Stats And You!

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Whoa! This is such an unexpected info! o_o But then we still have the question...so what does it do?

If attack power adds attack power and STR adds...attack power (like was said by triary), then what's the difference? In the end, is it like FFXI? STR increasing damage window cap and Attack power increasing damage output?

The info is still confusing...

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It's likely that str adjusts your damage curve, while attack power is the potential range on that curve.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

In regards to the questions of "how much STR do I need to increase my attack?" and "Well, in FFXI this is how it worked!" type of comments; FINAL FANTASY XIV works entirely differently and doesn't use the same system where (for example) 2STR = 1 attack. STR+ X is used to calculate your damage output so you won't see a change in other parameters by simply adding on more STR.

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Well hopefully in 1.20 we will see them when getting said stats together and actually see a physical change in attack power in the attributes page. Also maybe a post that better explains how this work so we aren't left in the dark.

We know what control does (lessens sparking and instability) and craftsmanship advances the progress bar, but what magic craftsmanship does is beyond me. Everything I hear/ read seems to be speculation so yes clarification would be really nice, especially since so much of the newer gear has more Mag. Craft than Craft. Increased HQ chance? Increased Crit chance?

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

How could they possibly see all this stuff...unless...omg. Bayohne, the posts are coming from inside the house!!!

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Just had to say this made me lol irl. Good refrence lmao

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Originally Posted by Radiator

We know what control does (lessens sparking and instability) and craftsmanship advances the progress bar, but what magic craftsmanship does is beyond me. Everything I hear/ read seems to be speculation so yes clarification would be really nice, especially since so much of the newer gear has more Mag. Craft than Craft. Increased HQ chance? Increased Crit chance?

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Supposedly various recipes are based on either craftsmanship or magic craftsmanship. Which are which is a mystery. Or, at least that's what I read.

OK, so there's no direct correlation between STR and Attack Power.. but what is the difference? What benefit does STR give that Attack Power doesn't?

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Originally Posted by Deus

To OP, thanks for doing your tests, the results were compelling. Please update the main post to reflect that (at least for R50) higher tier stats increase by 1.0 due to a 4.0 increase in the corresponding core stat. Please see my test thread and/or blog for details:

[dev1144] Effect of Core Stats on Skills Explained. Devs, We Need Answers Please

Deus Diabolus' Blog

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Had actually already added that in (about at the same time you posted funnily enough); it's asterisked just before the recap (just now made it easier to see). Going to try and find some gear for my 30THM that offers a +4 or possibly 4 +1 pieces to INT, PIE or MND to see if it is in fact +4 for every 1 no matter the level or perhaps starting after a certain point. I can confirm like you that at 50 +4 adds 1. I have another theory I'm working out but I'll wait to post anything on that for now, until I've tested it.

Thanks for the research and links, I'll add them to OP for further reading!

Edit1: As for the information regarding STR and Attack Power, I think there may be a slight misunderstanding between the phrasing of Attack Power stat and your actual attack.

My personal thought is that adding STR will not raise the Attack Power stat. The equation likely is based on the target's VIT. Maybe adding STR to surpass the targets VIT will increase your minimum damage and Attack Power will increase your damage further after reaching that. Just a theory, will need some actual testing (feel free to test anyone, I may not be able to get to it right away). It would also make sense in regard to the reports coming in that adding STR outparses adding Attack Power. The closer you get to the targets VIT the more damage you'd do, once surpased it would likely plateau in which case adding attack power would be beneficial.

Edit2: As for crafting, my theory is that tools that use STR/VIT/DEX use Craftsmanship to determine success rate and tools that use INT/MND/PIE use Magic Craftmanship to determine success rate. It's just a theory based on an educated guess with gear and optimal/required classes in relation to their tools but a dev response or even hint would be great.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

In regards to the questions of "how much STR do I need to increase my attack?" and "Well, in FFXI this is how it worked!" type of comments; FINAL FANTASY XIV works entirely differently and doesn't use the same system where (for example) 2STR = 1 attack. STR+ X is used to calculate your damage output so you won't see a change in other parameters by simply adding on more STR.

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So if I understand this correctly, you're telling us that STR is directly used in the damage calculations, rather than boosting some other stat that is used in turn.

