Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

you know what? It's funny that whenever i parse as a warrior, my DPS is always about 1000-9xx thro the dg while i see some DPS jobs doing 300 to 400 dps. Tell the damage dealers to practice their rotations before asking tanks to wear str accessories

Honestly, I don't even pay attention to what the tank is wearing - no matter what accessories they wear they'll never go below 70% HP and I'll never go below 50% MP in experts -- so STR or VIT doesn't matter in the current experts. I'm more concerned with the dps doing 400-600 while using i200 weapons...that is where the real finger pointing should be for slow or longer dungeon runs. However -- I do think that it gets annoying carrying new tanks (in law gear or lower) who read stuff like this and try to tank like an experienced tank and so overpull wearing all STR, don't use cooldowns properly, and make me heal them for more and dps less. I'll still never run out of MP, they'll still never dip below 70%, but they'll never 'learn' to use CDs by losing HP quickly because, as a healer healing them, they won't. Unless the OP is saying I should let them get hurt just a lil more so they learn :P

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Originally Posted by Blueskyy

you know what? It's funny that whenever i parse as a warrior, my DPS is always about 1000-9xx thro the dg while i see some DPS jobs doing 300 to 400 dps. Tell the damage dealers to practice their rotations before asking tanks to wear str accessories

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This is why WoW has a the rotation spelled out to us in the spellbook in-game and explaining just how effective the stats are.

And here we get the cho cho train of "meh" thinking it's all a good job when in fact it's only decent at best. Worst part is the DPS are stuck having to deal with mechanics most of the time.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

This is why WoW has a the rotation spelled out to us in the spellbook in-game and explaining just how effective the stats are.

And here we get the cho cho train of "meh" thinking it's all a good job when in fact it's only decent at best. Worst part is the DPS are stuck having to deal with mechanics most of the time.

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Except the leveling in this game is a giant tutorial. Honestly how do you not understand a basic rotation after leveling? You get 1 ability at a time in a way where it pretty much spells out when and how it should be used as well as a decent span of time before they give you the next step. Oh that's right they assume you have a brain and actually read what the abilities say in the tool tip. There's only a few which throw a complete rotation change at you at the last second but they have already taught you what the basic concept will be. Like monk and blm in 2.X

A tank should use whatever accessories are needed for the encounters, for group balance, and what the healer(s)' comfortable with. I find it a general rule to keep a full STR and VIT accessory set on hand, and always mix in pieces dynamically.

It's always been this way.




....stop telling me what to do, dammit.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I .. am actually a summoner for roleplay purposes, so I can wear summoner gear. Sorry dude, I have multiple toons/characters.

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Riddle me this, my role playing OP;
Say I roleplay a tank who's allergic to slaying accessories, would your complaints not break the RPnerd code of ethics?

#DarkWarriordin <3 Phoenicia

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Originally Posted by Drtoxicmedica

Except the leveling in this game is a giant tutorial. Honestly how do you not understand a basic rotation after leveling? You get 1 ability at a time in a way where it pretty much spells out when and how it should be used as well as a decent span of time before they give you the next step. Oh that's right they assume you have a brain and actually read what the abilities say in the tool tip. There's only a few which throw a complete rotation change at you at the last second but they have already taught you what the basic concept will be. Like monk and blm in 2.X

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Fate grinding has a lot to do with why people are bad at their jobs at max level.

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Originally Posted by DestinovaTrueblade

Fate grinding has a lot to do with why people are bad at their jobs at max level.

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This.
Now that the xp has been buffed people level alt jobs even from lvl 50-60 purely through fates only.
You have 2 kinds of players.The fate grinders or the dungeon players.Needless to say it's not rocket science which player is gonna be better at their roles.

Just want to clarify i wasn't personally advocating that new tanks go str acc.I was jsut stating that warriors in full dps mode constantly can carry dps.It shouldn't be the case but it happens frequently.And for mechanics like the adds in fractual last boss my fell cleaves have made the difference between the adds going down in time or getting too far across the room.

