1.2 Needs to fix Sentinel, Tanking, and XI Class-ism.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

How I play is up to my decide

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But how the game is designed and the opinions of others are not. You're just making it harder on yourself really.

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

But how the game is designed and the opinions of others are not. You're just making it harder on yourself really.

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no no, not really. I cant fight ifrit w/o sentinel atm but I can later who knows ? also I am not that of a guy want to shiny glow wep either, in other game if it is the top best wep then I ll have no choose but to do it, but in this game there is a different system where you can custom your gear and enchanted it (even though its hard but its decent) <------ w/o those solid backup I wont say that line, really

Eh, not really...you'd have to do some crazy hq'ing and socketing to the current crafter level 50 weapons to come close to beating ifrit weapons. Reason being base damage on weapon has the greatest impact on damage right now.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

that s random pt, not my shell

ninja edit: and I feel that reply begin to go far away from main topic. How I play is up to my decide

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The way i play is up to me to decide argument goes both ways buddy

Don't complain that someone decided to play it safe and chose to invite a player that has sentinel over one that doesn't.

PuGs ALWaYS choose the path of least resistance. You have ls mates if you want to go against th currents. I did

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Originally Posted by Raijin

The way i play is up to me to decide argument goes both ways buddy

Don't complain that someone decided to play it safe and chose to invite a player that has sentinel over one that doesn't.

PuGs ALWaYS choose the path of least resistance. You have ls mates if you want to go against the currents. I did

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now, lets not point at me and say I complain when I clearly not, all I do is make thing clear that it is random pt

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Eh, not really...you'd have to do some crazy hq'ing and socketing to the current crafter level 50 weapons to come close to beating ifrit weapons. Reason being base damage on weapon has the greatest impact on damage right now.

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Dont denied that

Every class should be able to fulfill their role with the tools they were given. The fact that, for example, Gladiators need to level several jobs just to be effective is poor balance, and should have been fixed by now.

It takes 3 hours to get from 1-36 if that... Instead of being stubborn about it, why not just level it up because it's useful even on a caster. Don't you like to solo? Don't you want to survive? 3 hours out of your day is not going to kill you. So seriously get over it.

This is the whole point of the armory system so you can customize your class and take advantage of other classes abilities. You sound like you don't want to progress because you have to level up for a few hours... I mean really? Stop whining and just get it. I'm not even an elitist and I'm telling you that you're being ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

that s random pt, not my shell

ninja edit: and I feel that reply begin to go far away from main topic. How I play is up to my decide

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If how you play is up to you to decide, then who those leaders (the one that requires you to have Sentinel) wants to invite is up to them to decide?

If you are not happy, start a party that does NOT require Sentinel, based on the reply here, I am sure you can get more than a full group to go, and yes you can beat it, I've done it with over half the party doesn't have Sentinel or missed their Sentinel.

One of the TA run I went to yesterday, we were killing so fast that 5/8 missed the Sentinel cause they popped it right before the nails come out, and we still pulled through with 3 dead lancers after hellfire (I guess what you are going to say next is nerf chainspell, cause we got everyone back up thanks to that).

This post is totally wrong. THIS is the essence and the beauty of the armory system: You level other classes to make your main class stronger.

Does Sentinel make you stronger on the Ifrit fight? It sure does.

Is it required? NO. I have killed Ifrit 30+ times and my gladiator is 21... and I'm not dying on hellfire.

But from a PuG perspective, you assume most people are bad to begin with, so naturally people will look for those that are "most likely" to survive, noone wants to waste their time. If you're not happy with this you can make your own group of non-sentinel people and see how that goes!

come patch 1.21, solving issues and giving specific roles for party play.

Agreed with OP. Why to be a good tanker I'm forced to exp other 3 classes to 40 +? Nonsense. I hope for 1.20 ><

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Originally Posted by Synapse

OK, Ifirit Fight is meant for hardcore(anyone can try it tho), as said by Yoshi. But asking for not requiring sentinel for the fight is like making it available for everyone without a defence build. Players who are up to the challenge will have to have all necessary skilled leveled to make it a bit less harder.

