AST, MCH, DRK and their failure as new jobs at HW launch

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Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544

(darkside, parry based tank)

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Fun fact. WAR was meant to be a parry based tank, showing it today with a 100% parry chance cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Fun fact. WAR was meant to be a parry based tank

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And yet is incapable of using Keen Flurry? Hmm, I often wonder why SE messed up the cross-class skills so badly.

In my opinion, two of the three classes were okay at launch. That's to say Dark Knight and Astrologian. Perfectly capable in their own roles, since Astro only really feels the pinch at higher levels and Dark Knight never really had any breaking issues. Machinist, on the other hand, was a mess. The reload mechanic feels horribly clunky, even with the recent update, and the slow DPS makes it an agonizing job to level up.

In every party I've played, the MCH always falls behind in DPS and not by a small degree either. Having played the job, it doesn't flow as nicely as other classes, and each shot feels almost forced rather than natural. Even comparing MCH damage to its closest rival, the Bard, it doesn't seem to match up equally. Still, this is just my own personal opinion.

I'm always polite to my fellow teammates regardless of class, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't noticed considerably longer dungeons when Machinists are in the group.

IS there some sort of hard core only server that people who post these sorts of threads live on? Or do you think crazy hyperbole is the only way to speak. I was underwhelmed by AST and Mch at launch but " failure" what the hell?

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

Maybe they should add a support role to groups

At any rate better underpowered than overpowered I say.
WoW death knight anyone?

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I would honestly like it if Bards and Machinists were treated like this at least as far as duty finder goes. No changes in their gameplay, and you can ditch the role in 4 man dungeons, but doing 8 man content without a bard or machinist is kinda lame.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You might want to stop trying to dismiss people who are reacting as expected to bad implementation. There's several threads on the DPS forums that talk about this in detail, even with the trolls that will spew crap like "git gud".

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I have yet to see the argument where it is more viable for BRD/MCH to run around needlessly in a battlefield. People before 3.0 complained (yes this was a thing) that they wanted a more non-support stance to contribute DPS almost to the level of dedicated DPS. SE pretty much gave that, but they can't just give it to you while still having the freedom to move around. There has to be a higher skill cap to compensate for it. Thus, you have a casting stance now. If you want the casting stance out, you have to take the DPS boost away. You can say there are alternative ways, but ultimately it ends up sacrificing DPS that people on the ranged side have been asking for. More freedom of movement means less DPS.

If you don't care about pushing DPS, then by all means. You also have the right to not like it, but GB/WM makes sense and works well in it's implementation. BRD has some minor issues that do need adjusting, but its nothing considered broken or even a real big deal.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

This does not work in current party compositions. The way it is right now, Bards and MCH compete against each other for a spot (when before it was unanimously bard). What they need to do is divestize the two a little bit. The fact they both have GB and WM which are functionally the same skills do not help in this regard.

On a side note, melee dps also needs to take a look. The way it currently stands, a DRG is practically garunteed a spot if you're looking for optimal set ups. Battle litany is too good to pass, arguably the strongest single target dps and boosts BRD/MCH DPS (the two also being a mandatory slot for cutting edge progression)What they need to do is divestize the two a little bit. The fact they both have GB and WM which are functionally the same skills do not help in this regard. looking for optimal set ups. Battle litany is too good to pass, arguably the strongest single target dps and boosts BRD/MCH DPS (the two also being a mandatory slot for cutting edge progression)

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This is true. From playing both MCH and BRD, it definitely feels like the idea originated for MCH and then tacked onto BRD. I think both having the stance is fine, but how they take advantage of it is could of what set them apart.

I'll just blame the over-abundance of bad players on this game which give the new jobs such a bad image.
AST's who couldn't deal with the pre-buff potency numbers.
DRK's that suck at managing their MP / Cooldowns / who are generally bad at tanking.
MCH's that simply deal poor dps due to not wanting to get involved with the job they chose to play.

There's one thing all three have in common with the old jobs though;
Player skill making a much larger difference than the job itself.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I have yet to see the argument where it is more viable for BRD/MCH to run around needlessly in a battlefield.

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It's not about whether it's viable or not. It's about the feel of the gameplay and how it's been for 51 levels. Something as seemingly small as not being able to set up DoTs while running into position (something I've done while leveling both BRD and MCH) hampers my enjoyment of the job. The fact I'm waiting on cast bars while not being an actual caster job doesn't help.