Do I understand that right?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

So if I understand this correctly, you're telling us that STR is directly used in the damage calculations, rather than boosting some other stat that is used in turn.

Do I understand that right?

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That's how I understand it as well. Just edited my post above, was that how you were thinking as well?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

So if I understand this correctly, you're telling us that STR is directly used in the damage calculations, rather than boosting some other stat that is used in turn.

Do I understand that right?

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There are two ways to interpret Bayohne's post.

1) The damage formula is like this: Damage Dealt = STR + [rest unknown]. If this is the case, each point of STR adds a flat 1 point of damage.

2) The other (and I consider this more likely) possibility is that he was simply trying to explain that STR is not related to ATK the way it was in FFXI (2 STR would, in addition to its own effect, add 1 ATK). In this case we are no closer to understanding the damage formula and we should merely stop trying to spot changes in ATK when we add STR.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

In regards to the questions of "how much STR do I need to increase my attack?" and "Well, in FFXI this is how it worked!" type of comments; FINAL FANTASY XIV works entirely differently and doesn't use the same system where (for example) 2STR = 1 attack. STR+ X is used to calculate your damage output so you won't see a change in other parameters by simply adding on more STR.

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Are you guys going to make us parse huge sample sizes to figure out what does exactly what again or are you going to tell us exactly? This is kinda getting ridiculous, we need more info than some vague 3 word description. Also, do wses have modifiers such as Str20% Vit20% etc, and if they do will you please include it somewhere on the Lodestone or in-game?

This is info we want/need to know.

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Originally Posted by Fusionx

OK, so there's no direct correlation between STR and Attack Power.. but what is the difference? What benefit does STR give that Attack Power doesn't?

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Well STR effects other things other than battle classes. Gathering and Crafting. Attack Power doesn't really effect those kinds of classes so maybe there isn't a further difference than that?

Going to take what I said on another forum.

STR is a support for ATKP in the same way VIT is support for DEF.

ATK_STR/VIT|DEF

Let me put it like this. Let's visualize this without a bunch of numbers. VIT acts as a wall. STR is a latter. Your STR needs to extend against or over that VIT wall for Attack to get to the other side and combat mob's defense effectively.

So, in terms of Mobs that have these high amounts of VIT, it becomes more about STR to push that attack through into a higher DMG threshold. On other mobs where you hit STR softcap on, it's more ATK dependent to hit consistently higher. This is the reason why STR builds out parse ATK focused builds on Ifrit or any other high level / High VIT mobs.

To rephrase... "if STR > Target VIT, +DMG", if "STR < Target VIT, -DMG".

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Going to take what I said on another forum.

STR is a support for ATKP in the same way VIT is support for DEF.

ATK_STR/VIT|DEF

Let me put it like this. Let's visualize this without a bunch of numbers. VIT acts as a wall. STR is a latter. Your STR needs to extend against or over that VIT wall for Attack to get to the other side and combat mob's defense effectively.

So, in terms of Mobs that have these high amounts of VIT, it becomes more about STR to push that attack through into a higher DMG threshold. On other mobs where you hit STR softcap on, it's more ATK dependent to hit consistently higher. This is the reason why STR builds out parse ATK focused builds on Ifrit or any other high level / High VIT mobs.

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And you know this because...? Yeah, I didn't think so.

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Originally Posted by Frein

And you know this because...? Yeah, I didn't think so.

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It is, however, a popular theory.

People are testing and we'll get some stat results soon enough to cross-check

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Originally Posted by Frein

And you know this because...? Yeah, I didn't think so.

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I know this because I've tested it. Testing on Mobs of equal level and STR vs ATK builds on Ifrit. I am still gathering information as well, but this is how it works and what the data is showing. If you don't believe me, why don't you go out there and test it yourself?

I suggest this for everyone to do. This isn't a difficult thing to figure out. It can even be eye balled and I find it surprising that people just sit around on their butts waiting for people to figure crap out for them and when they come here to kindly give you the correct information you debunk it. As if you are out there doing the testing and arn't a loser of a player.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

I know this because I've tested it. Testing on Mobs of equal level and STR vs ATK builds on Ifrit. I am still gathering information as well, but this is how it works and what the data is showing. If you don't believe me, why don't you go out there and test it yourself?