If you don't have these skills, don't try it. The fight is not meant for everyone with a single class at 50.

*using the word 'you' as generalization, not directed*

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Shouldn't skill be the barrier to success rather than how much you've grinded?

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Originally Posted by Physic

I dont think this is correct, im pretty sure SE made the fight beatable by pure disciplines of magic classes, they have stoneskin, emulate, and full access to defensive materias. I find it hard to believe that it is unbeatable without 1 skill.

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Probably not beatable without 1 skill AND server lag though.

I really don't understand why people complain about something that is a core mechanic of the game. FFXIV is based around having multiple classes leveled so that you can use their abilities. It's fairly unique among the current popular MMOs in that way. So if you don't want to play FFXIV because of the fact that you DO have to level a class which you might not enjoy to be better suited for a fight with the class you do like, then don't play a game that is based around that concept.

You can get the same experience of leveling a caster in Rift or WoW and never have to touch a sword to do endgame content. People leveled up jobs in FFXI not just to 37, but to 75 to make getting items for their main job easier and that effort made them more valuable. Was it required? No it wasn't but if they wanted to get into a specific LS or get invites to pick-up groups easier, it was their choice and no one was forcing them. Like the OP said, even without Sentinel they have still killed Ifrit 8 times which means they don't have to put the effort into leveling Gladiator, it would just be easier to get items for their main if they did.

Knock down two nails if people don't have sentinel. Why complain about something that isn't a problem? Hell, you can even take down three nails and keep one DD on Ifrit to be super safe.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

I really don't understand why people complain about something that is a core mechanic of the game. FFXIV is based around having multiple classes leveled so that you can use their abilities.

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that will change once patch 1.21 comes.

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Originally Posted by Bearforce

that will change once patch 1.21 comes.

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We don't know how much they will be limiting cross class abilities at this point, so that is an assumption that could be completely wrong. For all we know Sentinel will still be an ability that all classes can use with their job equip.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

The 'FFXI purist community"? Sentinel is really helpful to have in this fight, it has nothing to do with a "purist community" lol. MMORPG communities in general always thrive for efficiency and suffice to say, reducing damage taken is all about being efficient.

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We rarely see eye to eye but I do agree with you here, that being said I somewhat see where the OP is coming from, not everyone has the time to level all these classes to get these skills, and it is annoying that a fight is so depentant on having that 1 skill just to be able to survive.

I would suggest SE fix it now before it gets out of hand, with any luck the only job able to equip Sentinel will be Paladin.

To the OP.

If you think that this is a flawed system that comes from FFXI you are dead wrong. FFXI required that you had a subjob, some jobs would benefit from more yes, but mainly you only needed one and you only needed to level it to lvl 37. However, in this game you benefit from having abilities from most classes and even all the way up to 50. (Do you remember surpluss?) So this is not a "FFXI flawed system", FFXIV can take all the credit for this one.

However

You might as well wait for the next patch where classes are adjusted for 1.21. This is when jobs make their debut in FFXIV. I'm pretty sure that this is going to overhaul the party and battle system.

Yeah this is hardly an XI purist issue. This is an MMO gamer issue for two reasons. 1.) A small subset are extremely loud and forceful about their min/max opinions. 2.) the rest have no backbone and allow themselves to be lead around by the collar instead of telling those guys to STFU.

Cure is broken. Requiring THM or CNJ leveled to 20 for general survivability is a broken mechanic that is setting a dangerous precedent for the whole game's future.[/B]

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Thank you for making soloing challenging. When the servers are fixed, I am sure this will be a thoroughly enjoyable game.

Unfortunately, you need to patch Cure. The game itself expects everyone to level THM or CNJ to 20+ for an efficient Cure. This type of gameplay is pathetic, masochistic, outrageous, and classist.

