Why does Clemency get interrupted? And why does Sword/Shield Oath reset combo?

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I meant using HG in sword oath vs the sword knight.
Killing that knight before it swaps, and you won't need any more CDs

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That's exactly what I did with PLD there. Sword Oath vs Sword Oath knight, HG Holy Bladedance, go full DPS before it swaps back to shield and he dies. I do it with DRK too, no Grit, Living Dead. I only go tank stance if my knight is in Shield Oath because there is little to no point in doing more damage in that case. Honestly, if the Sword Oath knight doesn't die before swapping, your group's DPS is shit. After one knight dies, there is no Oath anymore, so the second knight hits like a wet noodle and you can eat Holy Bladedance totally naked without even your tanking stance.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I meant using HG in sword oath vs the sword knight.
Killing that knight before it swaps, and you won't need any more CDs

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I know what you meant. I'm not disagreeing with you outright. I just don't find it necessary in most cases, and there are a couple other alternatives that work just as well.

I've done Sword Oath or No Oath against Sword Oath Knight using Sentinel/Shelltron. If your healer is on the ball, it's no problem. If your Hp is a little uncertain you can pop Fracture on top of that, but it's kind of overkill if the healer is paying attention. Another method is to use Shield Oath like a CD instead of stance. Pop Sentinel, Shelltron and Shield Oath, to take the hit, then drop Oath without switching to avoid interrupting your combo and keeping full potency on GB or RA (whichever happens to be next in your rotation). This is fine as well, because the tiny boost in Dps from Sword Oath Auto Attacks is hardly noticeable, and your Dps team should not need it to meet the check (if they do, then you need to find new Dps).

HG definitely makes things easier (one and done buttons always do), but the only time I find HG to be flat out necessary, or even a better option, is if my heals aren't up to snuff or my Hp is not capped. Otherwise I find it's better to save it for a CD refresh on one of the Heavenly Heels in a later phase.

OK since we're talking about Thordan EX now... How is PLD supposed to survive the tank buster if they save Sentinel for the Knight's LB? Rampart + Shelltron?

Rampart+Sheltron is more than enough. Get your healers to Virus/Disable the Heels.

Thanks. Will give that a go with my static next time we attempt to down it.

I don't trust PUGs.

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Originally Posted by AI_wass

Rampart+Sheltron is more than enough. Get your healers to Virus/Disable the Heels.

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Exactly. Shelltron+Rampart = Dafaq is a Heavenly Heel? Hp might drop as low as around 50-60%, but that's nothing to worry about so long as your healers are on the ball. Dedicated healing during Heavenly Heel means not even worrying about it. If the healer casts Virus or throws up a buff like Stone Skin, HH is almost unnoticeable dmg.

It is a bit of a shame though. Back before the Tank meta changed to require Tanks to output maximum Dps, this would have been exactly the kind of fight in which moves like Clemency and Stoneskin would have been tremendous assets to a Pld (self-casting). You could free up your healers a little bit during each Heavenly Heel or Holy Blade Dance because you had the luxury of being able to self-buff. Now the onus is almost purely on the healers, because interrupting your Tank Dps for the sake of Tanking is against the meta, especially for Pld's who have the weakest Dps overall.

This doesn't apply just to paladin, but when I have to go to upgrade my esoteric gear from 200 to 210, I shouldn't have to click "monk" category for my accessories. Something is wrong there and they need to address tank damage.

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Incoming spike damage pld switches to shield oath, damage is mitigated immediate increase in effective health and effective healing.

Incoming spike damage war switches to defiance, dies as increase in effective health is not immediate.

pld uses a skill to activate his mitigation. Warrior needs to use a skill to benefit from his.

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The only person in here that gets it. If they make it that shield oath and sword oath does not break the combo pld will use it as a defensive cool down. Then they will need to make that defiance also heals the hp you gain when you switch from deliverance to defiance. So that's why

Regardless of Sword Oath and Shield Oath, clemency does need a change. Either faster cast time or a way to surecast it. Heck, pld just needs more chemistry with its oaths with specific traits unique to either stance Like in shield oath or something, all shield moves wouldn't suffer from the damage penalty or something like that.