Back on topic with str acc for new tanks.SHouldn't be done period.Stay with vit always while new to the role.When you have mastered your cooldowns useage and know the differences between main tanking and offtanking by all means go start useing str,But if you still struggle in str mode it's fine to just say vit.It's better tank stays alive than eats dirt and causes wipe.That makes for a much slower run.

Great... more newbs will come into dungeons in full STR accessories and melt from mob crits before a healer can even cast anything.

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Originally Posted by Flipside101

Great... more newbs will come into dungeons in full STR accessories and melt from mob crits before a healer can even cast anything.

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Honestly though, this (common) response is such an over reaction. You don't even need a tank in any 3.0 dungeons anymore. Regardless of what accessories a tank is wearing, if they're getting killed off before the healer had a chance to heal them up, then the healer needs to learn how to play or needs to pause Netflix more frequently.

If you can't heal a tank with 14k hp in a level 60 dungeon you should perhaps get some more practice. You'd literally have to stand there for about 15 - 20 seconds doing nothing in order for the tank to die.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

Regardless of what accessories a tank is wearing, if they're getting killed off before the healer had a chance to heal them up, then the healer needs to learn how to play or needs to pause Netflix more frequently.

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Honestly I think this depends a lot on the healer's gear and also if they dps. If the healer is all in unupgraded law gear and/or fresh 60, and the tank is wearing all STR and doing super pulls and not using cooldowns correctly - then yes, I can see that tank dying to a few crits within seconds on those pulls he shouldn't have been doing to start with, especially if the tank is also new to 60 and in not that great of gear. In these cases, healing output can't keep up with damage taken and time available given healing cast times. All things need to be considered and often a new healer won't be able to keep up with the damage the new tank is taking -- especially if these new tanks mimic the experienced ones and keep trying to tank trash pulls in deliverance and STR gear with all 160 gear.

Personally since my PLD is only lvl 50, I'd never try to give advice or say how easy tanking is at 60 --- I think the same should go for anyone saying how bad a healer would need to be or how easy it is if they don't also have a healer doing exactly what they say is so easy to do.

The game is about dpsing. Whatever is your job/class, to reach its maximal potential you have to try to make the more dps you can while tanking or healing.

Of course everyone can just simply heal, aggro, or kill, it doesn't change the fact that the ultimate goal for every class is the biggest dps possible.
Everyone can finish a dungeon. The thing is about to finish it as quickly as possible in the end.

Newbies should have a balance mix of str & vit
Veteran should use as much Str as they can. I mean... to continue to progress as a gamer. (it's not obligatory of course !)

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

If you can't heal a tank with 14k hp in a level 60 dungeon you should perhaps get some more practice. You'd literally have to stand there for about 15 - 20 seconds doing nothing in order for the tank to die.

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I can't heal a tank with 14k hp that doesn't stay in range long enough to get more than a lustrate off in some of these.

First room in fractal is really bad sometimes. Esp with deliverance warriors that seem to forget how to grab initial hate.

My left side is purely decided upon avoiding parry and adjusting accuracy. Doesn't have to be full vit I agree but as long as your right side isn't making up for it, stick with VIT

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Originally Posted by kaox_reaper

So "play how is most beneficial to the group" kinda thread? Sounds fun.

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ftfy. welcome to multiplayer games, where other people can be affected by your bad decisions.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

1- Each atack you Parry reduce dmg 20-25%

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Parry got changed, and it no longer scales - at all. It's a flat 20% now. This means that you have to have 5% parry to get 1% mitigation. As a DRK, if I stack parry, I can get close to 20% parry rate, which is 4% mitigation, based on RNG. Paladins get about 5% less, iirc. I'd rather have 2% flat mitigation, tbh. Note: I like parry as DRK, but not for its own mitigation. I don't stack it, but I'm not dumping it entirely either. TBH, STR "mitigates" more damage.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

2- More VIT - Parry - Block the tank have more DPS i can Do as healer and surely my DPS will be more than a PLD/DRK with STR accesories - Also on warrior that 20% + healing helps HoTs a lot and let me... do more DPS.

