Astrologian impossible to balance as it is

Well, this topic sure went astray. If you guys want to continue making suggestions and whatnot, please do that in a different topic

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Then remove the AS+ for Diurnal and make it -MP% to make spells cheaper

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All of AST's healing spells cost less MP than the other two healers by default even though they have the same base potency as WHM's versions.

You're basically asking for WHM with infinite MP like SCH with this suggestion. It would render WHM obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, this topic sure went astray. If you guys want to continue making suggestions and whatnot, please do that in a different topic

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We're talking about Sects and you pose that they are not able to be balanced, we are suggesting ideas that may not make them balanced but will at least give a reason and situation for each sect. Therefore it is consistent with the topic. Unless we're all just supposed to read that novel you posted, nod our heads and state "Yes, this job is screwed." In which case I recommend you state in your post that this isn't a discussion topic as much as it's an affirm/deny my point.

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Originally Posted by Velox

All of AST's healing spells cost less MP than the other two healers by default even though they have the same base potency as WHM's versions.

You're basically asking for WHM with infinite MP like SCH with this suggestion. It would render WHM obsolete.

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A tad dramatic don't you think? Yes our heals are "SLIGHTLY" cheaper in MP (unless it's Helios which is equal) but also SE and it's infinite wisdom thinks that if we heal like a WHM or a SCH then we're stealing their job, which is why we heal for less and at times faster but with less punch. Cool less mp, less cure, MAYBE faster cast times! I have no problem with that, but what I'm stating is making it so that you can heal cheap in AoE (less cure potency then WHM AoE) for cheaper when under the specific stance for AoE healing.

WHM gets free cures with its traits and SCH has great MP regeneration and essentially a 2nd unmanned hand for healing that dons't cost anything. I hardly see why knocking off more MP% for AoE (again something we have equal cost in with WHM/SCH) making it punishing to heal AoE in Nocturnal but beneficial in Diurnal. This would hardly make a class as beastly as WHM "obsolete" and if anything is making a trash fire into a Forest Fire.

@lilith

Not sure why you think diurnal AST has weaker cures.

Benefic = cure w/ 20% less cost
Benefic II = cure II w/ 10% less cost
Helios = medica w/ 10% less cost
ED = Tetra
Aspect Helios has about same pot/MP as Medica II
Aspected Benefic generates more potency in less time than Regen

So, please elaborate because I don't see AST having weaker heals than WHM. Different, yes, but not weaker.

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

We're talking about Sects and you pose that they are not able to be balanced, we are suggesting ideas that may not make them balanced but will at least give a reason and situation for each sect. Therefore it is consistent with the topic. Unless we're all just supposed to read that novel you posted, nod our heads and state "Yes, this job is screwed." In which case I recommend you state in your post that this isn't a discussion topic as much as it's an affirm/deny my point.

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Astrologian is impossible to balance as it is. As for why, you'll just have to read the initial post as I will not repeat it here. I never intended this to be any form of "suggest this to fix Astrologian" topic. It was intended to prevent more nonsensical topics related to that. Or rather; What 95% of all Astrologian topics in the past 2 months are about. For example, your particular "contribution" in this topic:

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

Frankly I think they just need to bump up the shield strength or make it so it gives resistanc/armor + for as long as its in effect like how our bubble does that and regen. Then remove the AS+ for Diurnal and make it -MP% to make spells cheaper. Then make it so you can stance dance em, heck even give it a fairly long CD if you want, don't care, but making it so Diurnal is for AoE an Nocturnal is for maximum healing on a tank would make the class leaps and bounds better then what it is now.

