I understand that too much of an increase would tip the scales back in favor of MT DRK, but it's an alternate route to better "physical" mitigation by giving more reactive HP regen as opposed to proactive reductions.
And I remember the Thordan's as well, I ended up clenching often because one or more healer's are dead.

It's not that Soul Eater is a PROBLEM per say, it's just the most obvious tool for further mitigation being added too it, given it won't change Dark Knight's rotations (we already use it for basically every occasion) and that it'll just be making a good thing better.


It's really about adding mitigation without changing skills majorly. More healing on SE would just mean Drk has better recovery options from big hits (compared to Clemency (when well timed) and IB/Equili) than it currently does.

Other options would be adding a small defensive bonus to Dark Arts (5% physical for 10 seconds). I don't want to see Dark Dance getting any more defensive skills (because CD would have to go up) and I cannot think of anywhere else on the current kit it could go.

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Originally Posted by Violette

It's not that Soul Eater is a PROBLEM per say, it's just the most obvious tool for further mitigation being added too it, given it won't change Dark Knight's rotations (we already use it for basically every occasion) and that it'll just be making a good thing better.


It's really about adding mitigation without changing skills majorly. More healing on SE would just mean Drk has better recovery options from big hits (compared to Clemency (when well timed) and IB/Equili) than it currently does.

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I did suggest changes that would slightly differ the game play, but if SE was treated similarly to path, i wouldnt complain. I dont know if its because reprisal stacks with path or not, that it cant be chosen to be put up 100% of the time or not, but seems wonky. if anything it wouldnt really break gameplay if something small was added to it(SE)...idk what though, str down 5%?(would it stack with ROH?)

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Originally Posted by Violette

I don't want to see Dark Dance getting any more defensive skills (because CD would have to go up)

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Why? Dark Mind's recast is 60s, and its WAY better, against its respective damage type. +30% parry rate and a 10% physical Stoneskin on a tank doesn't warrant more than a 60s recast, in my eyes anyway. It would essentially become Dark Dance + a lesser version of Sheltron, basically, for double the recast (of Sheltron). Seems appropriate, honestly.

On a side note, I'm curious as to why people do this - someone suggests a relatively sensible, minor buff to a cooldown, and they assume that there would HAVE to be a string attached, like a longer recast. Sometimes good things can just happen \o/

I don't think a defensive bonus to DA is really necessary or a good idea. DRK already has a built in mitigation gimmick - Reprisal. DRK as a tank basically has a sort of built-in Eye 4 an Eye. Just like WAR has big self heals, and PLD has its shield. Taking any kind of passive boost onto DA would actually make the mechanic clunky because you'd want to pop it much farther in advance of what you plan to boost it with than you do now. Then if something like DP comes off recast you're looking at a DPS loss for having to hold it until you shed the DA boost on its intended recipient.

This all being said, I'd still not argue with a *slight* boost to Souleater's healing power. I still find it a little bit silly that it doesn't ignore the Grit penalty, at least when DA'd.

Because while dark knight has some issues is poorly balanced content, so does paladin.
In balanced fights, they both perform very well defensively, so while this is the case, anything that would buff one classes capabilities, there would be a small push against it as well.

This is only for balanced classes, which i think we can agree pld/drk are. If we were buffing w.r.t. war then it'd be fine.

Not to mention it never hurts to be cautious when SE is playing with numbers.

In that vein, at the same time as I agree DRK could use just a tad extra physical mitigation, I think it would be pretty sensible to give PLD a similar treatment, even if that treatment is as simple as slapping a "you can now block magic attacks" effector to Bulwark. That ALONE would be a fantastic upgrade to fill that lull in cooldowns between Ramp - Sen - Ramp - _____ - Ramp - Sen when a boss is using Magical busters.

Bulwark+Sheltron = auto block magic buster once per 3 minutes.

The only time you should be using Dark Passenger is on huge trash pulls... and sacrificing health there is just a bad idea. Its a waste of MP on bosses and its a waste of a skill without Dark Arts because youre going to take a lot more damage than you need to.