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VIT doesn't help your defense at all. Block does, and is a good thing, but VIT doesn't. All VIT does is give you more HP, period. If you have a bad healer and slow dps, you might need more HP, but if the healer's DPS'ing and you're still not falling below 50%, then putting on STR gear is probably a good idea. As for parry, see above.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

3- If ur dungeons are taking forever u should check DPSs and urself before point the tank.

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True. That doesn't mean you can't help out a bit by using Sword Oath/Deliverance (or having Grit off) when possible and/or having STR accessories when you don't actually need the extra HP.

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

Give me my tanks full VIT/PARRY with high block rate shields and good CDs rotation, thank u ;)

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Most tanks carry VIT accessories. If you're on AST and get a tank that doesn't have enough hp for you to be comfortable, you should ask them (nicely) to put some extra vit on. Me? I could go full STR and you probably wouldn't even know it these days unless you examined me, simply because the amount of VIT I have with i190-i200 and full slaying accessories is nearly the same as I had with i170-i180 gear and full fending accessories.

Oh, and btw....a good WAR in full STR gear is probably easier to heal than any WAR in full VIT (good, bad, or ugly), because many of their self-healing abilities scale with STR.

--Erim Nelhah

I reached level 60 on my dark knight a few days ago and bought the vitality i170 accessories simply to help because the rest of my gear was lacking. Right now I'm i179 with around 16k. How much hp would I need? I have all the i190 strength accessories since I geared dragoon before I reached lvl60 on my DRK. In 8 man content most groups won't let me MT because apparently 16k is not enough.

Also, what is best? Attribute points in VIT, STR accs, or STR attribute points and STR accs?

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Originally Posted by Hivernica

I reached level 60 on my dark knight a few days ago and bought the vitality i170 accessories simply to help because the rest of my gear was lacking. Right now I'm i179 with around 16k. How much hp would I need? I have all the i190 strength accessories since I geared dragoon before I reached lvl60 on my DRK. In 8 man content most groups won't let me MT because apparently 16k is not enough.

Also, what is best? Attribute points in VIT, STR accs, or STR attribute points and STR accs?

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Attribute points in STR. Get STR acc when the rest of your gear is good.

I believe if you are a PLD, then you stack vitality.

The reason being is to allow the PLD to do their own "healing" with stoneskin and protection. They can absorb as much damage as possible before a healer has to intervene.
In which case a healer can in all other times, perform nuking DPS actions.

If you are a WAR or a DRK, then the best option is to give yourself just enough vitality to survive, and stack strength for the rest. This maximizes the DPS potential of each, because the healer has to heal Wars and Drks more often than Plds.

No even as PLD I use STR accessories.

1) Clemency Scales with it

2) My protection actually goes up as I tend to use Bloodbath.

3) I like to stance dance and Royal Authority does decent damage.

Do this:
Are you the tank?
If yes, did you die while tanking in STR gear?
If No, ask the healer if they had to struggle to keep you up, did they?
If no, Keep on keeping on. If yes, start swapping out some vit items and see how that does until you get better gear, or use CD's effectively.

All this may change in upcoming content, but right now, I haven't come across anything that really posed any threat to me other than the healer falling asleep, as a tank in str. (note, I'm speaking as a warrior and NOT in Savage Alex).

I actually had a healer in Neverreap EX roulette tell me to stay in deliverance and in my str gear and just tank in that. It was the quickest and smoothest run I ever been in for roulette. I wish I remembered the healers name.

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Originally Posted by Shyle

Do this:
Are you the tank?
If yes, did you die while tanking in STR gear?
If No, ask the healer if they had to struggle to keep you up, did they?
If no, Keep on keeping on. If yes, start swapping out some vit items and see how that does until you get better gear, or use CD's effectively.

