[spoilers]3.2 MSQ Discussion/Reaction thread

I wasn't assuming it was a constant drain, I see it as something of a pool to be drawn upon (probably mostly inadvertently) when necessary. And we definitely used it at the end of 3.0.

But still, our Blessing was strengthened to much greater heights at the end of 3.0, by word of Best Ascian. I think we have Minfilia's sacrifice to thank for that. So yes, I would say we were using her lifeforce to strengthen ourselves, because by the time you reach Antitower, she doesn't have any strength remaining again.

I may need to go back and check 3.0 cutscenes, but I could have sworn the Blessing was referred to similarly as the Echo. As in, we'd learned how to use it to better effect after regaining it, rather than it growing stronger as more aether was pumped into it (by Hydaelyn or Minfilia).

Come to think of it, wouldn't be be minus a Blessing right now if it worked any other way? Hydaelyn is completely spent, we've got nothing left to draw upon if that is how it works... Given Matoya's Crystal Eye is a Crystal of Light, and still has aether, I'm incline to view the Blessing as more of an aether battery in the form of a full host of Crystals of Light. Could make for an interesting transition into 4.0... We surrender our Blessing to empower Hydaelyn again in 3.55, giving us 4.0 without such a silly concept (works if we carry on to 4.0 from 2.55 as well, since we were minus a Blessing at that point, too).

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I mean sure, sacrificing Minfilia isn't nice, but it seems more like an act of desperation to me... How the Scions react is questionable, but I can hardly fault Hydaelyn for that, and I can hardly complain at Hydaelyn sacrificing one person, when Ascians have a body count beyond counting...

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Our body count is not small, either, sorry. Not calamitous, sure, but we haven't been at it as long. There is a difference between what the Ascians do and what Hydaelyn did, and what Hydaelyn did is worse. For the Ascians, killing humans is no different than killing those claimed by a primal: just part of the war. Hydaelyn more or less ate her most loyal follower. When a villain proves how evil they are by killing one of their minions once they've served their purpose? This is that. It just happened to be the "good guys" doing it, so we want to make excuses.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Which means perhaps there was a way all along for Rejoining to take place without the massive death toll that resets humanity.

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Maybe, but I'm not sure what it would then take.

According to WOTM, "Across ten and three were we then divided. Reflections of the Source, each possessed of a shard. They seek to tear down the barriers which surround the Source. Thus do they rejoice in their Ardor - in your calamities - for each marks a Rejoining."

Assuming their goal of bringing Zodiark and Hydaelyn back together remains the same, how would one get through barriers without breaking them, or without causing massive destruction, death, and chaos first?

Then again...we've done exactly that, in a couple different ways. We made it through Garuda's winds by creating a counter, and again at Azys Lla by creating essentially a spear to break a hole. Now while the second could be considered to be a small scale version of the Calamities (event happens, triggers collapse of the entire thing as a result)...this almost certain a crack pot theory, but what if a certain someone plans to use us as the benign counter that can pass through the barrier without destroying it, thus getting to what is inside?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Our body count is not small, either, sorry. Not calamitous, sure, but we haven't been at it as long. There is a difference between what the Ascians do and what Hydaelyn did, and what Hydaelyn did is worse. For the Ascians, killing humans is no different than killing those claimed by a primal: just part of the war. Hydaelyn more or less ate her most loyal follower. When a villain proves how evil they are by killing one of their minions once they've served their purpose? This is that. It just happened to be the "good guys" doing it, so we want to make excuses.

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This also ties in with Hydaelyn's approach of shielding Krile and letting everybody else perish back in Val. I know I keep going on about it but...it's just really, really dubious. We can't save everybody, sure, but if given the choice how many lives would the Scions/WoL cast aside in favour of saving one individual?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Hydaelyn more or less ate her most loyal follower. When a villain proves how evil they are by killing one of their minions once they've served their purpose? This is that. It just happened to be the "good guys" doing it, so we want to make excuses.

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Is it? What was Hydaelyn trying to prove by having Minfilia sacrificed? All I'm seeing is an act of sheer desperation, she couldn't even muster the power to whisk Minfilia off herself, she had to hijack Flow. All this was done simply to come into contact with us again, since she didn't even have the power for that anymore... It's certainly regrettable, but given she got cut off mid sentence as it is, it's probably best that she didn't waste any time apologizing for the obvious dick move.

