How do these changes fix the issues with Paladin?

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Shield Swipe spam currently is a DPS loss. If A) Goring Blade is already on your target and B) You don't need threat (Halone) you should be using C) Royal Authority as it's higher average potency to complete a combo. If a boss is about to change phase with no chance of keeping your combo going (A1S, A3S only) you might see a slight gain by using a Shield Swipe before they go away, but only if your next move would have been a Fast Blade.

So basically never.

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At a 2.5s GCD, you have the option of reapplying GB's DoT 1.5 seconds early or 1 second late (SS once). [Take your pick.]
At a 2.4s GCD you have the option of replacing it 2.4 seconds early, or 0 seconds late (SS once). [Pick is obvious.]
I'll admit, I've got a lot more SS than I want right now, but for me Swiping once per GB is a definite dps increase.

I mean when Poping Bulwark you have a chance to spam SS with 210 potency for the next 15 sec without priming something. I'm just trying to see how its a DPS loss by doing that. Of course it wont be possible to do that after 3.1.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I mean when Poping Bulwark you have a chance to spam SS with 210 potency for the next 15 sec without priming something. I'm just trying to see how its a DPS loss by doing that. Of course it wont be possible to do that after 3.1.

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Because the average potency of almost every combo move Paladin does except for Halone combos is higher than 210. Halone combos are 203.33 average potency for reference.

Goring Blade: 150 + 230 + 540 or (220+320)/3 = 306.667 potency per combo move average.
Royal Authority: 150 + 200 + 340/3 = 230 potency per combo move average.

Using either of these combos averages higher potency-per-button-push than using Shield Swipe spam, which would be just 210.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

At a 2.5s GCD, you have the option of reapplying GB's DoT 1.5 seconds early or 1 second late (SS once). [Take your pick.]
At a 2.4s GCD you have the option of replacing it 2.4 seconds early, or 0 seconds late (SS once). [Pick is obvious.]
I'll admit, I've got a lot more SS than I want right now, but for me Swiping once per GB is a definite dps increase.

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Clipping DoTs is not necessarily a strict DPS loss, and in the case of Goring Blade it's still better to just re-apply it and get straight back to Royal Authority combos. If you clip early and only get 7 ticks of the Goring Blade:

150 + 230 + 500 or (220+280)/3= 293.33 potency per combo move average, which would then send you back into the 230 potency average Royal Authority combos.

To compound this, let's assume that using Shield Swipe allowed you to extend uptime on Goring Blade with 100% precision, you're adding a 210 potency move to the Goring Blade combo that reduces it's overall effective potency versus clipping.

150 + 230 + 210 + 540 (220+ 320)/4= 282.5 potency per combo move on average.

That's why the only way it's a DPS increase is if your next move will be less than 210 potency and you'll lose your combo due to the boss becoming untargettable, a.k.a. Fast Blade.

I know this isn't a thread I started but thank you guys for getting back on topic and also having awesome conversations going on right now. Thumbs up for maturity.

Something I never understood...can anybody explain a good reason why the damage on Spirits Within scales with your current HP? The damage difference between missing even a few of your HP and being at full HP is really drastic making it least effective while you're Main Tanking, and it's an OGCD move that will generally never hit for 300 potency since holding it and hoping to get healed for full is a DPS loss regardless. I get that it's part of how the ability worked in 1.0, and yes it's a free move, but honestly it seems more like a relic of an outdated system than some kind of dynamic game design. It just seems like a really obvious target if the developers want to help address Paladin DPS, among other areas.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Something I never understood...can anybody explain a good reason why the damage on Spirits Within scales with your current HP? The damage difference between missing even a few of your HP and being at full HP is really drastic making it least effective while you're Main Tanking, and it's an OGCD move that will generally never hit for 300 potency since holding it and hoping to get healed for full is a DPS loss regardless. I get that it's part of how the ability worked in 1.0, and yes it's a free move, but honestly it seems more like a relic of an outdated system than some kind of dynamic game design. It just seems like a really obvious target if the developers want to help address Paladin DPS, among other areas.

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Personally it feels like the devs looked at Spirits Within, then looks at Pld, and gives them the bird with a big, happy grin, or that is how I imagine it. lol But really this skill with it's weird condition attacted to it feels really wrong for a tank, meant to idk tank dmg. -_-

I think the design of Spirits Within was actually an attempt to make a damage skill somehow scale off tankiness and Max Vitality. The less damage you take, and the bigger health pool you have, the higher chance that you'll be on a higher percentage of health when you use it.

I'm sure that's the case at least. Either that, or they sort of though "let's give them a DPS skill for use when offtanking but stays primarily for a silence when tanking". I think they might have just misunderstood just how much people want to use a 300 potency ogcd attack.