I have no desire to play THM, nor CNJ, nor pugilist. I am a fully dedicated Archer.
One of XI's worst qualities was that you had to level like 1 or 2 jobs for your mainjob, to be efficient. Leveling those jobs took days. Yes the leveling curve is ridiculously easy in XIV, but no, I still don't want anything to do with THM, CNJ, or pugilist. I don't enjoy other classes than Archer and I want nothing to do with them.

"But the armory system caters to leveling multiple classes." Yes, it does, and it rightfully should. Unfortunately, when you have skills like Cure, that make such a dramatic impact to where the game starts demanding you level this class just for general survivability -- you know it needs to be patched or something needs to be fixed.

1.2 is the perfect time to fix this horrible XI mechanic. I was dragged through all CoP missions by my friends despite not having the right jobs leveled. XIV needs to move away from this terrible terrible terrible terrible design for future content.

I have failed two guildleves that would've required me to have Cure to do them.


You shouldn't need either mage class leveled to experience general gameplay.

The "you can be whatever you want on a single character by mixing abilities from all classes" is an interesting mechanic at first glance, and a major hurdle for new players at second. Personally, I leveled Gladiator to 36 just for Sentinel. Because that ability is good enough to be considered a requirement for whatever you play (Ifrit tactics!).

Did I like to level Gladiator? No. I just wanted to be a frickin' THM all along. But to be efficient at what I am doing and get invited to NM/Raid parties, I also had to level Conjurer. And Gladiator. And Archer for Stride.

Some people may like it; I, however, did not. And I am not alone.

The subjob system from FFXI was better. At least you didn't have to level all classes for cherry-picking the best abilities. Which tend to come at either 36 or 40.

Hardly a problem from either the community or of game balance. This is a MMO, and thus there will always be the 'best' way to do something, and most high end groups WILL always work out to be as close as possible to this "best" way to handle every fight. If it's not a skill requirment, it's gear requirement, class requirement, trait requirement, food requirement, etc, etc. I'd go as far as saying that it's literally impossible to avoid this kind of thing in an MMO environment, because one player "gimped" in a fight DOES screw the whole group regardless of how prepared they are.

I know I'm currently very gimped (no materia gear, no decent cross classing other than mage skills) due to being busy in real life, therefore I don't even ask to join Ifrit groups. Not because people would simply "refuse me", but because I know I would just be dead weight.

That said, your specific example (having X cross class skill) should become far less common once jobs kick in. But I'm sure we will still have all those "you don't have X materia", "you don't have X sword", "you don't have X job" sittuations no matter what the devs do. Unless they just make content so simple that you can just have whatever and beat it. That would suck, sorry.

In any case, If the people you know will ONLY let you even try something with the exactly "perfect" build no matter what, then all you have to do is make new friends or work to get that build, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

That's the life of MMORPGs these days (it does happen in others, even more so with certain type of Add-ons.)

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Exactly.

Depending on how much "freedom" players are given with the add-on system for XIV, I fully expect the same thing to happen here. Certain add-ons - even those that absolutely are not necessary - will be deemed "mandatory" to have or you'll be told (ironically) to "learn how to play"... which of course, really translates into "We need you to use those add-ons because we suck and can't complete anything without them".

I always find it funny how in MMORPGs (XI, WoW, you name it), the people who are the most dependent on guides/add-ons/cookie-cutter build/etc. to beat content are the self-described "hardcores" who deem themselves "elite players". They look down their nose derisively at those who prefer not to use them and to instead, you know... play the game without training wheels and helpers.

I'm sure (unfortunately) that same "We need add-ons and walk-throughs to win" mentality is going to pervade XIV as well.

Whatever changes SE makes to the game, no matter how they try to "balance things out", the same exact thing is going to happen. The so-called "elite" are going to quickly find out which approach/build guarantees the best, most predictable outcome, create a template/walkthrough of it and then declare that all others must follow that same setup or they don't know how to play and don't get to do the content. Because, again, that's the only way they know how to beat it.

The sad thing is, many others will - without even second-guessing it or bothering to think of alternatives - will resign themselves to those guides being "the one right way to do it", and won't even try to complete the content using any other setup. Sadder still is some of them won't try for fear of being mocked and derided by other players for "not doing it right".