I suggest this for everyone to do. This isn't a difficult thing to figure out. It can even be eye balled and I find it surprising that people just sit around on their butts waiting for people to figure crap out for them and when they come here to kindly give you the correct information you debunk it. As if you are out there doing the testing and arn't a loser of a player.

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Your tests prove nothing (other than that STR apparently outperforms ATK on Ifrit). You only assume your findings mean what you're proposing, but you could be completely off. You don't know what the damage formula looks like and you don't know the stats of the enemies you've fought, so it's a nice hypothesis, but by no means proven.

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Originally Posted by Frein

Your tests prove nothing (other than that STR apparently outperforms ATK on Ifrit). You only assume your findings mean what you're proposing, but you could be completely off. You don't know what the damage formula looks like and you don't know the stats of the enemies you've fought, so it's a nice hypothesis, but by no means proven.

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I have the data and when it's complete I'll share it. I was trying to get a rough explanation out before finalizing. Also, it is simple to find out the VIT of the mob when your STR starts to do little to no effect against it. You can do this by slowly lowering it til you see diminishing results.

This is simple stuff. You don't need to wait for developer confirmation when you have the capacity to test it yourself. It is incredibly surprising to me how they are not able to explain their own workings of STR and Attack Power, but the community can.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

This is simple stuff. You don't need to wait for developer confirmation when you have the capacity to test it yourself. It is incredibly surprising to me how they are not able to explain their own workings of STR and Attack Power, but the community can.

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While I GREATLY respect you for going out there and testing yourself (you are right that laziness is a factor), you need to understand that eyeballing effects and proving your conclusions to the community differ by a huge amount of effort, time, and complexity. You can make theories all day long but without data to back it up, it will always be useless. It will take hours and need to conform to thorough and rigorous precision and empirical process, or it will not be accepted. I have defined a lot of these guidelines here:
Section III: Empirical Testing Guidelines

We never got official answers on the damage formula for FFXI. Even 10 years later we STILL do not have a good understanding. Players of this game even now with this hardcore base are unable to understand FFXIV's stats system. With new players, especially this generation of competitive MMOs, they are not going to accept FFXIV's obscure stat system or attempt Forbidden materia craft. If Square Enix wants players to go the extra 10 miles exploring forbidden materia craft and contributing to the game's economy, they need to define the incentive to do so. Otherwise it will just be endless forum bickering over who is right and who is wrong with regards to weights in the damage formula, and people will continue to waste their time and money investing in their gear. Everybody loses. So devs, please work on getting a formula out there so we can get a better understanding how to compare all these parameters.

Maybe your experience of XI has been different than mine, but what I got out of it was to never trust anything SE says about their own mechanics at face value. Player testing is ultimately more accurate than anything SE is usually willing to give out. Anything the devs hand the players of XIV is a gift that still ultimately has to be verified anyways.

Also, regarding the idea that people in XI didn't have a good understanding of the damage formula, I would disagree. While it was never completely flushed out down to decimals and rounding error, it was pretty close. I remember participating in a number of theoretical arguments regarding builds that could be conducted completely with math based on community derived formulas. The melee damage formula for XI is clearly spelled out on the BG wiki as well.

The game is still in its infancy and rapidly changing. To expect a full understanding 3 weeks after a major patch is unreasonable in my opinion. This comes down to community driven research. When the game's population ideally rises to a more acceptable level, maybe enough players interested in exploring the formulas will come together and collectively put in the work necessary to figure it out sufficiently. For now, while you may not like the limited information being provided by both devs and players, that may be all the community will have access to for awhile. Considering the game's mechanics are likely to change at least once more in the near future, I think it's reasonable to accept this.

I do think that to some extent it's somewhat pointless for people to be trying to figure out formulas for algorithms that are likely still being tweaked and adjusted and may possibly undergo further revisions.

However, I think that with the addition of the materia system, where a significant amount of stat customization gets placed into the player's hands, SE is somewhat obligated to give us more information in the future as to what each stat does and why we would prefer one stat over another in a given situation.

High level materia is a large investment for a player, if the game is going to provide separate materia for say STR and ATK, then it's forcing the player to decide which will be better. If the player's goal is to increase their damage then they should at least have a small sense of how these variables will affect their damage differently so that they can make a correct choice.

