Live Letter 3.2 tank changes, vit effects tank attack

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

This means I'm going to have to heal the tank more in order to cap them because their HP pool has increased but my heals don't scale with it. :B

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Only if you let them drop more than you could safely let a STR tank drop. So, same amount of healing overall but longer intervals in and out of CS.

Also, you could try to minimize overhealing by not capping your big-HP-tank. This means less heal casts, more dps.

Actually the higher HP goes the more disparity for scholar heals. I guess they are the real losers for all of this. Emergency tactics should have been more like divine seal to actually be useful in an emergency, maybe even +15% cure pot and +15% galvanize... Then dissipation becomes irrelevant. I don't even like the idea of using that one, unless you can spare a swiftcast to resummon after. Then you won't be able to raise while its down. Tough call.

/thread derail.

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Originally Posted by Altijacek

Why do people say strength tanks are squishy? Vit tanks can be just as squishy. Maybe even more.

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A lot of STR tanks stay out of tank stance more than VIT tanks, and often use less cool-downs (often either thinking they're godly for being STR tanks and too good for mitigation, or expecting their heals to carry them). Both of which will make them squishier.

Granted, a lot of VIT tanks are newer, so just aren't as geared or as good (which is where their squishiness comes from). But geared VIT tanks tend to be more conservative, staying in tank stance more, and [over]use CDs.

Yes, a good STR tank, using tank stance and CDs properly, will be just as "tanky" as a VIT tank. I'm one of them. But when I heal in the DF, I see too many bad STR tanks to count.

Welp time to get some VIT rings and redo my bonus points.

I just realized WAR's damage output will be insane in defiance now.

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Originally Posted by HorseBoots

"We will be changing the method for calculating the potency of physical attacks for tank roles in Patch 3.2. We’ll be making it so vitality affects the potency of physical attacks, and as a result the effect of strength on physical attack potency will be reduced."

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Yea, my concern is...

Right now, let's say that STR is 1, and VIT is 0. VIT is 0 because VIT has 0 effect on your Damage. STR affects it by 1 Per 1 (arbitrary number for example alone.)

So, "The effect of Strength on physical attack ptoency will be reduced"

What this can mean is:

STr becomes .5, instead of 1.

"Making it so vitality affects the potency of physical attacks

VIT Becomes .5, instead of 0.

What I want to know is like, raw nubmers I guess. I doubt they'll make STR=0 in this scenario, because that'd make half the stats on our gear useless.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

I just realized WAR's damage output will be insane in defiance now.

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Why do people keep saying this? Defiance is a direct HP increase and doesn't affect VIT at all.

With tank damage scaling off VIT, there is no longer any excuse for a tank doing poor DPS. HP vs DPS is no longer an argument. You have both. Get to work.
With tanks having so much extra HP now, there is no longer any excuse for a healer not to contribute significant DPS. Tank has 30k HP. Don't just stand there. Get to work.

Pretty much strengthens the idea that we are all DPS, just tanks and healers have extra responsibilities.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

A lot of STR tanks stay out of tank stance more than VIT tanks, and often use less cool-downs (often either thinking they're godly for being STR tanks and too good for mitigation, or expecting their heals to carry them). Both of which will make them squishier.

Granted, a lot of VIT tanks are newer, so just aren't as geared or as good (which is where their squishiness comes from). But geared VIT tanks tend to be more conservative, staying in tank stance more, and [over]use CDs.

Yes, a good STR tank, using tank stance and CDs properly, will be just as "tanky" as a VIT tank. I'm one of them. But when I heal in the DF, I see too many bad STR tanks to count.

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This. It makes me feel warm inside when I run into a STR tank who knows how to play. Most just seem to be DPS who fate leveled and saw the big pulls people can do and copy that. A tank who who doesn't use CD isn't a tank, just a dps with some hp and a shorter queue time.

I've actually recieved hate for saying this exact phrase to some:
"I don't mind healing you in Deliverance, but please use defensive CD."