Probably right Sapphidia, since SW was a leftover skill from 1.0 where people stacked VIT and +Enmity stats.
1.0 was both hard to stay alive and keep enmity in.

Dungeons as Paladin:
Cooldowns; are long on Sentinel/Hallowed making usage on trash/non-critical situations dubious(?). Sheltron, Bulwark, and Rampart do not offer significant advantages over Dark Knight or Warrior's toolkits.
Shield Bash; Stunning is too costly - period. Monk/Dragoon/Ninja/White Mage can all CC more effectively.
AOE: two tools; Circle of Scorn & Flash - lowest AoE Damage output & Threat.
Shield Swipe; Currently useful to cycle through targets and Pacify - will no longer be useful in large group situations post-3.1

Hallowed Ground is the only thing - might make things easier with AST/SCH, WHM invalidates HG with Stunlock (Holy) & Benediction.

Raids as Paladin:
Cooldowns; Bulwark & Sheltron only useful in A2S or on AA damage, Hallowed Ground & Sentinel's long CDs makes them critical use only - if you mess up you're unable to recover - "Paladin is the best (???) at mitigation"
Damage; Lowest DPS output in both MT/OT slots - even post-3.1
AOE; Same issues as in dungeons.
Shield Swipe; post-3.1 will actually be used - but only as MT
Enmity; (scales off STR) lowest Enmity gain, requires Ninja to maximize DPS output*
TP; runs out flat at 02:40 & post-3.1 02:55-03:00 depending on procs & enmity rotation requirements.
Block/Sheltron/Bulwark; Parry gain causes Block loss, only Phys., realiably only lowers AA on most procs in current raids, useless as OT
Cover; only effects Phys. damage, cannot be mitigated, has limited range.
Divine Veil; scales off HP (VIT does not fit the meta), does not shield the Paladin, cannot be proc'd with WHM/SCH/AST Ability heals or Clemency
Clemency; Long cast - either lands too late or generates healer enmity via overheal, easily interrupted, MP cost, useful as OT(? DPS Loss)
Spirits Within; scales off current HP (VIT + current HP%) & STR (Primary potency modification Attack Power)... (???)
RoH; STR down - lowers Phys. damage, essentially only useful for AA, enmity component risky use in OT slot (DPS loss)

Offensive CDs: one - Fight or Flight 90s recast

No raid-wide damage buff utilities, no raid-wide debuff utilities. (vs. WAR kit, DRK kit)

The "better mitigation" myth;
Primals; HG lets you cheese one mechanic in Ravana EX.
A1S; Functionally worse than WAR & DRK.
A2S; Functionally on par, lacks utility & DPS compared with WAR or DRK.
A3S; Allows you to cheese a party swipe via HG, a Wash Away with Tempered Will, Stuns on Adds - low DPS or missed CD rotation causes wipes.
A4S; Functionally worse than DRK. Stun is nice? TP issues, DPS issues.

"Sentinel is 10% better than Shadow Wall" but most tank busters are Magical; see DA-D.Mind + Shadow Wall.



I don't think any minor fix will change any of this. TP fixes won't change any of this. Paladin has an ill-functioning toolkit post-3.0, and an arguably worse toolkit post-3.1 but slightly more DPS.

Personally I did Paladin main thinking gear might solve it's issues - it is my highest iLv; and it functions worse than both my lower iLv WAR & DRK.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Raids as Paladin:
Cooldowns; Bulwark & Sheltron only useful in A2S or on AA damage, Hallowed Ground & Sentinel's long CDs makes them critical use only - if you mess up you're unable to recover - "Paladin is the best (???) at mitigation"

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I pop Bulwark in A1S if I get Prey. I barely need heals at all from it.

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Personally I did Paladin main thinking gear might solve it's issues - it is my highest iLv; and it functions worse than both my lower iLv WAR & DRK.

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Yep... My PLD at i201 is arguably worse than my DRK at i193. :/

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

At a 2.5s GCD, you have the option of reapplying GB's DoT 1.5 seconds early or 1 second late (SS once). [Take your pick.]
At a 2.4s GCD you have the option of replacing it 2.4 seconds early, or 0 seconds late (SS once). [Pick is obvious.]
I'll admit, I've got a lot more SS than I want right now, but for me Swiping once per GB is a definite dps increase.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

150 + 230 + 500 or (220+280)/3= 293.33 potency per combo move average

150 + 230 + 210 + 540 (220+ 320)/4= 282.5 potency per combo move on average.

