See that green icon at the bottom? yes, indeed, echo buff. Do you see that same icon in any of the fights this thread is discussing? no. So refrain from making invalid arguments to defend the fact that warriors can do all 3 roles, and they are pretty good at all 3 of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
True, not every warrior will be able to do things like this, but, just the fact it is possible, while no other party with the same setup (8ppl of the same class or 7 with 1 healer) without echo can do these things, makes you wonder if there is a problem.
Anyway for all of you who are so eager and ready to defend warriors, please show us wrong by providing proof, get your best skilled players, 8 of the same, or 7 plus a healer and go do ravana ex, thordan ex, and any other fight that has been successfully completed with a full war (or 7 +healer).
No more talk about numbers and what is easier, that is not what this thread is about, we all know that balanced parties are better, but that still doesn't denies the fact that it is simply illogical that warriors can clear NEW content, that hasn't been nerfed or echo-ed, without the need of any other classes beside maybe 1 healer.
Tank Balance - Thordan EX 7-WAR 1-WHM Clear (Really SE?)
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11-30-2015, 11:21 PMVogue
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11-30-2015, 11:26 PMExodus_KenpachiI am 100% postive I can clear Thordan EX with 7 PLDs 1 SCH and 7 DrKs and one WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogue
All the tanks have comparable skills/tools, it is just that WAR/DrKs are set up better.
So please shut up because it is clear YOU are the one who doesn't know what they are talking about. -
11-30-2015, 11:34 PMVogue
do it then?
Just go ahead and do it, no more talking :D just do it and proof us wrong. -
11-30-2015, 11:36 PMArkNova
You are going to record that fight right Exodus? I really wanna see it. what kind of accessories will all your pld be using? str or vit?
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11-30-2015, 11:38 PMReynhartYes, DRK can bring nearly the same damage as WAR...but for a far shorter time. And brings a LOT less mitigation out of his comfort zone. The point is that WAR has no flaw. There is no "tradeoff" for that brute force. This is not a PLD issue, it's totally on WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
Saying that I didn't clear the highest difficult content is a fact...saying that I don't play tank at a "half respectable level" is just...being an ignorant jerk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
I've played all tanks and the difference is obvious in any content. Of course, PLD's lack of DPS or DRK's lack of physical mitigation is not a huge deal out of savage, but stating that it isn't here is just denying the obvious in fear of losing one's precious WAR toy.
Again, the fact that an all team WAR can clear content as fast as usual setup have nothing to do with PLD.
Please do, we'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
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11-30-2015, 11:55 PMMagiusNecros
Main problem I see with Warrior is that it brings tons of utility and with no drawbacks. You have amazing self sustain, lots of damage reduction, effectively infinite TP, very great burst DPS through self buffs and your very own DPS stance and Fell Cleaves comparable to that of a BLM's Fire 4. Which I remind you other then building your stacks require no cast time and you can move while doing it. Dark Knight on a good day can match or come near par with WAR but only when MTing. And cannot sustain that kind of power as much as a Warrior can.
I think the main complaint to take away here is that 7 Warriors are clearing the same content in roughly the same timeframe that a balanced party is. Which either means the DPS Warrior brings is amazing or the content cleared is mechanic driven. Or both.
If Kenpachi can show that 7 PLD and 7 DRK can clear in the same timeframe as 7 WAR then fine all is good. But we'll see. -
12-01-2015, 12:02 AMSyzygianYou forgot Brocifer, Broseidon, Brodin, and Brodecahedron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
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12-01-2015, 12:10 AMReynhartJust a little question on that..Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
Let's suppose you don't manage to do it.
