PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

@Xeno

You bring up a lot of points that I am glad somebody is finally going in to.

For starters, the statement about the content itself playing a huge part of the tank balance meta is imo incredibly important. The content should never overtly favor one tank's niche over the others, every encounter needs to be balanced around having every tank ( or any other job really) shine in certain aspects of the fight but be weaker in others, not a for X fight make sure to bring Y tank scenario.

The other point I agree with is equitability in the value of the differences between the tanks, which imo is very much not the case right now.

The reworking of debuffs for the tank jobs is an interesting idea and one I could get behind if done properly. What exactly did you have in mind for the effects for Rend Mind and Rend Weapon?

Why do I get this funny feeling that the 2nd set of Alexander Raids is going to offer extreme physical damage and then the bandwagon is going to jump back to PLD and shelltron.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

A warrior can have IB and vengeance up for each one (pop it at the start of the first cast, and itll be up half way through the second, and again near the end of the third cast) for 20%/30% reduction---then pop your parry buff (available for each buster) and both self heals (available for each buster). Each time the boss also had a -10% buff on.

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That's always, like, always, been one of the things that set pld and war apart though. One can mitigate bigger numbers, so long as their CD's last, the other mitigates less, but can do so with greater frequency. It's quality vs quantity. The example you gave, tends to favor WAR more, but there have been, and will again be, fights that favor plds and their big number mitigation. T13 pre echo would be a good example. Doable with war MT? I haven't personally seen it, since I've never actually heard of anyone doing it that way, but I assume so. But there's no question it would have been harder/riskier.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Actually it's the inability to hold hate off the increased DPS that DPS puts out while in SWo, while DRK and WAR can hold hate outside of their tank stance. Hate generation needs to be heighten considerably which in turn would allow for us to spam RA more. Having to be in Shield Oath and consistently using RoH instead of RA cuts damage back by a good chunk. Increase in general damage however wouldn't be so bad.

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Personally I have no issues holding hate with Sword Oath. If you lose hate on pull start with a Shield Oath thru. at least one Rage of Halone combo then swap over and go all out. If you're using Royal Authority exclusively while trying to MT in Sword Oath you're not going to be able to keep control - every third or fourth combo toss Rage of Halone. I use STR & Sword Oath for Alexander Normal (1-3), Bismark EX, and for large portions of Ravana EX. Obviously Sword Oath is not really going to be useful in Savage until people get higher gear that allows for it.

Overall my view point is this - Paladin needs a boost of ~7% actual flat output on it's DPS - giving Sword a 5% boost seems fair to me & adding a modifier or status buff to the DPS combo would at least make it competitive damage wise.

Favor-ability due to surviving is fine. I get that one tank might be more capable of tanking one fight over another. This has pretty much been the status quo on MMO's since they became popular.

Let's take for example my current raiding group. The group wants me to tank, but my partner tank is all in on DRK. He loves it. I can bring PLD, and by the time we get there we can probably clear it. I'm not disputing that.

However, they want me to go WAR to have access to slashing debuffs and Storm's Path. Paladin doesn't really bring anything to the table that rivals these. I state again that I don't want PLD to instantly have these abilities, but I feel that they do need something that would rival it to give groups a reason to bring that PLD OT with a DRK MT.

If someone is bringing DRK or PLD then your pretty much gonna have to break out WAR or your just throwing away great utility for the entire raid.

That's the biggest problem. Any group with a brain will want a WAR so it's a fixed job slot. The 2nd tank can be any of the 3. Giving one tank the best burst DPS, best utility debuff and best offensive debuff was a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Let's call this game, "Final Fantasy XIV: DPS Forever".

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This actually has been a trend with a lot of MMOs. I saw the same thing in The Secret World. The reasoning behind it is just due to the way game mechanics are handled. Support and Survivability is only so useful. On both you will eventually hit a wall-- either support abilities won't be needed or Survivability becomes fairly simple, so there's no point in stacking more of it. Same with healing. DPS, however, will ALWAYS be useful because more dps means faster kill times, less time spent healing or trying to survive, until the point that bosses are being dropped in one it (which will never happen). That's why everyone is so keen on dps. You can be the most robust tank in the world, but if another job can get it done just as well, but also provide more dps beyond that, they're automatically considered more useful. It's the same with the "Support" dps. In The Secret World it got to a point where everyone wanted just leech healers because they were the only healers who could heal and still deal damage. It made the other two healing weapons obsolete. It's probably the biggest flaw in the holy trinity.

Every week due to a new piece of gear being unlocked, all these complaints are gonna be made more and more moot. lol

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Originally Posted by Ronzeru

Every week due to a new piece of gear being unlocked, all these complaints are gonna be made more and more moot. lol

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Why? DRK and WAR are getting the same upgrades. Yes, for current content the points will lose potency but they will still be relevant.

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Giving one tank the best burst DPS, best utility debuff and best offensive debuff was a mistake.

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I think SE needs to ask themselves (or player base) what roles each of these tanks they want. Right now WAR is set as OT and flavor of content dictates MT.

That shouldn't be the case. Ideally, any of the three should be good being Mt or OT in any combo

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Why? DRK and WAR are getting the same upgrades. Yes, for current content the points will lose potency but they will still be relevant.

