3.2 Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

is it just me or does Sephirot look like Asura?

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I think he looks like Gilgamesh wearing Kimahri Ronso cosplay, personally.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I think he looks like Gilgamesh wearing Kimahri Ronso cosplay, personally.

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Wow. I can now totally not get that out of my head when I look at him.

I wonder how much character they'll give the Triad... Will they give us some details about the nature of Primals, or information about Allag/pre-Allag times, or will they just monologue like Odin and tell us next to nothing? Bad enough we've got a bunch of tight lipped dragons hanging around leaving us in the dark, would be nice to have some more "Primals ain't so bad" moments, like we had with Ramuh.

Besides totally not working for Elidibus, Unukalhai's purpose really seems to be to give them some background and character.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Besides totally not working for Elidibus, Unukalhai's purpose really seems to be to give them some background and character.

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It's a pity though that we can't discuss much.

Ravana has so much more depth than Bismarck for example. We actually know his motives and he challenges us just for the sake of having a challenge. Unlike Bismarck who is just *Deep Blue sound* then *graaaaah* then dead. K.

Bismarck I can perhaps understand, of all the Primals he seems the most... Primal... That was actually kind of refreshing. The rest though? OK, Garuda is insane. Titan and Ifrit weren't horrible, but there could definitely be more there. Leviathan was utterly horrible, literally summoned and swims off... Ramuh was much better, though suffers from the same "I clearly know more than I'm letting on, but I wont tell!" thing Middy has going... Shiva and Thordan I'd discredit due to their special nature, and Odin is as bad as Leviathan, although his combat dialog is far more interesting. Ravana really is probably the best we've gotten, better than Ramuh if only because I get no sense that Ravana is really aware of anything...

That said, all the Extreme versions are terrible... You'd think Titan would have something to say about Kobolds resorting to a sacrificial ritual to summon him, given how much he wants to protect them... Nope though, all the Extremes are essentially the same as Leviathan. Summoned, and we have to deal with them... How'd the tribes react to us defeating them the first time? How'd the Primals react to a rematch? There's nothing like that. Granted they basically just exist to give players an extra challenge, but it still strikes me as a huge missed opportunity...

Given the gravitas around the Warring Triad, I really hope they're not just another rehash of "Haha! I'm a Primal and must be stopped!". They've all got history, they've all got motivations, would be nice to see that touched upon more... With Sephirot we've got what? His tribe is seemingly long gone. He'd be waking up angry at an enemy that has been dead for Eras. There's a lot they can do with that, I hope they don't just go for the same "All humans are bad!" that most Primals have already done to death...

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"Humans are evil!"

"No we aren't!" /kill

/quest

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There are a lot of things still keeping me in this game, but the philosophical debates are not one of them.

I have a feeling Sephirot won't have much of a personality other than "kill kill kill!" especially since he's been locked up longer than Bahamut and a Warring triad member

Any characterization will probably be dialogue or obscure references about him and his "tribe" Remnants of Sephiroth will be discovered here or there

At the very least it would be nice to get more lore outside the game/encounter... Ifrit, Garuda, and Mog were all made far more interesting than they actually are by additional information provided. Ifrit less so, but the story with Garuda and the Lord of Snakes, coupled with Ixalis origin in Azys Lla, and the proximity of Vanu Vanu (who protected the Key to Azys Lla...) who ride snakes... That made the insane harpy more interesting to think about. Likewise, the Mog myth, discovery of Moghome and their relation to Thordan/Nidhogg, all make for a much more interesting story, even if their characterization is none existent/one note.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I have a feeling Sephirot won't have much of a personality other than "kill kill kill!" especially since he's been locked up longer than Bahamut and a Warring triad member

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See, that makes me think he should have more personality... He is one of the Warring Triad, a trio that has always just been a plot device, this would be the perfect chance to make them something more.

As for Bahamut, well... He was royally pissed off before the Allag played Space Pokemans with him... Not only was he killed by them, he was summoned back by his beloved who then viewed him as stain on his memory (even if he isn't Bahamut, like Ysayle/Shiva I'd imagine he'd have thought he was the real deal at first). Add to that him and his fighting a losing war, and Dalamud effectively being a torture chamber... Yeah... I don't want to meet the man... dragon... thoughtform... whatever, who is sane after that...