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Originally Posted by KinSlayer009

Then they will need to make that defiance also heals the hp you gain when you switch from deliverance to defiance.

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why?

Why not just have something paladin can do but warrior can't?

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

why?

Why not just have something paladin can do but warrior can't?

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Because WAR has to be the same or better than PLD, obviously.

I love it when people compare stance dancing they always seems to forget that the effect is also completely different.
Using shield oath or grit gives you a self sustained 20%damage reduction directly. Using defiance gives you absolutely nothing on your own and that actually makes a huge difference also. You need to be baby sitted by a healer to make turning defiance worth

The CD is also way longer a full 10 secs for warrior.
Maybe stance dance looks more appealing but it also has some major downside as well

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Originally Posted by Sandamar

I love it when people compare stance dancing they always seems to forget that the effect is also completely different.
Using shield oath or grit gives you a self sustained 20%damage reduction directly. Using defiance gives you absolutely nothing on your own and that actually makes a huge difference also. You need to be baby sitted by a healer to make turning defiance worth

The CD is also way longer a full 10 secs for warrior.
Maybe stance dance looks more appealing but it also has some major downside as well

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Major downside? Like what? I've never experienced a "major downside" and, if you're going to switch to a stance, it makes sense to be in it for longer than 10 seconds. as far as I can tell, that's the only "major downside" you listed.

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Originally Posted by Sandamar

major downside

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When switching stances as a WAR :
+ You convert your stacks
+ You don't lose a GCD
+ You don't spend MP/TP
+ You don't break your current combo
- You don't instantly get Defiance's HP when switching from DPS to tanking stance

When switching stances as a PLD :
- You spend a GCD for each stance
- You spend MP
- You break your combo, making it so that you can't switch stance at any time, you virtually only have 2.5 sec CD on your stances, but because of that, it's just like you had 7.5 sec CD WHILE being on the GCD
+ You instantly benefit from your tanking stance

When switching stances as a DRK :
- You spend a GCD for switching from DPS to tank
- You spend a shitton of MP for switching from DPS to tank
- You break your combos for switching from DPS to tank
+ You instantly benefit from your tanking stance
+ When switching from Grit to no Grit, you don't spend GCD, MP or break your combo

Suddenly, what seems to be the only "balanced" stance-dancing is DRK's stance-dancing. Also, for the only "con" of Defiance/Deliverance, about the HP which are not instantly granted, you either get the ability to instantly Equilibrium, or Inner Beast if you had 5 stacks when switching. Inner Beast will heal 50% to 80% of the missing HP from Defiance while granting you 20% damage reduction which equals Grit and Shield Oath for the next 6 seconds on top of the bonus in healing received from Defiance. All of that, while dealing a 300 potency attack ignoring Defiance's damage penalty. Shield Oath/Grit both spend a GCD without dealing any damage, on top of all the other cons they have. So yeah. Even if it works completely differently for WAR, his only "con" is very far from equaling the multiple "cons" of the other tank stances.

I think that DRK is completely fine as it is tho and it may be the best solution to go with for PLD, make Sword Oath oGCD, but keep Shield Oath as it is. Just my opinion tho.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

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You forgot the part where, since heals and shields snapshot, you retain the benefit of buffed HoTs and shields when switching back to Deliverance compared to Grit/Sh.Oath. Very nitpicky I know, but it adds up pretty nicely over time, especially with Conval.
Completely agree with your post regardless.

I like your + - list Freyy it's actually pretty accurate. In my opinion having the benefit from your tanking stance instantly is actually one of the most important one because what's the point in using tanking stance if you don't get any defense out of it? That's the main utility of tank stance tbh.