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I've pointed it out what the issues are and why Nocturnal sect can never fulfill it's intended, role. So explain to me how this "suggestion" can solve all the issues I've pointed out that prevents Nocturnal Sect be as good as Diurnal Sect for it's intended role.
Bump up the shield strength or increased resistance/armor? MP sustainability as well as sustain healing is still an issue.
Cost reduction in diurnal? Nocturnal Sect is the one with self sustain problems
Stance dance? Frankly, this is not even the answer. Ghishlain mentioned something about healing paradigm and this would simply destroy it. This is the sort of "fix" that would cause the least amount of collateral damage, however. But whether it's definitely not the kind of "fix" Astrologian would need. If stance dancing was a thing, might as well integrate the entire Diurnal Kit into the aspected abilities and make Nocturnal Sect similar to Grit; switch on/switch off.

Astrologian, or more specifically Nocturnal Sect, cannot be tooled to be good for it's intended role as Diurnal Sect is right now. Frankly, I don't even see why this would be such an issue. The fact aside that the Astrologian kit prevents itself to have balanced kits, the player base bias will always lean towards one or the other. There are plenty of "oh please fix Nocturnal sect" topics out there. If you feel the urge to make more suggestions, please go to those posts. Unless you can think of a "solution" to make Nocturnal Sect as good as Diurnal Sect for it's intended role without:
More homogenization
More flat potency increases
More identity ironing
Additions to the stratagem simply for the sake of it without solving any of the mentioned problems
Without the requirement of reworking the job. After all, the topic is about Astrologian being unable to balance both sects as it is

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

@lilith

Not sure why you think diurnal AST has weaker cures.

Benefic = cure w/ 20% less cost
Benefic II = cure II w/ 10% less cost
Helios = medica w/ 10% less cost
ED = Tetra
Aspect Helios has about same pot/MP as Medica II
Aspected Benefic generates more potency in less time than Regen

So, please elaborate because I don't see AST having weaker heals than WHM. Different, yes, but not weaker.

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No problem, so with Medica you also have to consider proc'n "Enhanced Medica" which is a 50% cost for the next Medica, and Aspected Helios the cure potency from the regen granted is less then the Medica II which is why it weaker for it's cost. Also I stated A.B > Regen in another thread thinking that Aspected benefic was better then Regen, but was corrected. While the Initial burst of Healing is stronger for AST, the regen is weaker and lasts less which makes up and surpasses the HP gained from the initial burst.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Aspected Benefic: 190 potency + 140 X 6 ticks = 1030 potency
Regen = 150 X 7 ticks = 1050 potency

Regen wins, hands down. Especially because Synastry only affects the initial hit with its extra 40% bonus, 840 potency is only buffed by 20% while Regen's entire duration is buffed (more constantly, too, 60s CD vs 90s CD) by Divine Seal's 30%.

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Also being that I think the sect should focus more on AoE healing while Noct should be more Heavy Individual healing the individual heals are not what I'm calling into question (Benefic / E.D.).

@Lyrica_Ashtine, I get what you're stating, that basically SCH can DPS and heal in Clerics due to an additional helper, where as AST can mitigate but will have to keep pumping out the shield which will mean much more flip flopping in stance then the SCH would have to. That's true, that's again why I feel an increased shield really wouldn't change much and while it is a simple answer to say "At least we did something" more of what I'm leaning towards is keeping the shield as is now, and augmenting the ability to simply apply a (level/mind) scaling Def and M.Def or even resistance up that is noticeable.

This way sure, you won't keep people topped, but if you can make a 150 Potency AoE hit more like a 50 potency ability for as long as the shield is up (would go away when the shield HP is gone) then it can be more viable for AST to use stance dance as a "Cure Bomb Stance" while still having the ability to DPS and not flip out of it as soon as recast is up. This isn't asking for an overhaul of the kit and is operating in it's current form, just simply giving the shield additional purpose while still leaving SCH it's uniqueness (not adding a floating moon to cure players).

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Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise

No problem, so with Medica you also have to consider proc'n "Enhanced Medica" which is a 50% cost for the next Medica, and Aspected Helios the cure potency from the regen granted is less then the Medica II which is why it weaker for it's cost. Also I stated A.B > Regen in another thread thinking that Aspected benefic was better then Regen, but was corrected. While the Initial burst of Healing is stronger for AST, the regen is weaker and lasts less which makes up and surpasses the HP gained from the initial burst.