And please, nobody bother coming back with the whole "it's all about efficiency"... that's a player mentality. The idea of content is to experience and complete it. There is no "law" stating "it must be done in the most efficient manner possible, or you're doing it wrong". Again, that's just players who require those guides/cookie-cutter builds in order to succeed at the game twisting their own inadequacy into a mandate. They need everyone else to play a certain way in order for them to succeed.

A friend of mine created a static for Zilart, CoP and Aht Urghan. For all three, his setup was - according to the "elite" of FFXI - "the wrong setup". He was told, constantly, "you're doing it wrong", "that's not the right build", "you're going to fail without "x-jobs" for "y-fight". He was mocked by his own "elite" LS-mates who called him and his group {Too Weak}.

Lo and behold, he and his "too weak" group finished Zilart, CoP and Aht Urghan - every one straight through to the final fight.

What did an "elite" player say when he informed them of his group's accomplishments? "So what? You got lucky. I would never have let you do that in my group. You gotta learn to play the right way, man. Those guides and walkthroughs exist for a reason". My friend's response: "The point is, you and everyone else told me we'd fail, we'd never finish it, it wouldn't work, we were doing it wrong and all this. We beat it anyway and didn't need any of that. Yet you're still telling me that following those guides is mandatory to complete the content. Who needs to learn how to play again?"

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Exactly.

Depending on how much "freedom" players are given with the add-on system for XIV, I fully expect the same thing to happen here. Certain add-ons - even those that absolutely are not necessary - will be deemed "mandatory" to have or you'll be told (ironically) to "learn how to play"... which of course, really translates into "We need you to use those add-ons because we suck and can't complete anything without them".

I always find it funny how in MMORPGs (XI, WoW, you name it), the people who are the most dependent on guides/add-ons/cookie-cutter build/etc. to beat content are the self-described "hardcores" who deem themselves "elite players". They look down their nose derisively at those who prefer not to use them and to instead, you know... play the game without training wheels and helpers.

I'm sure (unfortunately) that same "We need add-ons and walk-throughs to win" mentality is going to pervade XIV as well.

Whatever changes SE makes to the game, no matter how they try to "balance things out", the same exact thing is going to happen. The so-called "elite" are going to quickly find out which approach/build guarantees the best, most predictable outcome, create a template/walkthrough of it and then declare that all others must follow that same setup or they don't know how to play and don't get to do the content. Because, again, that's the only way they know how to beat it.

And please, don't come back with the whole "it's all about efficiency"... that's a player mentality. The idea of content is to experience and complete it. There is no "law" stating "it must be done in the most efficient manner possible, or you're doing it wrong". Again, that's just players who require those guides/cookie-cutter builds in order to succeed at the game twisting their own inadequacy into a mandate.

A friend of mine created a static for Zilart, CoP and Aht Urghan. For all three, his setup was - according to the "elite" of FFXI - "the wrong setup". He was told, constantly, "you're doing it wrong", "that's not the right build", "you're going to fail without "x-jobs" for "y-fight". He was mocked by his own "elite" LS-mates who called him and his group {Too Weak}.

Lo and behold, he and his "too weak" group finished Zilart, CoP and Aht Urghan - every one straight through to the final fight.

What did an "elite" player say when he informed them of his group's accomplishments? "So what? You got lucky. I would never have let you do that in my group. You gotta learn to play the right way, man. Those guides and walkthroughs exist for a reason". My friend's response: "The point is, you and everyone else told me we'd fail, we'd never finish it, it wouldn't work, we were doing it wrong and all this. We beat it anyway and didn't need any of that. Now you're telling me that following those guides is mandatory to complete the content. Who needs to learn how to play again?"

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Great post. I could not have possibly said this better myself.

Remember when addons and voice chat didn't exist? I don't recall people having trouble beating game content then.

Hive mind creates bizarre logic bubbles in game communities. It is like RDM in XI. God forbid a RDM melees in party and yet they can solo crap that groups have trouble taking down.