Inner Beast use one gcd so, ok tank swaping use 0 GCD but you'll use 1 afterward to use the most common tank buster defensive CD. While PLD and DRK will use 1 gcd to turn on a 20% damage reduction and their following CD will be off gcd. There's a slight balance if you take everything into consideration.

For your information the damage penalty for war in defiance is 25% not 20% like shield oath and grit, so there goes another difference :)

If you swap too late in defiance you're screwed, you miss a buffed stoneskin, a buffed adlo. So yeah it's actually a major downside, i don't see why it isn't. Pld and Drk can just turn on Shield Oath or grit during a tank buster cast bar and be perfectly fine, doing that as a war is actually a failure. And ofc war can slightly compensate with Inner Beast and Equilibrium but it's still a downside.
Using Equilbrium to top yourself up before a tank buster is quite a failure and usually a huge overheal wasted,you'd be better off saving it for oh shit button once the buster hits.


And Raxiaz i' m not only listing the 10 seconds CD, the major downside is that you dont' benefit instantly from your tanking stance. Which is quite a downside for a tank stance.

All i'm saying is that stance dancing as war does have some downside it's not as perfect as people think. I'm not saying it's balanced between the 3 tanks though.

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Originally Posted by Sandamar

Inner Beast use one gcd so, ok tank swaping use 0 GCD but you'll use 1 afterward to use the most common tank buster defensive CD

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But as I said, yes IB is a GCD that you use afterwards, but it actually deals freaking 300 potency worth of damage ignoring Defiance's penalty while healing AND giving you 20% mitigation, whereas Grit/Shield Oath don't deal damage, don't heal you or whatever, it just gives you instantly 20% mitigation. And yeah, you have to turn Defiance on a bit earlier than what DRK/PLD would do with Shield Oath for tank busters, but keep in mind that because of the breaking combo shit for DRK and PLD, they have to do this too. You have to make sure to switch to your tanking stance before starting the next combo because breaking a combo with a non-damaging GCD is the worst DPS loss you can imagine.

In a situation where WAR needs to go into Defiance and use IB for the 20% from IB over Unchained -> 5 stacks -> IB (the latter of which will cost a healer a GCD or a CD) or use Equilibrium, a PLD could stay in SwO and use Sheltron + Tower Shield or a DRK could stay out of Grit and use DA + DM and get nearly the same effect. Also something else to note is that Defiance is still unaffected by healing abilities and WAR still receives slightly less healing per spell. I personally have no qualms with taking SwO off the GCD like Darkside as it would help PLD's ShO DPS/enmity problem and also make Grit/ShO no longer interrupt combos. I don't think making both oGCD like Defiance/Deliverance would be a good idea unless Defiance was altered like mentioned, though.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

When switching stances as a WAR :
+ You convert your stacks
+ You don't lose a GCD
+ You don't spend MP/TP
+ You don't break your current combo
- You don't instantly get Defiance's HP when switching from DPS to tanking stance

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-Less healing received from any healing ability/spell except Benediction compared to PLD/DRK
-Locked into Defiance for 10s, PLD/DRK can drop Shield Oath/Grit instantly after a tankbuster (PLD can reactivate Sword Oath after finishing its current combo with no Oath)
-Have to sacrifice a Fell Cleave and +10% crit for Inner Beast
-Inner Beast won't heal you to full unless you're full STR, you're using Berserk AND you get a crit so you still need healer help or you need to blow ANOTHER cooldown
-Can't even use Inner Beast outside of Defiance, PLD/DRK get access to all their cooldowns besides Blood Weapon
-WAR has the biggest conflict between using abilities offensively and defensively so either you're losing DPS or mitigation (IB vs FC, stacks from Berserk/Vengeance/Raw Intuition)

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

You forgot the part where, since heals and shields snapshot, you retain the benefit of buffed HoTs and shields when switching back to Deliverance compared to Grit/Sh.Oath. Very nitpicky I know, but it adds up pretty nicely over time, especially with Conval.
Completely agree with your post regardless.