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Mmm, well, allow me to respond piece by piece.

Medica

Even with Enhanced Medica, Medica still averages approximately 1,115 MP per cast versus Helios 1,061 MP per cast

Mathy bits spoiled

20% chance for half MP cost Medica = 619 MP Medica every five casts.

( 619MP * 0.2 + 1,238MP * 0.8 ) = 124MP + 991MP = 1,115MP

So, Helios is still better and it doesn't change the fact that Helios isn't weaker in potency/cast than Medica is.

Medica II

Agreed that Aspected Helios is weaker than Medica II but that is one aspect of AST that is weaker than WHM, and not the entire kit.

Regen vs Aspected Benefic

The assessment isn't technically wrong but I don't feel it does Aspected Benefic justice and here's why:

If you consider per GCD

Regen = 1,050 Potency
Aspected Benefic = 1,030 Potency

Regen is therefore better on a per GCD basis

If you consider over a period of time

Aspected Benefic = 1,030 potency over 18 seconds
Regen = 900 potency over 18 seconds

Aspected Benefic provides more output sooner than Regen, therefore Aspected Benefic is more potent over the same period of time when you consider 100% up time on HoTs.

They both are HoTs but are a bit different.

Regen = more MP efficient
Aspected Benefic = more potent

Take from that what you will. Each player should play to the strengths of each kit as best as they can.

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Overall though, it doesn't change the fact that the WHM kit isn't that much more powerful than the Diurnal AST kit and in my opinion they now share an eerily similar power level.

Direct comparisons to white mage have been done to death. Both healers are close enough in relative healing strength it is a waste of time when doesn't answer what se wants from the job. Fill the role for pure healing along side of white mage til 4.0 or do they intend to tweak nocturnal.

If AST were to act as a Main Healer even in Noct, I don't think there would me that much of a problem.
I never took WHM nor AST in savage yet, so I don't pretend to be 100& right, but as I see it the fairy can constantly heal for an average of 1700 HP (2400 if roused), ignoring the crits, no MND party buff, i209.
A similar effect can be obtained with WHM and D.AST HoT, but not by N. AST.

I may be pretty simple-minded about this, and plain wrong, but wouldn't N.AST not act as SCH, but actually main heal, solve the problem?

Mind you: I do think Noct Sect is not as good as its counter-part, and I'm only talking about "superficially" solving the issue, as far as solving without reworking the job/buffing Noct would go.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Well, this topic sure went astray. If you guys want to continue making suggestions and whatnot, please do that in a different topic

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If you are also referring to my post, I'm not making any suggestions in regards to what AST should be, but merely to emphasize where they are lacking in the current meta. Which is kind of on topic as to why AST can't be balanced in it's current form as it just doesn't have the level of synergy that a WHM/SCH composition has.

The Card Mechanic of AST is in itself impossible to balance due to being RNG of nature and relying so heavily on Party performance. Sure the buffs are nice, but only when "needed" and it's not like there is 60s between phases where AST has enough time to draw the exact card they need.

AST will never be a good class if it's stances do not mesh well with AST/SCH, AST/WHM and while it is completely under-tuned in Party DPS utility due to being balanced around perfect RNG for it's Cards.

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Since it is true that AST is the weakest healer in any situation other than solo healing (where co-healer synergy and DPS are not as much of a concern), there shouldn't be an issue in tossing around ideas of whether any small changes could significantly improve AST as the pretense of the thread kind of points to disproving whether it "can" be balanced.

I don't play Astrologian but after reading this, I'd have to agree the best thing S.E can do is add new skills for the class. Perhaps a system where they receive certain buffs or effects if such and such class is in the party. That would make Ast unique in its own and hopefully not overwhelming.


IE: Oh in a 4 man dg I'd like to be with a Paladin because when I get hit by something, I have a 5% proc chance to parry one move. Or with a warrior whenever I get hit by something, I have a 5% proc chance to recover 15% of the attacks damage as hp.

