Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

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Originally Posted by rawker

To show my utter disgust on how the i200 PLD gear looks like, i instantly glamoured it to AF1.

Butt cape? Seriously? I'd rather want a real cape.

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HEY! I like the butt cape! T-T But you're right, I'd rather have a real cape too. I mean who wouldn't want to look a bit insane with an awesome real cape..

https://41.media.tumblr.com/0e335f2a...pjkqo1_500.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pots_Talos

We just need more PLDs like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqnwxWjQGI4

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I think he plays drk now, or atleast when I see him on my server he is on his drk. But I don't really know the guy or talk to him either, so idk if he really raids with his pld still.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Actually from the page you linked (23). Only two showed his distaste for the job, neither claiming a liability. The others admitted that the only problem with PLD was it's lack of aoe paired with a bad summoner, aoes, or pick ups.

Another actually appears to have admitted they originally took PLD due to wanting to lazy through the fight and not learn the waves, depending heavily on hallow.

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That link was token it was the first one on Google, as I said in my post look round all the BG tank threads, the reasons vary but the conclusion is the same. It was in my post. Please read my post QQ nvm I'm posting a lot recently. I think a major weakness of mine when posting is I expect people to actually do the complete reading I suggest for them when they actually have lives to live or XIV to play.

The main point is really that the shield is so small, it is supposed to be class defining but it provides less mitigation than the rage of halone effect debuff and has the same type limitation! Or - if you ignore damage type - maintaining storms path!

I think more of my recent posts have been storms path advocacy than class balance. It's so good O.O

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Originally Posted by MeeYow

Something

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Actually you said that people were claiming that PLD was a liability in AS2 and then posted a link to a particular page, which I then proved wrong by actually reading said page. Their actual point was the same thing everyone has been saying here, PLD needs moar dps, WAR/DRK is now more favorable for their AoE DPS since they end fights faster, nothing there claimed them to be a liability for said fight. Secondly I'm not reading an entire forum for the sake of your point

And no, Things like bulwark paired with other wise weak CD's make Shield pretty nice in events that have lots of enemies, as it lowers the RNG all together of blocks. But BG did have a good point in that WAR could actually get the same effect with parry. Forgot they get extra while holding IB.

Edit: Also Storms path and RoH wouldn't really help in the situation I'm referring to.. Since both attacks are single target and not multiple and the effects wouldn't be there upon start up.

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Originally Posted by Kaisinel

@ nadirah yes serinah on kaisinel was my aion character.

@ercapote all those wings gonna need you be mount less just fly through HW with your armor? Like the colors are fine it's just god awful gaudy

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Mynistri@Kaisinel. Ran the cleric vent server for a few months after release. Eventually quit. Too grindy.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Actually you said that people were claiming that PLD....

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2.x WAR did not get extra parry whilst holding IB it got crit. I can't remember if we were discussing old WAR or current WAR because so many people are trying to run round the houses to avoid having a direct argument. This is me being confused and lazy though, not you.

I am going to again ask you to check the responses in the DRK, WAR and PLD threads before going on that individual page which says PLD was slower and that the only reason it was taken was laziness.

Early fights every turn were enrage races, and favoured WAR/DRK as for the rest of Alex savage, PLD is OK now because DPS are geared enough to provide buffer to not hit enrage.

You even said yourself PLD needs more DPS, if the shield were a good enough advantage it wouldn't, even in early weeks, thanks for agreeing with me!

You are also agreeing with me that Bulwark requires pairing to be good? Thanks?

The comment about storms path and RoH is that people play up shield as a massive difference, whilst ignoring those debuffs, but both of them provide on average TWICE as much damage reduction as a shield. Also when I farm A2S I can keep RoH on all mobs if it is needed, as all of the large packs are stunned by the gobwalker move temporary insanity, and don't attack anyway. Only double doll or gobwidow/doll phases require any RoH at all and then there is only two mobs.

Honestly I think we are approaching the same argument from different angles, you seem to agree with me. Except on the idea that in early raid clears beating enrage was the most important, I will leave that question open, but I personally think if you didn't meet the enrage timer, nothing else mattered.

Also: I too am affectionate towards the butt cape, and my dainty fairy wings whilst I receive plasma to the face.

Weak or not It'll still remain boring to play regardless and a bunch of buttons you'll never press.

How is Paladin a liability in endgame raids if they were part of the world firsts for 1+2. A paladin cleared a3s soon after the world first when even the devs weren't expecting it to be cleared that early.
And a Paladin cleared a4s 16days after the 3rd world clear of a4s. And by nature thats comparing to world firsts which involve min maxing and using whatever combination and strat to push the team to the win.
I think most salty Paladins crying about being a liability in end game raiding just plain suck.