SE can let the hardcores figure out the exact formulas and algorithms for themselves, but I think they owe it the general population to give them a general sense of how these stats differ from one another so that they have a guideline for making sound decisions and not have to waste time and resources making blind assumptions that may not be optimal for them.

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Originally Posted by Deus

While I GREATLY respect you for going out there and testing yourself (you are right that laziness is a factor), you need to understand that eyeballing effects and proving your conclusions to the community differ by a huge amount of effort, time, and complexity. You can make theories all day long but without data to back it up, it will always be useless. It will take hours and need to conform to thorough and rigorous precision and empirical process, or it will not be accepted. I have defined a lot of these guidelines here:
Section III: Empirical Testing Guidelines

We never got official answers on the damage formula for FFXI. Even 10 years later we STILL do not have a good understanding. Players of this game even now with this hardcore base are unable to understand FFXIV's stats system. With new players, especially this generation of competitive MMOs, they are not going to accept FFXIV's obscure stat system or attempt Forbidden materia craft. If Square Enix wants players to go the extra 10 miles exploring forbidden materia craft and contributing to the game's economy, they need to define the incentive to do so. Otherwise it will just be endless forum bickering over who is right and who is wrong with regards to weights in the damage formula, and people will continue to waste their time and money investing in their gear. Everybody loses. So devs, please work on getting a formula out there so we can get a better understanding how to compare all these parameters.

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This is not my intention to say anyone in the community is wrong in this. I'm a little more testy when someone who more than likely will sit on their ass the whole time and not contribute to testing chimes in when they don't even have a place to do so.

Testing gets difficult for me in some ways because I get incredibly overwhelmed when I just deal with numbers. Which is kind of silly for a person who is dealing with something such as damage formulas. However, in my disability I've learned to take them [the numbers] and make visual objects of what I'm looking at in either scale or order and try to make sense of them in really odd ways. If that makes any sense to you, I don't know, but that's why I take so long. So, I actually get a lot of help mathematically through a friend of mine. In the past, I have been wrong here and there in my theories, but I have a strong feeling this is how it works.

I think maybe putting my theory out there for another to read and be curious about and test is a good thing. I certainly am not here to first anything. I'd just like people who are interested in how these stats work to be on track and know the proper times to use STR and the proper times to use ATK. If someone can beat me to it, that would be magnificent. Case closed and everyone is happy.

brucey, make an account on guildwork and PM me "tachi" or search my character tachikomas. I have a working parser for helping track your data. Would make your life a million times easier when collecting data. does breakdowns for floor/ceiling of normal/crit's and seperates out ws's. same for healing/enfeeble etc.

Also for myself I find in all cases that STR > ATK power even vs lower lvl mobs anything even match or higher and STR is more effective it is something like 3AP => +1dmg and +2STR => +1dmg

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

it is something like 3AP => +1dmg and +2STR => +1dmg

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That corresponds with how Attack Power materia maxes out at +30 and Strength materia maxes out at +20

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

brucey, make an account on guildwork and PM me "tachi" or search my character tachikomas. I have a working parser for helping track your data. Would make your life a million times easier when collecting data. does breakdowns for floor/ceiling of normal/crit's and seperates out ws's. same for healing/enfeeble etc.

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If there's a reliable script that will convert the log files on disk into a legible format I'd love to see it. I've noticed those files are unreliable and do not always capture the logs, with giant time gaps, and the data appears to be dumped to disk at large intervals rather than real time. I refuse to use the mouse and copy paste every 5 minutes. Crabby was great while it lasted.

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

The game is still in its infancy and rapidly changing. To expect a full understanding 3 weeks after a major patch is unreasonable in my opinion. This comes down to community driven research. When the game's population ideally rises to a more acceptable level, maybe enough players interested in exploring the formulas will come together and collectively put in the work necessary to figure it out sufficiently. For now, while you may not like the limited information being provided by both devs and players, that may be all the community will have access to for awhile. Considering the game's mechanics are likely to change at least once more in the near future, I think it's reasonable to accept this.

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A valid standpoint, however, SE's philosophy has changed to survive this new generation, as has the entire MMO landscape and fanbase since FFXI.

Of course we will be patient for the Devs to come forward at the most responsible time. It's true the game is not yet finished, but the purpose of this forum is for the community to give their opinion on what we need from the Devs. We play the game every day and know best the impact these changes are making. I feel now is the best time to present this argument to the Dev team so they do not make the mistake of keeping us in the dark and failing to keep up with this generation as they have in the past.

