Overreaction to Astrologian buff.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

Implying ET is usefull , you are just gimping yourself using it , due to the risk of overhealing, and guess what , there is no difference between 1.1k shield and 1.1k extra heal its same effective HP , so why should you use ET in the first place since it adds nothing at all, criting adlo with ET is teribad, sure 12k crit ohoo big numbers but >50% of that is a huge overheal unless you use it on some1 who is dying but that happens only and only if you dont do your job.

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You're forgetting that effective HPs aren't synonymous with actual HPs. There are situations where you need to restore HP between shielding. Hence ET+Succor. I didn't think that this required explanation.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Probably because WHM have some of the best sustained healing+mana recovery tools while AST has hot garbage for mana recovery (and can go OoM quickly) and their buffs are RNG-based, meaning they could do nothing beneficial for and entire raid encounter.

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Manarecovery? Astro has almost the same mana recovery as a WHM.
Astro has a skill that reduces aggro and restores MP.
WHM has a skill that reduces aggro and restores MP.

The only difference is that Assize restores 10% MP to WHM. Which is roughly 1.2k MP. Astro's decreased MP consumption on all of their spells more than makes up for that extra 1.2k.

Next excuse please.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

snip.

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Yes from what my whm partner said the whm mp problems are not AS bad as pre 3.0 where you only had shroud but its not great by any means assize is no aetherflow, but thats ok they have very strong heals to make up for it. RNG is NOT ONLY luck its mathematics, if you have a coin and you roll it , you have 50% -50% for each side well next roll is gonna be 75%-25% and so on same as with the cards the more spires you draw the higher chanes for a balance you have you are bound to draw it sooner or later. Now look at a.benefic 66% mp cost of adlo with higher potency instant cast and 30% higher base shield on top of the higher potency due to the sect bonus? let me guess you find that balanced and fair ofc ,well its not its not fair to scholars. Except lustrate that is an ability so you cant buff it , tell me what huge heals does a scholar have? adlo, that is their signature move but now its robbed and given to astrologians same with cure 2.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

All we want is dissipation fixed,

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Agreed, would like to see either a higher healing potency, the buff affecting both healing and attack magic potency, and/or Dissipation resetting all Aetherflow / emergency cooldowns. A tiny Refresh effect might be nice too, though I'd take that as icing.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

Emergency tactics being less useless

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I think it would be nice of ET halved the MP cost of the spell. As it stands right now, I don't use ET since Lustrate does ET + Adlo at less opportunity cost on MP and faster and Indomitability is has a similar thought for ET + Succor. I only really use ET in dire situations where I'm outta Aetherflow charges.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

and Embrace the same way it was , 300 potency like the tooltip says, is that much to ask?

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Just so you know, even with Fairy's reduced potency, SCH maintains the highest unbuffed Potency / GCD on a single target.

Potency / GCD

• Diurnal AST - 537 Potency / GCD
• Nocturnal AST - 420 Potency / GCD
• Scholar - 566 Potency / GCD
• White Mage - 525 Potency / GCD

This is assuming that Fairy is about 200 Potency / cast.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

we dont ask for super shields op mana regeneration , more aggro control or what not like astrologians.

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I can assure you the people who are asking for this blindly don't know what it means to balance things properly.

Though as it stands right now, SCH pretty much has all of those in spades due to the nature of their design.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Just so you know, even with Fairy's reduced potency, SCH maintains the highest unbuffed Potency / GCD on a single target.
This is assuming that Fairy is about 200 Potency / cast.
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You have to take note that embrace is on a 3 second cooldown and not 2.5 and is not affected by spell speed (a reason why spsp is terrible on scholars) it will lag behind after a few casts, the potency is initially higher but it falls behind hard.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Manarecovery? Astro has almost the same mana recovery as a WHM.
Astro has a skill that reduces aggro and restores MP.
WHM has a skill that reduces aggro and restores MP.