With that being the first thing said, so no other tone set.

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

With tank damage scaling off VIT, there is no longer any excuse for a tank doing poor DPS. HP vs DPS is no longer an argument. You have both. Get to work.
With tanks having so much extra HP now, there is no longer any excuse for a healer not to contribute significant DPS. Tank has 30k HP. Don't just stand there. Get to work.

Pretty much strengthens the idea that we are all DPS, just tanks and healers have extra responsibilities.

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I would probably wait to see just how the adjustments pan out before assuming tanks will be High hp dps gods now. Though unless they lower a lot of the current DPS checks, it should be on a similar scale to now. If it is a straight swap, a lot of content got that much easier due to the extra cushion, and I don't think they want that, unless they just write it off as old content and let it ride.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Why do people keep saying this? Defiance is a direct HP increase and doesn't affect VIT at all.

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It's sort of an understandable confusion, since VIT raises your HP and people usually naturally associate the two with eachother. But yeah, it doesn't work like Hawk's Eye (+DEX), it works like... Thrill I guess would be the best comparison? I dunno.

From a tank viewpoint: This is well. All the better if this makes securing enmity easier.

Paladin viewpoint: I wonder what SE is planning. Waiting and seeing.

Healer viewpoint: The less often HP drops like a stone, the better. I can't say that Leeroy Jenkins is dead, but he may be less active.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

IDK. With the DPS checks they had, I'm sure they were at least expecting melded accessories, or a mix of STR and VIT (rather than the 1 melded/4 STR or full STR we use now).

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The main reason I don't think this to be the case is that they didn't change anything about tank loot priority, though. They had a natural progression curve in mind and tanks were still unable to Need on Slaying gear, so I'd imagine they did their testing assuming that tanks would be taking the accessories that were what they had Need access to. If they had really intended for tanks to use Slaying accessories in any capacity, they probably would have also changed loot priorities in general. Given that they specifically mentioned not wanting pentamelds to feel like they were required back when they announced changes to tank damage were coming, I also rather doubt they balanced around them specifically, either.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Given that they specifically mentioned not wanting pentamelds to feel like they were required back when they announced changes to tank damage were coming, I also rather doubt they balanced around them specifically, either.

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I don't recall them saying that about the tank changes, but them saying it was unfair that tanks were basically *forced* to use pentas because of the dual stat nature of tanking. No other job needed to have two stats to be at top performance for progression, and they wanted to get rid of that.
Overmelding is actually being encouraged in 3.2 with all the new crafted gear and accessories coming out.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

The main reason I don't think this to be the case is that they didn't change anything about tank loot priority, though. They had a natural progression curve in mind and tanks were still unable to Need on Slaying gear, so I'd imagine they did their testing assuming that tanks would be taking the accessories that were what they had Need access to. If they had really intended for tanks to use Slaying accessories in any capacity, they probably would have also changed loot priorities in general.

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As for the drops, if you did BCoB progression, you'd remember there were *two* sets of slaying accessories; Maiming and Striking (same for Darklight gear actually. Oddly enough, Slaying accessories existed in 2.0, with the Myth gear; guess they felt that two sets would have been way too stressful on the 300/week tome cap). Yes, DRG could need on one, MNK on the other. And yes, DRG and MNK needed both Maiming and Striking accessories for BiS (and yes, there was a lot of crying when some random BRD won the Maiming accessory the MNK needed). They fixed that in 2.1, with Slaying accessories dropping from the EX Primals, and never using separate accessories again.

good grief dumb'n down the game again, Talos forbid that someone doesn't use the cookie cutouts. all the gear that has str is now trash, no variance allowed. hopefully they will do sweeping change to all gear and remove Str and add Vit, then i guess the gear names like Duelist,and Slaying are out the door.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

I don't recall them saying that about the tank changes, but them saying it was unfair that tanks were basically *forced* to use pentas because of the dual stat nature of tanking.