This said, I don't have a problem with the changes on a concept level (I had a hunter in WoW during the transition from Mana as its resource to Focus, so I've been there already). My problem is where they were implemented, as it reeks of a shortcut taken by the developers. This is further aggravated by how clear WM is a copy-paste mechanic from MCH, and that's made worse by the knowledge MCH was designed with Gauss Barrel in mind, while BRD was not designed around WM.

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People before 3.0 complained (yes this was a thing) that they wanted a more non-support stance to contribute DPS almost to the level of dedicated DPS. SE pretty much gave that, but they can't just give it to you while still having the freedom to move around.

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I'll stop you right there because this is patently false. What people wanted was more DPS, and what they got was a stance tossed in as an attempted fix-all at lv52 that only kept BRD and MCH performing at exactly the same discrepancy to pure DPS as BRD had during ARR (meaning physical ranged DPS is exactly where it was relative to "pure" DPS jobs). There was no boost in DPS compared to other jobs; BRD (and MCH) is at exactly the same place it was before but is now required to use WM to be there.

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You also have the right to not like it, but GB/WM makes sense and works well in it's implementation.

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Proper implementation, specially in the case of BRD, would have been them redesigning the abilities with cast times where appropriate instead of giving everything a cast time. Perhaps adding a cooldown that lets cast bars fill while moving, or some interaction between the shots beyond River of Blood and Straighter Shot procs.

A redesign from the ground up means the only people having to adjust are the people who leveling BRD and played it all through ARR, whereas right now you have people who pick up archer and are essentially bait-and-switched at lv52. "You wanted instant casts and mobility. Hah hah fooled you, now you're a caster 52 levels into the job."

There's no opting out of WM because the BRD damage model is tuned around it, so it's not even a matter of wanting to push DPS. You HAVE to use it to be worthwhile at level cap.

a big fail to me is mechanic class >.>

I played it till lv34 and lost interesst completly.

pretty boring skill animations(if there are any) - like you was in option and had turn off graphic animations
a copycat of archer/bard
low damage output
very silly battle pose
flintlock pistols as weapons (the game is at magic and high technology age and we get such old weapons =.= )

No offense, but Living Dead is really... pointless IMO. Yes with WHM's Benediction, the DRK will alive again. But what about the other healer?

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Originally Posted by Destomius

I think you're ignorant and clearly don't know what you're talking about.

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Considering he isn't wrong, that would be you, kind sir.

A PLD or a WAR would take less damage, regardless. You have one more defensive that is based off of magic damage (Better hope there's more than just Alex bosses coming down the pipe in terms of magic damage), and not even that great to begin with. Vengence/Thrill/IB/Foresight reduces all damage regardless. Sentinel/Rampart/Imp. Conv do the same, while only three abilities, are more powerful (plus Hallowed). This doesn't even take into account the blocking of PLD or parry of DRK/WAR, because DRK is gud at majek rite?

Oh parry? Ok. Raw Intuition. And PLD takes the passive mitigation medal with blocks/block abilities. You do better AoE then them though, there is that one thing. You can AoE stuff, kudos there too.

Can it tank things? Sure it can...but it's nothing that a PLD/WAR couldn't do better.

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Originally Posted by Eul

No offense, but Living Dead is really... pointless IMO. Yes with WHM's Benediction, the DRK will alive again. But what about the other healer?

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you don't need to heal them to max health, but "only" to heal them for as much as they have in their HP pool. It's just a matter of "can you dish out 14-18k heals in 10 seconds ?". The 3 of them CAN do it.

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Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544

DRK has interesting ideas but still lacks PLD or WAR raid utility, is still inferior to other 2 tanks in their own domain.

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Stopped reading there. DRK is and always was fine as it is and fits perfectly within its domain.

The only thing I think SHOULD have been changed was being able to pocket Reprisal procs for when you actually want them (Since Reprisal is closer to a raid wide inner beast than Storms Path) and allowing Dark Art'd Dark Dance parry magical attacks for all-magic fights so you can proc Reprisal.

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Originally Posted by HorseBoots

Stopped reading there. DRK is and always was fine as it is and fits perfectly within its domain.

The only thing I think SHOULD have been changed was being able to pocket Reprisal procs for when you actually want them (Since Reprisal is closer to a raid wide inner beast than Storms Path) and allowing Dark Art'd Dark Dance parry magical attacks for all-magic fights so you can proc Reprisal.