What can you do though? There is no cure for stupidity.

Being forced to download an addon is a little bit (reads a lot) different than spending hours leveling a class you have no interest in.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Being forced to download an addon is a little bit (reads a lot) different than spending hours leveling a class you have no interest in.

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It's still a player mentality, not one mandated by the game design.

SE could make changes to Sentinel or some other requirement, and it would simply make way for the same people who deemed Sentinel to be "a must" to declare something else as such.

There's nothing SE can do to change the way people think. And, in MMORPGs unfortunately, the people who seem to be the "most influential" are always thinking in terms of having one way to do everything, deeming that one way to be the right way. And everyone else is expected to follow suit.

The example I gave in my last post - of my friend completing all those missions in XI - was an example of how he didn't require the jobs/builds that the "elite" said he did. He and his group just needed to see what jobs they had, what setups they could use and what strategies they could form to make it work. And they made it work... through CoP when it was still at its hardest, no less.

Requiring certain jobs/classes to be a certain level for certain skills, requiring certain add-ons, requiring certain gear, and so on... those are all product of players who are trying to make the game as predictable and color-by-numbers as possible.

SE can't change how people approach their game, though I know people love to blame SE (or any developer) for "making it necessary". No they don't. The players make it necessary. It's simply easier to blame someone/something else than it is to accept responsibility for their own decisions or inadequacies.

Only the players can change that behavior.

You can do as my friend did in my example, give all those "elites" and their rules the finger, form your own group and develop strategies to take on the content as you prefer, without requiring all that.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Great post. I could not have possibly said this better myself.

Remember when addons and voice chat didn't exist? I don't recall people having trouble beating game content then.

Hive mind creates bizarre logic bubbles in game communities. It is like RDM in XI. God forbid a RDM melees in party and yet they can solo crap that groups have trouble taking down.

What can you do though? There is no cure for stupidity.

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Nor complacency.

Well-put, by the way :).

As an addendum to the account of my friend back in XI, he was eventually kicked out of that LS for trying to suggest other ways to beat Zilart/CoP/Aht Urghan. Some other players wanted to complete it, and were being given the typical "you have to follow "x" guide and "y" party build.." routine.

My friend offered examples of how his group completed it as alternate suggestions and was promptly told - in Linkshell, not even in /tell - to "stop trying to gimp the linkshell with his fail strats". He said "They're not fail. We completed all of it with them. They're options that might be useful to them". He was kicked from the ls a little bit later.

Another member PM'd him telling him they were all ripping him to pieces for being a crap player and doing it wrong, telling the people he was giving advice to to not listen to him, to do it the "right way", etc.

Funnier still is that one person he was trying to help ended up dropping that LS pearl, PM'd my friend asking to join his and said "what a bunch of douchebags" lol.

Nice huh?

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

SE can't change how people approach their game, though I know people love to blame SE (or any developer) for "making it necessary". No they don't. The players make it necessary. It's simply easier to blame someone/something else than it is to accept responsibility for their own decisions or inadequacies.

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Although I do agree with much of what you say, I do think SE are to blame here mainly because the servers just can't cope with this fight, which leads to people using sentinel because you can't judge if you're guna get hit by one of ifrits abilities due to the animation lag.

There will always be douchy people who refuse to listen to other peoples suggestions as you have said and those people who refuse the most are always the loudest in doing so, when you are in a LS like that its time to move on.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Although I do agree with much of what you say, I do think SE are to blame here mainly because the servers just can'ty cope with this fight, which leads to people using sentinel because you can't judge if you're guna get hit by one of ifrits abilities due to the animation lag.

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Then that's an issue with the server tech or some other aspect, unrelated to the fight itself, that should be cleared up once the server issues are sorted.

I'm also sure - and you can quote me on this - once the lag issues are resolved and it's no longer a problem, people will continue to insist that such skills are "mandatory" anyway. It happens with every other fight in every other MMO, why would it be any different in this case.