Will it means that WAR brings too much DPS, or that DRK and/or PLD bring too little ? And why ? -
12-01-2015, 12:16 AMArkNovaNo one likes a nerf, the argument will be drk and pld need a buff. But I did notice that some of the people defending warrior are warriors. I see the same reaction from warriors in my ls, go figure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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12-01-2015, 12:21 AMMagiusNecros
Warriors defending Warriors. Not surprising. The favored option is always going to be buff DRK and PLD to WAR's level. And then people will want to bitch about how it doesn't matter which tank you bring. They'll all perform the same. And do fine. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
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12-01-2015, 12:22 AMExodus_KenpachiThordan is mechanic heavy and had very low DPS checks so I have no doubt I will be able to clear it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
DrK needs a slight TP management buff or a way to siphon TP as well (2nd hit of power slash combo maybe) but that is only becuase I feel tanks should never be in a position where they floor out. Honestly I wish they would just let DrK and PLD have invigorate.
PLDs issue is MT DPS, no real utility, and clunky skills.
Everyone keeps focusing on personal DPS and forgetting that support DPS is a thing. I feel like PLD should be the BRD of tanks which would solve everyone's issue with them. -
12-01-2015, 12:25 AMReynhartLike most people, I don't really like jobs to be nerfed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkNova
But, from the way I see it, if "all WAR" can clear as fast as usual setup and "all PLD"/"all DRK" can't clear, or can clear much slower, which should be intended, since they're tanks, the wrong numbers should be on WARs.
A little reminder, though. I have nothing personal against WAR, I find the job really fun to play, even though it's my least favorite tank. Should PLD or DRK stand undoubtedly above, I would do the same to point out the flaws. And if the next raid tier is specifically designed for PLD, and DRK is left out for an ideal PLD+WAR setup, I'll do the same too.
That didn't really answer the question :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
So, let's change it a little. If you're only able to clear it much slower. Would it mean that WAR is too fast or PLD is too slow, and why ? -
12-01-2015, 12:32 AMFreyyyWhat kind of accessories do you think WARs doing this used ? PLDs are gonna use the exact same set. I'm very confident that this can be done with 7 PLD as well. This fight is a joke DPS-wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkNova
People still arguing that WAR has to be nerfed are starting to give me cancer. Why don't people just want the other tanks to be buffed at WAR level instead of absolutely wanting WAR to get nerfed ? That's just stupid. WAR is the result of the best job design they did in the game, it should be the BASE EXAMPLE of the amount of work they should put on balancing EVERY jobs. WAR DOES NOT NEED A NERF. IT NEEDS TO REMAIN AS IT IS (okay maybe nerf Equilibrium's TP restore, I'm okay for that). The other tanks (ESPECIALLY PLD) should be brought to WAR's level. I can't understand why people ABSOLUTELY want to see WAR being nerfed like that. It's like, let's say, your friend has done 3 drawings. The first one is very beautiful and perfect, the second one is almost perfect, and the third one is ugly as fuck. Would you say to him "hey, you should re-do the first two. You should make them ugly as fuck like the third." ? Or would you say "Hey, you should re-do the third one, it's ugly as fuck and I know you can do better by looking at the other two. The second could also get some adjustments but is already very beautiful as it is" ? -
12-01-2015, 12:38 AMReynhartBecause it's expected that tanks bring far less DPS that actual DPS. So, if a team of WAR can bring close to the same global DPS output (i.e the same clear time) while other tanks are lower, it means that WAR are too high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
And again, WAR's design has an obvious flaw...the fact that WAR has no real flaw.
And also the fact that, by boosting other jobs, you'll just make all content less challenging.