Or in a 8 man raid, such and such spell allows me to increase my healing potency slightly by 4% when partied with a whm but with a sch my mana regen is slightly up by xyz%.



(It doesn't have to be like that. ^) Nothing too special but atleast gives something to the class on rare occasions. Not something to rely on but something that band-aids the class.

Giving astrologians a unique ability based on which tank we are healing is not a good idea. The astrologian is in a very strong situation and is on par with the 3 other jobs. Anything more then just tweaks at this moment could undermine the other jobs. If they buff the astrologian or give them any strong unique abilities then they should be scaled back in healing since they are on par with the white mage. The only thing the white mage has is it is suppose to be the king of pure healing and the astro can surpass it now on single target healing and burst healing with synastry.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

If you are also referring to my post, I'm not making any suggestions in regards to what AST should be, but merely to emphasize where they are lacking in the current meta. Which is kind of on topic as to why AST can't be balanced in it's current form as it just doesn't have the level of synergy that a WHM/SCH composition has.

The Card Mechanic of AST is in itself impossible to balance due to being RNG of nature and relying so heavily on Party performance. Sure the buffs are nice, but only when "needed" and it's not like there is 60s between phases where AST has enough time to draw the exact card they need.

AST will never be a good class if it's stances do not mesh well with AST/SCH, AST/WHM and while it is completely under-tuned in Party DPS utility due to being balanced around perfect RNG for it's Cards.

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Since it is true that AST is the weakest healer in any situation other than solo healing (where co-healer synergy and DPS are not as much of a concern), there shouldn't be an issue in tossing around ideas of whether any small changes could significantly improve AST as the pretense of the thread kind of points to disproving whether it "can" be balanced.

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The astro meshes well with white mage/astro and scholar/astro. It is not a perfect situation but its not because astro/white mage is undertuned for certain raids. It is raids were not designed around having that level of pure healing output. Hopefully Midas changes that making them a more viable pairing.

I'm speaking in general, rather the mechanic is based on what classes you are partied with or what single class in the party you will target for whatever the benefit is. Something like this would indeed give a chance to make your point on AST/WHM being "tuned" for the raid. Most likely we will receive new skills on the next level cap, I would prefer AST receives a new mechanic rather than just raw healing or dps.

I agree with that. I still hope that astro gets nocturnal turned into a new cleric stance with damage dealt healing like disc priest in wow. Just don't let it stack with normal cleric stance.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

I wasn't going to post but as a iLv 200 Astro I do feel like I have a voice on this. I read the OP and I don't really see the issue. I use nocturnal 99% of the time. The 1% being 8man content with a Scholar. Nocturnal gives me so much more freedom to DPS.

I think people need to be more specific in their issues with the class.

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Im an i203 Ast and I find Nocturnal 99% useless vs Diurnal. The shields just cannot compete with the regens in terms of overall potency and the regens will stack with whm ones while Ast shields do not with Sch.

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Originally Posted by Starbirth

Im an i203 Ast and I find Nocturnal 99% useless vs Diurnal. The shields just cannot compete with the regens in terms of overall potency and the regens will stack with whm ones while Ast shields do not with Sch.

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"We" don't care about your Ilvl. It's not always useless vs Diurnal cause it will depend if you are with whm/Ast/Sch.
And you don't get how powerful getting shield is. It's not about the overall potency, it's about the "increase" HP you give to someone that let him survive. So yes, the shield can compete against regens.

To be clear: A3s, while Living Liquid is casting his Cascade, you are happy to get one shield. Same thing against high tankbuster.

Don't be so extrem with your opinion.

I've always wondered why people try to cram AST into SCH's slot when going WHM/AST. AST and WHM have comparable main healing, and WHM's DPS is objectively better than AST. Although I haven't put it in practice, why is it very seldom raised the proposition that AST be the primary healer in BOTH compositions, and have WHM fill the "support healer" role?