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You should have continued reading, interesting comments from some players were posted after that (check p9 for instance).
Btw sorry to be critical with your beloved DRK, I was not saying it is not doing ok. But I'm confused with your comment, are you telling me DRK is not inferior to PLD as MT and not inferior to WAR as OT? Or you are just basing yourself on alex magic damage?

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Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544

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DRK is superior as a MT to paladin in some instances, such as A1 and A3. Their maintank dps is more of that than the paladin's while having identical cooldowns. DA Souleater also provides a bit of mitigation as well in the form of blood healing, and a DRK needs something to be hitting them to be able to benefit from blood price. The shorter cooldown on DA dark mind is also a godsend on mitigating spells more often, such as having a cooldown rotation for every single hyper compressed plasma (opposed to relying on their 1-hp cooldown) and for drainage in floor 3.

Warrior...is overpowered as an off tank so I won't even argue against that.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

DRK is superior as a MT to paladin in some instances, such as A1 and A3. Their maintank dps is more of that than the paladin's while having identical cooldowns. DA Souleater also provides a bit of mitigation as well in the form of blood healing, and a DRK needs something to be hitting them to be able to benefit from blood price. The shorter cooldown on DA dark mind is also a godsend on mitigating spells more often, such as having a cooldown rotation for every single hyper compressed plasma (opposed to relying on their 1-hp cooldown) and for drainage in floor 3.

Warrior...is overpowered as an off tank so I won't even argue against that.

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So you are basing yourself from a alex raid perspective right ? What about the rest?
Also, by justifying DRK being inferior to WAR as OT saying its OP is just admitting DRK is underpowered...

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

DRK is superior as a MT to paladin in some instances, such as A1 and A3.

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We are assuming there will be a balance of magic damage in this expansion. Considering the history of bosses in dungeons/primals/raids from ARR, DRK will be "superior" in like three of those bosses. Taking SE's past history with continuing trends...Well, we know where this is going.

Now DRK does get a nifty CD with "Magic only" stuck to it. The worst thing about this whole deal is basically making sure we have some sort of magic damage for them to mitigate, or the other two are already better. DRK's parry skills fail compared to a WAR and a PLD's block is broken when it comes to passive mitigation.

I wouldn't call it more of a niche, it's more like a crutch really, and it is what is holding the class back. They're nothing special without a specific fight.

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Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544

So you are basing yourself from a alex raid perspective right ? What about the rest?
Also, by justifying DRK being inferior to WAR as OT saying its OP is just admitting DRK is underpowered...

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The rest is honestly negligible that it doesn't really matter much if you want to talk class balance. It'd still apply anyway; a DRK is still stronger than a PLD from a maintank dps perspective, which helps in meeting checks. A PLD is still very well capable of tanking the boss and still meeting dps checks with their own contribution.

And a PLD fails at offtanking compared to a warrior too.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

We are assuming there will be a balance of magic damage in this expansion. Considering the history of bosses in dungeons/primals/raids from ARR, DRK will be "superior" in like three of those bosses. Taking SE's past history with continuing trends...Well, we know where this is going.

Now DRK does get a nifty CD with "Magic only" stuck to it. The worst thing about this whole deal is basically making sure we have some sort of magic damage for them to mitigate, or the other two are already better. DRK's parry skills fail compared to a WAR and a PLD's block is broken when it comes to passive mitigation.

I wouldn't call it more of a niche, it's more like a crutch really, and it is what is holding the class back. They're nothing special without a specific fight.

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That's their perk. Outside of that they also have better maintank dps too. Even without it they'd just use living dead (which is their equivalent of hg/holmy). They also have dark dance which is just as reliable as paladin's buulwacky for mitigation physical hits on a shorter cooldown. They both have rampart/dark skin and senile/dark wall which are functionally exactly the same

They share gear though, so I suppose the other perspective is that you can interchange the two jobs depending on what you need.

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Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544

DRK has interesting ideas but still lacks PLD or WAR raid utility, is still inferior to other 2 tanks in their own domains (MT or OT and even survivability) and is, arguably, bad designed (darkside, parry based tank)

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O_O DRK is awesome! Part of the reason A3S was cleared so fast was because of DRK's superior dps output to PLD.

Also DRK has the best mitigation for magic damage which is really useful in Alexander.

I personally prefer having a DRK over a PLD, War is still king for OT though.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That's their perk.

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It is. What I am saying is: Let's see if it is a good perk or not based on the content. I'm just going by history, and there were almost no magical fights then. I really don't see giving DRK one ability changing that mechanic much, otherwise no one would use PLD.