The only difference is that Assize restores 10% MP to WHM. Which is roughly 1.2k MP. Astro's decreased MP consumption on all of their spells more than makes up for that extra 1.2k.

Next excuse please.

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/facepalm

1. AST's mana restoring ability does NOT reduce aggro. It reduces aggro generation while it's active. Any aggro you have at the time is not lessened. Also, Assize is AMAZING in so many ways. The only other mana recovery tool AST has it to hope to get an Ewer in their draw and hope they don't have a RRed card that they don't want to lose at that moment as well.

2. If you're not going to look at the full packages of both classes, don't even bother trying to discuss them. WHM has tools that AST simply does NOT, including a bubble that they don't need to channel, TWO instant healing abilities that restore huge amounts of HP (one is a FULL heal and the other is a 700 potency heal), an AoE that's a heal, nuke and 10% MP restoration all in one, Divine Seal which will increase ALL healing magic done by 30% INCLUDING HoTs (unlike Synastry which only increases spell-based healing), and has access to E4E and Virus. I'm sure there's even more but I'm just briefly listing some of the highlights that WHM has that AST doesn't.

Seriously, take a good hard look at the FULL toolkit of both classes and you'll see that AST doesn't have even half the toys WHM does, and all for card buffs that can possibly do literally nothing but give you the same worthless card 10+ times in a row, no matter how many damn times you shuffle the f**ker... (I hate the Spear so much...)

People need to stop making these complaints until they've actually played AST at 60. I've dual mained AST and SCH and, even with the buffs, SCH is still far more reliable when it comes to emergency healing, mana recovery, and DPS.

If what the devs said is true and they're not factoring healer DPS capability into the mix, then SCH will remain head and shoulders above AST, even in adding DPS to the encounter...

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Manarecovery? Astro has almost the same mana recovery as a WHM.
Astro has a skill that reduces aggro and restores MP.
WHM has a skill that reduces aggro and restores MP.

The only difference is that Assize restores 10% MP to WHM. Which is roughly 1.2k MP. Astro's decreased MP consumption on all of their spells more than makes up for that extra 1.2k.

Next excuse please.

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Uh... no.
Shroud of Saints 'dump' enmity generated, Luminiferous Aether reduces enmity generation. Two totally different functions, and former is definitely better.
Assize doesn't just give you 10% MP back; it acts as a free medica (1.4k MP). So technically you're earning 2.7k~ MP with 1 skill. Also, I don't think you'll even manage to save 1.2k with Lightspeed as you said. On top of which Assize is 90s CD compared to 150s for Lightspeed.

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

You have to take note that embrace is on a 3 second cooldown and not 2.5 and is not affected by spell speed (a reason why spsp is terrible on scholars) it will lag behind after a few casts, the potency is initially higher but it falls behind hard.

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That potency I listed already compensate for the fact Embrace runs on a 3s cooldown and adjusted to meet on average how often it'll cure per 2.5s.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

The only difference is that Assize restores 10% MP to WHM. Which is roughly 1.2k MP. Astro's decreased MP consumption on all of their spells more than makes up for that extra 1.2k.

Next excuse please.

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In order for Lightspeed to "save" the AST 1.2K Mana, they would need to cast 4.8K worth of MP in 4 GCDs. Using four Helios' in a row is only 4,244 MP and if you need four Helios' to mend a party to full, you have bigger things to worry about.

And there's a fundamental difference between "saving" MP and regaining MP. Saving requires you to use the MP in order to get the discount (and its not always necessary to be spending that much MP). Reganing MP is just that with no strings attached and is fundamentally better.

Wait so Ast heals better than Whms now? Lol did they forget they had whm on this game? So now Ast can heal better than a whm and buff the party... wow...

Well sch has a fairy and can stance dance like James Brown, they ain't worried lol. Poor whm, back to the bench with you. Lmao

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

Now look at a.benefic 66% mp cost of adlo with higher potency instant cast and 30% higher base shield on top of the higher potency due to the sect bonus?

