Seriously?

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

Lol, nerfing already easy dungeons, and yet people wonder why we don't get hard content often. Because of this crying. ... Much like aurum vale was back in 2.0, it can be quite hell on an undergeared AST before they got buffed.

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2.0? LOL How about 1.0?! 2.0 was a cakewalk compared to 1.0 AV AND Cutters Cry. Doing those dungeons were similar in skill level as the Coil runs. Even with a full FC run.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

The Vault comes to mind. I've had a couple of times it was impossible to clear it because the healer was, in short, not very skilled.

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That fight is just tough on healers I think. They have a hard time staying alive AND healing at the last boss battle. Theyre usually the first ones to die and its (seemingly) always to the chain link damage during the last phase.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

always to the chain link damage during the last phase.

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I have had to tell whoever I was chained to as a healer to move away from me or else I die then the tank dies....had one DPS try to blame me for wiping that fight when he was the !@#hole that was not moving away during the chains. the worst part was for some derp reason almost all of the times the chains happened it was me and that same DPS. had the tank and the other DPS tell him "listen either move away from whomever you are chained to when it happend or we vote dismiss you and I'm certain with your nasty attitude right now we would get the votes" strangely after that the lovely DPS moved away from me and we won the fight. what a headache >.<

You know, the Vault was one of those dungeons that was actually challenging and because of it it was not a snoozefest. I leveled TWO healing jobs there, there is no excuse for the nerf. Glad I leveled all the jobs I wanted before this happens lol. This is so bad indeed though.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Garuda storymode is a little too 1-shotty, to the point where it's (ironically) often considered harder to clear nowadays than the "hard" and "extreme" modes of the fight... so that trial getting a nerf is not surprising.

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Well yeah, you should get 1-shot if you fail to adhere to the mechanics. "hide behind a rock for minstrel shriek in the first phase and get behind Garuda for it in the last phase"; it's as simple as that.

I made a post similar to this in a previous thread, so I'm not going to completely repeat myself, but lack of adhering to mechanics is why so many players have such a hard time adjusting to fights like T9 even at 60 because they think that higher gear=ignoring mechanics, and then ask for nerfs because they can't faceroll it. If more fights in this game were like Garuda story, or the Coincounter in AV (which is getting nerfed as well), then some players wouldn't have such a hard time adjusting to fights were mechanics actually matter.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

You know, the Vault was one of those dungeons that was actually challenging and because of it it was not a snoozefest.

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Problem is we have far too many players who don't care if it is a snoozefest or not. will do things that cause wipes then try to blame everyone else for it.
this is why we can't have nice things.

really hoping we see less of the lazy and egotistical in the exploritory missions

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Originally Posted by ArcyEvil

When SE only nerf content in game coz of bad players, it does nothing more but create even more bad players. I wonder sometimes if Yoshi is blind or just pretending to see nothing....

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I honestly think he believes in two player bases. One group he probably thinks are functionally retarded and need to be able to clear content with one button.

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Originally Posted by MaxDetroit

I'm fine with that, if they do not change extreme trials and expert dungeons.
And I would be even more fine with that if the new expert dungeons would be really challenging and require some expert knowledge and are not again easy mode dungeons like the rest.

In short, low level trials and dungoens for leveling do not need to be as hard, indeed. But please keep the end game content challenging and exciting.

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Leveling dungeons aren't hard now. They aren't even medium. They are easy and are being nerfed to very easy (or at least heavily implied by the notes).

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Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

I honestly think he believes in two player bases. One group he probably thinks are functionally retarded and need to be able to clear content with one button.

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And then this same group finishes the MSQ, goes to try EX primals and Alex Savage, and suddenly there's a giant skill barrier in front of them.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

You know, the Vault was one of those dungeons that was actually challenging and because of it it was not a snoozefest. I leveled TWO healing jobs there, there is no excuse for the nerf. Glad I leveled all the jobs I wanted before this happens lol. This is so bad indeed though.

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I think Vault is suffering from the CT effect. When I leveled SCH back near HW's launch, I had no trouble with Vault because the other people knew what they were doing. Now that I'm trying to level AST, the 2nd and last bosses are disastrous because people are clueless. It seems like the players coming through this late into launch are just awful and not very bright.