The reason many PLDs today are saying PLD needs dps is because of how the current dps checks are. I have been a PLD since 2.0, and I do not like the idea of PLDs having the same dps as a DRK. Currently, I can put up to 550 dps with melded gear (3/5) in A3s. Many PLDs should know that the reason why we don't have that much dps is because we a have shield. People have a point when they say that most statics have clear A4 with a Drk first, or that with a Drk the fight is faster. We just going to have to adapt to Drk having more DPS.I am not saying PLD is a good place though. His playing style is just boring with simple and a drizzle of sleep. He needs some tweaks, but now we know that they have heard us, lets just see what they get changed.

A paladin cleared a3s soon after the world first when even the devs weren't expecting it to be cleared that early. Eeep that was me; though honestly I only stuck with PLD because we were so many attempts (600+?) on A3S that changing to DRK and optimizing a DPS and cool down rotation would have taken several days when the DPS was just that tight. I actually ended up doing 650 DPS on our kill, which is around what the DRKs in the other first week (well first week it was cleared) ended at IIRC so the difference wasn't actually that great, but obviously it was enough for us to take longer also considering we didn't use a DRG either.

Basically, if we had thought to switch to DRK/DRG instead of PLD/MNK maybe a week earlier we probably would have done it.

And then I switched to DRK for A4S, because that entire fight is just designed around DRK tanking. =/

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

A paladin cleared a3s soon after the world first when even the devs weren't expecting it to be cleared that early. Eeep that was me; though honestly I only stuck with PLD because we were so many attempts (600+?) on A3S that changing to DRK and optimizing a DPS and cool down rotation would have taken several days when the DPS was just that tight. I actually ended up doing 650 DPS on our kill, which is around what the DRKs in the other first week (well first week it was cleared) ended at IIRC so the difference wasn't actually that great, but obviously it was enough for us to take longer also considering we didn't use a DRG either.

Basically, if we had thought to switch to DRK/DRG instead of PLD/MNK maybe a week earlier we probably would have done it.

And then I switched to DRK for A4S, because that entire fight is just designed around DRK tanking. =/

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Hopefully this post isn't overlooked. It really helps shed light on the other variables that were keeping PLD from being represented in more kills (aka more than DPS).

yep it depends if you find a friendly static that don't mind carrying a lackluster pld cause main issue is many healers don't try to dps at all which with a dark war or war war they don't even have to attack and still clear it 1 min faster.

Any clear done with pld were cause everyone were dpsing and didn't mind taking a minute longer to try to prove this fake point.

My pld 3 dummy's solo sword oath is 1k dps same targets same il193 im sure a drk would do 200 war 300 more only using dps combos skipping the pld enmity roh one.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

yep it depends if you find a friendly static that don't mind carrying a lackluster pld cause main issue is many healers don't try to dps at all which with a dark war or war war they don't even have to attack and still clear it 1 min faster.

Any clear done with pld were cause everyone were dpsing and didn't mind taking a minute longer to try to prove this fake point.

My pld 3 dummy's solo sword oath is 1k dps same targets same il193 im sure a drk would do 200 war 300 more only using dps combos skipping the pld enmity roh one.

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WARs parse higher than DRGs and MNKs on dummies? Holy shit I need to speak with my Warrior.

3 training dummy's try it wars is a dps tank class hybrid and that's kind of proven by now. darks are midrange kind of like bards in dps. and all classes hit better than a pld if all same ilevel.

Also my drg il193 does 1.3k min on dummy's even if I fail its rotations a few times if you don't then you need to relearn how to drg and also don't forget dummy's are a bad test in real dutys but do show the example of the off tank imbalance. like pld 100% to a drk like 85% to a war 80% efficiently playing would mean same kind of dps. far worse on pld if done tests as all 3 main tank modes but cant main tank effectively on dummy's so useless to test.

also im mentioning from the imbalance as an off tank if pld main tanked remove like 300+ to 400 if single target off that min as shield oath is kind of a 30% dps loss cause auto attacks make up a lot on pld.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

3 training dummy's try it wars is a dps tank class hybrid and that's kind of proven by now. darks are midrange kind of like bards in dps. and all classes hit better than a pld if all same ilevel.