I'm sure server lag isn't an intended strategy of Ifrit's :-p.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Then that's an issue with the server tech or some other aspect, unrelated to the fight itself.

I'm sure server lag isn't an intended strategy of Ifrit's :-p.

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LOL that made me laugh because although probably not you never can tell where SE are concerned.

Although what i meant is that people are trying desperately to beat this boss and thats where the force of using sentinel is coming from because you just don't know where you are standing with the lag.

SE should have been a bit more mindful when designing this boss fight how the servers would cause issues, im sure the moogle fight will be no different and we will be stuck playing like this until 2.0.

Sentinel is not going to save you in the lag issues on Ifrit. It lowers dmg from 1600-1800 an eruption to around 800-900 an eruption.

The danger comes when it does it 3xs... so 900 x 3 = 2700 yea probably gona near kill people anyways.

NA/EU players are at a major disadvantage on the fight, but it i doable. You have to be ready for the TP attack before it happens and you have to know where to stand and what to do.

For those having issues killing it here is a hint, The Special attacks ifrit does are in pretty accurate intervals and there are places you can stand to always 100% avoid plums.

Yea it is BS, and not an excuse for SE not to fix it but it is doable. And sentiel is not going to save you if you screw up anyways. Kill 2-3 spikes and sentinel is not needed if everyone is cured up and has stoneskin (can easily survive with 2 spikes down 2700+hp and stoneskin).

Nerf Sentinal and the community will just find another new required skill to replace it. It's a lose/lose situation. It's the Players fault, not the design of the game.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Exactly.

Depending on how much "freedom" players are given with the add-on system for XIV, I fully expect the same thing to happen here. Certain add-ons - even those that absolutely are not necessary - will be deemed "mandatory" to have or you'll be told (ironically) to "learn how to play"... which of course, really translates into "We need you to use those add-ons because we suck and can't complete anything without them".

I always find it funny how in MMORPGs (XI, WoW, you name it), the people who are the most dependent on guides/add-ons/cookie-cutter build/etc. to beat content are the self-described "hardcores" who deem themselves "elite players". They look down their nose derisively at those who prefer not to use them and to instead, you know... play the game without training wheels and helpers.

I'm sure (unfortunately) that same "We need add-ons and walk-throughs to win" mentality is going to pervade XIV as well.

Whatever changes SE makes to the game, no matter how they try to "balance things out", the same exact thing is going to happen. The so-called "elite" are going to quickly find out which approach/build guarantees the best, most predictable outcome, create a template/walkthrough of it and then declare that all others must follow that same setup or they don't know how to play and don't get to do the content. Because, again, that's the only way they know how to beat it.

The sad thing is, many others will - without even second-guessing it or bothering to think of alternatives - will resign themselves to those guides being "the one right way to do it", and won't even try to complete the content using any other setup. Sadder still is some of them won't try for fear of being mocked and derided by other players for "not doing it right".

And please, nobody bother coming back with the whole "it's all about efficiency"... that's a player mentality. The idea of content is to experience and complete it. There is no "law" stating "it must be done in the most efficient manner possible, or you're doing it wrong". Again, that's just players who require those guides/cookie-cutter builds in order to succeed at the game twisting their own inadequacy into a mandate. They need everyone else to play a certain way in order for them to succeed.

A friend of mine created a static for Zilart, CoP and Aht Urghan. For all three, his setup was - according to the "elite" of FFXI - "the wrong setup". He was told, constantly, "you're doing it wrong", "that's not the right build", "you're going to fail without "x-jobs" for "y-fight". He was mocked by his own "elite" LS-mates who called him and his group {Too Weak}.

Lo and behold, he and his "too weak" group finished Zilart, CoP and Aht Urghan - every one straight through to the final fight.

What did an "elite" player say when he informed them of his group's accomplishments? "So what? You got lucky. I would never have let you do that in my group. You gotta learn to play the right way, man. Those guides and walkthroughs exist for a reason". My friend's response: "The point is, you and everyone else told me we'd fail, we'd never finish it, it wouldn't work, we were doing it wrong and all this. We beat it anyway and didn't need any of that. Yet you're still telling me that following those guides is mandatory to complete the content. Who needs to learn how to play again?"

