Please Add no bonus option for PF

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

First time bonus is per person, not per class. Guildhests are the only exception, and nobody farms those.

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No its per class, i had it when i hit 60 on my war it popped up once as a bonus for me in Gardua HM, id never leveled a war until after HW so it was clearly me, i did do HM ages ago for my relic on another class so its class based.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

They can make their own clear parties any day of the week. Ther's nothing at all stopping them.

I recall a Titan EX farm I did once. A DRG snuck in who had no clear, died to every landslide and not only got Gulfaxi on their clear, but did the same crap and got nightmare on the very next clear. Then they left afterwards. Is that fair? Cause when you're against options like this, this is the EXACT behavior you're enabling.

That was months ago too and I STILL don't have Nightmare :(

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Honestly ,if this was my party, I would have kicked him on the principle that he snuck in despite what the PF had said. If that wasn't enough, I would have left the party and kicked him on the spot, and proceed to blacklist him for dying to mechanics and being out for the entire fight. It's on partially on the PF leader to take responsibility on this to make sure that doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

No its per class, i had it when i hit 60 on my war it popped up once as a bonus for me in Gardua HM, id never leveled a war until after HW so it was clearly me, i did do HM ages ago for my relic on another class so its class based.

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First-time clear bonuses is per character. You're remembering wrong, unless you server transferred or someone else in the party had bonus.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

No its per class, i had it when i hit 60 on my war it popped up once as a bonus for me in Gardua HM, id never leveled a war until after HW so it was clearly me, i did do HM ages ago for my relic on another class so its class based.

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No I think you'll find its per person.

I have never had a new player bonus when someone has switched jobs to something they haven't cleared it on.

But still the OP should make an alt solution then to ban people from parties, maybe do what i suggested and have a Practice icon or mode.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

But still the OP should make an alt solution then to ban people from parties, maybe do what i suggested and have a Practice icon or mode.

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If people didn't lie there way into parties it wouldn't be a problem and this wouldn't be a suggestion. But it is, and here we are. Although the chances of this getting implemented are super low.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Honestly ,if this was my party, I would have kicked him on the principle that he snuck in despite what the PF had said.

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This.

In my view, the act of lying is far worse than being inexperienced at a fight/class.

Everyone starts out inexperienced and can learn and improve, but trying to shortcut the learning process by exploiting those that have learned already (whether out of laziness or impatience)... that's what makes someone blacklist-worthy.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

But still the OP should make an alt solution then to ban people from parties, maybe do what i suggested and have a Practice icon or mode.

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There's already an option to "ban people from parties" based on their ilvl, and that is much less of an indicator of how good you would perform than having cleared the content previously.

I would support making SSS results publishable in game, so that dps can provide a reason why they should be considered for a farm party without a clear.

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

If people didn't lie there way into parties it wouldn't be a problem and this wouldn't be a suggestion. But it is, and here we are. Although the chances of this getting implemented are super low.

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You seem to assume a farm party requires everyone to have cleared it. Unless you stated in the description must of cleared the fight, they are not actually lying are they?

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

You seem to assume a farm party requires everyone to have cleared it. Unless you stated in the description must of cleared the fight, they are not actually lying are they?

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Sadly, this is what the context of the discussion is, and why the OP requested this to prevent it from happening to begin with.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

You seem to assume a farm party requires everyone to have cleared it. Unless you stated in the description must of cleared the fight, they are not actually lying are they?

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Farm groups commonly include "no bonus" in their descriptions, which is functionally equivalent to saying "must have cleared"

Not a bad idea except that having cleared something does not mean you are any good at it. People can be carried through a lot of content in this game.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

But still the OP should make an alt solution then to ban people from parties, maybe do what i suggested and have a Practice icon or mode.

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Forgive me for asking but what purpose would a practice icon serve that you couldn't put in the PF description?

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Originally Posted by RocheKat

Not a bad idea except that having cleared something does not mean you are any good at it. People can be carried through a lot of content in this game.

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We already went over this some pages back. Having a clear may not mean that you know the fight, but at the very least it guarantees that you've seen the whole thing. If you don't have a clear but feel confident, you can always talk to the party leader. Sneaking into the party without saying anything and going against the PF leader's wishes is not the answer.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Farm groups commonly include "no bonus" in their descriptions, which is functionally equivalent to saying "must have cleared"

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So label it No first timers or must have achievement. Its easy to find their Achievements on the lodestone. If leaders are so bothered they will go and check up on their members. Again i don't see how not having bonus and having a kill means you will instantly be able to farm the fight, ive seen lots ppl constantly screw up who have cleared it many times. Just seems like a waste of time developing this system when perhaps they could add in a practice mode for players to train on, still does the same as ex but they must complete practice mode in order to enter Extreme to farm it.