Also my drg il193 does 1.3k min on dummy's even if I fail its rotations a few times if you don't then you need to relearn how to drg and also don't forget dummy's are a bad test in real dutys but do show the example of the off tank imbalance. like pld 100% to a drk like 85% to a war 80% efficiently playing would mean same kind of dps. far worse on pld if done tests as all 3 main tank modes but cant main tank effectively on dummy's so useless to test.

also im mentioning from the imbalance as an off tank if pld main tanked remove like 300+ to 400 if single target off that min as shield oath is kind of a 30% dps loss cause auto attacks make up a lot on pld.

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1.3k minimum on a dummy at ilvl 193? Holy shit, maybe you should be writing the Dragoon guide, not Dervy/Thendiel!

The best we were all getting was about 1315ish at ilvl 200+. Teach us your ways! As long as your ways don't include; food, party buff, pots and parsing for like...30 seconds.

Also every WAR must suck, because I never see them do as much damage as a DPS...goddamn WARs, stop sucking the donger!

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Originally Posted by RapBreon

The best we were all getting was about 1315ish at ilvl 200+. Teach us your ways! As long as your ways don't include; food, party buff, pots and parsing for like...30 seconds.!

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To be fair on their part Dervy did a post on his dps compared to a monk of similar item levels at 195 no food pot etc and he got a tad over 1.3k.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lh61?context=3

Yeah aion was annoying I played maybe 5 months? Lol

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Originally Posted by Snowy_Mist

To be fair on their part Dervy did a post on his dps compared to a monk of similar item levels at 195 no food pot etc and he got a tad over 1.3k.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lh61?context=3

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Higher than I would've expected; but it fulfills a few conditions that Valkyrie seems to take for granted. Perfect play + good luck. Certainly not the standard or the conditions described by the above.

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Originally Posted by Snowy_Mist

To be fair on their part Dervy did a post on his dps compared to a monk of similar item levels at 195 no food pot etc and he got a tad over 1.3k.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...lh61?context=3

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I believe ge stated that both the mnk and his parse were "cherry picked" as the highest they both did out the same number of dummy parses. So, I do not believe 1.3k was the "norm" at I lvl 192.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

A paladin cleared a3s soon after the world first when even the devs weren't expecting it to be cleared that early. Eeep that was me; though honestly I only stuck with PLD because we were so many attempts (600+?) on A3S that changing to DRK and optimizing a DPS and cool down rotation would have taken several days when the DPS was just that tight. I actually ended up doing 650 DPS on our kill, which is around what the DRKs in the other first week (well first week it was cleared) ended at IIRC so the difference wasn't actually that great, but obviously it was enough for us to take longer also considering we didn't use a DRG either.

Basically, if we had thought to switch to DRK/DRG instead of PLD/MNK maybe a week earlier we probably would have done it.

And then I switched to DRK for A4S, because that entire fight is just designed around DRK tanking. =/

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650? wow, nice. you had melded gear and were stance dancing correct?

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The best we were all getting was about 1315ish at ilvl 200+.

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I get about 1285 as i194 without food or pots, but I only parse for about 3 minutes. The longer you parse, the less your DPS is for a number of reasons, human error, longer time from opener is less DPS too since opener is a huge ass DPS burst. If he parsed for maybe 90 seconds, it's possible...either that or he used potion/food and maybe Mercy Stroke XD

now a il193+ drg that cant do a 1.3k dps on 3 dummy's in a strait line X X X <rear solo needs to improve even playing like 70% efficient could do 1.26k drunk missing most positional. no food no pots no party just optimal rotation. read drg thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...A-DPS-Paradigm

and yep my tests are done on a jp server masamune at 167 to 194ms ping. learn to play if you cant hit stationary targets course tank parse tank was positioned X X (pld) X so circle of scorn hit all dummy's.

But.....70% effeciency and still doing 1260 dps means 100% is 1800. Are you exaggerating just a little or no?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

now a il193+ drg that cant do a 1.3k dps on 3 dummy's in a strait line X X X <rear solo needs to improve even playing like 70% efficient could do 1.26k drunk missing most positional. no food no pots no party just optimal rotation. read drg thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...A-DPS-Paradigm

and yep my tests are done on a jp server masamune at 167 to 194ms ping. learn to play if you cant hit stationary targets course tank parse tank was positioned X X (pld) X so circle of scorn hit all dummy's.

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Then I have but only one thing to say to you.

You are easily the best player I have EVER met. I would be HONOURED to wash your feet. Fuck, I'm pretty sure the entire thread you just linked would line up for your secret sauce!

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

now a il193+ drg that cant do a 1.3k dps on 3 dummy's in a strait line

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How did this slip my attention!

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

But.....70% effeciency and still doing 1260 dps means 100% is 1800. Are you exaggerating just a little or no?

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*Gasp* how...dare you!