On the other hand, we don't really know what circumstance the Triad fell to Allag... Given their apparent power, one wonders how they were "captured" or why they were put to use on something so menial as creating synthetic crystals... I'd hope for something a bit more true to VI, where the Allag didn't contain the Triad, they found the Triad "sleeping" and set to work harnessing their power without waking them up. It would explain why something like Crystal Tower was required; The Triad might have limitless power, but only a fraction of it was tapped into... Tapping into more would risk waking them up (#ThanksThordan), and then who knows what happens... If they're as strong as they're hyped up to be, one would wonder how we even have a hope of besting them... I would like to think this will be similar to the Ramuh encounter...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If they're as strong as they're hyped up to be, one would wonder how we even have a hope of besting them... I would like to think this will be similar to the Ramuh encounter...

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They arent called Warring Triad for a reason. If we fight the 3 at the same time who knows what would they be capable off, but what if we fight them separately?

Maybe they must stay close each orther. Just saing.

It seems as if the Triad were subdued by the Allagans if Unukalhai's to be believed:

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Urianger
As the Warrior of Light's comrade, my participation is but to be expected. After all, the matter doth pertain to the very fate of this star. The eikons of eld... In the distant past, these mighty beings did offer fierce resistance to the Allagan Empire. However, they eventually fell to the men of Allag, who devised the means by which to capture them.
Unukalhai
And it did not end with capture, as you well know, for the Allagans also learned how to harness the eikons' power. They refined this knowledge at the Aetherochemical Research Facility on Azys Lla. And within the Centrifugal Crystal Engine, they sealed three of the beings─the Warring Triad.

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As for the fighting the Triad ... the WoL is approaching the power of a god + we've got Hydaelyn's Blessing back again. As as powerful as a singly Triad member is the WoL will defeat them due to plot. There's also a possibility that what we'll be fighting is merely a weakened version of Sephirot and defeating him will make him sealed back up again.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Unlike Bismarck who is just *Deep Blue sound* then *graaaaah* then dead. K.

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Forgive the belated reply, I actually had something longer typed up, but my computer froze and have been too annoyed to retype it completely.

This may just me reading too much into things, but I actually felt Bismarck was more about you. Consider what Lahabrea and Igeyorhm say - they state that you despise (those are Igeyorhm's exact words) the Primals, going out of your way to find and destroy them, which often leads to more chaos. Bismarck, a giant, white whale, and the WoL, who hunts them. Sound familiar? It should, because that's what Moby Dick is all about - a misguided man completely focused on destroying a whale, even if the whale is not entirely innocent, making his life revolve around that purpose of destruction (as Lahabrea claims you have) at the cost of all else. It is as Cid said, it might actually have been better to leave him alone for a time, since Thordan wouldn't have had access to the key in Azys Lla, either.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Moby Dick

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To add, I think one interpretation of the book in question was that the eponymous white whale might be seen as an allegory of pure evil (or at least Ahab sees the while as the embodiment of evil), which might add to Bismarck's role as its analogue as Hydaelyns' untempered inhabitants (Notably Garlemald) tend to see the Primals as pure evil.

Morningstar's right on this one. Melville's whale was definitely more than a whale.

Not gonna dig out any old college essays, but Moby Dick is, among many other things, a story about how one man's obsession with destroying "evil" (embodied as the eponymous white whale) ultimately only serves to get a bunch of good men and himself killed. There is actually a lot of buildup before the final confrontation establishing that the whale in question is genuinely bad news, but ultimately the cost payed to bring it down is ludicrously high (the whale dies, taking the ship and its crew with it, and only the narrator is spared).

If there's any novel out there that will forever ruin you for the oft-romanticized notions of "putting your life on the line," "victory at any cost" and "fighting on to the bitter end." Boy howdy. Ahab did kill his whale, and did pay the cost he was fully prepared to, but was it really a good idea?


This absolutely applies to the WoL as far as I'm concerned. The price we've payed for certain things has been stupidly, stupidly high and only the villains have the sense to call him/her on it. That's an issue. Not only because I want our allies to have more sense than they do, but also because having the villains point it out just makes everyone else less willing to admit that maybe the bad guys have a point.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

This absolutely applies to the WoL as far as I'm concerned. The price we've payed for certain things has been stupidly, stupidly high and only the villains have the sense to call him/her on it. That's an issue. Not only because I want our allies to have more sense than they do, but also because having the villains point it out just makes everyone else less willing to admit that maybe the bad guys have a point.