I mean really... Lets forget any agenda Hydaelyn or Elidibus might have... Who benefits from Minfilia being sacrificed exactly? I'd say Elidibus, he benefits from the grief we should feel, it makes for a more compelling argument for us not to trust Hydaelyn, we wouldn't even be having this conversation were that not the case. Either Hydaelyn and Elidibus are in cahoots, or this was simply just a final desperate attempt on Hydaelyns part... By her own account she'd been failing for eras...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

This also ties in with Hydaelyn's approach of shielding Krile and letting everybody else perish back in Val. I know I keep going on about it but...it's just really, really dubious. We can't save everybody, sure, but if given the choice how many lives would the Scions/WoL cast aside in favour of saving one individual?

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It's a simple case of Hydaelyn being drained... She no longer has any power left, after Praetorium she wasn't even able to communicate with us anymore. Lahabrea very much succeeded in what he set out to do with Ultima. Protecting Krile (which given Krile was knocked out for all this time, seems like a significant step down from the protection we received) and telling Minfilia to run back where last ditch efforts to get us to come find her ourselves; Krile had the knowledge to figure everything out, and she knew we'd come looking for Minfilia. It was seemingly the only method of contacting us left available to her... She even failed in that arguably, I don't really feel any the wiser for our (final?) meeting... She ran out of power before telling us what to do next...

I think the "We have no choice" repitition is getting to be played out, which is why Hydelyn's desperation is becoming more and more, yet people are finding it less tolerable. The negative consequences born of hijacking Minfillia body and soul will be why some will start to doubt Hydelyn's actions.
some just are weary of the whole matter, or are not convinced annihilating the Ascians is really the way to do it.
Derplander's presence doesn't clear the waters any.

Either way, Minfillia's fate is the sort of thing I'd rather not endorse. as they say: "It gets easier after the first time."

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think the "We have no choice" repitition is getting to be played out, which is why Hydelyn's desperation is becoming more and more, yet people are finding it less tolerable. The negative consequences born of hijacking Minfillia body and soul will be why some will start to doubt Hydelyn's actions.
some just are weary of the whole matter, or are not convinced annihilating the Ascians is really the way to do it.

Either way, Minfillia's fate is the sort of thing I'd rather not endorse. as they say: "It gets easier after the first time."

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I agree.
While Minfilia's fate is an unfortunate, horrible thing that I am not trying to romanticize, I will admit I am rather pleased at the ambiguity it adds to Hydaelyn in general.

When your close friend is reduced to being a doll mouthpiece for your Goddess, you kind of have to step back and take a look at the situation and I appreciate that SE is going in that direction, narratively.

Oh I'm not endorsing it, I just don't see what Hydaelyn gets out of this... Aside from telling us "important" information, all that has been achieved is casting some significant doubt on the path we've been following... Elidibus could waltz out and go "I told you you'd agree with me if you knew! If you'd joined us sooner Minifilia would still be here!" and he'd be right.

She burnt up Minfilia to get a whole minute of dialog with us, and then she ran out of power... What is the "evil" implication here? She hasn't sacrificed Minfilia and gained more power, she's sacrificed Minfilia and failed to enlighten or guide us further... She hasn't gone "Hey, bring me more people to burn up so I can keep going!", she didn't even have the power to take Minfilia herself, she had to "trick" Minfilia into this scenario, how is she going to do that again if sacrifices are the new norm for her?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Oh I'm not endorsing it, I just don't see what Hydaelyn gets out of this... Aside from telling us "important" information, all that has been achieved is casting some significant doubt on the path we've been following... Elidibus could waltz out and go "I told you you'd agree with me if you knew! If you'd joined us sooner Minifilia would still be here!" and he'd be right.

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You amused me with gloating Elidibus, so take my like.

My crackpot thought on the bolded is that Hydaelyn can't resist the Echo, either. You were right there, directly communicating her, expecting answers regarding Minfilia and she has none to give save the truth. She couldn't directly push you away because of the Echo until she completely lacked the strength to sustain you, essentially doing the Mothercrystal equivalent of passing out. I guess I'm trying to say you were "invading" her, much like you "invade" someone's memories.