DRAGOONS! PROTECT YOUR MASTER!

*Sub-optimal Dragon Fire Dive!*

I love how fools don't take ping into calculation each 100 is like 10% efficiency loss So even performing optimally I would have been 84% at best, yeah maybe I was lieing a tiny bit about 70% but already 10% every second efficiency loss so would have been like 1.44k with party but the idea in solo dummy parses is to factor in team benefits and possible debuffs after and yep that's how all the first server clears were done they did their homework on optimizing their stats and rotations.

No were getting pld clears that first one was like 2 weeks after first clears cause people fighting for first clears worked out the optimal formations that have resulted in even if pld can clear stuff now its sub optimal and requires all other raid people to be better geared than the server first clear groups and no they weren't we will take a class suboptimal to beat the rest course then some groups decided to try clear it with pld to pretend their formation beats server first best formations.

The reason people took pld were to try and make a name for themselves taking a suboptimal class and yes for the average people that's fine but their ar many alite raid groups out there that go by time is money and need max efficiency clears and they are more than the minor 10% population se mentions.

Now please all you trolls get your research and facts correct before saying a class better geared than the first server cleared classes is balanced.

Because using aoe(multiple targets) gets you an accurate parse when simulating boss fights on a dummy.

Right.

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Originally Posted by Tadus

650? wow, nice. you had melded gear and were stance dancing correct?

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Basically to o optimize all parts of the fight, I tanked the entire first section in Shield Oath which allowed the WHM to solo heal and the SCH to just DPS for the first 3 minutes. We tried Sword Oath but the threat was too poor; even using Halone ender's for 60-70% of the combo's I still lost threat around the first knock back. Maybe woulda been fine if the SCH healed more but our SCH ended the first section of the fight at 700-800 DPS, so me sitting in Shield Oath to let that happen was worth it.

Adds: Rampart/Shield Oath first tether, swap to Sword Oath and then Sentinel the 2nd one. I tanked the first section in Sword Oath, which was fine because the WHM had used Shroud so threat was fine. (cleaves in Sword Oath were Shelltron, Bulwark, Rampart overlapping 3+4, and Shelltron could get the 4th also). That also saved a GCD from switching during the tank swap. I used 2 stuns on the hand (stun -> goring blade combo -> stun -> RA's), then took it back in shield oath for the tether/ball section. Healing always seemed very tight at times during the 3rd type of whirlpool phase so I never tried to sword oath there... rest of fight = sword oath not taking, shield oath tanking. The 2nd hallowed ground of the fight used for the 2nd tether in the 6th whirlpool phase (we used Hallowed to single tank the first cleaves for the first hand). I think the first tether usually had both Sentinel+Rampart ready, so shield oath wasn't required there either. Oh fun tip people probably know/figured out since then but Tempered will lets you just run through those protean waves to pick up the tether, fun times.

As far as gear, I bought Hauteclair since you could get it the 2nd week, and then I believe for the kill I used.... 3 melded accessories and 2 STR accessories. My lodestone profiled showed all 5 melded after the kill, we noticed some JP posts saying I was lucky I didn't just randomly die during the fight (wonder if it would blow their minds if they knew I didn't use all 5). And then some others that said Hauteclaire was cheating lol, but it probably only added 10-15 DPS for PLD but that was enough to net us the kill so it was worth it.

I'm interested to see the 3.1 PLD changes, one of their largest disadvantages right now is the stance dancing, its by far the worst of the 3 tanks. If they switched those to offglobals or allowed you to keep your place in the combo while switching PLD would be a lot stronger in a fight such as A4S. PLD felt very natural in A3S to me, but extremely clunky in A4S. I guess its worth noting I tried PLD in A4S right when we started for like... a day. I switched to DRK, not really knowing anything about how to optimize it and was doing over 200 more DPS every attempt than I was doing on PLD, and the scariest part back then on PLD... the quarentine, was completely trivialized by Dark Arts Dark Dance, dodge those paunzerfausts all day, i'd use it on the big dolls too, dodge the kauzstrals or cleaves or whatever is really awesome.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

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I have a question. How come you never had the WAR Berserk and build a threat lead for you to provoke off? Was it too finicky, a DPS loss or just not a substantial enough lead?