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Due to the fact the story of this game in on rails, it's hard to see much point in thinking too much on it in terms of personal responsibility. I mean, not once did I ever have any choice to tell Alphinaud the Crystal Braves was a terrible idea.

The Crystal Braves wasn't necessarily a bad idea. It's just that Eorzea is actually a pretty terrible place that doesn't learn from its own mistakes. Especially when it comes to Ul'dah. The Warrior of Light and Scions are keen to hit back at Garlemald yet they're not prepared to deal with the rot that exists within Eorzea itself. Not truly. This will be even more apparent if Ishgard and Ul'dah remain as they are now (which is likely) and there continues to be a divide between the wealthy/noble and the poor/downtrodden. I do, however, support that gap (because I'm shamelessly a fan of luxury and I'd hate to see that aspect of the game removed).

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Due to the fact the story of this game in on rails, it's hard to see much point in thinking too much on it in terms of personal responsibility. I mean, not once did I ever have any choice to tell Alphinaud the Crystal Braves was a terrible idea.

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It's not so much that we, the players, can't, but that nobody in our bottle of exposition fairies ever considers stuff like that. How many duplicitous Lalafellin businessmen do we need to get shafted by before we start questioning the honesty of people like Happy Genocide Priest, before they unmask?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It's not so much that we, the players, can't, but that nobody in our bottle of exposition fairies ever considers stuff like that. How many duplicitous Lalafellin businessmen do we need to get shafted by before we start questioning the honesty of people like Happy Genocide Priest, before they unmask?

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As a personal rule I'd stop accepting money from Ul'dah that wasn't handed to us directly by Raubahn or Nanamo them selves. And since we just met him I'd hold Pipin to that rule too. (Might allow Papashan though since he's basically Nanamo's substitute grandpa)

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Originally Posted by EvinnaReed

I know its Sephirot, but a small part of me still wants to beat up FFVII's Sephiroth again. As if I didn't beat him enough times on Proud and Critical modes in Kingdom Hearts.


Edit: Offtopic but you could basically steal the entire fight from Kingdom Hearts I or II and just rebalence it for eight players and magic users and boom! T'was an excellent fight. I can imagine the rage on the forums from all the people who keep wiping to Sin Heartless Angel already. Hell, it could make as much sense as his appearance in Kingdom Hearts I and I wouldn't care. Just drop him in Alex Savage for all I care with zero explanation and I would eat that shit up.

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shouldve played 1.0 then. Nael van Darnus was basically sephiroth

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

I like that they're separating the two. This way they dont have to worry about trying to weave it into the main narrative, where it'd seem out of place or tacked on, but instead give it its own self-contained plotline. If this Antitower thing turns out to be the MSQ trial equivalent, then cool as the basic quest structure won't change.

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They are simply doing what WoW does. You can pick up your next set of ms quests which reference you killing Xbaddie even tho you never fought the guy.

Example: You get to the point where you have to do sastasha, but instead of being stuck till you complete it you can skip it and continue the story as if you did do it.

Example 2: Instead of going through the msq to unlock ifrit nm you can unlock the ifrit trial before actually getting to that part, as long as you are level appropriate.

Hope this clears things up.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

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I don't think they're going to do that at all. WoW went the extremely lazy way with that. FFXI, which is actually older than that, changes cutscenes and the characters involved depending on the content cleared, which is actually really impressive since the events in question change the power structure of an entire city. XIV actually does this, too, to a certain extent, for example, you can guarantee Alisaie will have different dialogue when she appears if you've cleared Coil. The level 60 SMN quest dialogue changes based on if you've killed Lahabrea first or not. Estinien has different dialogue based on if you've done the DRG questline. So on.

FFXIV adores its continuity, as they should. They aren't going to toss it out of the window.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I don't think they're going to do that at all. WoW went the extremely lazy way with that. FFXI, which is actually older than that, changes cutscenes and the characters involved depending on the content cleared, which is actually really impressive since the events in question change the power structure of an entire city. XIV actually does this, too, to a certain extent, for example, you can guarantee Alisaie will have different dialogue when she appears if you've cleared Coil. The level 60 SMN quest dialogue changes based on if you've killed Lahabrea first or not. Estinien has different dialogue based on if you've done the DRG questline. So on.