That way people who wanna be carried can not sneak into a farm group.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

So label it No first timers or must have achievement. Its easy to find their Achievements on the lodestone. If leaders are so bothered they will go and check up on their members. Again i don't see how not having bonus and having a kill means you will instantly be able to farm the fight, ive seen lots ppl constantly screw up who have cleared it many times. Just seems like a waste of time developing this system when perhaps they could add in a practice mode for players to train on, still does the same as ex but they must complete practice mode in order to enter Extreme to farm it.

That way people who wanna be carried can not sneak into a farm group.

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Achievements are hidden by default and when someone does have a bonus the game doesn't say who it is, which wastes everyone's time as they try to figure out who it is. Restricting the PF to people with a clear doesn't guarantee everyone can do it with no mistakes, but those people are more likely to know the fight.

Your suggestion of a practice system is no different from making a learning party saying "new players welcome", while the OP's suggestion guarantees that people without a clear can't join and waste time.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

So label it No first timers or must have achievement. Its easy to find their Achievements on the lodestone. If leaders are so bothered they will go and check up on their members.

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Does it really matter what the terminology is in PF? "No bonus" = "Must have clear"

Not everything people farm has an achievement, and making achievements pubic is disabled by default on the lodestone.

Pretend I'm hiring 7 people to do a job that requires a specific skill set. I post "must have degree and experience in related field." Should I hire anyone that applies for the job, because the education and experience doesn't mean you can perform the job, and lack of education and experience doesn't mean you can't perform it?

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

So label it No first timers or must have achievement. Its easy to find their Achievements on the lodestone. If leaders are so bothered they will go and check up on their members. Again i don't see how not having bonus and having a kill means you will instantly be able to farm the fight, ive seen lots ppl constantly screw up who have cleared it many times. Just seems like a waste of time developing this system when perhaps they could add in a practice mode for players to train on, still does the same as ex but they must complete practice mode in order to enter Extreme to farm it.

That way people who wanna be carried can not sneak into a farm group.

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That's entirely the problem. Even if you do put it up, it doesn't necessarily stop people from sneaking in or lying because there's no hard feature that prevents so. Not to mention achievements are lodestone are hidden by default.

I think a simple solution would be to have getting the win for the first time be an achievement which someone could see on your Lodestone profile. Then if anyone joins, or requests to join a PF group, anyone in the party could simply look that person up on the Lodestone, check out their achievements and if they don't see the achievement for getting the clear for whatever fight the PF is for they can either kick that person from the party or deny them the ability to join.

No need to add coding to the game that checks a character's data to see if they have a clear for a fight and then factors that into whether or not they can join a PF group which requires that they have the clear. This also eliminates the need to add a special option to party finder that would prevent player's who do not have a clear from being able to join. Due to the number of fights available, I can see coding the game to perform the function that is being requested as being quite time consuming and that time could be better spent elsewhere, in my opinion.

It seems that the easier solution would be to have achievements for clears and then the ability for that information to be available on a character's Lodestone profile.

i just see it as even more of a tool to sort of isolate groups but hey it would help in a way, but i also see it will have some bad negatives.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

i just see it as even more of a tool to sort of isolate groups but hey it would help in a way, but i also see it will have some bad negatives.

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It wouldn't isolate it more than it already is. You already have PFs that ask for "no bonus" or "must cleared", anything along the lines. You don't want people being dishonest about that and screwing 7 other people. Even if they were to implement this feature, there's nothing stopping from select people who haven't cleared (but are capable of doing so) from PMing the party leader anyway (which honestly, wouldn't change their stance regardless of if this was implemented or not)

Joining a No bonus group when u havnt cleared is lying yes, joining a farm group who just says Farm/Clear or Farm is not lying as they havnt said No bonus, so why cant they instead of pointing out groups of people who have not cleared it by adding the option no bonus, rather do the same thing but worded differently.

IE Set it to farm group there is a option to set multi runs for loot why cant that check for bonus and not allow. That way a player doesn't instantly feel like they got shunned.

I understand people wanting a no bonus option, but as per a discussion i had earlier with someone that had up a no bonus party, bonus doesn't equal incompetent. Occasionally you'll find your missing some amazingly skilled people by limiting.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Joining a No bonus group when u havnt cleared is lying yes, joining a farm group who just says Farm/Clear or Farm is not lying as they havnt said No bonus, so why cant they instead of pointing out groups of people who have not cleared it by adding the option no bonus, rather do the same thing but worded differently.

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A farm group is there to farm, that is the bottom line. If you know you can farm and still have yet to get a clear send them a message and see if they want to take a chance. If however you have not gotten the clear yet and know you do not have the ability to farm it like the party expects you are just plain rude and deserve to be removed from the group.

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

I understand people wanting a no bonus option, but as per a discussion i had earlier with someone that had up a no bonus party, bonus doesn't equal incompetent. Occasionally you'll find your missing some amazingly skilled people by limiting.