That's why the only way it's a DPS increase is if your next move will be less than 210 potency and you'll lose your combo due to the boss becoming untargettable, a.k.a. Fast Blade.

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There's no point in comparing their values over 4 GCDs when GB requires nearly 10 GCDs (at 2.5, or exactly 10 at 2.4) to deal its full damage. It should be considered in the window of its actual rotation.

Let's look at the potency dealt over 2 GBs, 48 seconds, using the 2.4 GCD, starting from the application of the first GB and ending in the application of a third, under the two situations.

Clip: [500]+150+200+340+150+200+340+150+230+500 :: +150+200+340+150+200+340+150+230+500+150+200

>> 500 + (690*4) + (880*2) + 150 + 200 >> 5,420

Swipe: [540]+210+150+200+340+340+150+200+340+150+230+540 :: +210+150+200+340+150+200+340+150+230+540

>> 540 + (690*4) + (920*2) + (210*2) >> 5,560

That's a 120 lead in potency, (not so) coincidentally the exact sum of simply having not clipped off 1 tick of each GB.

Now, if you blame my window of observation for these results, consider:
With the GCD thereafter, Clip will add 340 and Swipe will only add 150 (5760 vs. 5710, clip's lead), but...
(but that is not a rotation; ultimately you will still only be able to use two RA combos. You may reach your later instances of RA sooner, but you won't have more, rotationally, than the Swipe rotation.)
Add a second GCD and that's 150 to Clip and 200 to Swipe, and they're equal (5910).
Add a third GCD and again Swipe leads, 200 vs. 340 (6110 vs. 6250).
And it will continue to vary with the latest nuke, which Clip will reach faster, until Swipe's higher rotational strength exceeds the difference between the start and end of combo (5 RAs). But if we're looking at rotations here, then... look at the full rotation (GB window).

Again, this is dependent on, explicitly, a 2.4s GCD as on my own PLD. At 2.5s you are actually looking at the possibility of wasting a tick vs. missing an opportunity for a tick, where there isn't nearly such a clearly preferable rotation. But if look at GB as it is, rather than as a spammable weaponskill, with the GCD you quoted, using Swipe once per GB is quite simply a better rotation (unless you somehow know the exact second at which a boss will jump, would have been able to end with a RA instead of an SB if you hadn't Swiped, and if said boss will jump in less than 4 completed GBs).

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

You're splitting hairs over what is universally proven a DPS loss. The same logic on DoT clipping applies to every other job in the game, in every definitive rotational guide. As long as the clip is greater potency than any other possible choice on button push, you gain DPS by clipping and losing a tick. If you Shield Swipe, you lose DPS versus any other choice Paladin can make. It won't matter in a day, so I guess it ultimately doesn't matter. Yay off the GCD!

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Again, it has nothing to do with the alternative potencies for that button push. It has to do with the rotation that will be caused by pushing that button.

There's always a move that is stronger than a clip. It's the same DoT, without the clip. Unless avoiding the clip prevents you from using a better timed move down the line (again, a matter of... avoiding clipping), you should always avoid the clip. You want to get the most out of every buff and debuff. If it requires that I use a individually inferior filler to get, in total, more out of my overall rotation, I will do so.

A Monk is at Raptor form with 6s left on Demolish, 8s left on DK, 10s left on Twin, and Fracture not currently up or with less than 4s remaining. Is he going to clip or Fracture? Or would you rather sac 9.6% of your Demo and 13.3% of your DK and Twin, in order to get to the same exact loss of potential potency 1 GCD earlier as the next Demo nears its end?

DRG's rotation is unique in that, frankly, it has two GCD plateaus, one of which fits the needs of Geirskogul/WT/F&C, and another pre-BotD rotation that fits its original ability windows (CT/FT combos, HT, Phb). The 3.x rotation must sac a full CT in order to hit HT and Phb at their perfect times and simply because the only alternative to using another CT 5-7 seconds early is to apply it 5 to 3 seconds late. A pre-F&C/WT DRG can fit 2 Full Thrusts, Heavy Thrust, and Phlebotomize into each CT, losslessly, or 3 Full Thrusts and losing HT's buff on its reapplication only, using a 2.33-2.35 GCD, such that each buff/debuff duration is reapplied with less than a half-second to spare. To say that a job that has shattered its original rotation in order to uniquely support a 600p/min oGCD specific to its job is a prime example for all others is ridiculous. You have abilities, and you seek to get the most out of them, for the greatest overall dps... That's the prime rule--greatest overall potency, not 'most potency in a given GCD'. (How do I not get myself into this bind? > what's my best option, now that I'm in an inferior position?)