FFXIV adores its continuity, as they should. They aren't going to toss it out of the window.

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Yoshi said that from 4.0 onwards, expansion msq and trials will no longer be gated behind previous expansions to help new players dive straight into new content if level appropriate, so they don't have to spend hours/days grinding msq and dungeons/trials that nobody q's for. Also allowing hardcore players to jump into ex trials without having to skip all the msq.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Yoshi said that from 4.0 onwards, expansion msq and trials will no longer be gated behind previous expansions to help new players dive straight into new content if level appropriate, so they don't have to spend hours/days grinding msq and dungeons/trials that nobody q's for. Also allowing hardcore players to jump into ex trials without having to skip all the msq.

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So they're going the FFXI route, as I said. FFXI didn't pretend you had already encountered something you hadn't and instead changed cutscenes to reflect it. I can't image XIV pretending you had already done it, either. That's just called lazy writing.

I actually read that statement as the dev team focusing more on the 3.1-styled battle duties rather than in-story trials like Nabriales, which would be a perfect balance, in my opinion.

The arena where we fight Sephirot looks similar to the Singularity Reactor?

I wonder if it'll be in the same place (just transformed due to his awakening) or will it be else where in Azys lla? The "roots" also remind me of Void Ark's Irminsul

This is in response to Cyril's comment about referncing past feats

• Level 60 SMN quest (Clear "Heavensward")
• Point where the group meets Y'mithra before retrieving Y'sholta form the lifestream (Get the SMN crystal)
• Tataru joining the ACN guild (join that same guild before her)
• Estinien's cameo in 2.4 and introduction 3.0 (Get the DRG crystal)
• Suito Carlito's cameo in Wanderer's Palace HM (Go as a SCH)
• Talking to Yayake in the Level 58 SCH quest (Get the BLM crystal)

These are mostly job based, but I can see them doing something similar for Trials and Raids. BTW was there any dialog changes in the BLM 50-60 quests if one had the WHM crystal or at least membership into the CNJ guild before hand?

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

Estinien has different dialogue based on if you've done the DRG questline. So on.

FFXIV adores its continuity, as they should. They aren't going to toss it out of the window.

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Estinien has different dialogue in 2.5. In 3.0 you're the second Azure Dragoon to him even as a level 0 Lancer.

Also, Ramnbroes says something different in the Heavensward level 50 SMN quest referencing that you've unlocked the Crystal Tower, but nothing different if you've cleared it. I guess they assumed new players could hit 50 as SMN and do that new quest before finishing World of Darkness, so it's just a casual mention.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

This is in response to Cyril's comment about referncing past feats

• Level 60 SMN quest (Clear "Heavensward")
• Point where the group meets Y'mithra before retrieving Y'sholta form the lifestream (Get the SMN crystal)
• Tataru joining the ACN guild (join that same guild before her)
• Estinien's cameo in 2.4 and introduction 3.0 (Get the DRG crystal)
• Suito Carlito's cameo in Wanderer's Palace HM (Go as a SCH)
• Talking to Yayake in the Level 58 SCH quest (Get the BLM crystal)

These are mostly job based, but I can see them doing something similar for Trials and Raids. BTW was there any dialog changes in the BLM 50-60 quests if one had the WHM crystal or at least membership into the CNJ guild before hand?

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Don't know about BLM, but...
I think Rhaya-O-Senna comments on being reliefed to 'have an accomplished WHM' (or something like that... been quite a while) handle it when you accept Lost City, but I don't know if it's different if you don't have WHM unlocked. Would make sense, though.

There isn't any changes to the BLM 50-60 quests if your already a WHM. Your WHM status isn't mentioned.

Ooh, are we putting together a list of all of the job continuity changes? Neat, I'm all for it.

The Odin quest has dialogue from E-Sumi-Yan about how Sylphie will "smile at your valor" or something similar. I don't think he'd have that dialogue otherwise, since you wouldn't know Sylphie without the CNJ quests.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Given the gravitas around the Warring Triad, I really hope they're not just another rehash of "Haha! I'm a Primal and must be stopped!". They've all got history, they've all got motivations, would be nice to see that touched upon more... With Sephirot we've got what? His tribe is seemingly long gone. He'd be waking up angry at an enemy that has been dead for Eras. There's a lot they can do with that, I hope they don't just go for the same "All humans are bad!" that most Primals have already done to death...