Accuracy is an issue, and will need to be addressed by SE, but WHM's DPS rotation is better in all ways than AST. AST can use Ewers to supplement WHM's mp, (though not as well as SCH does, which is itself an issue that needs be addressed) and WHM can use Regens as their version of fairy heals to keep up sustain while in Cleric Stance. Meanwhile Nocturnal AST can use shields more liberally than SCH does (both are inefficient, but Aspected Benefic I *think* is more efficient than Adloquium) and cards to support the raid. This I've always thought would be superior to Noct AST trying to copy SCH and falling short on all three of DPS/mana/healing, but I don't have enough experience to see where having Noct AST primary heal in an AST/WHM combo could be worse.

Is it just that WHMs are so accustomed to being the main healer they find it unthinkable to play the DPS-healer role?

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

In a progression raid you need shields, especially in A3 and A4 where those shields are often the deciding line on whether Cascade or Mortal Revolution starts killing people. That, and the WHM/SCH dynamic just works so WELL. They pair so well together, so it's easy to expect an AST to flop into the missing role's shoes.

On a fight with heavy bleed effects and constant dot damage then WHM/AST might actually be preferrable by leaps and bounds, but we haven't seen that in a raid yet--the closest would probably be Odin or the 3rd boss in Void Ark. However so long as tank busters BUST and raid-wide booms BOOM then you are going to want to those shields.

Shields are also great because they give a purpose to overhealing, which mitigates healer redundancy. Can't ignore that.

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In the scenario to which I am referring, you would still have shields. You would bring Noct AST as the primary healer and WHM as the DPS-healer.
I wasn't comparing WHM/SCH to WHM/AST; SCH is too perfectly tuned for the DPS-healer role: better MP management, fewer accuracy issues, higher DPS, better offhealing while in Cleric Stance. The other two healers can't compete with it in the slightest, which is on SE to do something about.
I was comparing WHM/AST to AST/WHM. Nocturnal AST is required because shields are necessary as you said. My assertion was that I think WHM is a better DPS-healer than AST is, and therefore in a WHM/AST comp Noct AST should be the main healer, but in most discussions I see, it is always assumed that in a WHM/AST comp AST is the backup healer.

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Originally Posted by Triston

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Well, there are some issues and here are some of them:
Who will be doing the AoE healing for hits big enough that it will take 2 helios or 1 medica II?
Nocturnal sect as a main healer is practically a white mage without HoTs. Thus no form of sustained healing as well as mp efficiency issues
Same accuracy "benefits" scholar had applies to Astrologian

Frankly, putting white mage in the supportive healer seat doesn't really solve anything. Neither have high or even decent affinity towards that role. It's a matter of picking your own poison as there's a lack of better.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Frankly, putting white mage in the supportive healer seat doesn't really solve anything. Neither have high or even decent affinity towards that role. It's a matter of picking your own poison as there's a lack of better.

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Very much this. While there are situations in which it makes more sense to have a WHM temporarily DPS instead of a SCH, a WHM cannot put out sustained DPS like a SCH does without severe outside help. A SCH has virtually infinite MP while DPSing in Cleric Stance, whereas a WHM will MP-floor after just a few minutes, and that's assuming you do not use even a single heal.

My biggest problem with whm main dpsing is the accuracy. THeir dots can miss. (I spoke about a3s)

If you are main healer/dps, you can always switch to help your partner. So the whm can Medica II or switch role if he lacks mana.

Honestly all three healers have roughly the same dps output so it's a moot point in regards to just straight damage. As _slowpoke_ said, the only reason SCH shines is because they have better mana resources which give them longevity over AST and WHM. If it's a fight that doesn't last longer than five minutes, all are equal.

I'm hoping Alex midas gives healers less time to dps.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I'm hoping Alex midas gives healers less time to dps.

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I'm not sure I follow you here. Have you healed A3S or A4S? Do you actually know what you're asking for?