It's true that parsing and community validation will always be necessary regardless of what Square tells us. But for this game to be accessible to everyone we need a better understanding of the game's parameters; an official one.

I feel that Yoshi identifies with this philosophy and this statement he made last March strikes at the heart of the matter.

FFXIVCore Exclusive Naoki Yoshida Interview - FFXIVCore.com - Final Fantasy XIV Fansite

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On the topic of monster attribute changes and possibly player attribute changes, can you go more into detail on this? A lot of players feel everything is still a bit out of whack when it comes to the current attributes like dex barely affecting Accuracy or Shell barely reducing an Imps Blizzard damage.

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One of the reasons that you have some of the things not affecting something at all--like Shell not working on a lot of spells--is because right now a lot of the calculations for that stuff is too complex. Because it's so complex, it's difficult to balance. They want to make it simpler, not just so the players know what's going on--having to have some super program going on in the background to understand the calculations--but also so when the devs do balancing, it's easier for them to balance.

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Now I would love to see a delivery on this philosophy.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

This is not my intention to say anyone in the community is wrong in this. I'm a little more testy when someone who more than likely will sit on their ass the whole time and not contribute to testing chimes in when they don't even have a place to do so.

Testing gets difficult for me in some ways because I get incredibly overwhelmed when I just deal with numbers. Which is kind of silly for a person who is dealing with something such as damage formulas. However, in my disability I've learned to take them [the numbers] and make visual objects of what I'm looking at in either scale or order and try to make sense of them in really odd ways. If that makes any sense to you, I don't know, but that's why I take so long. So, I actually get a lot of help mathematically through a friend of mine. In the past, I have been wrong here and there in my theories, but I have a strong feeling this is how it works.

I think maybe putting my theory out there for another to read and be curious about and test is a good thing. I certainly am not here to first anything. I'd just like people who are interested in how these stats work to be on track and know the proper times to use STR and the proper times to use ATK. If someone can beat me to it, that would be magnificent. Case closed and everyone is happy.

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It seems like you do realize what you got yourself into (I know I didn't at first lol). In no way did I mean to discourage you from testing, rather I hope to save people from wasting effort by being up front with what the community would look for to accept test data in general. Of course we will look at what you have and make the most of it constructively. It really is a high bar to meet. The intensity of my message was directed more towards the Dev team, that they spare us from having to spend months of our personal time breaking down the algorithms. Say Matsui, got the funds to hire a W2 contractor?

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

brucey, make an account on guildwork and PM me "tachi" or search my character tachikomas. I have a working parser for helping track your data. Would make your life a million times easier when collecting data. does breakdowns for floor/ceiling of normal/crit's and seperates out ws's. same for healing/enfeeble etc.

Also for myself I find in all cases that STR > ATK power even vs lower lvl mobs anything even match or higher and STR is more effective it is something like 3AP => +1dmg and +2STR => +1dmg

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I use a working parser actually that was sent to me from a friend. After like 70+ kills on ifrit my LS is taking a break before going in again. So I have to wait another day to get a good 10 runs of Attack Power centered gear data.

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Originally Posted by Deus

It seems like you do realize what you got yourself into (I know I didn't at first lol). In no way did I mean to discourage you from testing, rather I hope to save people from wasting effort by being up front with what the community would look for to accept test data in general. Of course we will look at what you have and make the most of it constructively. It really is a high bar to meet. The intensity of my message was directed more towards the Dev team, that they spare us from having to spend months of our personal time breaking down the algorithms. Say Matsui, got the funds to hire a W2 contractor?

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I understood what you were saying and I didn't take it in a disrespectful way. When I catch something, I get excited and share it before finishing it completely. However, like I said, I see this as also a group effort. So, if I can share it and get others involved that means it can be confirmed faster or debunked faster.

Just to throw something in the pot. Help or not help.

Can anyone explain why people hit crap for damage on basic attacks on Ifrit, but Doomspike II or other powerful WS's can hit 300-400 at base, and about 600-700 with buffs?