All this may change in upcoming content, but right now, I haven't come across anything that really posed any threat to me other than the healer falling asleep, as a tank in str. (note, I'm speaking as a warrior and NOT in Savage Alex).

I actually had a healer in Neverreap EX roulette tell me to stay in deliverance and in my str gear and just tank in that. It was the quickest and smoothest run I ever been in for roulette. I wish I remembered the healers name.

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The issue is. If things die faster, you actually have to heal less. The longer the fight is, the longer your mana drains.

Strength, by making you do more damage literally makes the fight shorter. It increases your survivability.

"They can't keel u if they are alrdy ded!"

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Originally Posted by Noira

No even as PLD I use STR accessories.

1) Clemency Scales with it

2) My protection actually goes up as I tend to use Bloodbath.

3) I like to stance dance and Royal Authority does decent damage.

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However, Paladin does have more reason to go full VIT than the other two tanks because they can Stoneskin themselves, have Divine Veil, and cast interruption is apparently based on what % of your max HP you've been hit for. Warriors arguably have reason to stack VIT because of how Defiance and Thrill of Battle work but it's still better for them to stack STR for Bloodbath and Equilibrium, and Dark Knights actually benefit in some ways from stacking STR over VIT because of Souleater and Living Dead.

It's kind of funny to me how two of the three tank jobs actually work better with their in-built kits if they use DPS accessories. And morbidly hilarious that using tank accessories on one of them is actually a considerable detriment.

You're making this suggestion to "new players" but imo that's the worst audience to be making this suggestion to. It's the new tanks that tend to be bad with their cd/rotation and are under geared. They need to learn to tank first before becoming a master of maximizing their tank dps via dps stance/dps accessories. Maybe you need to work on your own dps so tanks don't have to compensate and do your job for you.

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Originally Posted by echoica

You're making this suggestion to "new players" but imo that's the worst audience to be making this suggestion to. It's the new tanks that tend to be bad with their cd/rotation and are under geared. They need to learn to tank first before becoming a master of maximizing their tank dps via dps stance/dps accessories. Maybe you need to work on your own dps so tanks don't have to compensate and do your job for you.

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I don't mind switching to Cleric Stance when we are pulling an encounter at a time. However when EVERY SINGLE TANK, goes into full room pulls you don't really have time to switch out to DPS especially if your a ilvl154 new healer like I am. Every time I have had a strength tank we have been doing fine because I am able to keep him up and the mobs die fast.

However, every time I have a bloated VIT tank they take forever to die and rely on their bloated HP. The mobs eventually kill us because I either or dps rip aggro, run out of mana or the mobs last too long and kill the tank or dps.

Vitality does not increase your survivability, it increases your "own" chance to make mistakes. Its a very "SELFISH" stat.

Strength on the other hand, makes the fight easier and faster for the healer because it makes the fight quicker.

I asked to slow down, got vote kicked. I play a Tank and a Healer and I do room pulls. However I use my CDs and make sure to go full DPS so they don't have to heal me for very long.

"That extra 200+ strength you get from left accessories and stat points matter. A LOT."


Strength tanks care about DPS and their rotations defensive and offensive. They pay attention to mechanics and dodge more.

Vitality tanks are lazy and usually go through threat rotations more because they have to to even hold aggro. They usually make mistakes, a lot of them and seem afkish and yell at you when they pull 3-4 rooms and it takes 2 minutes to kill then whine when they die.

This has happened several times already.. sorry.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

However, every time I have a bloated VIT tank they take forever to die and rely on their bloated HP. The mobs eventually kill us because I either or dps rip aggro, run out of mana or the mobs last too long and kill the tank or dps.