Your point with the drawing is not really accurate, since there's no point of reference for what drawing he should be able to do. -
12-01-2015, 12:41 AMArkNovaIt was a subtle joke to the threads bitching about how tanks need to wear str or vit, sorry it flew over your head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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12-01-2015, 12:41 AMFreyyyWhat you seem to fail to understand is that in this specific fight, everything perfectly lines up with WAR's burst phase (Berserk). That's why they're so high and they bring almost DPS-levels of DPS. You also seem to forget that there is only one healer, compared to a normal group with 2 of them. I'm very confident that a group with 5 DPS and 1 healer is gonna wreck the shit out of Thordan in a faster way than this 7 WAR clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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12-01-2015, 12:42 AMBrian_This is why no one should take you seriously. You look at that video, the gear people are wearing, the lodestones provided, the fact that it's on the 23rd of November 2 weeks after early progression, and the kill time and you don't think that's slow? Have you even done Thordan EX? In that video, he ends phase 1 at 74%. Decent groups will all skip the last cleave and have Thordan sub 70%. Most decent farm groups will have Thordan dead when that group is at 15%. A group with multiple A4S clearing players geared in what is likely full BiS is going to perform a little better than just a decent group. To give you an idea, I've been in farm groups that have pushed phase 1 at 67% and killed shortly after the stacked mechanics in phase 8, ~21% before this group kills. And, that's with 2 healers (though the SCH basically is just DPSing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Sure thing, bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
This is not about proving anything to me. I couldn't care less. This is about the legitimacy of your posts and the credibility of what you're saying. And, on too many occasions, you've proven you don't know enough to be having any respectable conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Usually, I don't really care about individual progression when gauging the validity of posts. If what's said makes sense and checks out against basic knowledge, then who cares if they're a casual or if they've cleared A4S. The issue arises when the posts look like yours and are just littered with garbage. -
12-01-2015, 12:50 AMExodus_KenpachiClasses don't need "flaws" they need to lack a utility that another class brings. You keep pushing me to say that PLD needs a DPS buff, which IT DOES NOT. PLD needs a UTILITY buff that allows other party member to output more DPS. Like I said previously, think the BRD of tanks. They could grant healer buffs, grant raidwide shields and mitigation, they could attach a debuff to RA that increases blunt damage and then make shield swipe blunt damage and then BOOM they are MNKs favorite tank. There are a million things that SE could do to make PLDs sought after and personal DPS increase is not one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Also you do not want tanks to have TOO low DPS because then people won't bring them. This whole "it is expected so therefore it should be" bullshit needs to leave your brain.
Honestly if they made PLD a BRD-esque tank they would be a favorer OT for progression and I would actually main it because it would be loads of fun -
12-01-2015, 12:51 AMVogueExactly this, if they were to buff DRK and PLD to the same level as WAR, then what prevents people from forcing full tank parties, they aren't as squishy as all other DPS, and will be able to put out enough damage to clear the content, so why not make things easy, we all know people love easy fights :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
So lets say they buff pld and drk, then eventually have to buff the dps because of the issue stated above, which means all fights will need to be re-balanced or they wouldn't be challenging anymore, so isn't simpler to just adjust warrior to the other tanks and if needed, buff up some of the dps? -
12-01-2015, 12:52 AMAiio
Nothing wrong with this video, nor the class. Clear would most likely be attainable with 7 PLD/DRK composition too given current gear and the fight is more a mechanic/memory check rather than DPS.
What bothers me is people in this thread talking about WAR needing to be nerfed, when it really doesn't. WAR is very well designed and only appears strong because there have been some very bad class designs for the other two tanks. What people should be more aware of is that if they buffed the other two tanks to their own unique designs and traits, then everyone would stop saying WAR needs a nerf. -
12-01-2015, 12:55 AMSyzygian
War's dps is not the issue and never was. The only thing that is, is the fact that they have infinite tp and can survive in the absence of a healer considerably longer than any other job.