Edit for clarification: The Antitower was different, because, unlike other times, where she initiates communication with you, you initiated communication with her. And with the Echo probing her like that, she was unable to push you away.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Edit for clarification: The Antitower was different, because, unlike other times, where she initiates communication with you, you initiated communication with her. And with the Echo probing her like that, she was unable to push you away.

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She did push us away though... She used the very last of her strength to send us back to "the shore of the aetherial sea", I imagine we'd have been trapped there as Minfilia was were it not for that...

It's a very elaborate scheme if this is anything but a last desperate attempt to have us stop the Rejoining... There is more ammunition for us to sign up with the Ascians here, well... There would be if the Ascians weren't so painfully evil all the time... Except Elidibus of course, but he obviously is a schemer... Granted, we only know that through cutscene hacks, so far we have no idea he had the Warriors of Darkness sitting on the sidelines waiting for this, nor any idea he was involved with Thordan, or even than he is whispering sweet nothings in Uriangers ear...

That's what I meant by "the Mothercrystal equivalent of passing out."

I don't think Hydaelyn wanted us to contact Her directly like that, even if only out of love and worry for us. She clearly didn't have the strength to sustain it. But we barged in anyway, against her will, because it's within our power to do so.

Didn't get the chance to write a full reaction this time, unfortunetly. Garland Tools updated with newest MSQs, and the journals for such contains an important clarification on what Alphinaud meant when he said we 'didn't know the full story.'

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Reminded of the Antecedent's plight, Alphinaud ponders what could have motivated her to go to such lengths to deliver so curious a message.

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Make of that what you will.

It's also been hinted via Tataru that we can still get Minfilia back somehow. My current guess is that this will involve restoring at least some of Hydaelyn's strength, so she can talk to us on her own again and will no longer need Minfilia as a mouthpiece.

Another quick note, Aymeric technically has 'quest immunity', due to a certain culinary leve:

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Temple Knights First Commander Ser Lucia

The lord commander is a remarkably modest man, and shirks the fine cuisines of the capital, instead choosing to break the same bread as any common soldier. The one pleasure to which he indulges is a dash of rich birch syrup in his morning tea, ever so subtly. He may complain if he were to know of my intention, but given the immense burden he carries, I would give him naught but the most exquisite syrup.

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So I'm about 85% he's not going to die.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

It's been a long time since I screamed at a character for anything in any game/anime. I wasn't expecting Estinien to show up so soon and dive on Vidofnir's back....NOOOOO HOW COULD YOU!!!??? Although it was actually Nidhogg's doing, he almost runied everything that the meeting stood for.

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I'm not sure he did. Consider that one of the reasons that the maid and her band tried to disturb the conference was because they believed that the Dravanians had no interest in peace at all and that it was all a trick. Nidhogg gored the Dravanian emissary in front of a crowd of Ishgardians, the conference may not have gone entirely according to plan but Nidhogg's actions demonstrated very clearly to the people of Ishgard that not all Dravanians share the same ideals.

The crowd wasn't chanting "Death to the dragons," they were chanting "Death to Nidhogg."

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Oh I'm not endorsing it, I just don't see what Hydaelyn gets out of this...

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Is it not obvious? She was able to tell us only what matters most: that the Darkness must be pushed back, and the Ascians defeated. There is no hidden meaning in what Hydaelyn has said to us, because as far as She is concerned, what she has commanded is the most important conflict in the universe. She is desperate, willing to go to any length, put all her chips on the board, because if the final Rejoining takes place everything is over. As far as She is concerned.

But that's the thing: for all we've learned, we still have no idea what we're actually fighting against. It seems to me that Hydaelyn has gone full-on Bhunivelze on us. She doesn't wish anyone ill per se (besides the Darkness), but She simply has no grasp of the drives that make us human. We don't even know if the Darkness is something that ever needed to be banished at all, or if the entire struggle was simply born from a misguided ideal and perpetuated endlessly for no other reason than to justify the cost.

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Originally Posted by Harz

*snip*

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I second this. The attack was very important in showing the Ishgardians that there is an internal divide within the dragons. And as one crowdmember said, "So long as that dragon is around, we shall never know peace!' And the thing is he's right.