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

I'm not sure I follow you here. Have you healed A3S or A4S? Do you actually know what you're asking for?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iALJrcwI58s

If the encounter can be solo healed then I believe that was the point being made. Feels like having two healers in the raid scenario is a waste of the healers strength if they are pushing the scholar to dps primarily.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iALJrcwI58s

If the encounter can be solo healed then I believe that was the point being made. Feels like having two healers in the raid scenario is a waste of the healers strength if they are pushing the scholar to dps primarily.

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Why do people still tout this bullshit argument? Just because some extremely highly skilled players are able to solo-heal a difficult fight doesn't mean that there's a fundamental problem with the fight or the meta. People have been doing this forever in MMORPGs, but only in this one have I ever seen people complain so much about it.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iALJrcwI58s

If the encounter can be solo healed then I believe that was the point being made. Feels like having two healers in the raid scenario is a waste of the healers strength if they are pushing the scholar to dps primarily.

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OK, please do not misunderstand. That is not a raid group working on progression, that is a geared group working on farm. That is not something you do for first, second, third, or even fourth clears unless you are jumping into the instance near the end of its life cycle with the benefit of things like Mhachi Farthings or a raid full of geared vets. If you are in A3S prior to November then this is a thought you only barely considered, as even Elysium's WHM solo heal didn't occur until the final week of October (Gordias arrived at the end of July). There is a very big difference in what a group can take with entry level gear versus one kitted out in mostly 210s, and this is what raids are tuned for. As time passes though, alternative methods for ilvl acquisition appear to aid people struggling in the raid tiers, and as players get stronger they are able to stretch the limits of the encounter (and raiders who are farming continually strengthen as well).

I also do not want to sell this next part short, but that AST you linked? He and his group are awesome. What they did is in no way easy, and not just from the ridiculous healer demand placed on the AST but the entire group effort. The only reason solo healing A3S works there is because the DPS are so on point that they can limit break the first liquid gaol (hand prison that grabs the healer) and then kill the boss completely before the 2nd liquid gaol spawns (it spawns literally at the very last second). Without the LB to free that solo healer the 2nd time the raid is likely a wipe if it doesn't die before then, and that is a VERY HIGH DPS requirement, to say nothing of making digititus swaps a little more confusing without a 2nd healer.

So if your argument is that you want raids to require more healing after everyone has accumulated a lot of gear and not when they are initially implemented, then please carry on. If that's not your point, then I suggest you reconsider, if not for your own sanity then for the rest of us, and I say this as a raider who cleared A4S the first time back in October. And also, if you happen to have any videos of a solo A4S, I'd like to see it so that I might worship the hallowed ground they walk on, but that's just a little side jest because obviously there aren't any.

I am not arguing for either. I was only giving my two bits to the topic at hand. And I have not done As3/4 because of my job and work schedule but when I did raid back in July and our group was on as1-as2 we was having the scholar dps about 80% of the time back then as well despite not being in pure farm mode or fully decked out in gear. *shrug* You spoke about healing for As3 and I found a video that showed it being 1 person healed. My apologies if you only want middle of the pack average raiders to be accepted examples and not proof it can be done despite it is still considered the high end raid of FF 14 at the moment.

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

Why do people still tout this bullshit argument? Just because some extremely highly skilled players are able to solo-heal a difficult fight doesn't mean that there's a fundamental problem with the fight or the meta. People have been doing this forever in MMORPGs, but only in this one have I ever seen people complain so much about it.

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Do not be upset because people tout the argument since it is valid.. Please use a bit of grace in your retort.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

I am not arguing for either. I was only giving my two bits to the topic at hand. And I have not done As3/4 because of my job and work schedule but when I did raid back in July and our group was on as1-as2 we was having the scholar dps about 80% of the time back then as well despite not being in pure farm mode or fully decked out in gear. *shrug* You spoke about healing for As3 and I found a video that showed it being 1 person healed. My apologies if you only want middle of the pack average raiders to be accepted examples and not proof it can be done despite it is still considered the high end raid of FF 14 at the moment.