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Regardless of the exact wording, their general intent is the same, so why would they balance around something they didn't want to force people to do? If they didn't want to force people to use Pentamelds, why would they have assumed the usage of Pentamelds in testing?

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Originally Posted by PArcher

As for the drops, if you did BCoB progression, you'd remember there were *two* sets of slaying accessories; Maiming and Striking (same for Darklight gear actually. (...) They fixed that in 2.1, with Slaying accessories dropping from the EX Primals, and never using separate accessories again.

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I do remember, and their fixing of that is precisely why I don't think they would have assumed tanks were using Slaying accessories in Alexander. Fending accessories had never been so reviled as they have been post-3.0, though (as you mentioned earlier, Fending was much more useful throughout Coil—Slaying used to be something you did after you geared up, not something you did during progression), so they probably didn't see the necessity to fix the tank accessory conundrum until more recently.

It's also always been rather clear that the developers place far less emphasis on secondary stats than we do as a community, so they probably did their testing in BCOB assuming that DRGs and MNKs were using their respective Maiming and Striking sets for accessories. In their eyes, the secondaries are equal in value (and honestly back then, the difference between Maiming right side and Striking right side would have been small enough to have had no appreciable effect on encounter balance).

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Originally Posted by xLucia

Was kinda waiting for this. I'm a main healer and I sometimes hated having to heal str tanks cus they are so squishy! A the same time this feature provided a challenge, and I love healing challenges :3 So We'll see how this turns out :)

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Just a heads up, having more VIT didn't mean you'd take less damage. A VIT and a STR tank are the same levels of squishy, but a STR tank will actually kill the enemy faster, and take less damage accordingly. A VIT tank just means you need to cast more cures/benefics/physicks to top them off.

From my perspective, tanks were the only ones who got to actually choose more than one stat to use, and this added some variety and customization. Instead of adding this to other jobs, they've just removed it from the one role that did have it. I'd personally rather see all stats affect all jobs. Make STR increase CRIT chance, make DEX increase accuracy, make MND/INT affect SK/SPS etc.. Then maybe a SCH would throw on some STR accessories to get those adlo crits, or a WHM would use DEX to get accuracy capped etc.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I do remember, and their fixing of that is precisely why I don't think they would have assumed tanks were using Slaying accessories in Alexander. Fending accessories had never been so reviled as they have been post-3.0, though (as you mentioned earlier, Fending was much more useful throughout Coil—Slaying used to be something you did after you geared up, not something you did during progression), so they probably didn't see the necessity to fix the tank accessory conundrum until more recently.

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The problem was they tuned fights for DPS checks, not tank checks. Like I said earlier, its *easy* to mitigate most tank busters in full STR (or using STR and 1 penta) in DPS stance. That's with 200+, but during real progression (<i200) tanks used pentas because they were just too good.

Lack of good tank busters = no need for Fending accessories.

Simply put, they balanced Gordias wrong. And Fending accs were useless.

So... Food will directly affect our main stat now? Food gives direct vit but no other primary stat. Inb4 food to directly give HP instead of vit :<
Note: Maybe someone mentioned this? Not enough time to read the whole thread D:

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

As a healer I'm pretty meh about it. I liked the current tank meta with str tanks and vit tanks. It made healing more exciting for me. In dungeons I would push myself to see how much DPS I could churn out before needing to turn off cleric stance and heal. Now dungeons are going to be even more of a bore.

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I like this reply, and I mean A LOT! A bit challenge is always nice and like you said, not it wont be the same anymore. I actually loved using str on my tank too, needed to be aware of my cds more and needed to be better at handling things on big pulls, which alot of people who tried str setup failed at as well, not everyone could handle their cd's proppelly, now you barely need to focus on that, due to the high hp. Unless when you are in savage or other raid content that has big busters.

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

And nothing of value was lost. Thanks, dev team. Maybe I'll try tanking more with 3.2 making it actually *about tanking* a bit more.