After that fiasco, I'm predicting about a 50% chance that Hraesvelgar is going to get involved now. On one hand, his feelings towards humans aside, Nidhogg nearly killed one of his children. (Most of the dragons in Alyx Trine are implied to be more indirectly related to Hraesvelgar. But Vidofnir calls him 'Father', and it's been pretty much stated he directly sired her.) If Hraesvelgar has any love for Vidofnir, Nidhogg's actions should be a screaming red flag of just *how* far gone he is. One that has a fair chance of kicking Hraesvelgar out of his 'uninvolved/neutral' stance.

I know what im going to said is vague and I could be very well wrong. But based on the picture of 3.2

I suspect Minfilia could not be totaly dead. Could be situation of "her life is now chain to the fate of the mother cristal"? If she died, so too will Minfilia?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

*snip*

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Discussions of Hydaelyn's morality aside, the simple fact is that the Ascians' are responsible for the Calamities that with the exception of the last one have wiped *entire civilizations* off the map. Lahabrea even says that massive death and destruction is required to fulfill the Ascians' goals. It's also stated by Elidibius that Lahabrea sought to initiate another Rejoining during Heavensward a.k.a another Calamity.

And it's heavily implied that if Louisoix hadn't intervened as he had, the last Calamity via Bahamut would have wiped out all life in Eorzea. Heck, even before Dalamund cracked open, it's said its crash would have obliterated Eorzea anyway, hence why we resorted to summoning the Twelve.

I found the transcript for one of Seventh Umbral Era 1.0 quests on FFXIV Gamerescape. Here's a relevant quote:

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Thancred: Summoning them would be tantamount to bleeding the life out of the land. Yet without their aid, Eorzea is most assuredly doomed.

Thancred: Dalamud will fall, and the land will die. Even should aether still flow, life may never again blossom here.

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Say what you will about Hydaelyn, but at least she's not trying to kill us all. In fact, she's actively trying to prevent that. You can say some of her actions are questionable. But given the choice between a debateably-manipulative goddess who, with the exception of Minfilia (and even then, it's implied that was an act of sheer desperation), has done nothing but help and guide us, and the servants of a god explictly looking to wipe out the people of Eorzea...Yeah, I'm siding with the goddess on this one.

I don't trust Hydaelyn one damn bit. I didn't like Minfilla much to begin with but seriously what is left of minfilla now? she's just a damn puppet in my eyes now.

I don't know. I'm not getting the diabolical vibe from Hydaelyn. I mean she's been telling us from the beginning to hear, feel, think, and now seek; that's not something one tends to do when one is trying to pull a fast one. Start telling people to do that and you can't be all that surprised when they do, or all that shocked when/if they uncover your schemes. As for Minfilia, well, she had the opportunity to say no when we were fleeing Ul'dah. When Hydaelyn spoke to her, Minfilia said no then waited a bit then told us to go on without her and ran back to get caught up in Flow. That was her choice and one she didn't have to make. She could have said no and just continued on with us if she had wanted to but, for whatever reason, she didn't.

Once she was in the aetherial sea if Hydaelyn had wanted to subsume her so badly why didn't she just nab Minfilia when she arrived? Why did she wait until Minfilia offered herself up? This seems to hint, to me at least, that there are somethings Hydaelyn can't do. Whether these are self imposed restrictions or not I don't know, but considering how desperate she is she didn't pounce on Minfilia like a spider on a fly the moment she hit the aetherial sea.

Also, I'm wondering if the line "The crystal's power is all but spent" is referring to the one we were holding when we transported into the aetherial sea?

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

Yeah, I'm siding with the goddess on this one.

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Okay. Please die. It's for the greater good, and your sacrifice will inspire the others to carry on in your place. Actually, may need Y'shtola and Thancred while we're at it. Still a smaller sacrifice than the death toll that will occur if the Ascians win, so no problem, right?

Hydaelyn ate Minfilia. She didn't stop to ask us, we didn't even know she needed someone as her voice until she had already made her pick. And now Minfilia's gone, just like that, because it was necessary. Forgive me for not being comfortable with that on principle.