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If you can't actually understand why addons get pushed on most of the players then I don't know what to say. You probably didn't participate in raids for an extended period of time to get acquainted with the PuG populations skillset. Most of them out there are incapable of getting out of a fire or any other hazardous area/moving somewhere else without explicit guidance. Let alone admitting they don't actually know what to do or how to play. This also has very little to do with the genre/game/IRL.

You get told to get addons because you are viewed as the weakest link in the group/raid, there's also that detail that encounters are designed around boss mods by the developers. It also severely impaired your ability to heal cross group without decent raid frames which is why they were built in. Those players suggesting you get an addon are probably not the ones that are going to screw up catastrophically and wipe everyone else.

Self-described hardcore is just another word to describe being bad. Same goes to stubborn guild/raid leaders, I've been there and done that. Smashing your face into something repeatedly is not a valid strategy just because someone else beat it that way doesn't mean you can or have to. I've repeatedly had to deal with other players telling me my class couldn't do something because they didn't know to do it themselves except they had no power over it because the group running it was my friends.

This is like tanks running to the forums and telling everyone they don't need to be crit capped because they downed a boss without it. That isn't anything but pure luck because getting hit by that 0.04% or higher chance meant instant death. Good luck trying to argue to a group of strangers why they should take you along with that in mind.

The actual elite/hardcore players that you bash every chance you get are the ones finding alternative ways of doing encounters and trying to streamline it for others if they so desire. Stop confusing them with the wannabe noobs that refuse to try outside of their sandbox.

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Originally Posted by Tempestmoon

Nerf Sentinal and the community will just find another new required skill to replace it. It's a lose/lose situation. It's the Players fault, not the design of the game.

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You don't design something a certain way and complain the players are misusing it. That is the definition of bad game design.

Having skills from other classes should help you/make it more enjoyable, not carry you.

You have the right to night rank up gladiator 4 sentinel just like another player has the right to not invite your squishy Mage arse to ifrit fight. It's not required. This isn't a design flaw. It is personal preference. There is no known patch for that.

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Originally Posted by Destain

You have the right to night rank up gladiator 4 sentinel just like another player has the right to not invite your squishy Mage arse to ifrit fight. It's not required. This isn't a design flaw. It is personal preference. There is no known patch for that.

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Mages are supposed to be squishy, its why they wear cloth .. /duh

In most MMO's mages also have high magic defense so something like an AOE firebomb would/should do them less damage.

Making no ability any better than any other ability in the base class system is a terrible idea, unfortunately. A game with no actual way to be mechanically efficient is a game in which your choice of equipped skill and choice of action at any given moment has no meaning, i.e., not a fun game.

However, your basic point about tanking is solid, and something I do hope they address in the jobs system.

(As for Sentinel... put the ability on Sentinel (i.e. Shield), that way if you're a mage only, you'll still learn it? I don't know. I sympathise, I'm not really enthusiastic about the idea of leveling GLD to 36 either, and it 'shouldn't' be necessary, I just don't know if it's actually possible to 'properly' balance this without making the game bland and uninteresting.)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Mages are supposed to be squishy, its why they wear cloth .. /duh

In most MMO's mages also have high magic defense so something like an AOE firebomb would/should do them less damage.

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they have fire defense gear, mdefense gear and hp gear, sentinel is only one solution of many. The content does not REQUIRE it, some dudes who he wants to join requires it, because thats what they want, its not required by the game. Essentially they are trying to minimize the skill required to win consistently.

The players in this case are the problem the content does not force or require sentinel, there are mage ways to solve the issue.

To help combat the "Sentinel Required" we're taking the approach of hosting 2 types of runs. One being a hardcore run, where specific skills are required, and one being a standard run. Standard run lists helpful skills, but does not require any of our members to actually have them to participate.
Sure the standard parties might have a tougher time, but no one is excluded.