We tried this it didn't work so well for us. But we couldn't really come up with a definitive answer (though we had suspicions). Curious to hear your perspective.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

I love how fools don't take ping into calculation each 100 is like 10% efficiency loss

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Sorry for off-topic but ping is actually a reason why our melee DD ditched DRG untill EU data-centers comes, he simply couldnt pull that optimal DRG opening rotation due lag and he also ecountered similiar problem with NIN's mudra lag. So MNK is really only melee DD he can play for maximum potential atm as it doesnt suffer from lag that bad compared to DRG/NIN.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Sorry for off-topic but ping is actually a reason why our melee DD ditched DRG untill EU data-centers comes, he simply couldnt pull that optimal DRG opening rotation due lag and he also ecountered similiar problem with NIN's mudra lag. So MNK is really only melee DD he can play for maximum potential atm as it doesnt suffer from lag that bad compared to DRG/NIN.

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I get crappy mudra lag and I'm *in* NA.

Any other game, East Coast servers: 70s or better.

FFXIV East Coast server: 140 ms on a good day.

Wat.

Isn't this like the third time this expansion they've said they don't think something is too weak, and that they were buffing it in the same interview?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

I love how fools don't take ping into calculation each 100 is like 10% efficiency loss So even performing optimally I would have been 84% at best, yeah maybe I was lieing a tiny bit about 70% but already 10% every second efficiency loss

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Oh boy. Super Saiyagoon training in 100x latency & hiding his power level to boot! I don't know what I expected opening this thread.

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Originally Posted by Disc

Super Saiyagoon

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It's now Super Saiyagoon God Super Saiyagoon with Blood of the Dragon's blue aura.

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Originally Posted by Parasite

IMO its not the PLD that is broken, its the unbalanced content that needs adjustments.

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Its kinda mix of both altho i would use term unfinished instead broken, since 2.0 whole job felt like it was half done.

Biggest thing i have been waiting since 2.0 are oGCD stances that doesnt brake comboes, that alone will make whole job feel more fluid and frequent stance swapping makes your mana matter more. They could make it 5s recast due mana cost, and this could be upped to cost up to 1k+ if needed because of balance(Grit needs same treatment).

Then we get to Shield Swipe, this could be turned to be similiar to Overpower/Reprisal where it is oGCD proc-based cone AoE with short cooldown to give small boost for PLD's AoE DPS, remove pasification from it if needed(rip melee silence in pvp).

Now that our only "TP" restore skill is removed there needs to be new proper one in place(DRK's need proper one too, BW was just a band-aid fix), maybe copy-cat WAR and add 100TP restore to Clemency or in Tempered Will so that gets more usage than it currently gets. I would personally add it to Shelltron and replace mana with TP(we already have Riot for mana), and instead it could give something like 20-30TP because it has so short CD(also why not add magic block gimmick to this one skill just so you can get TP even on magic heavy fights).

DV also needs recast time reduction to make it more usefull and maybe remove the proc requirement, and generally some CD's could use slight recast reductions to make PLD's this so called "King of Migitation". And instead of having a cast Clemency could be insta-cast on CD if it also has that TP restore effect(TP or not insta-cast would be nice)or cut the cast time by 50%.

I dont want to touch on DPS subject as i suck in math but maybe lower ShO penaly lil bit to boost tank stance DPS so its slightly closer to WAR/DRK.

I'd not complain Shield Swipe being on GCD if they increase its potency and enmity modifier slightly behind of a combo-ed RoH since it can only be executed after each block.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

Isn't this like the third time this expansion they've said they don't think something is too weak, and that they were buffing it in the same interview?

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Well, the interview did not say "buff". It said "changes". Besides, just because a job isn't weak doesn't mean that another job can't be stronger than it.

Edit: I think that a dev would concede that a job is weak if it was actually impossible to complete content with it.

He's not wrong. Paladin is still a strong class. It's just the raid content was clearly aimed at making sure dark knights weren't a complete flop.

The devs didn't even want to concede that Warrior was weak in 2.0, when the class was so astoundingly unfit for the existing raid content that 2.1 had to essentially redesign it entirely.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

The devs didn't even want to concede that Warrior was weak in 2.0, when the class was so astoundingly unfit for the existing raid content that 2.1 had to essentially redesign it entirely.

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If it was so unfit why would one of the most min maxing groups in the game, Lucrezia use it for 2 floors when they had the option of 3 tanks?

This isn't like 2.0 warrior sorry.

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Originally Posted by Snowy_Mist

If it was so unfit why would one of the most min maxing groups in the game, Lucrezia use it for 2 floors when they had the option of 3 tanks?

This isn't like 2.0 warrior sorry.

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They used it for Alex 1 because they had no clue what they had, so going in they took the tankiest tank (paladin) and warrior, and cleared it because A1S doesn't matter about tanks.

And A2S was purely physical, so why not take the paladin? A3S and A4S both had war/drk for a reason.