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it's 250 base potency -not 300, so the shield is 341 potency which is 14% more potent than adloquium. The total heal is the same. And the mp costs is lower only because astro has less mp over the fight. Aetherflow allow scholar to have a lot more mp to use in heals than Astros, so it need to have cheaper heals to compensate. And this is also because they have no fairy.

1. I said "natural" lowered MP cost, not with "lightspeed"
Both Benefic and Benefic II cost LESS MP to cast than the WHM's Cure and Cure II.

Something that Astro's love to overlook. But hey, Astro's need more MP recovery to go along with their decreased MP cost of skills WITHOUT Lightspeed.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

Wait so Ast heals better than Whms now? Lol did they forget they had whm on this game? So now Ast can heal better than a whm and buff the party... wow...

Well sch has a fairy and can stance dance like James Brown, they ain't worried lol. Poor whm, back to the bench with you. Lmao

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Don't believe everything you read.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

1. I said "natural" lowered MP cost, not with "lightspeed"
Both Benefic and Benefic II cost LESS MP to cast than the WHM's Cure and Cure II.

Something that Astro's love to overlook. But hey, Astro's need more MP recovery to go along with their decreased MP cost of skills WITHOUT Lightspeed.

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WHM gets free cure 2 and 3.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

1. I said "natural" lowered MP cost, not with "lightspeed"
Both Benefic and Benefic II cost LESS MP to cast than the WHM's Cure and Cure II.

Something that Astro's love to overlook. But hey, Astro's need more MP recovery to go along with their decreased MP cost of skills WITHOUT Lightspeed.

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My mistake, I thought you were trying to compare a cooldown to another cooldown.

I should take some time to theorycraft average MP consumption just to see. This post has gotten me curious how to do that. /think

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Originally Posted by DawnSolaria

WHM gets free cure 2 and 3.

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They actually get a half cost Cure III, though it should be rarely utilized to begin with. The Freecast Cure II is definitely worth noting though, as is the highly MP efficient Regen.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

but just because astro's were left out of world firsts this time round

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World first A1s had an AST.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Don't believe everything you read.

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Trust me I was half joking. I have whm 60 sch 58 and ast30 still so my final judgment hasn't came yet till they are all at 60. But atm Whms shouldn't be worried I feel cause of all the emergency heals alone IMHO so far. Whm to me has always been the best healer to dig the party out of a bad situation.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Manarecovery? Astro has almost the same mana recovery as a WHM.
Astro has a skill that reduces aggro and restores MP.
WHM has a skill that reduces aggro and restores MP.

The only difference is that Assize restores 10% MP to WHM. Which is roughly 1.2k MP. Astro's decreased MP consumption on all of their spells more than makes up for that extra 1.2k.

Next excuse please.

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There's a lot of stupid bullshit in this thread, but this comment really made me facepalm.

Just a heads up-- Assize is approximately 1,200 mana per cast and it has a 90 second cooldown.

Savage fights generally last anywhere from 8 min 30s to 10mins.

8min30s is 510 seconds which means you are casting Assize approximately 5.6 times in a 8min30s battle, which comes out to be approximately 6,800 mana.

That is about 14 free cure 1s which have a 15% chance to proc a cure II to save even more fucking mana.

Wait. It gets better.

Assize saves even more mana because it also functions as a 300 potency aoe heal meaning if you ever use that in place of, lets say, a medica, it saves an additional 600-1,200 mana depending on enhanced medica trait per cast, which could potentially come out to a net gain of approximately 13,500 mana not including free cure IIs gained from spending this FREE MANA on cure 1s OR the mana regen you experience when spending a lifetime using this 13,500+ mana, which is more than an entire mana bar if assize is returning 1,200 mana (that's a 12,000 mana pool).