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That also works the other way around: any WAR tanking in Deliverance needs to have Regen recast on them to get the full benefit when they change to Defiance.

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Originally Posted by Launched

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Yeah all of this is good and true, but that wasn't the point at all. We were strictly talking about the very moment when you switch stances. What you're talking about is just the choices you do during the whole fight when you choose to be either in Defiance or Deliverance every time you switch. That's what WAR is all about : constantly choosing between an offensive or a defensive option, and that's a whole other discussion.
I'm not really trying to say that WAR is OP, because I don't think it is. It's just the best designed job in the game and it works wonderfully. I also don't want Grit/Oaths to be off GCD; what I want is them to no longer interrupt combos and eventually SwO only being oGCD. I fully know and understand why WAR's stances are oGCD and work like they work compared to the other stances, but nobody can find a true and accurate justification of why the hell Grit/Oaths are breaking combos, while costing time and resource. Time and resource should be enough of a downside.

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Originally Posted by Launched

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These are valid points on paper but rarely a disadvantage in practice. When I alt-raid on WAR, compared to DRK, its a complete easy-mode snoozefest as far as stance dancing and the sheer number of buttons that need to be pushed.

The thing is, IB is so fucking worth the sacrifices you make for it. Its readily at your finger tips and stacking it with any *ONE* of WAR's other significant cooldowns (RI, ToB, Vengeance, hell even Foresight paired with a well timed Equilibrium) means you essentially have a huge tankbuster CD combo every 30-40s.

IB+RI - 30s - IB+ToB - 30s - IB+Ve - 30s - IB+RI - 30s - IB+whatever is left - 30s - IB+ToB - 30s - IB+RI - 30s - IB+Ve - 30s - etc. etc. ad nauseam. In between all of these they still have Zerk+Bloodbath, Conva, perhaps Foresight+Awareness, Second Wind, and every other Equilibrium, and extra IBs.

When people harp in-game on how well designed WAR is as opposed to using the term "overpowered" I instantly ask if they have every tank leveled and if they honestly don't feel like WAR is straight-up easy-mode on almost any fight in comparison. PLD is just a straight up struggle, and playing DRK correctly is like playing a DPS and a tank at the same time in terms of the number of fucking buttons you need to press ALLL the time. (Although in my opinion DRK feels the most -actually- balanced because I feel like it has the same degree of challenges balanced with power and advantages as most other non-tank jobs...) With WAR you have a cooldown for anything and everything and it just feels like minimal work needs to be done to survive. Even hopping into Deliverance while MTing for a triple cleave, you'll have RI and Vengeance up so even though you're out of Defiance you've got a 30% damage reduction going +100% parry rate, and these instances are planned around the pacing of the encounter so if a WAR is ever without one of those CDs for an upcoming tankbuster cause they were triple cleaving earlier, its the player and not the job.

It can do everything and it can do it so EASILY. I don't even play on my WAR that much, but whenever I do its like riding a bike it immediately comes back and its like "psh, i got this" whereas on DRK its like riding a bucking bronco (which is awesome in its own way) and PLD is just... annoying because the job is designed to play suboptimally because of enmity issues of all things.

The reason it's more of a struggle to play PLD/DRK in current content than WAR is because mitigation in the current raid is such a joke that you can wear near full STR and run DPS stance 99% of the time while 1-2 healers DPS. PLD/DRK have access to their full kit and nothing really changes for them in this meta, whereas WAR rarely if ever needs to IB or stay in Defiance for more than a few GCDs to run out Unchained. IB is great, but in the current meta it's only use is when Unchained is up if IB is even necessary (so early progression and some points in A3S/A4S still).

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The reason it's more of a struggle to play PLD/DRK in current content than WAR is because mitigation in the current raid is such a joke that you can wear near full STR and run DPS stance 99% of the time while 1-2 healers DPS. PLD/DRK have access to their full kit and nothing really changes for them in this meta, whereas WAR rarely if ever needs to IB or stay in Defiance for more than a few GCDs to run out Unchained. IB is great, but in the current meta it's only use is when Unchained is up if IB is even necessary (so early progression and some points in A3S/A4S still).