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There's no history or gravitas surrounding them in Eorzea (XIV). There is as VI's "contribution" to the story, and in their home game, but besides that the Warring Triad is just like Bahamut - primals from a bygone age who will probably go on a rampage and bring about a Calamity if left unchecked. In-universe, all we know is that they're called the Warring Triad. That's it. Out-of-universe we know the first of the three is named Sephirot, and from that we can infer the other two will be Zurvan and Sophia, but that tells us nothing of their character or motivations. Regardless, from what we understand sealing away primals just causes them to build up anger and hate they then take out on the world in its present state no matter who is to blame when they're let out of their can.

Granted, that's just running on Bahamut, and he was a kind of special case (kept conscious within Dalamud for five millennia while being forced to listen to his worshipers' pleas - understandably driven insane), but we don't yet know what the situation with the Triad is like yet. We see some foliage in Sephirot's arena, and there's organic gunk in the Triad Control chamber, but... nothin'. Now it would be really boring (or at least repetitive) to have them just replay Bahamut's wrath or just have them show up, fight us, and then disappear, but we don't know anything about the Triad in-universe yet, beyond that they were captured by the Allagans in 3AE and imprisoned on Azys Lla.

... we'll have to stop them anyway, because it's been drilled into our heads that "Primals are bad, mmkay?", but there is stuff they could do with them...

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

(snipped because character limit)

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Would also like to add that clearing the Lv. 50 SCH quest before unlocking Wanderer's Palace HM results in different dialogue from the two adventurers in that quest, from what I can tell. They make a remark about how you already know the story of the Tonberries there.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

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I know, I'm simply hoping that there is more to them, seeing as they're pretty much a direct reference along the lines of Crystal Tower. Crystal Tower wasn't just a tower that showed up for a cheap Final Fantasy III reference, there was some substantial lore behind it. I would hope the Warring Triad are handled in a similar fashion, not just because they're a massive reference to Final Fantasy VI, but because I'm honestly sick of how Primals are handled. I would hope our interactions with them boarder on something similar to our interactions with Ramuh, although even Ramuh left something to be desired.

That said, I expect nothing. We'll get the typical "Rawr, I'm a Primal!" and perhaps some exposition from Unukalhai amounting to "trees loved this guy". Alexander was honestly the last straw, perhaps they'll eventually redeem him, but at this point I'm just sick of what little character Primals have being wasted or nonexistent. Perhaps they've just become too standard, perhaps Shiva and Thordan created an unwelcome shift (though given I'm still very much anticipating FC Primal summoning, they were quite welcome), but it's been a long time since I've felt like I'm fighting "Gods". Ravana, for as much as I like him, might as well just be a Gnath on steroids at this point. We never see the damage these creatures cause, we only ever get a hint in the main scenario (Ravana verses Shiva, for example).

I know people are probably sick of me going on about Final Fantasy IX, but that is a game that got "Primals" right. Huge let down when you finally get to summon them, but when you see Odin or Atomos for the first time? F*cking hell XIV needs something like that. Bahamut certainly got that treatment with the End of an Era, I just want to see something like that in game. End of an Era was a very long time ago now... Remind me why these things are a threat, instead of just going "Alexander will drain all the aether! Lets leave him alone for months!". Alexander very much fails the rule of "show, don't tell". We're told he is a thread, while all we see is a pathetic giant that can't even crawl out of a river... If the Warring Triad are handled the same... Like I said, I hope there is more to them. Show me that they're ancient gods, don't just show me another angry Primal that does nothing and expect me to give a sh*t when I'm told they were a serious threat.

Tbh, I kinda hope Alexander will receive the same treatment in FFXIV than it did in Type-0.

Goes up, destroys everything, kills everyone who summoned it by consuming their life over time. Big ass ending fight with the core while Illuminati goblins are losing their lives and begging us to save them. Enrage timer is when the last goblin dies.

Now THAT would make it a bit more interesting (both in lore and raid mechanics) for me.

I think one of the issues with Primals on an End of an Era scale is simply put the WoL is kind of screwed against something of that scale. It requires something of a similar scale to take it down in that situation which pulls control out of our hands usually.

That said, it would have been cool if when Alex came out of the lake, where his foot landed all the plant life phased to be dead.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I think one of the issues with Primals on an End of an Era scale is simply put the WoL is kind of screwed against something of that scale. It requires something of a similar scale to take it down in that situation which pulls control out of our hands usually.