I'm all for more challenging dungeons, but let's be realistic, if your group doesn't know what they're doing, you can pull more than your share of the weight and get nothing just because of that. Challenging Vault was fun while it lasted but now it's just cringeworthy with how terrible people are pretty often.

Hopefully the next 2 dungeons won't be a snoozefest (hopefully not just annoying like Neverreap too), the cycle of good players early on and bad players coming through late will likely repeat again.

No wonder why people don't "git gud" I just don't understand it never had any problems with these trials/dungeons even in early access rarely wipes

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

That may have something to do with the fact that the position of you + the rocks has absolutely no bearing on Aerial Blast damage. Only thing that matters is how many rocks are left standing.

Hiding behind the rocks does nothing.

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What I meant is that they're not grouped up well for the aoe heal that the healer casts (if they even have the MP for it). Of the last 10 Garuda NMs I've done while leveling a DPS or a tank, half of them had one or two of the 4 people not get the aoe heal that Friction just nearly kills them. Healer tries to heal while not taking care to see that Mistral Song is up and Garuda just blasts the healer to death.

This is one of my biggest annoyances with how they're dealing with the game. They add all these daily things, and instead of focusing on making them an enjoyble experience, they're doing everything in their power to make them mind-numbingly easy so that everyone can clear them with little effort to prevent "stress". So instead of dungeons being a fun and rewarding experience where you can test your skill, it becomes just another mindless chore you have to endure to get X gear. Considering this is the main focus on the game, that most of us spend a majority of our time on, they should be more careful when making these decisions.

I understand that there's a problem with people abandoning "harder" duties, but there are other ways of handling this. Like giving rewards proportionate to the difficulty of the dungeon for instance.

I also wish they wouldn't make the easiest way to get tomes incredibly face roll easy. (Expert Rolutte) Why not put more tomes in Ex Primals? Prevent it from being 'farmed' but give 1/x day bonus +50 eso tomes. Might get some more rav parties in PF that way.

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Originally Posted by TiaHariberux3

No wonder why people don't "git gud" I just don't understand it never had any problems with these trials/dungeons even in early access rarely wipes

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Yep. There is no need to improve according to them, they can just herp derp their way through stuff and expect others to carry them. This is exactly why I refuse to play with randoms in DF and ONLY bring people I know. I am not going to help SE keep subs with bads by carrying them, nor will my friends. I'd rather wait for my friends to do stuff then play this carry people DF thing SE tries to enforce.

The funny thing is I don't even actually see people being awful on a regular basis. Sure once or twice and a lot of sub-optimal play but not something that would lead to party failure.

Blizzard blizzard blizzard "Dungeon Defeated"
Blizzard blizzard blizzard "Trial Defeated"
Blizzard Blizzard blizzard "Savage undefeated"

"wtf?!?!?"

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Because making the game stupidly easy all the way to max level with absolutely no difficulty curve doesn't teach anyone anything and they waltz into max level dungeons with absolutely no idea how to play.

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It's not the game's job to teach players how to play any more than past the basics.

It's the community's job.

The last boss of the Vault can be hard if people can't dodge and expect the healer to carry their ass.

The Aery is a nightmare cause of sable price when I tank someone always freaking dies right before the adds that spawn and then dps points fingers at each other after we wipe then someone leaves bam the healer leaves next -_-

The vault as a healer is just a bit traumatizing lol

Second boss is a bih especially when the dps stand in portals or worse the tank is in portals...

Last boss not hard just annoying as heck.

Bis/rav......-_- I will just not even speak on this foolishness that I always quit as soon as it pops in a roulette lol

Morale of the story Difficulty only references the ppl you are doing the dung or trial with...

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

It's not the game's job to teach players how to play any more than past the basics.

It's the community's job.

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So who's going to teach us how to do 3.1 content? It is no ones job to teach players anything. It's the player who wants/needs help's (don't care if grammar is wrong here) job to make the effort to better themselves. Not someone who is experienced to snap and then tell them what they should be doing.

If a player chooses not to read the tool tips for their job or figure out how mechanics work after the first wipe, then there is a very high chance that same player will not listen to any given advice the community may give them, if anyone were to try.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

I'm not a bad player, but the vault final boss does need some adjustments. This fight is a bit random on where/who he targets his ground aoe and it can make it hard/impossible to dodge the knights.