It's all well and good that a DRK can DPS better, but their physical cooldowns suck when compared to a PLD and their blocks. DPS means nothing when you're dead, as the saying goes...

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Originally Posted by Asierid

It is. What I am saying is: Let's see if it is a good perk or not based on the content. I'm just going by history, and there were almost no magical fights then

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T11, T12, T13 had a good chunk of magical damage thrown at our faces (hello goons o/ ), and even though they're irrelevant in the matter PLD vs DRK as they're not hard fights, Leviatan (MT perspective), ifrit and Ramuh have quite a few magical attacks (100% magical fight for Ramuh)

If we're going by raids only to compare, we have (major damage output) :

physical : T1, T4, T5, T7 (on tanks), T6, T9, T10, T11 (tanks)
magical : T2, T7 (on party), T8, T11 (party), T12, T13

pretty much equal imo

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Originally Posted by Asierid

It is. What I am saying is: Let's see if it is a good perk or not based on the content. I'm just going by history, and there were almost no magical fights then. I really don't see giving DRK one ability changing that mechanic much, otherwise no one would use PLD.

It's all well and good that a DRK can DPS better, but their physical cooldowns suck when compared to a PLD and their blocks. DPS means nothing when you're dead, as the saying goes...

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Wat. FCoB was filled to the brim with magic damage and that's why drg needed a magic defense buff.

They also have the same amount of cooldown that affect physical attacks as paladin, unless you want to consider bulwuck to be a reliable one. DA'd soul eater also heals for quite a bit too that it's another form of mitigation.

You're also focusing too much on one aspect. Both tanks have the tools to survive what gets thrown at them, both physical and magical. DRK pulls more dps while maintanking, while PLD has more party survivability through divine veil, stinkskin and protect to ease on healer mana.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

stinkskin

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LOL, When I saw this I laughed so hard with the typo (or was intentional? :x).

Stinkskin new lvl 60 WHM spell. Stinkskin makes all mobs run away with fear debuff on hit and leaving a poison dot with 500 potency during 15s. ( I know is overpowered but is intentional for the joke :p)

DRK can do every single fight in this game fine. Could a PLD/WAR do certain fights better yeah they could, but a DRK with proper CD rotations can do them sometimes just as well. Where DRK shines is magic based damage. if there is a magic based tank buster DRK can have that covered every time with Dark Mind where the other two have to blow one of their all damage CD's. This lets the DRK use their all damage CD's at other times reducing the stress on the rest of the party. I do think DRK needs a little bit of a buff maybe fix Dark Dance and possibly reduce shadow walls CD but it really is fine and has cut its own place out.

TL:DR PLD/WAR have a very slight advantage if any in non-magic fights where as DRK has a large advantage in magic based fights and higher DPS than PLD on top of that. If you dont believe me give me a fight where you think DRK would fail and i will tell you a CD rotation that will work.

Before knowing how the cards worked, I thought there might be a way to "force" certain results essentially making them heal/support. I wondered if SE envisioned them as not as good as whm/sch but provide tp/mp so that brd/mch is not required for 8man

Yeah, I agree, DRK is a badly implemented job. That must be why the world first A4S clear had a DRK tank.


So what if you have to work harder to play the job effectively? I see that as a good thing; it keeps me on my toes. If you wanna play a tank that requires much less effort, that's what PLD is for.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Yeah, I agree, DRK is a badly implemented job. That must be why the world first A4S clear had a DRK tank.

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Bonus demerits for not paying attention in class. No one is arguing that Dark Knight has the best magic mitigation of all the tanks, so using Alexander as an example is just a means of intentionally weighting your arguments. The argument is whether or not Dark Knight can hold up as equally in a physically based fight, and the answer is not as straightforward.

Personally, I have no real issues healing a Paladin, Warrior or a Dark Knight in just about any current content. That being said, I'd be a fool to ignore the differences between the three. It's a fact that Dark Knight takes heavier damage than a Paladin, and has fewer mitigation options than a Warrior. Later raids may require a bigger emphasis on physical damage as opposed to magic, which might push Dark Knight out of favor.

I mean, let's face it... Living Dead is an awful skill, no matter how much you try and play it up.