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I think you're vastly underestimating what was going on in that video, but your point is pretty valid for A1S and A2S. SCH is pretty much playing an off-healer role there, only healing for intense moments (double prey, doll and big gobtank phases, etc), but then you're still there because you're needed for the heals in those moments, even if you aren't healing the entire time. You're the WAR of healing, so flex those book muscles.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

Do not be upset because people tout the argument since it is valid..

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Uh, it's not. That's my entire point. It's an invalid generalization from a niche group of extremely skilled players to the rest of the raiding population. Less than 1% of all raid groups will be able to do this in the foreseeable future. It's disingenuous and quite frankly complete and utter bullshit to assert that this has any impact on or tells us anything about the balance of the fight or the raiding meta in general.

I guess from the stats we saw only 6% of the entire population has made it to as3 and as4 so even bringing those raids up also disingenuous?

A solitary video of a highly skilled and geared group players completing a piece of content is not an entire reflection of the raid tier as a whole. It's that same foolish line of thinking that had people declaring how Final Coil was 'too easy', because of how fast Lucrezia cleared it. Not because of how long they themselves took to clear it, based on their own experiences. No, they saw the efforts of an extremely skilled group of players and came to an ignorant conclusion about the whole raid tier.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

A solitary video of a highly skilled and geared group players completing a piece of content is not an entire reflection of the raid tier as a whole. It's that same foolish line of thinking that had people declaring how Final Coil was 'too easy', because of how fast Lucrezia cleared it. Not because of how long they themselves took to clear it, based on their own experiences. No, they saw the efforts of an extremely skilled group of players and came to an ignorant conclusion about the whole raid tier.

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But yet the logistics are only secondary to the original reasoning of the counter argument. I believe I only mentioned that because someone stated the healing requirements of As3 and As4 are above what one healer could do. Even if the case of 1 coordinated group out of 100 is shown to be doing it itleast it shows it was accomplished. I do agree that such a small data sample in the entire community of raiders capable of clearing the stages is at most grasping at straws but that is not the reasoning I posted the link to that video. I did so with the inclusion of someone was asking what the point of the poster hoping that the next iteration of Alexander savage give less time for healers to dps.

General consensus is that healers have to help push dps when they are not having to heal so may hap the issue was a stipuation that well healing needs to be ramped up if 3 out of 4 of the hardest raid at of this moment can be solo healed. And as I said 80% of As1-As2 was solo healed by a white mage and astrologian with the scholar as a back up to prevent mishaps of not enough healing puts the scholar in a unique situation as a dps/healer hybrid. If the scholar had to constantly keep Galv bubbles on certain targets instead of letting the white mage handle 80% of the healing chores then perhaps we could conclude that the raid was balanced around 2 healers doing their job. But when one was able to dps for 80% of the time or in the case of that one group let the entire encounter be solo healed then it leaves one to wonder if there could not be other mechanics specific for healers to deal with over having to be half a dps and half a healer in raids.

SE gave healers gear that helped with accuracy so it felt they wanted to give healers stronger offensive abilities in the raid encounters which they took away when 3.0 came out. That leaves two camps of healers. Ones that think you should be dealing damage if healing is not required and those who want to only heal in raids. If SE makes moves to penalize healers for using mana to deal damage then that would appease the crowd from the second group. I believe that was the core of the statement made. But once more I say this if using such extreme examples of a few groups who could solo heal AS3 is not relevant then why should even bringing up as3-as4 be relevant when only half of the raid teams have even seen As3. That is possibly roughtly 1% of the entire gaming population so also bringing up your statement of As3-As4 seems irrelevant as well if we are going by the same rules of engagement.

I don't want to be combative, so I will just state my opinion and where I'm coming from. As someone who has been clearing A3S/A4S every week for months as a SCH I will tell you there is a lot of healing you must do in them, much more so than is required in A1S/A2S. I remember even on our first clears of A1S I was largely just spot heal until double prey mechanic with some AoE heal support, so criticism of the two earlier tiers has some weight, but I will still tell you that a raiding SCH that does not heal is a liability and dead weight to their party. They are given a lot of "flash heal" abilities, indomitibility and emergency tactics particularly, and it is very easy to pop in and out of cleric for these as needed. They can and will save raids.