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Just run north/south. :P

I must say I was lucky with leveling my bard (still have to run few libraries) and didn't get really much wipes... but I agree lot of times dps forget about the sable price in the aery, or don't know where to run in the vault (I am still psychologically preparing to try heal vault; as I am an average healer). I have no problems dodging in the vault. When you run it several times there is a patern; I start failing those when I am tired and run it to many times, which means I am taking a break from it.

But I noticed lot of times when there is a wipe is because the mechanics aren't followed or simply ignored.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

It's not the game's job to teach players how to play any more than past the basics.

It's the community's job.

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No. I'm sorry. This "it takes a village" mentality is just a cheese tactic to try to shift blame off of a bad player and on to basically everyone they've ever come into contact with. It's not anyone's job to go out of their way to teach other people how to (insert class here). That's not to say that veteran players shouldn't try to help - I for one am more than willing to give advice for classes and encounters I have an understanding of - but seriously at some point we have to hold the player themselves accountable for bad play. You can get so much information on how a class works simply by reading the tooltips on your skills, yet so many people (and it's obvious which ones) don't do it. There are many people in the community that go above and beyond, taking huge chunks of time out of their lives to make instructional videos for everything from rotations to raids and put them out there for everyone to see and benefit from. It's not their job; they do it because they figured something out and want to help others do the same. If a player isn't willing to go out and do 10 minutes' worth of footwork on Google to find a rotation for their class or a strategy for the raid they want to clear, that's 100% on them. The information is out there if people only take the time to go look for it instead of insisting on "playing how they want."

I consider myself a pretty skilled player but I don't give a shit if they nerf leveling dungeons. "Making them harder", as people are clamoring for in this thread, would just mean that the players capable of doing them would drop them as soon as they got them in roulette, and the players incapable of finding a group to clear them would just use FATEs to level instead.

I guess what I'm asking is, why do people think harder leveling dungeons, of all things, would actually force the playerbase to "git gud"? Half your rotations from 50-59 aren't even complete or correct anyway; I cleared up to AS3 as SMN and even then I admit that I didn't bother reading or practicing a proper rotation until 60.

I guess I just don't see what the fuss is, and I say this as a player that's carried plenty of "bads" in my lifetime and is generally in favor of things like public parsers.

I'm just glad they added exp to the old 50 dungeons.... the more content available for levelling without doing the same handful over and over is a godsend. Such a huge wad of content was going begging.

I'm a 60 AST and have seen "bad players" but um, if you passed 60, and you are just grinding your other jobs or whatever. Why do you care? Stop whining yourselves. Its a game and bad players get punished through kicking, if they nerf it they nerf it. Its not going to ruin the game for you is it? Cause if it does you need to chill out. You are just as bad as them for whining, why not teach players since you all are apparently so avid to complain, or maybe you don't have the time, you need to whine about 7 other things. Just teach people, or be MLG pro somewhere else. You can express your opinion of course, but you can also use your time to help players, I run low level dungeons and such to help players who are learning, just so when they do hit the HW content they won't kill me.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

snip.

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Oh this MMO you're playing, its a solo game so you can go and be awesome as heck with your powerful pro skillz of doom, don't worry you got this brah.

Its hard to learn, it is, I was a shitty bard, I know it, but I got fired up and learned. In the end, it took experienced players to help me learn, now I'm focusing on my alt to make her a NIN/MNK for fun, I know how hard its going to be for me, but its the fun of game, I enjoy it enough to take this risk and all the people saying "git gud" normally need a reality check, you had to learn too, and some people learn differently. You can't seriously hate them that much, sometimes there is no excuse, but other times, you just take it with a grain of salt, and help others. Stop whining, and just lend a hand, if they don't take your advice, then oh well you tried, and maybe you thought someone else something useful.

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Originally Posted by Yunona

I'm a 60 AST and have seen "bad players" but um, if you passed 60, and you are just grinding your other jobs or whatever. Why do you care?

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I'm just asking to have fun while playing a game, is that too much?

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

I'm just asking to have fun while playing a game, is that too much?