I'm not suddenly switching sides, or killing civilians, or eating babies by the dozen to keep my friends alive at the cost of all else. I just want a chance to talk things out properly with the people I'm supposed to be killing. I just want to be able to protect the world knowing the people I choose to fight for will still be in it when I'm done.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Okay. Please die. It's for the greater good, and your sacrifice will inspire the others to carry on in your place. Actually, may need Y'shtola and Thancred while we're at it. Still a smaller sacrifice than the death toll that will occur if the Ascians win, so no problem, right?

Hydaelyn ate Minfilia. She didn't stop to ask us, we didn't even know she needed someone as her voice until she had already made her pick. And now Minfilia's gone, just like that, because it was necessary. Forgive me for not being comfortable with that on principle.

I'm not suddenly switching sides, or killing civilians, or eating babies by the dozen to keep my friends alive at the cost of all else. I just want a chance to talk things out properly with the people I'm supposed to be killing. I just want to be able to protect the world knowing the people I choose to fight for will still be in it when I'm done.

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Sure, we talk things out with Ascians, and they inform us what we already know: That they need to kill countless people and wreak cataclysmic (literally) havoc in order to initiate the Rejoining. We have been given literally no reason to believe their eventual goal is anything less. Or that there is any other way to achieve what they want. So the people you fight for are likely going to be dead anyway.

And Minfilia isn't dead. I'm fairly sure of this. She's just become part of Hydaelyn for the time being, because the Mothercrystal is now so weak that she can't even communicate with us properly. There some strong hints, notably Tataru's dialogue, that Minfilia will eventually be released from service. It's also stated that Minfilia more or less chose this path. After all, it's been shown that she's deeply spiritual and highly devoted to the Mothercrystal. Most people like that will very willingly give themselves up to help their deity, especially if the life of the latter depended on it. Doubly so if they are not actually dying. Hm, I'm not really articulating my point well here...

In the face of perceived oblivion, you can justify about anything, it seems. At any rate, I am seeing it more and more likely for some of the Scions to justify act that they would have once called others out for, almost in the vein of FFVIIs AVALANCHE. I hope we don't fall into it ourselves, since we're holding to the idea that Minfillia's vision was, and should be, more than that.

On a completely separate topic

Did we seriously just pull a Nanamo? You'd think the WOL would be suspicious of drinks given to them by a kindly maid at this point

The WoL can't really afford to be suspicious of every single person that they encounter though.

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

Another quick note, Aymeric technically has 'quest immunity', due to a certain culinary leve...So I'm about 85% he's not going to die.

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There is also the fact that he is in the Allience representing Ishgard, which would be a might higher amount of plot armor, especially if an Ishgardian grand company happens (And it's unlikely that Lolorito's machinations would affect that, though there is other sources of corruption)

Well...given that a major criticism of the ending of 2.0 was the amount of plot armour protecting major characters I'd like to think that the developers have taken it on board and won't just grant characters immunity to death just because they're tied to certain quests. Otherwise it's just going to become very predictable as to who will perish and who may end up living through everything. 4.0 is also supposedly going to be completely separate from 3.0 so it's very likely that many characters from 3.0 won't show up at all.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

4.0 is also supposedly going to be completely separate from 3.0 so it's very likely that many characters from 3.0 won't show up at all.

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I keep hearing this. What I've heard is that the 3.x quests just won't be required to reach 4.0 content, but there's going to be a 'Digest Mode' so you can read about what happened in HW and 2.x. In other words, 4.0 will still be a continuation of 3.x's story, you just won't have to experience said story to reach the new content

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I don't think Hydaelyn wanted us to contact Her directly like that, even if only out of love and worry for us.

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She wanted us there. This whole thing was set up to tell us what she told us, she knew full well that we'd eventually coming looking for Minifilia ("Though time and space hast thou journeyed unto me... as I knew thou wouldst."), that's why she had Minfilia get caught up in Flow. It's why Krile was saved, so we had someone talented enough to help us get there.

Nothing in the cutscene implied she was surprised to see us, rather she was expecting us... Heck, we were in Antitower when she called out to us, we didn't barge in, we battled our way to the "shore" of the aetherial sea, close enough that she could draw us in for a little chat, and then she sent us back.