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On mob fights tank DPS has minimal effect atleast it does for me. Its more for the boss fights that its actually noticeable. If mobs are taking too long, its not the tanks fault.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

-Snip-

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This brings up the other half of the "skill" thing. Let's remember the rules of fist:

If you are not an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a given dungeon, run with Vitality accessories (not necessarily full VIT, but two or three pieces to lend some wriggle room.)
If you are not an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a given dungeon, don't do multi-pack pulls.
If you are an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a dungeon, run with Strength accessories to accelerate kill times and look badass.
If you are an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a dungeon, do multi-pack pulls as you see fit to accelerate clear times and look badass.

If your group has absolute garbage AoE capability (like, say, PLD, double NIN and a SCH), take whatever build you want but for the love of the DarkWaradin don't pull half the sodding dungeon in one go.

Now notice how the scenario you describe doesn't jive with those guidelines? Like as not your tank was just a novice who thought he was the new hotness about to go solo Savage.

But as others have been saying? If a pack of trash is taking the average runtime of an episode of Judge Judy to die, maaaaaybe look at the people who were recruited by the DF to kill the damn things before you look at the person who volunteered to be punched in the face for you.

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Originally Posted by Erit

This brings up the other half of the "skill" thing. Let's remember the rules of fist:

If you are not an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a given dungeon, run with Vitality accessories (not necessarily full VIT, but two or three pieces to lend some wriggle room.)
If you are not an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a given dungeon, don't do multi-pack pulls.
If you are an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a dungeon, run with Strength accessories to accelerate kill times and look badass.
If you are an experienced tank who knows the ins and outs of a dungeon, do multi-pack pulls as you see fit to accelerate clear times and look badass.

If your group has absolute garbage AoE capability (like, say, PLD, double NIN and a SCH), take whatever build you want but for the love of the DarkWaradin don't pull half the sodding dungeon in one go.

Now notice how the scenario you describe doesn't jive with those guidelines? Like as not your tank was just a novice who thought he was the new hotness about to go solo Savage.

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Except this has happened repeatedly and most tanks, even experienced ones just run full vitality and seem to go afk in the dungeon after they pull the room. One even had 3 counters on them. Then went to pull another room after he was dying and said: "Sorry, I usually live through that."

Then vote kicked me.

You are not every player, have you run with a healer yet or are you the tank yourself? You have to see both sides to get the full effect of the story. You yourself sound like a strength tank, so my favorite and pref to run with.

He was a ilvl 180+ novice then...

Every tank I have ever played with in my runs as a healer pull rooms regardless of how geared or class they are.

Some don't even wait for your faerie or protect. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Drtoxicmedica

Except the leveling in this game is a giant tutorial. Honestly how do you not understand a basic rotation after leveling? You get 1 ability at a time in a way where it pretty much spells out when and how it should be used as well as a decent span of time before they give you the next step. Oh that's right they assume you have a brain and actually read what the abilities say in the tool tip.

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Would you rather feel like a genius in a giant sea of bad, or would you rather have more people performing at near-acceptable levels? In some cases every little bit helps, and chances are this is why they're working on that "beginner's palace" thing.

I'll also disagree on the tutorial bit. Otherwise you wouldn't be seeing so many tanks in the 30's that still don't know that Fast Blade combos into Savage Blade for increased enmity on single targets and that Flash should be used for the enmity instead of the Blind effect.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

-Snip-

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Perhaps "experienced" wasn't quite the word I was looking for. Vitality says one of two things at this point: "I'm lazy" or "I'm scared". Once you move past "scared" and gain confidence in the dungeon and start pushing to do things better and better with every pass, that's what I meant by "experienced"; sadly, lazy can't be pushed past. It can only be dealt with and carried like a millstone tied to your genitals.

And no, I myself don't play as a healer very often. I let my girlfriend who plays right next to me and gives me constant feedback do that job, and sometimes FCmates if they feel like capping Esos. I've carried a handful underperforming DPS who could have done more damage by just sitting still and auto-attacking, and I can attest that if the healer runs out of juice on garbage, it's because either they goofed up, the tank goofed up, or the DPS forgot to equip their brains that run. Tank DPS can only accelerate matters one way or another, but a tank's itemization is not the root of the problem in the situation you described.