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Then have fun, its not about the other players being good or bad, it might suck sometimes, but I still have fun, its a game for a reason, don't blame others for not having fun, I think new players exist even at 60.. surprisingly but I still wish to help them,

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Originally Posted by Yunona

Then have fun, its not about the other players being good or bad, it might suck sometimes, but I still have fun, its a game for a reason, don't blame others for not having fun, I think new players exist even at 60.. surprisingly but I still wish to help them,

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I'm not blaming the player, I'm talking about nerfing the dungeons. Fighting a moving striking dummy is not really my kind of 'fun'.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

I'm not blaming the player, I'm talking about nerfing the dungeons. Fighting a moving striking dummy is not really my kind of 'fun'.

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Its not fun, you're right, but with this, we can expect later dungeons, to be better. Players will learn, and honestly I bet this nerf will be very slight, and we will all get that feeling of excitement just as we did before.

Making early content easier absolutely annihilates any sort of difficulty curve, it becomes a step instead,so when these players hit 60 and go onto the next 'step' like alex normal they absolutely fail they haven't had to deal with anything they cant get through by just facerolling on the keyboard, take the next step to extremes and savage and even more players fail with these. People still fail on faust with item level 210 gear because they haven't been forced to even learn a rotation before that. They've just cruised through on whatever they felt like doing because content is mind numbingly easy until you get to Savage and even then it's not really 'savage' till you hit A3S.

It's the same argument I have as putting parsers in the game, give the players the tools and means in game to improve, we're not asking them to learn perfect openers or pull 1.3k DPS, jsut forcing them to learn basic rotations and mechanics that appear throughout the game. Dungeons should have SOME difficulty in them and some sort of scaling that they can't go into a Aurum Vale with ilvl 20 gear and mind accessories on a DPS and still get through the damn thing by spamming one skill.

I'm all for, 'let people play how they want to play' but NOT at the expense of the rest of the group. It's an MMO you are meant to work together, which means pulling your own weight on your class. Making 90% of the game lick your screen easy just encourages people to continue with bad game knowledge or incorrect rotations.

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Originally Posted by Yunona

Its not fun, you're right, but with this, we can expect later dungeons, to be better. Players will learn, and honestly I bet this nerf will be very slight, and we will all get that feeling of excitement just as we did before.

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What incentive do players have to learn, if everything they come across is faceroll easy?

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Originally Posted by Yunona

Its not fun, you're right, but with this, we can expect later dungeons, to be better. Players will learn, and honestly I bet this nerf will be very slight, and we will all get that feeling of excitement just as we did before.

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Not really. We can expect later dungeons to also be nerfed, actually. That's been the trend so far: people complain, they nerf, repeat.

And if a 50+ player hasn't learnt the basics that you need to be decent at HW dungeons, no amount of dungeons will teach them. I mean, they HAD to go through whole 50 levels. But that's another matter entirely, on my opinion. If the game keeps dumbing itself so the player doesn't have to learn anything, why and when would he learn at all?

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

What incentive do players have to learn, if everything they come across is faceroll easy?

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Go faceroll into your keyboard more in this forum, geez don't be such a jerk to players, teach them if you care so much. INCENTIVE- You do a nice things, a good deed, and thats it.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

Not really. We can expect later dungeons to also be nerfed, actually. That's been the trend so far: people complain, they nerf, repeat.

And if a 50+ player hasn't learnt the basics that you need to be decent at HW dungeons, no amount of dungeons will teach them. I mean, they HAD to go through whole 50 levels. But that's another matter entirely, on my opinion. If the game keeps dumbing itself so the player doesn't have to learn anything, why and when would he learn at all?

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I understand, I don't like easy stuff too much, right now on my alt, I get bored, I played WOW and so did my friend, we dislike the boring easy dungeons, but I won't go blame every player in the world, in fact, I bet a lot of people in this thread would meet in game and say the other sucked. Thats the issue,

I suppose they have data from all dungeons and trials, and if a few of them have a rate of vote abandon or failure much higher than the rest, they make adjustments.

Our individual experiences are very very few compared to having all data from all players.

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Originally Posted by Yunona

I understand, I don't like easy stuff too much, right now on my alt, I get bored, I played WOW and so did my friend, we dislike the boring easy dungeons, but I won't go blame every player in the world, in fact, I bet a lot of people in this thread would meet in game and say the other sucked. Thats the issue,

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I'm not blaming anyone for it. If anything, I'd blame this game's desing choices. And that's precisely what bothers me. Nerfing instead of making a proper learning curve.