Food for thought: by increasing Skill Speed in a 3.x rotation and dropping Phlebotomize, you can fit an extra FT (and therefore WT/ into each CT, allowing an extra Geirskogul per minute, a free, no-compromise, 200 potency or 3.33 pps. In the normal rotation, Phb is maintained perfectly, providing 410 every 24s, or 17 pps, but at the cost of a GCD and other rotational opportunities. Maintaining HT into the next HT gives another .85 pps. An extra FT+1 per CT gives an extra 1000 potency per 30s, or 33.3 pps. Getting another 2-3 ticks off CT gives it another 35-70 potency or 1.7-2.3 pps. If Skill Speed were weighted equally with Critical strike, which then would you pick?

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Originally Posted by Zeonx

they share the same timer.

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You mean the global cooldown? No crap, yo u don't say... gcd ability on the gcd....

I *like* my on gcd stun. I can spam the crap out of a SIX SECOND STUN if I need to. ogcd stuns are shorter and tend to be used on cd for the damage component.

Pld tp problem is when offtanking.

After change, SS being oGCD and not being used essentially makes you bad. Free damage.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Truth be told, I think the LB change was meant to help out DPS options more than tanks, but despite the prolonged suffering PLD's and possibly DRK's will have to endure it might make SE see the see how lopsided WAR is favored now that the LB limitation is gone.

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I'm almost certain the double class limit break change only affects solo queue able content, while the old method *plus*the three of one type rule added affects Savage (and anything else you must have a full party to queue for (Thordan).

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I'm almost certain the double class limit break change only affects solo queue able content, while the old method *plus*the three of one type rule added affects Savage (and anything else you must have a full party to queue for (Thordan).

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Yeah, I had admittedly misread it on my initial readthrough.

The LB change is meant to discourage solo tank / solo heal compositions for content going forward and back to 2.x.

One tank or one healer means three or more of another type.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Yep... My PLD at i201 is arguably worse than my DRK at i193. :/

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My 158 DRK feels like she's a better tank than my 196 PLD. DRK has an enormous AoE toolkit, mitigation that's just about as good as PLD (in some cases better), and a more compelling gameplay style.

And to agree with OP, these changes won't help that. Sure, I'll do more DPS against the mob I have targeted. But I'm not worried about that mob; I'm worried about the seven others that the BLM keeps pulling off of me. And Flash only does so much.

EDIT: I should not have to save my only offensive CD for AoE enmity or risk losing all of it. CoS doesn't do the trick without it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Stuff.

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You're splitting hairs over what is universally proven a DPS loss. The same logic on DoT clipping applies to every other job in the game, in every definitive rotational guide. As long as the clip is greater potency than any other possible choice on button push, you gain DPS by clipping and losing a tick. If you Shield Swipe, you lose DPS versus any other choice Paladin can make. It won't matter in a day, so I guess it ultimately doesn't matter. Yay off the GCD!

Thought DRG clipped midway in their normal rotation always? Or I'm remembering wrong in my half awake state.

It's not midway, it's more like when CT has 3ish seconds left on it depending on Skill Speed. But again, it doesn't really matter anymore, lol.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

The LB change is meant to discourage solo tank / solo heal compositions for content going forward and back to 2.x.

One tank or one healer means three or more of another type.

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Yeah this is what I gleamed from the LB changes.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

I *like* my on gcd stun. I can spam the crap out of a SIX SECOND STUN if I need to. ogcd stuns are shorter and tend to be used on cd for the damage component.

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I would like chain stunning more if bosses were susceptible to it. The only fights where this comes in handy is Ifrit HM and I think AS3 (or so I heard.)

For me at least, I would be less bothered by PLD's lower DPS if the trade-off was you could give the Stone Cold Salute to any boss mechanic.

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Originally Posted by SirPhoebos

I would like chain stunning more if bosses were susceptible to it. The only fights where this comes in handy is Ifrit HM and I think AS3 (or so I heard.)

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Don't forget the adds in Levi EX

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For me at least, I would be less bothered by PLD's lower DPS if the trade-off was you could give the Stone Cold Salute to any boss mechanic.

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Hopefully the change to shield swipe means that they plan to include more stunable/pacifiable actions in the future.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Thought DRG clipped midway in their normal rotation always? Or I'm remembering wrong in my half awake state.

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Drg clips terribly on disembowel and chaos thrust, with enough SS to get a gersko in at 23s and not drop botd, you are looking at clipping chaos thrust at around 6 or 7 seconds left using the optimal rotation.

Also pld tp problem is NOT just offtanking. Even if you spammed shield swipe for extra TP at a lower dps gain for the bulwark duration , you would still run out of tp far faster than any other class would