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12-01-2015, 12:55 AMReynhartSo, what do WAR lack ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
Do MNK stop using Dragon Kick in their optimal rotation, nowadays ? Because if they do, they won't care about PLD bringing a blunt debuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
Or maybe they'll bring them...you know...to tank ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
Which is one of the reason they can sustain good DPS even after their burst phase. It's also one the reason that DRK and PLD have such a low DPS on longer fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
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12-01-2015, 12:58 AMVogueThere is only one healer because Warriors HP pool even when in DPS stance, is so high that they require little to none healing. So great DPS with little chance of dying from aoes that cannot be avoided. Still shows that something is wrong in this picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
Idea! leave warrior amazing dps alone, but make them as squishy as all other DPS while in Deliverance, sounds fair? easy fix, no? -
12-01-2015, 01:04 AMExodus_KenpachiCurrently WARs lack the ability to buff any class other than a tank or NIN DPS, they lack any sort of party MP/TP regen, they lack things that no other tank currently has but that they COULD have. Everyone is so afraid of the dredged homogenization monster but keep bitching for PLD to become a WAR clone. How about people bitch for SE to do something innovative with their class and make it grea and unique like they did with WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Also if a tanks DPS is too low people will just bring a DPS in VIT gear... You haven't played that many MMOs have you? Tank DPS has always been a slippery slope.
As for MNK, yes if they have another MNK to apply debuff then they drop Dragon Kick for a higher DPS rotation lol... -
12-01-2015, 01:05 AMExodus_KenpachiYou do realize that all tanks share the same HP pools in OT stance right? That is a gear thing... Not a WAR thing... lol...wow.. Just... Wow...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogue
You are the perfect picture of people who should not be posting about balance -
12-01-2015, 01:07 AMVogueyes but can the other 2 tanks do the numbers warriors can in long fights?Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
And don't get mad because I bring valid points to the conversation, you keep saying about how Warrior is a special snowflake, who can self heal quite often and by quite a lot, also can dps pretty good, can tank while in dps stance, and yet you refuse to see that they can perform all the 3 main roles in this game, and stop saying things about support abilities, why they need a support ability anyway, the ones they "need" they already have them? TP regen, heal, dmg reductions and damage buffs, sure give them trick attack as well, maybe a party wide heal also? that will make them too strong right?
This is not about how useful a warrior is to the party members, it is about how they can play so many roles in 1 single class.
HP Down~ -
12-01-2015, 01:14 AMSyzygianUhh your tp pool lasts a lot longer than your burst phase no matter what job you're playing, the hell does this post even mean? There's all of about 1 fight in the game right now that has sufficient uptime for a drk or pld to be tp flooring. Yet people talk about it like its this prolific, crippling issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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12-01-2015, 01:43 AMExodus_KenpachiAll three tanks can preform all the jobs at once lmfao.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogue
WAR has Fell Cleave, Berserk, Maim, and Eye for DPS. Path, Bloodbath, IB, and Equilibrium for heals, and duh tank CDs.
PLD has Clemency, Bloodbath, and Devine Veil for heals, Goring Blade, RA, and FoF for DPS, and tank CDs
DrK has Bloodbath, Sole Survivor, Soul Eater, and Abyssal Drain for heals, Bloodweapon, Carve and Spit, and like 5 other oGCDs for DPS, and tanks CDs.
You are not bringing up ANY valid points or arguments. You are only echoing other people's misinformed opinions of duuuuuurrr WAR deepz OP and duuuurrrrr WAR haz 2 much HP...