If they chain pull regardless of gear then... well, you can't heal stupid no matter how much MP you throw at it. I know when I first hit my experts in i147 I pulled everything one pack at a time and finished them off semi-cleanly. Then again, I come from Aion's style of tanking, which is the kind of trial-by-fire that puts the fear of god into you.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

However when EVERY SINGLE TANK, goes into full room pulls you don't really have time to switch out to DPS especially if your a ilvl154 new healer like I am. Every time I have had a strength tank we have been doing fine because I am able to keep him up and the mobs die fast.

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I figured this thread was starting to devolve into the OP's personal whining rather than actual proper theory, and this explains why.

You're a new scholar. In average gear. You are worried about fight length and worried about running out of mana.

No Scholar should ever run out of mana unless they're managing cooldowns incorrectly, DPSing hard, having to resurrect people or terribly geared.

Even in i154 a scholar should be able to find a few cooldowns to DoT up a pack and bane them. Scholar AOE dps is much much bigger than the difference between a tank going vit vs str accessories.

All of the sweeping statements you've made are from a few runs where some bad/lazy tanks have had issues and you've equated it with Vit/Str. Strawman arguments all over the place. Good tanks are good, bad tanks are bad, the best tanks choose their gear setup as appropriate to the lineup of the party. A paladin in a group with a BLM/SMN/SCH would probably be better off going heavier vit and pulling gigantic packs because they'll be mostly Flashing anyway and doing much lower AOE dps compared to the rest. A Warrior would most likely always be full strength.

There's 100% truth that a bit of extra vit on the tank should allow a few extra seconds of DPS on a healer, and for a scholar who wants to throw up 4-5 cast times for maximum AOE dps on a pack, it really sucks to have a tank with 14000 hp who needs a heal after 3-4 gcds. Yes, it depends on gear level, and once a tank is in 190+ gaer on the left side then yes, go strength. I'd never want to see a fresh 145 tank going full strength and pulling huge packs though unless the group was prepared.

If you're worried about -running out of mana- in a 4man instance, then it's nothing whatsoever to do with whether the tank runs vit or str, and it's purely coincidence. They're managing cooldowns incorrectly, or you're healing incorrectly. The 15-20% extra tank DPS gained from going glass cannon compared to full vit should never be the difference between killing a pack fine and the healer running out of mana.

I'm a fan of the OP's suggestion. and I still get the occasional crap healers who struggle with half-pulls and blame me specifically because while I am overgeared, I prefer to use str accessories as a WAR. The horror.

There is no happy medium.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

The 15-20% extra tank DPS gained from going glass cannon compared to full vit should never be the difference between killing a pack fine and the healer running out of mana.

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That seems rather foolish.

Bonuses multiply with bonuses, that extra 20% + the extra 15-20% you get from darkside and maim or the extra 30% you get from FoF makes a HUGE difference. "Glass Cannon?" you lose no mitigation from switching vitality to strength. Gaining more health just makes the fight last longer, it does NOT make your healer heal any better. It does not improve your mitigation, it does not suddenly make the mobs on you hit for less.

As for pulls, yes I don't run out of mana with normal pulls and I can heal just fine and even cleric stance. However, most tanks "do not do normal pulls" They pull 3-4 encounters at a time and usually mass pull. 5 seconds is the difference between full HP and dead. Your full HP does not help.

However, doing the following for example does.

Warrior:
Maim+Internal Release+Full Berserk+Bloodbath+Vengeance+Infuriate+Unleash+Overpower+Full Strength Gear. ((Huge combo I know...))
Now you are healing significantly every time your attacked and every overpower hit. You are also doing a good chunk of damage and killing the mobs faster.