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Its not about people with a clear = 100% clear rate. It is simple facts that there are more people with a clear of something that know what they are doing than those who don't have a clear. Are there some that get carried and don't know what they're doing? of course.

I fully support this. I despise people who try and sneak in farm only parties when they haven't cleared.

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Originally Posted by MugenMugetsu

No need to add coding to the game that checks a character's data to see if they have a clear for a fight and then factors that into whether or not they can join a PF group which requires that they have the clear. This also eliminates the need to add a special option to party finder that would prevent player's who do not have a clear from being able to join. Due to the number of fights available, I can see coding the game to perform the function that is being requested as being quite time consuming and that time could be better spent elsewhere, in my opinion.

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The game must already have a function that checks whether a player has cleared a certain instance (in order to determine whether to show a bonus message) and a function that checks eligibility to join a PF group (in order to check iLvl and whether their job fills an available slot). It would most likely be a simple matter to call the former from the latter.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Joining a No bonus group when u havnt cleared is lying yes, joining a farm group who just says Farm/Clear or Farm is not lying as they havnt said No bonus, so why cant they instead of pointing out groups of people who have not cleared it by adding the option no bonus, rather do the same thing but worded differently.

IE Set it to farm group there is a option to set multi runs for loot why cant that check for bonus and not allow. That way a player doesn't instantly feel like they got shunned.

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And again, in our current state, people are doing the former, bolded statement. The reason behind OP's request is to prevent that from happening.

Well now that I have caught up yes I agree joining a farm without a clear or communicating this is not the best method. I would then point out what we enjoy is playing and clearing content. This kind of fighting doesn't help that, I would suggest if you can set aside time. Teach people, the more people that learn the better and less frustrating the community will be. See Jp servers, I will put together a LS on Ultros to help teach people all the fights. If interested pm me. Good luck other worlds!!! :) (beginners hall 3.2)

I'm surprised by OP calling people without a clear "bonus" while being on a long-time crusade defending bad playstyles on all fronts.

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Originally Posted by Geula

I'm surprised by OP calling people without a clear "bonus" while being on a long-time crusade defending bad playstyles on all fronts.

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I guess it's different when the people he vehemently defends are the ones wasting his time now

Since my last post in this thread, I had a farm group disband because they saw a sneaky bonus.

Thanks bonus sneakers, you've just wasted everyone's time waiting in PF by lying and not saying anything about it! I am especially bitter about this because Healer slots for Ex primals in my server's PF are snatched up very, very quickly. So you just made it so that I couldn't join another farm party because there's no space for another hour or more.

Thanks! I really appreciate your thoughtlessness. It really made my day better.

The entire crux of the issue is new players aren't going to be allowed in the party anyway because in many cases they will cause wipes and waste everyone's time. There's nothing elitist about not wanting your time wasted; everyone's time is valuable.

On a side note, being able to clear SephEx is not necessarily the same as being able to farm him, either. I learned SephEx really well clearing him, but I didn't truly become skilled until I farmed him. There are just little tricks you learn to make yourself more efficient. I actually helped people in clear parties so that I could smooth out everything and be positive I wasn't a burden on anyone as well. When joining parties in PF, you learn which parties to avoid specifically because of this.

Take the chance and ask. The absolute worst that can happen from asking is that you'll get denied. Don't sneak, that's at best rude and at worst a huge time waster for all 8 people involved, yourself included.

I agree with the post a few pages back. This isn't even something that should be a debate at all.

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Originally Posted by MugenMugetsu

No need to add coding to the game that checks a character's data to see if they have a clear for a fight and then factors that into whether or not they can join a PF group which requires that they have the clear.

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There's already code that checks whether or not you've already cleared a fight and if you haven't it pops up a bonus message.

All this would require is a modification to PF so that it's able to access that information.

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It seems that the easier solution would be to have achievements for clears and then the ability for that information to be available on a character's Lodestone profile.

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That information is available on Lodestone profiles, but not every fight has an achievement.

Not to mention, Lodestone profiles are hidden by default.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

There's already code that checks whether or not you've already cleared a fight and if you haven't it pops up a bonus message.

All this would require is a modification to PF so that it's able to access that information.



That information is available on Lodestone profiles, but not every fight has an achievement.

Not to mention, Lodestone profiles are hidden by default.

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Also, who would want to look up everyone's lodestone every time they wanted to farm?

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

Also, who would want to look up everyone's lodestone every time they wanted to farm?

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Pretty much, getting 7 people is already bad enough, but having to manually "background check" them? Ugh.

It'd make me even less likely to farm in PF and just stick to my linkshell/FC.

Clearing doesn't really mean a whole lot. As human beings we all want some binary to know if we will be successful with various people, but I think we all know that we aren't going to get one. Why do we still pretend there is one that exists?