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It won't be more about tanking, because you have higher hp. Tanking is when and how to use cd's, hell even faster fights makes less mechanics which will be easier on healer and rest of the team.
The problem when a lot of people using str, they weren't good on using their cd's or the healer wasn't good enough, ive been in parties where both were dpsing and tank was in str gear, so fast. My record was almost 9:30 min neverreap with drg and ninja and me as warrior in str build and healer was dpsing alot. Maybe people done it faster but, without that much aoe as blm and smn has, I was pretty impressed. Now you try this with full vit tank and a dps who wont dps as much. I'm not going to tell you to dps if you don't want to, nor do I expect a tank to do a alot, but if I can get players who can, then why not. But I agree, there was too much focusing on tanking doing dps too, but that was because of the a3 and a4.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Snip.

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Even if that was the case. You still get more VIT than STR on equal ilvl accessories. For example, Gordian accessories give 49 VIT vs 47 STR. So going off your example you would get 1 whole point extra from Fending vs Slaying, on top of the larger HP pool. Even going off the thought that you can still meld primary stats on raid gear when that also comes in 3.2 it would still be stronger to wear fending and meld your one STR materia than to wear Slaying and meld VIT.

The purpose of adding materia slots to blue gear is two-fold. For one it is being in place to make it so that raid gear will always be the defacto strongest gear, which soften the blow on easy to access Diadem gear, as it will not be meldable. The second is to make it so that tanks don't feel the need to buy crafted gear to be on the cutting edge. Now, Crafted gear is going to be treated as a faster alternative to hit those benchmarks in progression but the poor are still free to just do what they can with their tombstone and raid gear they get every week until they can cross the next stat hurdle.

Hope it brings tank dps down a ton. Warrior should be about half dps of the weakest dps which is bard or machinist.

Great, less choice for players. At least there was some customization on build/gear in that...

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Originally Posted by mb52139

Great, less choice for players. At least there was some customization on build/gear in that...

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There wasn't really. VIT gear as a whole didn't exist as VIT caps could be met with melded and you only replaced melded with STR when you had enough HP from left side pieces to not need the HP from the right side ones. So... no real choice there, this change just cuts out the middle man.

I would, however, prefer all accessories to have worthwhile choices so that gear progression wasn't so linear but the chances of that happening are very slim.

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Originally Posted by ReddAxel

Maybe. If not, healers will still have no reason not to throw out some dots and actively DPS to help a run go faster or to help burn down mobs or a boss quicker like they should be.

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calm down....healers can dps more IF tanks learn they still need to use cd even with high vit , no use of cd still = constant healing...many many don't use any so in that case too bad, heal onry!! You talk like all tanks are good LOL...they are not by anyyyyyyyyy means.

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Originally Posted by mb52139

Great, less choice for players. At least there was some customization on build/gear in that...

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Lots of choice if you were raiding; Gordian, Diadem or ESO STR accessories?

Yes, that's the reality; tanks used STR or you didn't get far.

Choice is but an illusion in an MMO; once the best builds are found you don't use anything but, or be excluded.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Lots of choice if you were raiding; Gordian, Diadem or ESO STR accessories?

Yes, that's the reality; tanks used STR or you didn't get far.

Choice is but an illusion in an MMO; once the best builds are found you don't use anything but, or be excluded.

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Except with STR and VIT there was choice. Tank would slot as much STR as they could, but would swap in VIT to survive tank busters etc while in progression. Main tank in my raid consistently was swapping str/vit accessories. He wouldn't do this if one was better 100% of the time.

You could say choice is an illusion in all aspects of life, but I doubt you would promote the idea of removing all choice in every day behaviour.

Anyway, Yoshi clearly is against choice, and that's too bad because it makes this game dreadfully stale.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Choice is but an illusion in an MMO; once the best builds are found you don't use anything but, or be excluded.