Seriously man do you even tank? -
12-01-2015, 01:45 AMkarateorangutangMaybe I'm missing something here, but how are WAR's less squishy in their DPS stance? They retain the same amount of CD's every other tank does when they are in deliverance. In fact they lose IB entirely in favor or a more damaging alternative. They also lose the heal off of equilibrium. If your looking at pure survivability then deliverance doesn't seem to be any better than SwO or Darkside (only). PLD retains shield and DRK doesn't effectively lose an on demand cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogue
I'm not gonna argue that WAR isn't a powerful class. I think your making mountains out of molehills here though. Correct me if I'm wrong though. -
12-01-2015, 01:47 AMFreyyyIt's completely accurate. What drawing he should be able to do = the best he can do. The best SE can do in terms of job balance is what they did with WAR. They should bring the same level of job design to every job, at least for tanks. This simple thing would bring a lot more balance to the tanks. When you have the talent to do something very good, not using it is a waste and a sign of laziness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Solo healing Thordan EX with 2 tanks and 5 DPS has been done. Yes it's easier with 7 WARs, but the raid DPS is much lower than with 5 DPS. I start to believe that people arguing about that only did Thordan with shitty PUGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vogue
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12-01-2015, 01:50 AMArkNovaQuote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
Clemency is kind of garbage and Devine veil is kind of garbage, the dev team have already commented on those 2 skill. Only 2 of those jobs get blood bath from cross classing and they only last 15 seconds. And damn son how about you level a real DPS class all you got to show for is 3 lvl 60 tanks go expand your horizon. -
12-01-2015, 01:53 AMFreyyyYes. And this only proves our point. WAR doesn't need to be nerfed, PLD needs to be buffed. PLD has garbage skills, you're saying it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkNova
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12-01-2015, 02:07 AMExodus_KenpachiI have every class at 50. And a few DPS classes at 60. My main character is on Lamia and due to the server sucking ass for raiding and the transfer locks I created a new account on Gilgamesh.... Thanks for trying to stalk me though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArkNova
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12-01-2015, 02:08 AMArkNovaI don't recall saying warrior needs a nerf but who knows. Yoshi has stated paladin will be the best mitigation tank so maybe he will deliver or his foot will end up in his mouth but there's adjustments that do need to be made to tank dps and that's being addressed in 3.2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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12-01-2015, 02:10 AMArkNovaAnytime bae <3Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
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12-01-2015, 02:13 AMExodus_KenpachiMost people on the OF arguing in favor of their misinformation ARE the shitty people we get saddled with in PUGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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12-01-2015, 02:24 AMMrTherm
This thread makes me lul at how many people are butthurt for various reasons. Keep it coming! Im going to get some popcorn!
But yea. 7 of one job with one healer isnt exaclty broken, but it sure is unbalanced.
Could a fleet of PLDs do it? Maybe, but its pretty doubtful. DPS could be an issue. They might spend far to much time uwing clemency to assist with cures and sacrifice to much dps doing so.
Could a fleet of i DRKs do this? Highly doubtful. The only real self heal they have requires -20% dps loss. It would stress the healer out to much.
Could any fleet of strickly DPS jobs do this? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No.
Could a single tank and fleet of healers do this? Maybe, depends on if they can pass the acc requirement. Err. Wait. Two tanks required. So 6 healers.
So yea. It is a bit unbalanced that WARs can pull things like this off. Broken? Nope. Just balanace issues. -
12-01-2015, 02:33 AMExodus_KenpachiWhat? Where are you coming up with a 20% DPS loss lol? Last time I checked DA SE was 400 POT and a very good self heal... Also bloodweapon+bloodbath is no joke...Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTherm
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12-01-2015, 02:58 AMKabooaBecause it only heals while Grit is on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
Grit is a 20% DPS loss, a combo breaker so you can't weave it, and costs about as much as Dark Arts. -
12-01-2015, 03:13 AMDuelleExcept it shouldn't matter which tank you bring, as at that point you're bringing the player more than the class. I'm not against varying flavor between jobs, but taking it to extremes (which is reflected in current tank design) does more harm than good in the long run. As I've said in the past, it's only going to get worse when more tanks are added to the roster.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
And what you're suggesting brings problems of their own. The goal is to make the tanks interchangable, not try to make one more sought out than the other. Not to mention any group buffs tread dangerously close to being required, which is also something else we want to avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi
This isn't like WoW pally blessings that can be covered by the healer and DPS in addition to the tank. You're limiting performance boosts to a tank class. And Royal Authority having a blunt debuff makes absolutely no sense.
Only when the alternative is other tanks that deal more damage or players end up discovering ways of having DPS classes hold aggro and survive mob attacks.Quote:
Also you do not want tanks to have TOO low DPS because then people won't bring them. This whole "it is expected so therefore it should be" bullshit needs to leave your brain.