In later tiers any DPS you can do is a benefit due to the tight DPS checks, but your focus is on healing and DPS is something you squeeze in as best you're able. If you notice a 10-second window then you can throw in your dots, but you are going to want to heal for that next Cascade. A3S and A4S are scripted so finding these windows is easier, but that also means you can fully take advantage of your entire healer toolkit as well. Pop Whispering Dawn before the liquid gaol, and Fey Illumination before the 6-hit Splash+Cascade. Whispering Dawn before the tank and DPS get sucked into Quarantine, and adloquium the MT liberally during 2nd phase carnage lasers so the tank buster doesn't flatten them. Little things like that go a very long way for both healer's time.

Alternatively you are also presented the opinion of someone who hasn't actually worked on A3S/A4S due to real life time issues, which I will certainly not criticize. An MMO is a leisure activity and should be the lowest priority in one's life, and I will never argue against that. However it also means they don't have any practical experience in what they're criticizing, so just keep that in mind when you address their opinion.

Edit: I will also restate that single healing A3S only works because of high VIT totals on gear, most likely 210 or maybe some crafter ACC, and because DPS was high enough to kill the boss before the 2nd liquid Gaol (and this is very important). Cascade hits very hard, and there is no room for error. Most groups working on a clear will not be able to take its damage without some form of shield or mitigation (Virus/Disable work). Higher life totals significantly aid in this.

Yes but I was presented with a video of 1 healer handling the entire fight. I actually agree with your sentiments considering almost every raid so far at one point has had a white mage or astrologian solo healing after it has achieved farm status. My point is people calling BS on me since it was a feat done by very few people but yet others can pull people who beat As3-As4 for examples when barely more then a few % of the player base has ever beaten those raids. It is a bit hypocritical to try to nullify my statement while also speaking of content only a few % of people have actually seen as well.

But my point does stand. As3 was done by one healer so I feel my original point still stands.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

But my point does stand. As3 was done by one healer so I feel my original point still stands.

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Only because people are starting to over-gear the floors. You cannot deny that the last two floors are much more healer intensive than AS1 and AS2, especially with specific mechanics healers have to deal with (Digititus, Liquid Gaol, Discoid, Wirbelwind, and the whole Sac strategy of A4S). The solo heal of AS3 is an anomaly. It should NOT be the standard, even in this current timeframe of the first raid. Almost all farming groups still take two healers into the last two floors because of those mechanics. Does it mean that the healers aren't DPSing their hearts out? No, but the DPS opportunities for AS3 and AS4 are far different than those in AS1 and AS2.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

But my point does stand. As3 was done by one healer so I feel my original point still stands.

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Exactly what point were you trying to make? Vlady mentioned something about less healer dps windows, which translates into pure and raw hps checks. Locking out even more groups from the harder content, is that your point?

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

Why do people still tout this bullshit argument? Just because some extremely highly skilled players are able to solo-heal a difficult fight doesn't mean that there's a fundamental problem with the fight or the meta. People have been doing this forever in MMORPGs, but only in this one have I ever seen people complain so much about it.

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because only in this one are healers expected (and being able) to push DPS all-the-time that much. there are many people who like this but also many people who want an old-school type healer with more HPS checks and mana-management.

oh, btw, there IS a fundamental problem with the meta.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iALJrcwI58s

If the encounter can be solo healed then I believe that was the point being made. Feels like having two healers in the raid scenario is a waste of the healers strength if they are pushing the scholar to dps primarily.

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Just as an FYI, your argument may have more merit if the group in question was doing it at the intended ilvl (whether that may be, we won't know until its put into the DF).

Until it is shown an encounter can be solo healed at ilvl, its difficult to argue that an encounter can be solo healed during progression.