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

The only time you should be using Dark Passenger is on huge trash pulls... and sacrificing health there is just a bad idea. Its a waste of MP on bosses and its a waste of a skill without Dark Arts because youre going to take a lot more damage than you need to.

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As the math earlier in this topic shows, dark passenger is more potency per MP than DA+SE (+150 for 884MP (dark Passenger) vs +140 for 1768MP(Soul Eater)) . It's a great use of MP on bosses, and ignoring it is a straight up dps loss.

No problem playing/managing MP as Dark knight here.

As a tank, having skills that cost hp is a little counterintuitive to the role of a tank. HP is your most important aspect, because staying alive is your job. It would fit the lore of a drk better considering their history, but overall I like managing mp more than having to cringe at using up hp, even if it is just a fraction of a loss. Now as an OT, there might be some possibilities there for sacrificing a bit of hp to either hit a bit harder, or maybe to give hp to the MT. That would make them a more versatile OT since that seems to be a complaint in the community. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

1. An extra piece of utility accessible while not tanking anything. Doesn't (and IMO shouldn't) need to be Reprisal, but something.

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Agree w/ this, PLD also needs something besides the STR down on RoH (since who uses RoH unless they absolutely have to). I know everyone wants to get rid of Path and Eye, or nerf them to hell, but I think it'd be cooler if PLD/DRK both offered equivalents in OT utility but not mirrored copies. Path is a bit too cut and dry, though, hard to really equal "boss does 10% less damage".

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2. A PINCH (I'm talking like, Shadeshift-sized) of extra physical mitigation.

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Agree w/ this as well, though I also think that all 3 tanks should be equal on mitigation as putting a tank at a mitigation disadvantage compared to other tanks means that that tank can't do it's job as well as another, and there's really no sense in taking the less effective one over the more effective one. As long as a tank can survive an encounter reliably it's generally fine, but it's just weird that there's a disparity in types of damage tanks can mitigate (especially when WAR can mitigate both with IB, Thrill + Convo, and Vengeance).

Also, RE: Soul Eater, I really think you could get rid of the heal all together and give it something else. The heal barely does anything as is and fiddling with the numbers won't really make up for that unless the number you heal for goes insanely high (like, 2.0 IB numbers). Probably a good place to stick on some unique utility, imo. I guess the only real argument for keeping the healing is solo stuff, but... you only get the heal when in Grit so I dunno if it's even really used for that now. I know it's been brought up before about allowing DRK to get the self heal out of Grit as well, though I feel like that's an unnecessary buff that doesn't really fix anything.

Thing is though if you took away the heal you basically discard the only bonafide separate Grit Effect a DRK has which IMO there should be more Grit effects across the DRK's kit.

Furthermore it further cements the fact that DRK has no on demand self healing unlike the PLD and WAR. Yeah you got DA Abyssal Drain and Grit only Souleater right now but in the long run it's pretty garbage. And SoSu is reliant on a target dying to get their essential 1200 potency HP Heal. And just as a weird example the enemies in Hullbreaker Hard that just end the encounter do not proc SoSu...making half the dungeon useless for SoSu.

Really shows how reliant the DRK can be with it's healer.

From the traditional perspective Souleater shouldn't be healing you anyway but since they want Tanks to be balanced they slapped one on it's most damaging combo move under Dark Arts.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

1: "lore" of other games doesn't matter because ff14 isn't every other ff. yknow what other class doesnt line up with the lore of other games? warrior. a master of all arms and armor is now the stereotypical "hulk SMERSH!!". instead of a refined soldier, we have an animalistic almost shaman-like barbarian.
heck, Astrologian doesnt even HAVE any lore from other games. so basically the "lore" point is moot

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warrior is an amalgamation of "fighter", "berserker", "pirate", and "viking". They merged a bunch of fairly niche classes into one pretty cool new one. and even if your view of the class is rigidly limited to ff11, they still were best with great axes and were hardly "refined".

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

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Something that might be interesting is changing the effect in and out of Grit. So if you use DASE while in Grit you get the heal, but if you use it out of Grit it applies some debuff to the boss, a buff to yourself, or whatever. Kind of like how WAR's abilities change effectiveness in Defiance/Deliverance.