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I've been wondering this for a while now but never got around to asking, why is the current raid tier considered a "joke"?

From what I've observed, people are stating that it just doesn't hit hard enough. But shit hits for 25-50K (tankbusters/cleaves anyway). Where does this school of thought come from? I raided on DPS for the most part in 2.x, was it not possible to stance dance in between TBs there? Why is there this attitude that Savage bosses hit like a wet noodle even though every single tank that has been in Savage has been 1-shot by each boss during progression and tank busters will 1-shot you if you don't mitigate them just like in every other raid?

If its not because of the "low damage" then what is it? It can't be mechanics/DPS checks because that's why almost the entire playerbase hasn't cleared, and certainly a much larger percentage than had never cleared scob/fcob when they were relevant. Anyway I'm curious, and I've never gotten a straight answer, someone please enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

From what I've observed, people are stating that it just doesn't hit hard enough. But shit hits for 25-50K (tankbusters/cleaves anyway). Where does this school of thought come from? I raided on DPS for the most part in 2.x, was it not possible to stance dance in between TBs there? Why is there this attitude that Savage bosses hit like a wet noodle even though every single tank that has been in Savage has been 1-shot by each boss during progression and tank busters will 1-shot you if you don't mitigate them just like in every other raid?

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This school is bullshit honestly. I was raiding as a tank (did both WAR and PLD in every fight, but WAR main) in 2.X, and FFXIV's bosses have always hit like wet noodles outside of tank busters like they do now. In BCoB it was kinda hard hitting, like T1 when the boss started to get very mad and hitting harder and harder, T4 where you had to be a turtle to tank Dreadnoughts, T5 where there was a tankbuster every 35 seconds (YES 35 SECONDS) with many hard-hitting cleaves and auto-attacks in between. SCoB bosses started to hit like wet noodles. And that's where I started to tank aggressively. Giving up Fending accessories, starting to stance-dance while tanking, I remember how Melusine was doing pityful damage on the MT, how T6 was a joke, how T9 was only scripted burst moments with a lot of possibilities to safely drop Defiance while MTing, only T8 was kinda brutal on the MT. Then came FCoB, which was honestly exactly like Alex Savage currently is in terms of MT damage. After having acquired some gear, you were able to tank almost 100% of the time without your tanking stance except for T13 (which was incredibly fun to MT as a WAR btw, it required a lot of skill to perfectly manage your stacks in order to IB every single Flare Breaths AND Flattens). T12 only hit hard during Bennu phase and that was mitigated a LOT when you started to have enough DPS to push 4 Bennus, and later 3, which literally broke the phase. Other than that, only needed Defiance once every 2min to take a Revelation. T11 was almost completely DPS-stance tank-able as long as you were managing your CDs properly. T10 was a joke.

Tanks being able to stance-dance that much and wearing a lot of STR because the damage directed to them is too low is absolutely not a new thing, in fact, hard-hitting fights have always been very rare in this game since SCoB. It's just that before 3.0, high tank DPS wasn't required like it is now, and aggressive tanking was a niche while the vast majority of players were full VIT tanks and still cleared the DPS checks without issue. But groups with high tank DPS were able to accomplish faster clears, faster phase-pushing, making all fights easier. That's the reason why Yoshi decided to tune Alex Savage with tank DPS in mind, and that led us to the current tank mentality.

Ok. Sure. Let's just pretend like Phoenix and Bahamut didn't auto for literally the same amount that bosses in Alexander Savage do at level 60 with more Def/MDef, more HP, more healing, and stronger regens. Blah blah blah "tank busters hit so hard always!", you cry. Welcome to 2.0, wherein every tank buster ever has been the thing you mitigate always every single time 24/7. Do you know what you used to mitigate every tank buster in? Tank stance + CDs. Do you know what you mitigate it in now? DPS stance + CDs. Do you know why? Because a crit auto could kill you with low gear and a solid CD. That literally can not even happen now. It's insane how easy all these turns are as a tank even compared to T12 and 13 which weren't exactly grade school maths level of difficult.