I've submitted my thread below regarding the exposition of parameters to the Live Broadcast Nov 3 Questions Thread. I'm hoping Yoshi will address this problem and let us know his policy and what we can expect. This issue is core to a majority of what changed in 1.19 and will affect all content yet to come.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...317#post415317

I posted this in a cure thread but I want to put it here as well for a wider audience/potential tinkerers:

Well I've been working with the numbers and have the following two equations worked out:


(3*MND+VIT+(3(Healing/2.75))/2) + ((MND/2)+(Healing/3)/2) = Cure Average

if Healing magic is 413, MND is 289 and VIT is 181.

(3*MND+VIT+(3(Healing/2.75))/2) + ((MND/2)+(Healing/2)/2) = Cure Average

if Healing magic is 420, MND is 271 and VIT is 181.

If Healing magic is 403, MND is 251 and VIT is 174 however, the first equation comes extremely close but is a smaller number than the average by 40. However this test was done with the PGL ability that gives 10% bonus, I had to manually take off 10% from the cure (friend self cast on himself, didn't want to ask him to redo it). By description of the ability its 10% received but by practice I'm reading it's 10% given, perhaps that could be clashing with results as well.

However when I did a naked cast with healing 398, MND 231 and VIT 181 my average was off by 130ish, lower than my observed average. This leads me to believe that either I'm missing something in either/both equation, have them entirely wrong or have them correct but that there are multiple equations, one for each tier of 10 healing magic. If someone wants to use these equations I've worked out and tinker with them by all means do so, I'm no mathematician but if I can help one out I'm happy to do so! :)

I seriously doubt there would be a different equation for each tier of 10 healing magic...

Also, you don't seem to be controlling your variables you should really only work with one variable changing at a time so that you can study it's behavior more appropriately.

Another thing is that your equations call a variable of the same degree multiple times. This is basically over complicating your equation making it more cumbersome to work with.

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Originally Posted by Carpe

I seriously doubt there would be a different equation for each tier of 10 healing magic...

Also, you don't seem to be controlling your variables you should really only work with one variable changing at a time so that you can study it's behavior more appropriately.

Another thing is that your equations call a variable of the same degree multiple times. This is basically over complicating your equation making it more cumbersome to work with.

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I doubt it too but they've done similar things in the past with multiple equations based on the amount of skill you were at. They've already stated that the current coding is far too complex than it needs to be so I wouldn't rule ANY possibility out, no matter the nightmare working with the equation would be.

For controlling variables, it's extremely hard to do as MND is a direct influence on Healing Magic. I personally don't have the kind of gil to invest in making an ideal test build (would cost several million at current materia prices on my server). Like I said, I'm no mathematician but just wanted to have at least something for someone more qualified to see and go from there. Maybe they hadn't thought about taking half of the sum of both MND and Healing Magic and seeing that could spur a different idea altogether.

All I did was find an equation that worked for one, saw it worked very closely for another and realized that there is either a rate of growth involved, a constant and/or a different number used against Healing Magic (was the only thing that changed anything) per a different tier of skill. Obviously it's most likely the first two but as I said before, SE has been known to use multiple equations for the same thing. Just look at Summoning Magic in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Deus

While I GREATLY respect you for going out there and testing yourself (you are right that laziness is a factor), you need to understand that eyeballing effects and proving your conclusions to the community differ by a huge amount of effort, time, and complexity. You can make theories all day long but without data to back it up, it will always be useless. It will take hours and need to conform to thorough and rigorous precision and empirical process, or it will not be accepted. I have defined a lot of these guidelines here:
Section III: Empirical Testing Guidelines

We never got official answers on the damage formula for FFXI. Even 10 years later we STILL do not have a good understanding. Players of this game even now with this hardcore base are unable to understand FFXIV's stats system. With new players, especially this generation of competitive MMOs, they are not going to accept FFXIV's obscure stat system or attempt Forbidden materia craft. If Square Enix wants players to go the extra 10 miles exploring forbidden materia craft and contributing to the game's economy, they need to define the incentive to do so. Otherwise it will just be endless forum bickering over who is right and who is wrong with regards to weights in the damage formula, and people will continue to waste their time and money investing in their gear. Everybody loses. So devs, please work on getting a formula out there so we can get a better understanding how to compare all these parameters.

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I have to agree in this point!

the necro of all necros

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

the necro of all necros

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this is pretty impressive of a feat