I get that sacrificing Minfilia is bad, but what were the alternatives? Do nothing and let Elidibus have free reign to give His account of events? I don't actually see a good alternative here, I'm certainly not looking upon Hydaelyn with doubt now... All this has done is hammer home than she's at the end of her rope... Weak... Desperate... I'm certainly not looking at past events and questioning her now... It comes pretty close to victim blaming... Instead of thinking "Why did she only save Krile?" one should be thinking "Why did Nabriales nuke Val?". That is what we're dealing with her... An organization which ruthlessly nuked an entire island and a deity that could barely save one person (Krile was knocked out for how long exactly?). Hydaelyn sacrificing Minfilia is an act of sheer desperation, there is no indication that this is the norm for Hydaelyn, nor any indication that she wants us to bring her more orphans to eat. This was a regrettable, one time thing... Hydaelyn isn't suddenly some shady deity for this transgression...

Hmm, if that's what she said, that's my mistake. I admit to watching the scenes at about 4am.

However, I do have to side with Fenral on the reason why. She seemed to want to guide us in the direction of banishing darkness. I believe how vague she was is the same thing as the short Echo scene with the WoDs from 3.1. It's SE leaking knowledge to the player slowly, teasing us with tidbits, but only just enough so that the universe's secrets aren't all revealed at once. And it comes off badly.

I'm actually wondering how this scene is intended to be interpreted, because I don't know if we're "supposed" to view it as a good thing to blindly follow your Goddess when she uses your friend as a mouthpiece, simply because she's your Goddess and "desperate."

Also, I'm of mind that it doesn't matter if Minfilia is alive, Hydaelyn did what Hydaelyn did, it can't really be defended. Do you know who is also alive?

Roundrox. And she's being literally mind raped upon the Illuminati's will. Are we going to suddenly forgive the Illuminati for that, even if they turn around and decide to shut down Alexander because we ask nicely?

It shocks me that anyone can even think Minfilia being alive makes Hydaelyn's actions suddenly "okay."

Edit: Referring mostly to Alisa with this.

The only thing Hydaelyn is really guilty of here is some emotional manipulation, not that that is a good thing...

Minfilia was a willing offering. Hydaelyn didn't abduct her and force her will upon her, she told Minfilia something (perhaps just "Go back to Y'shtola", perhaps a more detailed explanation, we don't know), Minfilia willingly turned around. Then she was trapped in the aetherial sea, Hydaelyn silent once more, and Minfilia willingly prayed for our salvation and made on offering of herself.

JustAsPlanned.jpg for Hydaelyn, which is where things get a bit muddled, but it is a lot more gentle than forcing yourself on someone who is resisting... If Minfilia survives, what would the damage be? What emotional scars would she have? It's not like she was tortured by Hydaelyn... She didn't know what happened to us or the Scions, or Nanamo, if she survives I imagine she'd be thankful that her prays were answers... That ain't great either, but that is more an issue with her (and the Scions) outlook, rather than Hydaelyn... If I walked a possession off, I'd be going "Lets not do that again please", not "Thank you!", I can accept said possession as a desperate act when there was no other choice, but I certainly can't accept just blindly being happy about it...

Yes, because temporarily removing someone's individuality out of desperation is doing 'nothing' to her.

I don't think I'm going to agree with you on that. Ever. That's not okay.

I'm gonna take the middle of the road here.

Yes Hydaelyn is getting desperate, but does it excuse her luring her most devoted follower into certain doom and using her as a mouthpiece in a batman gambit? Answer: No. In this I agree with Lucifer, Cilla and Fenral

That said, I'm of the opinion that we need both sides of the story. That we should be question why did the Ascians wiped Val off the map and why did out of all the potential echo users there, did Hydealyn choose to save only Krile? We shouls also ask what would Hydealyn do if we returned The Crystal (Ball) of Light that currently resides in Matoya's cave, and what would Elidibus and the Warriors of Darkness do if we decided to join them. As well as what the entities in question would do if we refused.

At this point I'm gonna say that both crystals should be suspected of dishonesty and Machiavellian plotting, and not to be taken at face vaule without the proper context. We are ultimately a piece of a cosmic chess game, but the possibility that we might choose to have a say in how this match goes might occur.

As for the Scions, I feel like this quote is appropriate:

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." — Friedrich Nietzsche,

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Roundrox. And she's being literally mind raped upon the Illuminati's will. Are we going to suddenly forgive the Illuminati for that, even if they turn around and decide to shut down Alexander because we ask nicely?