It's like relationships. When people agree to go out on a date with another person, we try to pretend we will get along with someone because we have some common interest and then the date goes horribly. Instead of just chalking it up to a bad pairing, we want to blame it on like "well they don't really like this thing we shared in common, THEY LIED!".... No, not really. Some people just don't work well together. Same thing with party finder. Both people could be good at a fight and just work poorly together. That's just life. If people want to actually succeed, they just keep trying to or they find someone else to play with. I feel the worst for people that just jump from group to group constantly wanting some magic instant win. It's kind of like going on 100 first dates and just hoping for a magical prince charming instead of actually getting to know anyone or actually trying.

Obviously some pairings just aren't going to work no matter how much you try. However, on my server at least, there are a few notorious people that try to form party finder groups and will disband after a single wipe and start another one and just repeat this process for hours. Sometimes it goes horribly wrong and that's all you can do, but for some people, that's all they do regardless.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Joining a No bonus group when u havnt cleared is lying yes, joining a farm group who just says Farm/Clear or Farm is not lying as they havnt said No bonus, so why cant they instead of pointing out groups of people who have not cleared it by adding the option no bonus, rather do the same thing but worded differently.

IE Set it to farm group there is a option to set multi runs for loot why cant that check for bonus and not allow. That way a player doesn't instantly feel like they got shunned.

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im finding it hard to take you serious when you play word games with peoples pf descriptions. farm group typically have all people who have cleared and can reliably kill said thing multiple times, hence, farm group. all you are doing is trying to justify lying by saying its not lying because someone didnt put "no bonus", but they had farm party as the pf.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Clearing doesn't really mean a whole lot. As human beings we all want some binary to know if we will be successful with various people, but I think we all know that we aren't going to get one. Why do we still pretend there is one that exists?

It's like relationships. When people agree to go out on a date with another person, we try to pretend we will get along with someone because we have some common interest and then the date goes horribly. Instead of just chalking it up to a bad pairing, we want to blame it on like "well they don't really like this thing we shared in common, THEY LIED!".... No, not really. Some people just don't work well together. Same thing with party finder. Both people could be good at a fight and just work poorly together. That's just life. If people want to actually succeed, they just keep trying to or they find someone else to play with. I feel the worst for people that just jump from group to group constantly wanting some magic instant win. It's kind of like going on 100 first dates and just hoping for a magical prince charming instead of actually getting to know anyone or actually trying.

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Maybe its just because Im tired, or maybe its the way you worded it, but none of what you said actually made sense to me at all.

I should work on getting to know people im farming with? Why?

My suggestion to you is to use a static party to clear content and challenge content.

This is the main Reason I don't use PF for any content but clear new or challenging content but do it with FC/LS members.

One FC member is part of World clear groups.
They turn around and normally Train the rest of us to clear content.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Maybe its just because Im tired, or maybe its the way you worded it, but none of what you said actually made sense to me at all.

I should work on getting to know people im farming with? Why?

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Not really just like, some people are going to work well, some are not. I just mean, it's about trying to figure out which is which. Figuring that out requires like some small bit of watching who is doing what. If you have to kick someone from a group, kick them. Maybe people find it easier to just disband rather than kick people from a failing party finder group. I just think it's kind of a waste of time to completely start over when something can be salvaged. I see leaders just purge groups and start over and over for hours in party finder... It's always like that one name looking for members for hours, with harsher and harsher messages in the comment field as the night wears on so i suppose they aren't getting anywhere.

Also, if you are going to farm something for a few hours with some random people, does it hurt to have some communication going on or getting to know them? Most of the good farm groups in party finder I've been in lasted a while.

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Not really just like, .

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On the disband rather than kick point, I've been in some farms where the leader quote "felt uncomfortable kicking just the one/two failing people and decided to just abandon it" so that may explain some of the disbands.

On another note, a lot of the PF asking for clears do so in order to avoid "having to watch who is doing what" as lets face it, more people with clears know what they are doing than those without. Im sure some take this to the extreme and ask for all sort of things but I feel asking just for a clear is not too much to ask for.

Sure if you don't have the clear yet you could send a tell to the leader explaining your situation but the amount of people without a clear and something on farm status is incredibly slim to almost none.

Imagine you make a PF looking for a melee job and someone joins on MNK, but switches to MCH without saying anything. You would be disappointed to find you entered the raid one melee shy. You might also be a little upset with the guy who deceived you.

Well, let's suppose you put in the PF comment "no bonus message, please" and you enter the raid with a bonus message in your face. You would be disappointed, and perhaps a little upset that one or more people deceived you--or can't read at least.

PF leader sets the conditions for the party. If you want the conditions to change, just ask the leader. You have nothing to gain by very obviously tricking the party; you will instantly sour everyone's first impression of you and risk getting your butt kicked out of future parties on sight.

I don't know how the forums made this so complicated.