What if simply the HP absorb of Souleater scaled on a modifier that worked similar to Spirits Within? The lower the DRK's HP, the the ratio goes from 1:1 damage-to-health up to 1:1.5? Just the hit point return scales, not damage inflicted. That at least would pull the heal out from under the Grit reduction, which Second Wind, Clemency, and Equilibrium do not suffer. And it's a bit of a shout-out to the edginess of FFXI's Souleater.

I don't think we're going to see much more reverse-engineering of any job's kit until 4.0 though, tbh.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Something that might be interesting is changing the effect in and out of Grit. So if you use DASE while in Grit you get the heal, but if you use it out of Grit it applies some debuff to the boss, a buff to yourself, or whatever. Kind of like how WAR's abilities change effectiveness in Defiance/Deliverance.

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It could be interesting but like stated while I feel they will look at DRK again come the next expansion I wouldn't expect heavy changes until that time. My only question I'd be asking is why is Souleater the only skill with a Grit effect and nothing else. Seems like a missed opportunity to differentiate the boon of Grit being on or off as far as weaponskills are concerned outside of damage reduction across the board.

But I think the core issue here is that WAR has concrete stances that do different shit and DRK only has Grit. Darkside is more a passive buff. Pretty much Maim as a toggle and lets you use your full repertoire of skills.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

All I've seen on the front page for the past two weeks is "give DRK all the things, all the time, regardless of stance, regardless of MP, at the same time, forever, with shorter CDs, and no forethought required. I don't wanna manage my MP, I don't wanna think about how to optimally use my buffs/debuffs in a rotation (I wanna blind things and pop Blood Price at the same time and then complain about it), screw it, I just don't wanna push buttons period." Please consider what you could be doing to play the job more efficiently and optimally, accept the fact that you are playing a job with a high skill cap and a lot of active thought required beyond the basics of tanking, and either press on, or play a different job.

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And admittedly a lot of those—many of my own included—therefore shouldn't be taken seriously. But not all, or likely even most, most complaints are made with the intent or short-sided allowance of dumbing down the job. Some stem from more fundamental questions like "what is the actual opportunity cost of Grit even supposed to be tuned against?" (Because if it's PLD's 2-GCD stance-dance, there are even more complaints in that sector because of how that compared to Warrior's 10s no-GCD swap.)

"Why is Dark Arts set at the mana cost it is, or the AoEs set at theirs, and the mana-generators at their particular outputs? What was the attempted ratio?"

"Is the DRK toolkit is so individually strong that its sum has to be weaker than its parts?"

"Why is the DRK's primary method for mana generation vs. AoE packs built to be in conflict with its strongest mana-consuming defenses (especially against—get this— AoE packs).

If you wonder why these suggestions keep popping up, you need look no further than how you and others tend to answer them—with defensive classism for your veteran set of players (which is right and fine; you are the people actually invested in this job), rather than with the math that might show where the balance really lies and why these conflicts exist, likely even to the DRK's benefit in terms of interesting gameplay and situational/burst capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Why is Dark Arts set at the mana cost it is, or the AoEs set at theirs, and the mana-generators at their particular outputs? What was the attempted ratio?"

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The aoes are set at their values based on two magic numbers - 884 and 1768. Most of the Dark Knight's kit revolves around them.

Unleashed is 795(technically 795.6, but the game seems to ignore decimals), or 0.9 the value of 884
Abyssal Drain is set at 972, or 1.1 the value of 884
Dark art's cost is exactly 2x 884 or our magic 1768
Blood price returns 353 MP, or just the tinsy-tiniest bit under 1/5th a Dark art's cost. (19.9%) Unmend also costs this same amount
Carve and spit returns 884MP last time I checked when un-dark arts'd, forgive me if I'm wrong, or 1/2 a Dark Arts cost. same with Syphon strike.
Dark passenger is the magic 884, or 1/2 a dark arts cost.
Blood weapon is the only odd one out, as it requires 7.5 hits to recover a Dark Arts cost.
Grit is exactly 0.75 the cost of a Dark Arts, and is 50% more MP than our magic 884 number (1326)


Dark Arts itself is close to 25% of your max MP (Due to racial stats)

With that in mind, It's safe to say Dark Arts was balanced at base MP at 60, then (mostly)everything was ratio'd around it.