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They don't need to go causing a Calamity, but it would be nice if they did something... Heavensward actually did an OK job of that I guess, Ravana and Shiva had a nice little fight, and Bismarcks second introduction had him eating islands and fighting Garleans... One thing I'd love to see done, jumping off the back of IXs Atomos, is for SE to set up a two versions of a zone; One is an instance version of, lets say Ishgard (since it is actually fairly similar to Lindblum), that you first encounter. Then a Primal shows up, wreaks the place, and you gain access to the "real" version. Ishgard is actually a pretty good example for this, we can tell it was attacked by dragons, right? Sure, but we don't know what it looked like before, we don't know how the people of the Brume were doing, we're lacking context in that regard, and I think an "instanced" version of the city pre-destruction would be a nice way to give us context and highlight the threats we face...

Then there are places we don't visit... Remember how there is a Castrum off in the distance if you look out from Monument Tower? Slap something like that in the distance of the Hinterlands. Alexander pops up, have him destroy it instantly. Done, he is established as an actual threat; We don't want him doing that to Idyllshire. Bit harder to work something like that for the Warring Triad, I suppose, given their containment, but there is no reason we cannot have him display his strength in cutscene or combat. One reason I'm fairly fond of Regula is his boss fight in the Research Facility, we see him deal with a bunch of enemies alone. His actual fight leaves something to be desired, but the introduction was spot on. Meanwhile, most every Primal just pops up and goes (themselves or through exposition) "Haha! I'm going to do something bad!". It's just rubbed me the wrong way for too long now...

Just another reason I want FC Summoning/Roaming Primals, I suppose. That's an easy way to give them an actual presence, enemies in Diadem or the odd Hunt target honestly cause me more worry that Primals at this point. Diadem mobs are the bane of my Botanist/Miners existence, meanwhile Primals are a joke because I only ever encounter them with a group... The Odin FATE is perhaps my favorite iteration of a Primal because of this; He displays more character in that FATE than most of his peers, and he is (or was, I haven't had the fortune to encounter him post-Heavensward) actually a serious "challenge". The Odin FATE seemed like a real skirmish with a God, while most of the Trials are more like a dance, often with a toddler throwing a tantrum. Take that as a put down for the Primals personalities, or your average Duty Finder party, it works both ways...

This is why discarding the 3AE expo dump character(s) for cheep feelz was a stupid move. Two (plus one) people who may very well remember the threat the Triad posed and could have given us a chance to Echo into them for a firsthand look. I will never stop being disgusted at that waste of potential.

But no, Nalien, not sick of you going on about Final Fantasy IX, because that game did get summons right and it's 15 years old! Those FMVs could render in real-time on my old laptop, but that carnage was the real deal. Before anyone plays the MMO card, WildStar managed an Alexander-scale giant death robot, instanced in the field, that actually attacked you until you managed to blow it up via story progression. Leaving aside its million other flaws, the visual progression of areas as you cleared story quests was top shelf.

Well there could be engine restrictions at work there. There may be a limit to how effectively they can phase the game terrain. Likewise there is issues with having multiple instanced versions of the same area as it can split up the player base. Id say the only time it would work ok is in situations like dungeons where the dungeon is the first time you see the location and after the dungeon it opens up in its aftermath state.

Personally I did find Alexander somewhat underwhelming and frankly the fact that he is about at least 4 or 5 times smaller in the game world than he would have to be for us to have the space we have inside the raid also kind of throws me off.

As for Primals, while Alex feels a bit underwhelming, I think Bismarck was certainly handled well and Thordan's fight was incredibly epic.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Personally I did find Alexander somewhat underwhelming and frankly the fact that he is about at least 4 or 5 times smaller in the game world than he would have to be for us to have the space we have inside the raid also kind of throws me off.

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When you.. ahem, go under the map, you can see that he is actually pretty huge. We may enter by a tiny part, but I don't think we do the whole raid in it. We may acually go pretty far into the primal's shell.

Question for anyone with a good memory : Do anyone remember if Alexander's entry was there before we finish the MSQ of 3.0 ? He starts moving at that point so that would make sense if he isn't there before.
If he isn't, that could open a way for him to destroy a part of the Hinterlands, because it sets a precedent of different map displays for different players within the same instance.