Then let's keep in mind that WHM's skills all had WAY higher potency, they had an atrocious amount of control over a fight compared to AST due to whm actually having more emergency cooldowns than one, including two emergency and off gcd heals that cost no mana and are both the highest potency heals in the game, having a 20y range AOE heal, and about a million other things.

Stop comparing SINGLE SKILLS when classes have entire toolsets that can raise efficiency on a single skill exponentially. Look at a skill and thensee how that skill benefits a class AS A WHOLE before you make stupid remarks like this.

The very fact that Tetragrammaton, Medica II, and Benediction exist will make raids take WHMs as a viable option still.

More bullshit please.

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Originally Posted by demonette

World first A1s had an AST.

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Nope. At all.

Hi there, I play both sch and ast.

SCH's..... do not fear. AST will not be taking your spot anytime soon. Also ET is great! its a catch up move much like
indom. As a matter of fact indom+ET succor might just save your raid group. Its what SCH was missing at 50. If adloq crits
you get a 3xcrit.

Having said that deployment tactics is a lil lame atm, but maybe if we get a new buff at next level cap raise that is
also passed around also, that would make it a muuuuch better. Dissipation is fine, due to getting atherflow stacks,
but I wish it wouldnt prevent resummoning. I don't mind having to swift cast another and spend the mp.
If anything, my only real complaint is fairy heal, and that is only because it is curing for the same amount even though
people have higher HPmax.

Thats it though. Sch got what was missing and that was aoe catch up.

Ast is finally back on track to being useful. it has a nice healing CD. Buffs that are noticable now. and potencies that allow
it to actually heal comparably to other healers. Now I will admit having a larger shield is a bit odd, but total potencies are
almost the same, and adloq can crit. I think giving a larger shield is justified, since a large part of the AST kit is based on
extending duration of buffs, which help regens, but does little for shields.

ummmm spear? xD

But those are my thoughts, SCH is great and got what was missing, fairy is my only complaint.

AST is comparable :)

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Originally Posted by Volsung

Also ET is great! its a catch up move much like
indom. As a matter of fact indom+ET succor might just save your raid group. Its what SCH was missing at 50. If adloq crits
you get a 3xcrit.
)

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Again xD I like the AST buffs, I just don't want Dissipation to stay shackled like it is for "balance"

Emergency Tactics is something you use when your shield is already up. Therefore its Adlo, Emergency Tactics, Adlo. or Succor, Emergency Tactics, Succor. You could do it the other way around, but whats the point? Your shields are additional health bars. Only when you do not need the shielding power (because its already on them) is ET useful.

I actually find Deployment tactics WONDERFUL. Its a Crit adlo spreader. xD or a oh shit YOU THERE WARRIOR. BE MY GALVANIZE SLAVE D::: <3

Fairy agreed, but maybe it will change as our mind stacks.
Just a different perspective. xD

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Originally Posted by demonette

World first A1s had an AST.

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On what planet?

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Originally Posted by DawnSolaria

Baseline: WHM/SCH are not dead, ASTs are simply brought on par on the healing front with other two healers.

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Exactly, I'm happy for my AST friends! You come heal with old Rodriguez and I'll welcome you with open arms.

Jesus...can't we put these stupid threads to bed now. Astrologian was buffed so the issue is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Jesus...can't we put these stupid threads to bed now. Astrologian was buffed so the issue is pointless.

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I'll teach you the secret technique for allowing threads to die when you no longer wish to use them.

Ready?

Stop posting.

I guess I'm not the only one who is surprised by the overreaction and not really part of the group, and I am a WHM for main class.

However, I also play SCH and AST too. I'm in the process of leveling SCH. So depending what people need, I can switch between healers accordingly. Like it or not, AST was -horrible- for speedruns and the high raid end group. These buffs were sorely needed. I've enjoyed AST a lot more with the new changes and I welcome future Astrologians in future bro heal fists.