It shocks me that anyone can even think Minfilia being alive makes Hydaelyn's actions suddenly "okay."

Edit: Referring mostly to Alisa with this.

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The two things you are comparing aren't the same though. You are overlooking the fact that Minfilia chose to run back. She didn't have to. She could have left with us because after all if Hydaelyn was at all the vengeful sort, considering how weak she was/is, what could she have done to Minfilia if Min had decided to say, hell no, and leave with us? It's fine and all to disagree with Minfilia's choice but what has happened to her isn't equivalent at all to your other example.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Yes, because temporarily removing someone's individuality out of desperation is doing 'nothing' to her.

I don't think I'm going to agree with you on that. Ever. That's not okay.

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I'm not saying it's OK... I'm saying it is far more gentle to have a willing host than it is to forcibly fight someones individuality to occupy them...

There is a big difference between occupying a willing host, and effectively mind raping someone, IMO at least...

Hell... While we're on the subject of hosts... We do all remember how the Ascians operate, right? Forget body counts, how many free wills have Ascians stepped on for their goals?

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Did she now?

Do you remember what Minfilia said?

"No!"

I could argue just as much that she didn't want to run back, but felt the pressure of her responsibility to do so. That's still unwilling coercion.

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We have no idea what Hydaelyn told Minfilia... "No!" could be the result of any number of revelations...

"Y'shtola is casting Flow", "No! (That's stupid, I better go stop her)".
"Thancred took an arrow to the knee", "No! (That meme needs to die!)".
"Yo, I'm dying, please help... Y'shtola will send you to me...", "No! (You can't die!)"
etc. etc.

It's a shame we don't get a detailed account of what happened there... Minfilia could have been worried about Hydaelyn and only hesitated to say farewell to us, or she could have hesitated because she felt pressured... We just don't know...

What's done is done though... We can argue the morality of it all we like, but it isn't going to change anything. What matters is where we go forward from this... Hydaelyn body-jacking one person leaves a bitter taste in ones mouth, but it's still nothing compared to what the Ascians have done over the eras...

Perhaps the only one in the right here is Alphinaud, seeing as he seems set to resolve on finding a better way. Hydaelyn has sacrificed one person when pushed to the brink. The Ascians have sacrificed countless people for their goals. If one is in the wrong, both are. Whether we like her or not after this though, Hydaelyn is still our "Mother", even if we forge our own path, I can't imagine it being one in which we take her our with Zodiark... Worst case Minfilia comes back and everyone thanks Hydaelyn like chumps, best case we become estranged from our "Mother". Either way I think we're going to have to take out Ascians... I can't think of anything they can say which would justify what they've done up to this point... These are the people who got Tiamat to summon Bahamut so they could get the Allag to harness him so eras later they could drop Bahamut back on Hydaelyn for another Rejoining, killing countless people in the process... There is no real way to twist that into some greater good... Hydaelyn using one person as a chess piece (or a handful, if you count us/Krile/the Scions) pales in comparison to the number of pawns the Ascians have moved about over the course of all history...

Honestly, an Ascian account of things isn't going to change anything IMO. I'm interested in hearing it, naturally, but they're still evil moonmen... I mostly want to know what the moon used to be like... We have a statue of Zodiark on it... Was there once a moonmen civilization? I'm sure if there was, the Ascians would spin a "It's Hydaelyns fault!" on it, but I still have very little reason to trust them... I'm incline to accept Hydaelyns "Zodiark coveted power" statement, and assume the moon is lifeless for the same reason Hinterlands should be by now... Big old Primal sucking it dry...

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Originally Posted by greyfurr

You are overlooking the fact that Minfilia chose to run back. She didn't have to.

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Did she now?

Do you remember what Minfilia said?

"No!"

I could argue just as much that she didn't want to run back, but felt the pressure of her responsibility to do so. That's still unwilling coercion.

Edit to Nalien:
Or maybe even: "No! I can't leave! There's still so much I have to do! (but I must)"
"No! If I leave, what of my responsibilities?"

Or maybe even

"No! I still want to live!" (and this should never, ever be vilified).

It's as you said. We don't know.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Did she now?

Do you remember what Minfilia said?

"No!"