The ratios on Blood price and blood weapon make sense in context though. Boss autos are roughly 2-3 seconds in between, so Blood price will basically refund one dark arts if the boss continues to auto during the whole time. and Blood weapon, accounting for GCDs only, basically refunds you a dark arts cost. Blood weapon's ratio is also lower due to the fact that autos and OGCDs are also triggering it as well, whereas Blood price is strictly locked to being attacked.

Looking at the values, Grit's MP cost can also be looked at in terms of Sword and Shield Oath. They both cost 884MP (Magic number again), and take 2 GCDs to switch from one back to the first. Grit only consumes 1 GCD to turn on, while not consuming one to turn off. Since it only uses 50% of the GCDs, it also costs 50% more to activate at all.

WAR's opportunity cost is 10 seconds of being locked into the stance which can be fatal if fat fingered at a bad time (Due to IB being locked to tank stance) as well as having to sacrifice either their major mitigation tool (IB) or strongest potency move (Fell Cleave) for at minimum 10 seconds, as well as 30% of their damage(Deliverance -> Defiance wise). In addition, a WAR going from Deliverance -> Defiance is NOT at full HP as only their max HP is increased, whereas a PLD/DRK instantly gain the effect of their tank stance from turning it on. If a DRK and a WAR were both at 20K HP and taking a hit worth 23k within the next second, the DRK would pop Grit, be left at 1600HP. A WAR taking the hit would turn on Defiance and unless he had an instant heal or received one, is dead regardless.

Obviously, such a situation isn't exactly common, but it does show that WAR pays it's opportunity cost on dps and not receiving the EHP of their tank stance immediately. How much that hinders WAR or if its even an issue is for another topic though.

As far as Dark Dance/dark passenger Evasion vs Blood price, I think that more comes down to something the player is supposed to be thinking about actively, not trying to tie together. For example, my opener on any Large pack as DRK is to pop a defensive CD + Blood Price, then go ham with DA+ Abyssal. Between the sheer self heals going and the damage% reduction, I've had healers comment on the fact they basically didn't need to heal besides regens. Then when BP's timer is approaching 0, I stop Abyssal to build MP to go -> (DA+DD) + (DA+DP) which usually carries me till the death of the whole pack.

At least in my opinion, it should be obvious that BP works against evasion, so you actively make sure NOT to use it with evasion and get creative with it. Like how WAR can use Awareness to turn Raw intuition from something that would be hellish in large pack situations positioning wise into an awesome CD.

I do not agree with people who say that it would make you the worst tank. WoW's Death Knight had abilities that expended health and they were a fantastic tank. Before someone chimes in "this isn't WoW"... you're right, but the point being the concept has been done and worked. You would just have to compensate somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

I do not agree with people who say that it would make you the worst tank. WoW's Death Knight had abilities that expended health and they were a fantastic tank. Before someone chimes in "this isn't WoW"... you're right, but the point being the concept has been done and worked. You would just have to compensate somewhere else.

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I agree. Most of my tanking experience comes from dk tanking in WoW where I ran nearly all of the end game content, often during when it was current. It's not like I want to make drk into dk, but the similarities are undeniable and dk is still one of the most fun classes to play. Rather than emphasizing how wow is not FF, why not simply acknowledge wow's greatness and learn from it?

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Looking at the values, Grit's MP cost can also be looked at in terms of Sword and Shield Oath. They both cost 884MP (Magic number again), and take 2 GCDs to switch from one back to the first. Grit only consumes 1 GCD to turn on, while not consuming one to turn off. Since it only uses 50% of the GCDs, it also costs 50% more to activate at all.

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You can't really apply DRK's "magic numbers" on PLD because PLD has a different amount of max MP, making the mp cost a different scale. Grit is ~19% mp cost (1326/6935) while Oaths are ~17% mp cost each (884/5201).