I'm not going to say Dark Knight is in any danger right now, but it will all depend on future content to see whether or not their lack of mitigation skills will lead to a downfall.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

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Well yeah, of course they're gonna take heavier damage as they don't have a shield, but the higher skill ceiling required to play DRK and WAR makes them much more versatile tanks (DRK MT and WAR OT) than a standard PLD and WAR combo (unless you like having double WAR, but that's a bit redundant IMO). Sure, the PLD is the undisputed king of steady mitigation. That's their intended purpose, but they're also more limited as to what they can do as a result, especially in the damage department. Also, on top of being the best magic-based tanks, their AoE capabilities are absolutely wonderful.

I fail to see their lack of mitigation skills. Dark Dance is on a 60 second cooldown, yeah, it's not a very strong CD, but you can pair it up with something else, like Foresight. Shadowskin is your basic Rampart, and its low cool down makes it a very steady skill to rely on. Bloodbath already benefits from Darkside, and then you got Shadow Wall and Convalescence. Yes, WARs have MORE cooldowns, but WAR cooldowns generally require you to combine some in order to be more effective. For example, you'd be a full to use Thrill of Battle or Foresight by themselves.

As for Living Dead, I think it's not such a bad skill. I see it like this: Holmgang has a 6 second duration, but the 1 HP can occur at any point, meaning you can have 2 seconds left and have to heal the WAR in 1 second or they're dead. It also has the risk of being used when you're scared and not having your HP reduced to 1 within 6 seconds means you essentially wasted your skill, and not getting to 1 HP and taking AoE damage as a result of not being able to move can be a very embarrassing experience. Living Dead has a longer duration, allowing full 10 seconds of safety, and then resetting back to 10 seconds when fatal damage is taken. The main fault with Living Dead is that it requires a certain degree of communication with your healer. Topping off the tank as soon as they enter Walking Dead wastes the seconds you had remaining under invulnerability, and it works wonders with benediction, allowing you a full 9 seconds of being invincible. I will agree that the skill is more stressful without a WHM in the party. But it's also a very clutch skill and its longer margin of error than Holmgang and the timer resetting back to 10 seconds when you take fatal damage have allowed me to finish off a boss during those very annoying 2% or 1% HP moments when everyone else in the party is dead, and preventing a wipe during that magic 1% HP pixels just feels amazing.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

Better to be under-powered on launch than over-powered, like Ninja was.

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This is where I disagree. Ninja is extremely popular from what I see within my group of friends and those I play with. I've been playing MMO's for over 10yrs (I know I'm a young'n right? ;D) and the general idea of new jobs were always, "Wait for the nerfs to come out," not "Wait for it to get buffed."

Rolling out an underpowered class throws away all the excitement and interest, which is the last thing you want for a new shiny product. I can only speak about MCH in this case, but having played 1.0, participated in the survey, and was one of the voices crying out for the "gun class," I strongly attest to this class being mishandled. It's getting better, for sure, but overall it's not the class I think many expected.

For those that played FFXI, I view MCH as Corsair with all of its limitations and none of the fun. They took the fun mini-buff game (which made corsair a blast to play) and half-hazardly threw it on a healer... a healer who should be spending their attention to healing is now drawing cards XD. Yet, we kept all the RNG. DPS is riddled with RNG already, and acceptably so with crit hits. However, RNG just to play the class? RNG is not fun. Sure, it can be exciting and rewarding to get that one big hit that's dependent on crits; yet, you're holding out with RNG just for our basic moves?

With MCH I want to come out blazing! Shooting crazy bullets, pistol whipping, duel-wielding, and overall being a major badass! You know, like the preview:

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...FXIV/gif-2.gif

Or at the very least, give us the same swag as another techy gunfighter from the FF series
http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj78ow7AFq1qbs6nk.gif

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

This is where I disagree. Ninja is extremely popular from what I see within my group of friends and those I play with. I've been playing MMO's for over 10yrs (I know I'm a young'n right? ;D) and the general idea of new jobs were always, "Wait for the nerfs to come out," not "Wait for it to get buffed."

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So you think that's better than the possibility that a player spends time and esoterics on a job, only to see it nerfed to the point they no longer find it fun?

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Originally Posted by Destomius

So you think that's better than the possibility that a player spends time and esoterics on a job, only to see it nerfed to the point they no longer find it fun?

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You'd have to do something drastic like changing their playstyle or removing utilities for it to be that big. You could also flip it around...the class gets a buffed and they suddenly want to change after spending esotarics on their first class.

Yes at launch the jobs were a mess and pretty much being fixed now your point?