Freyyy says he started playing more aggressively in SCoB, stance dancing and wearing more STR/Melded. Good! Yes! That's how it should be. Do you know what no longer exists now? Stance dancing. You start in your tank stance and you're out of it for the rest of the fight. Why?

But honestly sure, yeah, totally the same, whatever I can't be bothered.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

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I guess I should have phrased myself better, my question really just amounts to "what constitutes a joke to the rest of the tanking meta? And why do we call it a joke?" It seems like there's been plenty of lethal or borderline lethal damage throughout all the fights in the last 3 raid tiers (was late for BCoB). Without an explanation for this I've always just shrugged and thought it was people talking big. I mean yeah, you can wear melds/STR and drop tank stance half the time but you still have to mitigate things in some fashion, no free lunch there, unless your healers are straight-up carrying you. When we didn't overgear this content were people still loling at the damage? Were server/world first people as unimpressed and jaded as we seem to be?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

But honestly sure, yeah, totally the same, whatever I can't be bothered.

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Bruh, at least taste your food before reaching for the salt.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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Wow. I said that the current level of Alexander Savage tank damage started in FCoB. That's true. During progression, yeah we were playing more "turtle-y" than during Alex Savage progression, but after having gathered some gear, it was just like it is now in Savage. My PLD mate MTed T10 without using Shield Oath at all. Critical Rip was completely survivable with DPS stance + CD. We did it numerous time, and that was way before the echo. T11 was the same, no need for tanking stance even for heads and cleaves. T12 wasn't hitting THAT hard, seriously. Auto attacks could get some high crits, but it was completely survivable out of Defiance, again, I've done it, and before even 2.5, hunt upgraded gear and all that silly stuff. Only the Bennu phase and the tank busters were really threatening, but with a Revelation only every 60 seconds and a forced tank-swap, you had Vengeance up for each of them as a WAR, on top of Unchained thus permitting to go Defiance for an IB without losing a single bit of DPS (since there was no Deliverance back in the days), a piece of cake. ONLY T13 was not a joke damage wise. T13 was actually hitting HARD on the tank and was very punishing if you didn't mitigate properly.

From BCoB to FCoB, MT-intended damage slowly started to become lower and lower, it's not just new in Savage. That was my whole point. People starting to say that "Alexander Savage hits so low on tanks, it's so easy to tank in DPS stance blablablah" are just wrong. It doesn't come from Alex Savage. It comes from the whole encounter design and slowly became like that over time.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

It can't be mechanics/DPS checks because that's why almost the entire playerbase hasn't cleared, and certainly a much larger percentage than had never cleared scob/fcob when they were relevant.

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Honestly, this is probably exactly the reason right here. The problem with Savage content is not that it is hard on the Tank. The problem is finding 7 other players who are not pants on head stupid and fail at the mechs/Dps checks. This is not a new problem. It's been around forever.

If we're looking at mechs, though, then there is a difference. By comparison, the Mechs of Savage Alexander are substantially simpler than ... well, almost all of the Coils (T3 and 4 being exceptions), to be honest. Even T6 had more complicated mechanics than "kite resin puddle to edge. Continue Dps. Rinse. Repeat. Don't die. Done," and that was easily cleared with PUGs back in the day. Getting a Dps group who can meet these simple requests while outputting maximum Dps is like winning the lottery (unless you have a static, that is), and that is the problem.

Also, there is the added issue of nerfed difficulty. Keep in mind that we're comparing Savage Alexander to Normal Coils, and that the Coils were hit with extreme nerfs when they were thrown out into the DF. If you ever ran Second Coil before it was in the DF, you'd know that several of the mechanics were one hit wonders. Didn't turn away for petrify? Dead. Let they cyclops get too close? Dead. Didn't stop attacking during T6 spore move? Dead. Didn't kill a bulb fast enough before it got to growth phase 2? Dead. Miss pretty much any mechanic in T9? Dead. Etc, and this was all considered Normal difficulty.