Heck, even if he doesn't affect the land we can go on, I'd like him to destroy something in the background. Something visible.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Likewise there is issues with having multiple instanced versions of the same area as it can split up the player base.

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That's the thing, it potentially wouldn't.

The thing kicking around back when Mor Dhona started changing, and some people wanted that to be story based (heck, I'd like to go back and walk around the old one), was that Mor Dhona was a hub and splitting players across several hubs wasn't particularly good (though the Party Finder now perhaps renders that moot). What I'm suggesting would be more like the Vault in 3.1, except not quite a dungeon. You go in, see what the place is like, see how people are living there, then you leave. Story progresses, the place gets hit by whatever, you come back and can see what's changed. Now it's a persistent zone and potentially a hub.

The pre-disaster (be that Primal, Garlean, or whatever in design) version of the zone would not be something you persist in for an extended period of time. Perhaps Final Fantasy IX and Lindblum is a bad example there, since a fair portion of content occurs before Atomos noms the place. It would certainly be better to flesh out an area like that, before stripping it away, but yeah, not particularly practical in an MMO...

Alternatively, think along the lines of 2.55 and the Rising Stones, just bigger and with a more dramatic threat. We built up that place, it was essentially "home", then we lost access to it. Nothing really happened with it, since the Crystal Braves weren't the biggest threat in the world, but when we finally returned it was a mess, and now it's been cleaned up. I'd be incline to think A Realm Reborn did well there, when we return to the Waking Sands after Livia's assault, but I think my experience of that was ruined by the fact that it wasn't an instance at the time... Rather killed the mood when dozens of other players were standing around... Still, Livia got plenty of buildup, both there and scenes in Castrum Centri, if a Primal could get a fraction of that, I'd be happy. Sadly I doubt Sephirot will, since it's probably already too late... We've seen nothing of the Triad, we've just been told they're bad news...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

This is why discarding the 3AE expo dump character(s) for cheep feelz was a stupid move. Two (plus one) people who may very well remember the threat the Triad posed and could have given us a chance to Echo into them for a firsthand look. I will never stop being disgusted at that waste of potential.

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What little hope I have rests on the developers remembering that the Echo is a thing... It's still a fairly jarring way to show us a threat, but it works regardless. Imagine if Totally-Not-Elidibus triggered Echo cutscenes when he handed us the artifacts that helped us unlock Bismarck and Ravana Extreme? Would have added immensely to his character, and potentially given us some real insight into the Primals in question.

I almost want future Extremes to all be handled by the Wandering Minstrel... That at least adds a little flare to proceedings... Extremes have long just been generic quests given by a generic quest giver (no offense Urianger). They started out reasonably OK, with the whole sacrificial ritual coming up, but lord knows whatever happened to that plot point... They quickly just became "Oh, you're here for you loot? Lets get this over with...", when they could have given the Primals some much needed development. They could have fleshed out Leviathan, instead I just sit there going "Wait, after complaining at me for challenging you with trickery last time, you're falling for it again?", the Wandering Minstrel would fix that right up, and is a lovely excuse to give no extra lore. It's lazy writing, but Extremes seem to get that anyway, so I'd rather they at least just be honest about being lazy...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

But no, Nalien, not sick of you going on about Final Fantasy IX, because that game did get summons right and it's 15 years old!

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I think the only thing I can fault it on was giving us the summons. The Odin I watched in cutscenes was far superior to the Odin I got to use, partly why IX is definitely my favorite version of Alexander. Great buildup, amazing reveal, and then I don't get to disappoint myself by ever getting to summon it myself.

Granted, here I want to summon Primals, but that's mostly because the entire system sounds better than the Summoners of old, it's just stuck in development hell... All this game needs is Campaign and Free Company Summoning would be absolutely amazing. I can just imagine a server fighting a losing battle, about to lose a location to the Garleans (or whatever threat would warrant Campaign style content), only for a group to come in and throw Ifrit at them, completely turning the tide. It would have the same wow factor that Ramuh did in the XV demo, potentially more.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Question for anyone with a good memory : Do anyone remember if Alexander's entry was there before we finish the MSQ of 3.0 ? He starts moving at that point so that would make sense if he isn't there before.
If he isn't, that could open a way for him to destroy a part of the Hinterlands, because it sets a precedent of different map displays for different players within the same instance.

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No, he isn't there! Only the barrier is.