I agree that my only problem with MCH is that it feels like a Bard clone. Ammo should have been much more than a bandaid for our RNG. It should have been more like Dark Arts for DRK, giving different bonus abilities for different attacks, allowing us to support the party more though buffs and debuffs. Our only really "needed" utility that's unique to us (and Bard) is the MP/TP regen. Ninja also bring vulnerability (though it's nice that it stacks with MCH) and I have yet to really see a scenario where that 5% damage reduction makes a difference.

Support in this game is unfortunately half-assed. A good support class makes up for its loss of dps at all times through things like party buffs or enemy debuffs instead of one or two abilities that are used only in the highest content (and fairly useless in anything else).

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

you don't need to heal them to max health, but "only" to heal them for as much as they have in their HP pool. It's just a matter of "can you dish out 14-18k heals in 10 seconds ?". The 3 of them CAN do it.

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I doubt other can catch up. What if the DRK get banged by mobs? 3 times Lustrate? Nope, won't catch up. Spam Benefit 2 and emergency click heal? Nope, won't catch up too.

The three jobs are fun for what they are. They did a good job of laying out the foundations and, over time, will only make them better. The issues surrounding them and all being under-powered initially is an example of a fault that surrounds many creators of anything. They try to innovate within archaic structuring. Specifically, I'm referring to trying to be different while maintaining a STRICT holy trinity formula. They want jobs to feel different, but they refuse to break the trinity formula. To their credit, in order to do that, it'd require a huge movement to a near total restructuring of the combat system, which isn't exactly feasible at this stage of the game.

When you follow a narrow trinity formula and you base combat difficulty around it, innovation behind what you can do to make jobs feel different gets less and less for the more jobs you design. Eventually, you create an identity crisis like what BRD and MCH had (and will continue to have as time goes on). AST suffered this as well, because devs felt their buffs to be powerful enough to override a need for stronger healing proficiency. Objectively, that implies they thought that in order to be equal in healing to SCH and WHM, AST should do... less... healing... because they get more variety of buffs that don't heal... yeah, good one.

Balance is the name of the game when you have a trinity style format. The more you try to break away from it, the more you fear the potential of things like temporary "support" skills/spells to be overpowered (they really aren't in most cases) and the less you feel said job should do regarding their actual role in the trinity. It's an unfortunate reality when it comes to this, but it always happens, without fail. Balance will come over time, and that's really the main saving grace, as we've all seen by example with the new trio of jobs (which will continue to be further improved upon).

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I agree that my only problem with MCH is that it feels like a Bard clone. Ammo should have been much more than a bandaid for our RNG. It should have been more like Dark Arts for DRK, giving different bonus abilities for different attacks

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I'd rather see ammo become a resource that gates certain shots. Basically a resource that starts at full and slowly regenerates over time, with certain attacks speeding the recovery of ammo or generating ammo units upon use. Ammo would thus become a pacing mechanism for the job while making it more than just free potency + RNG nullifier.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

They try to innovate within archaic structuring. Specifically, I'm referring to trying to be different while maintaining a STRICT holy trinity formula. They want jobs to feel different, but they refuse to break the trinity formula.

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The problem is more connected to self-imposed limitations rather than any flaw of the trinity. For example, you don't have varying resources like Rage or Energy or Combo Points or Runic Power or Runes or Chi units or Soul Embers or Fulmination Stacks because every job has to have TP and MP as resources. Blood of the Dragon is a clear indication of this, since it could have easily been turned into a resource bar for DRG but was instead implemented as a timer with modifiers.

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Eventually, you create an identity crisis like what BRD and MCH had (and will continue to have as time goes on).

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You're pointing the finger at the wrong thing. The devs didn't aim to make BRD and MCH mechanically diverse. If that had been the case, MCH would have been designed with cast times from the ground up and BRD would have remained as it was in ARR with a couple of new tools added to its arsenal (thus WM and GB wouldn't exist; they simply wouldn't be needed by either job).

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AST suffered this as well, because devs felt their buffs to be powerful enough to override a need for stronger healing proficiency. Objectively, that implies they thought that in order to be equal in healing to SCH and WHM, AST should do... less... healing... because they get more variety of buffs that don't heal... yeah, good one.

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That doesn't really have anything to do with the trinity. This was a design choice that simply didn't pan out when launched (granted, I could have told you that an RNG mechanic as part of the kit of a healer was gonna be lackluster; it's sort of why it didn't even cross my mind when I suggested Astrologist a long time ago).

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In short, you're barking up the wrong tree. The trinity doesn't have anything to do with any similarities between the new jobs and the old jobs. Those are the result of other things.