If you're looking specifically at Tank Busters, than even those have changed. Almost all of the Tank Busters in HW hit hard, sure, but they're basically one and done hits. They did not hit with the same frequency or follow up as the Coils. In T5 you literally did not have enough CD's to mitigate all of the Tank Busters. T9 actually hit at the same frequency, only it was less noticeable because the boss rotation was interrupted more frequently. That being said, Nael followed up every one of her TB's with a second TB that was magic based. You got hit twice. Once the healers figured it out it was nothing to sweat over, but you could say the same for any mech, really. T6? When it was still PF locked you had to Tank swap to handle the frequency of those hits. Not even an option. A single Tank could not do it.

Now, does any of this make Savage somehow easier than the original Coils? Not really no. But I think that the learning curve was higher for the original Coil fights, and there are a lot of sub-par players out there who did not learn those fights thinking they can walk into Savage and make it out okay.

If a war sits on their stacks in deliverance, it's a dps loss by not fell cleaving, but if you misjudge and use stacks, you won't be able to get the mitigation from IB on stance change, potentially killing you.
^ you gotta make this call ~8 cooldowns max in advance

To avoid a dps penalty, pld needs to anticipate a max of 3 cooldowns, and if you misjudge, you *might* take a dps hit...
QQ combo break.

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Originally Posted by winsock

To avoid a dps penalty, pld needs to anticipate a max of 3 cooldowns, and if you misjudge, you *might* take a dps hit...

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What nonsense is that ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What nonsense is that ?

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I'll reword just for you Reynhart!
To avoid a dps penalty via a combo break, PLD needs to anticipate a max of 3 cooldowns. If you don't bother with anticipating, you *might* take a dps hit from a combo break.

This is as opposed to warrior who needs to anticipate a max of 8 cooldowns in advance to avoid a dps loss, or potentially death from a mitigation loss.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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Since this post is more oriented to players as a whole than tanking, I'd like to add most jobs got more complex than before and small, split-second mistakes can be very punishing for some (Enochian, BotD, DWT), where an error can lead to pretty substantial DPS losses. On top of that, a 100% scripted, time-lined borefest that needs to be executed pretty perfectly (90% with plenty of critical points would come close to perfect, and most people consider Alexander Savage to be exactly this as far as I can tell) is a recipe for disaster and at that point the main attribute contributing to performance isn't really being fast and furious, but rather being diligent and steadfast. Now you'd need 8 people to be able to do that + not have dumb stuff like lag or whatever occur (yes, even in 2015 and soon 2016 this stuff still plagues us).

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Originally Posted by winsock

To avoid a dps penalty via a combo break, PLD needs to anticipate a max of 3 cooldowns. If you don't bother with anticipating, you *might* take a dps hit from a combo break.

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Ok, then let me explain.
By switching to Sword Oath and switching back to Shield Oath, you "waste" 2 GCD for 0 damage. So, in order to gain DPS from stance dancing, you need time to do at least 2 full combos before switching back.
Which means...oh, look, 8 GCDs.

And Defiance is still offering its most useful benefit even after you take a hit, by increasing cure received. It means that PLD is more penalized for being in the wrong stance when the hit occurs.