Dark Knight
Darkside+Salted Earth+Unleash/Or Abyssal Drain. (Use a CD if needed!)
Now you are dealing significant threat and pushing that damage on the mobs. It does a bit more damage then the Warriors version but has less sustain.

I don't play and have never played Paladin past 30 so I will not comment on them.

10000 and (2000 hps) vs 5000 (4000 hps)

Sustain beats it out every time unless the mob hits for 5001.

Str gives all the tanks extra damage but Warriors are the only one of the three tanks that get massive defensive returns from the added attack power i.e. 30 seconds of Bloodbath, Inner Beast, Storms Path, Eqilibrium, Berserk + all of those skills.

DRK doesn't have as many self healing options as the warrior so I can understand a DRK opting for more VIT gear. Same goes for PLD.

If you're wondering, I use 3 Vit / 2 Slaying on my warrior and paladin.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Str gives all the tanks extra damage but Warriors are the only one of the three tanks that get massive defensive returns from the added attack power i.e. 30 seconds of Bloodbath, Inner Beast, Storms Path, Eqilibrium, Berserk + all of those skills.

DRK doesn't have as many self healing options as the warrior so I can understand a DRK opting for more VIT gear. Same goes for PLD.

If you're wondering, I use 3 Vit / 2 Slaying on my warrior and paladin.

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VIT is still a detriment for Dark Knights due to Living Dead. Enough VIT to not be mistaken for a DPS, and then as much STR as you can hoard after that is the optimal setup, especially in the context of AoE tanking. I'll see your Warrior Overpower spam with Bloodbath and Vengeance on, and raise you Blood Price plus alternating DA>AD and Unleash spams with DP weaving. Assuming all other variables normalized, methinks that situation works out to about the same amount of effort for the healer to carry you through, but I'll defer to the judgement of the people who know how numbers work on that.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Bonuses multiply with bonuses, that extra 20% + the extra 15-20% you get from darkside and maim or the extra 30% you get from FoF makes a HUGE difference.

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You're assuming that a tank with some Vit wont use Maim/FoF/Darkside. Of course they will. 15-20% damage from Strength accessories is 15-20% damage. Not more. The tank's rotation wont change. They'll still use those skills regardless of stats.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

5 seconds is the difference between full HP and dead. Your full HP does not help

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If the extra Vit you gain changes it from 4 seconds to 6 seconds that's a whole extra GCD of damage a healer could do from a quick swap to cleric stance. And you CAN use cleric stance on big pulls. I have no issue with tanks pulling multiple packs of mobs when im healing on scholar, with a prepull shielding you can easily get a quick rotation of DoTs to Bane. Unless your tank is toting 14,000 health.

I'm not advocating full Vit. I'm just saying that a LOW GEARED tank trying to make big pulls will be hindering things if they go purely strength and dont hit a minimum threshold of comfortable health that means they can stay alive for 5-6 seconds without heals rather than 3-4.

And on the subject of paladins, they have next to no useable self healing on huge pulls and do far less AOE damage than other tanks as most aoe enmity comes from Flash which does no damage. They only have a crossclassed Bloodbath and Flash of course wont heal them from this. Bar Circle of Scorn on a 25 second cooldown, paladin aoe damage is limited to just cycling single target attacks. There's a reason that in 2.5 most paladins doing speed runs in instances tended to stack pure vit for the gigantic pulls, because they did minimal damage compared to the AOE of the healer/dps, so may as well let the healer DPS more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erit

I'll see your Warrior Overpower spam with Bloodbath and Vengeance on, and raise you Blood Price plus alternating DA>AD and Unleash spams with DP weaving.

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Yeah the HPS / AoE dps from those combos probably end up evening out—you're right. Without doing any hard testing though, I'd like to think (or hope) Berserk and Equilibrium put Warriors AoE dps/hps ahead lol.

@living dead, you're right, having HP in the 18k range makes a full heal pretty difficult but from my personal experience with seeing the skill in action, benediction is always mysteriously available LOL.