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Maybe thats true for raiding. But for solo play or teamplay for fun and goals, choice is very important if not crucial. And a game where the same character can be all classes all the time, a proper build system would be an incredible addition.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Simply put, they balanced Gordias wrong. And Fending accs were useless.

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I never said they balanced it correctly, but rather only that their testing most likely assumed the use of Fending accessories since that was the gear available to tanks at Need priority level.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I never said they balanced it correctly, but rather only that their testing most likely assumed the use of Fending accessories since that was the gear available to tanks at Need priority level.

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Yoshi said in a recent Interview, that when they balance fights, they count healer dps as 0, and tank dps as only what is required to keep enmity. Of course this is also at appropriate ilvl that fight is balanced for.

I hope people don't look at this as an excuse to not maximize your DPS potential as a tank in parties.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

Yoshi said in a recent Interview, that when they balance fights, they count healer dps as 0, and tank dps as only what is required to keep enmity. Of course this is also at appropriate ilvl that fight is balanced for.

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Yes, I read the interview.

Since I only use 3 STR right side on my PLD cause of emmity problems against some same geared & Over geared DD's the fact that I can return to full VIT right & still keep emnity doesn't affect me at all since I carry Vit parts to replace the STR when needed... thou now I just gota make sure I have better VIT on standby for when the patch hits so I can test the diff. my only problem will probably be my AoE Arrgo control on PLD will still suck

The only way this will work really, is by having VIT completely replacing STR-crit and determination. If its only like STR or a bit better, tanks will still roll slaying gear.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

The only way this will work really, is by having VIT completely replacing STR-crit and determination. If its only like STR or a bit better, tanks will still roll slaying gear.

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if the put vit have the same scale on damage like str, fending still win because fending give more vit compared to slaysing with str.

example now:
vit = 0 damage
str = 1 damage

3.2
vit =0.5 damage
str =0.5 damage

fending win have more vit stats, after all in 3.0 main stats are far superior.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

I just realized WAR's damage output will be insane in defiance now.

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The innate -25% damage dealt reduction says hi, still. I mean if you're saying this means no need to go into Deliverance, no, that's not the way to play WAR.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Hope it brings tank dps down a ton. Warrior should be about half dps of the weakest dps which is bard or machinist.

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"help, I am salt"

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Originally Posted by shao32

if the put vit have the same scale on damage like str, fending still win because fending give more vit compared to slaysing with str.

example now:
vit = 0 damage
str = 1 damage

3.2
vit =0.5 damage
str =0.5 damage

fending win have more vit stats, after all in 3.0 main stats are far superior.

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Fending won`t win in that situtation. Because slaying gear also grants skill speed, determination and critical, where Fending gives much lower skill speed and near no determination which is usually the stat replaced by parry. So if STR and VIT will both weight the same, at best, you will find tanks running a mix of slaying/fending accesories to max damage stats, like using just the fending acc without parry + slaying.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

Fending won`t win in that situtation. Because slaying gear also grants skill speed, determination and critical, where Fending gives much lower skill speed and near no determination which is usually the stat replaced by parry. So if STR and VIT will both weight the same, at best, you will find tanks running a mix of slaying/fending accesories to max damage stats, like using just the fending acc without parry + slaying.

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Um...what

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/e4ff8bcd94f/

Oh look, a Fending accessory with Accuracy and Skill Speed.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/9eadbf2fa22/
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/31220e14e12/

Wait, now Acc and Crit!

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...m/184f6f5ea73/
And finally, Acc/det


And that's just the i210. There were Crit/Det VIT accessories in previous tiers

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Originally Posted by ReddAxel

This means healers have no excuse to not dps now that tanks will have all this extra HP to spare. No excuses whatsoever.

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more HP = more to heal
With more max. HP a Cure heal less HP%

You can test it out how many Cure you need to heal up a Warrior at 50% HP and a Paladin at 50% HP.

I don't mind the change but at the same time its pretty much narrowed down to "Those extra points you get every few levels, you only have ONE option" Which just makes me wonder, why have us bother at all?