Only get the Shield Oath "off" is not better realy to swap for only 2 full combo ?
sword oat only buff the auto attack , right ?

it's right the war can buff heal so, what he loose by swaping he get it by heal before swaping again, actualy i use only bloodbath myself, buffed with berserk, i tested, i got healed for at least 10K hp in delivrance, tank to the triple felt cleave. (the synergy of the skill)

A pld can do the trick by using fight on flight, blood bath but... you will heal 3K5 to 4k5 ... it's hard to compensate the loss of defence with kill a other defence CD when you want to swap with the PLD, so i don't play pld enough atm, so i can't figure myself if i would i will raid with my pld, can i count to kill one CD+bloodbath+fight on flight to dps ?
The CD from PLD is also often long cooldown.

the OP also tell :why the pld get interupted when casting Clemency: the cast of magic in this game always get interupted by heavy damage, i don't know personaly the minimum damage a pld have to take to get interupted someone know ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, then let me explain.
By switching to Sword Oath and switching back to Shield Oath, you "waste" 2 GCD for 0 damage. So, in order to gain DPS from stance dancing, you need time to do at least 2 full combos before switching back.
Which means...oh, look, 8 GCDs.

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You're off topic. You're arguing on vs off gcd
I was talking about the effect of the stance change resetting the combo...
you know.. like... the thread title..
That is why you're confused.
It's 3 tops

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Originally Posted by winsock

I was talking about the effect of the stance change resetting the combo...

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No. The fact that stance dance breaks combo is exactly why you need to do 2 full combos before switching back.

For example, let's take a RoH combo and a fast blade, for a total of 4 GCD. In ShO, you get, potency-wise : (150+200+260+150)*0.8 = 608 potency
Now, if you SwO just after the first Fast Blade, you get 150*0.8+0+200+260+100 from 2 AA in SwO = 680 potency

If you have to put back Shield Oath, you'd need about 7 GCD to still gain DPS by stance dancing, while still switching back to Shield Oath mid-combo.

If I were to argue only about the GCD vs OffGCD, I would have said that by "wasting" 2 GCD, you'd also let Goring Blade and/or Strength down wear off, thus losing either some damage or some mitigation...or both.

I think this entire comparison is incredibly unfair to PLD. As someone that plays both WAR and PLD, you basically took the non-existent, "I'm not playing my class correctly," scenario for WAR.

The normal scenario is you FC after a Heavy Swing or in the middle of Maim / SE / SP / SS / BB. You should never be FCing before a HS. If you're planning to mitigate an incoming tank buster, that means you will probably be using Vengeance which grants 1 stack. You also have Raw Intuition, Berserk, and Infuriate. So, if you FC at a bad time, it takes you a minimum of 0 GCDs to IB. Without Infuriate, it takes you a minimum of 2 GCDs. With just Berserk, RI or Vengeance, it takes you 5-6 GCDs. At most, it's 7 GCDs, never 8.

TBF, using some of those CDs to cover for a mistake is a DPS loss, too.

On PLD, you always need to plan ahead by 3 GCDs (the 3 combo GCDs) to not break a combo. If we're talking strictly about DPS loss, it's much more punishing than WAR. Losing a GCD while in ShO is something like a ~200 potency loss. Losing a GCD while in SwO is something like a ~300 potency loss. SwO is something like a ~100 potency gain per combo GCD. I think the gain in oGCDs is something like ~15 potency per GCD. You need to make up for ~500 lost potency through SwO uptime when stance dancing. To put that in perspective, if you somehow mess up so badly that you don't spend a single GCD in SwO, you basically just lost a Fell Cleave worth of potency.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

snip

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No, we're not talking about the same thing.
You're talking about the minimum commitment in order for a stance change to be worth it, I'm talking about avoiding dps loss from a combo break. Minimum commitment is a conversation to compare WAR stance cooldowns.

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the weird thing, is Tank pos swap on War is CD, and on Dark/PLD it's GCD. GCD cancel combo but
Inner beast is GCD but it don't cancel combo.
It's a weird logic. Nobody can understand why...
I think also if the PLD should be the best denfense Tank, it can be true but the difference is maybe a little too light. because against magic the defense advantage is killed.
it make actualy a good comp to be WAR/PLD against physic boss, and War/dark against magic boss

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

the weird thing, is Tank pos swap on War is CD, and on Dark/PLD it's GCD. GCD cancel combo but Inner beast is GCD but it don't cancel combo.

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Flash doesn't, Unleash doesn't, Clemency does...

It's obvious they pick that at random...