I could argue just as much that she didn't want to run back, but felt the pressure of her responsibility to do so.

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But she did run back. She didn't have to. Nothing was forcing her to. It was an action she chose to make. Right, wrong, or otherwise she chose to run back when she could have left with us without suffering any repercussions from the Mother Crystal. Regardless as to whether or not she felt pressured by responsibility she still could have said no but chose not to. Like I said you can disagree with the choice but you can't really equate it to your other example.

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Originally Posted by greyfurr

But she did run back. She didn't have to. Nothing was forcing her to. It was an action she chose to make. Right, wrong, or otherwise she chose to run back when she could have left with us without suffering any repercussions from the Mother Crystal. Regardless as to whether or not she felt pressured by responsibility she still could have said no but chose not to. Like I said you can disagree with the choice but you can't really equate it to your other example.

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Yeah, you're not getting this. I don't want to strawman it, but there are many, many, many real life examples of such "choices" that are not "choices" at all.

When adequate pressure is put upon you, it's an obligation. Minfilia never had a choice. She viewed it as a necessity. That's what I take issue with.

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Originally Posted by Alisa180

Sure, we talk things out with Ascians, and they inform us what we already know: That they need to kill countless people and wreak cataclysmic (literally) havoc in order to initiate the Rejoining. We have been given literally no reason to believe their eventual goal is anything less. Or that there is any other way to achieve what they want. So the people you fight for are likely going to be dead anyway.

And Minfilia isn't dead. I'm fairly sure of this. She's just become part of Hydaelyn for the time being, because the Mothercrystal is now so weak that she can't even communicate with us properly. There some strong hints, notably Tataru's dialogue, that Minfilia will eventually be released from service. It's also stated that Minfilia more or less chose this path. After all, it's been shown that she's deeply spiritual and highly devoted to the Mothercrystal. Most people like that will very willingly give themselves up to help their deity, especially if the life of the latter depended on it. Doubly so if they are not actually dying. Hm, I'm not really articulating my point well here...

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We actually... don't know that's all they'd tell us. That's all you want to take from it, OK, but we should have both sides of the story before we decide on a course of action. While we know what they want, but not why or the whole story behind the split of Light and Dark. All we got from Hydaelyn was "I banished Zodiark because he wanted more power;" that is extremely simplistic and severely lacking in detail. In this game, it's never that simple. We don't have the whole story yet, and while I have no intention of joining the Ascians or sacrificing anyone, it wouldn't hurt to hear them out.

While Tataru is optimistic we'll get Minfilia back... we don't know if that's even possible, and if it is, when she will be freed. Hydaelyn called her expecting Minfilia to sacrifice herself, more or less... and we have yet to know if Hydaelyn can even regain power, since it's been 5 years and change since the Calamity and nothing points to her regaining or growing in strength. Elidibus hints that we may be succeeding after our defeat of Thordan. Either way, even if she did so willingly, Minfilia has been robbed of her independence and even her very identity... should we be okay with that because it's for the "greater good?"

How many people have to be sacrificed before it's enough? How many people have to become fuel for the fire? At what point does the death stop?

Blindly believing Hydaelyn and following the path she has laid out for us has led to this. If we're to carve our own path, one unpaved by the bodies of the dead, then we need to stop blindly believing and following her word. Stop following Hydaelyn's plan and create the future that we want - a future with a place in it for everyone.

Is that a selfish wish born of naive idealism? Perhaps. Still, one of humanity's most noble traits is the refusal to accept something as absolutely necessary and instead seek a better way. Foolish, perhaps, but noble all the same.

I'm rambling. Point is, it didn't have to be this way, and the sacrifices don't have to continue if we strike out and pave our own way. We may fail, but at least we tried instead of just accepting sacrifices as necessary to keep hope alive.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Yeah, you're not getting this. I don't want to strawman it, but there are many, many, many real life examples of such "choices" that are not "choices" at all.

When adequate pressure is put upon you, it's an obligation. Minfilia never had a choice. She viewed it as a necessity. That's what I take issue with.

This honestly may be another one of those cultural issues surrounding storytelling, like 2.55's passive acceptance of authority.

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What kind of cultural issues? If you don't mind my asking?

I can give a personal example of similar choice if you would like. You can decide if it's a good example or not.