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You speak my language with every post.

Paladin:
Flash 100 Potency Attack.

Dark Knight
Souleater
Grit Effect: Absorbs 200, 100% of damage dealt as HP.

Abyssal Drain now does 100% damage done to received health without Dark Arts.

Unleashed Removed, and changed to another skill, we can just cross-class flash now.

Or make Unleashed cooler, give it an AOE dot or something.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Paladin:
Flash 100 Potency Attack.

Dark Knight
Souleater
Grit Effect: Absorbs 200, 100% of damage dealt as HP.

Abyssal Drain now does 100% damage done to received health without Dark Arts.

Unleashed Removed, and changed to another skill, we can just cross-class flash now.

Or make Unleashed cooler, give it an AOE dot or something.

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Flash is fine. Although I wish it had default blind effect so WAR/DRK had more reason to cross class it.

Shield swipe should give PLD a shield spikes effect for 15s. Blocked attacks return 100 potency to the attacker (or 50/75/100 buckler/kite/tower). Seems like a more appropriate way to give the PLD AoE dmg and give shield swipe some purpose.

I'll agree that Unleash/Abyssal is very redundant. We only really need one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Ronzeru

Every week due to a new piece of gear being unlocked, all these complaints are gonna be made more and more moot. lol

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Hardly. Every week the scaling of the better dps on Dark and War will mean more, and any mitigation 'concerns' they had would be made more and more irrelevant.

The main advantage of a paladin is mitigation (or so your told?) but people are clearing fine without them. Healers will HEAL more in the coming weeks, all tanks will have more hp and defenses, and dps will increase proportional to what they are at now. So as people clear and get gear, war and dark will have ----more--- of an advantage over a paladin. Paladins were progression tanks quote un quote for a reason, save you dont need them for progression anymore cause A) magic damage B) dps checks.

Actually the increase to PLD DPS will make it easier to hold hate in Sword Oath due to enmity multipliers, eventually allowing us to use Royal Authority more and increase damage dramatically. Especially when combined with a Ninja using Shadewalker/Smoke Screen. The advantages to using PLD over DRK are A) Simple gameplay, B) Physical Mitigation, C) Support abilities(Cover/Clemency/Stoneskin/Silence/STR down), and D) Hallowed Ground.

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Originally Posted by Disc

Actually the increase to PLD DPS will make it easier to hold hate in Sword Oath due to enmity multipliers, eventually allowing us to use Royal Authority more and increase damage dramatically. Especially when combined with a Ninja using Shadewalker/Smoke Screen. The advantages to using PLD over DRK are A) Simple gameplay, B) Physical Mitigation, C) Support abilities(Cover/Clemency/Stoneskin/Silence/STR down), and D) Hallowed Ground.

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...this would be true if your dps wernt ALSO getting upgrades. But they are--and their dps will grow faster than your dps. Enmity is a factor of your damage, so yes--your damage, your enmity will increase, but so will every dps--and you will be in the same boat. The way around this is what?

Bring a ninja. This basically is a requirement for a paladin and works fine in single target encounters--but not so much in aoe. A ninja can pop it on one pack in AS2 savage but wont have it up again till midway throught he fight, and with every back, you are back to staying in shield oath to struggle for aggro and only swapping back to sword at the end of the grouping (eating a gcd, eating up your mana which you were using to spam flash, etc).

On your advantages quickly.
A) yes, paladins are simple--fewer mistakes.
B) Yes--which might not be relevant largely. No physical tank busters reduce this down to auto attacks from your shield. Not enough of an advantage to mean anything--all content has been cleared without one, but AS2 and 3 are most certainly easier without them, and AS1 requires that they use Hallowed Ground, otherwise they blow up terribly. Warrior has better mitigation over time (which most physical damage currently is damage over time, not spike) and has meaningful self heals. Dark Dance (despite complaints) is better mitigation over time than bulwark--its not burst mitigation which is what we classically have wanted, but physical damage isnt the main threat (which is what we are classically trained for?).
C) All tanks have some kind of Stat down--warriors having the best, and drks having a damage down while tanking an auto attacking boss (So relevant in all content but a4, where str down does nothing) and an int down. Cover is largely useless outside turns where it was needed to cheese--which has not come up yet cause busters have been /gasp/ magical. Clemency is slower than a snail and largely made irrelevant (watch AS2 clears as a paladin, or the AS3 stream and tell me how many times you see them casting clemency? You dont even see it in AS1 cause after you take damage (Which is heavy enough to interrupt it even with full fending) that the healers have you topped off again. You are too far away to cast it on the other tank. You cant in AS2 cause you are both generally tanking. You could as an OT in AS3--but you might not meet enrage timer. AS4 remains to be seen.
D) Yep---no dispute; this is the reason you play a paladin now a days.

TLDR: You are absolutely false about how your dps is going to scale. You are going to gain the same amount of raw stats from a weapon or chest upgrade as other classes, but the fact they multiply that effect out better with their mechanics means they are going to put that to better use. Or in other terms.

If you did 700 dps currently and your raid dps did 1000 dps, and we increase your dps attributes by 10% (strength/crit/ss/det) we would expect you would go to 770 (woot) and your raid dps would do 1100 dps. You are not going to 'gain on them' unless your dps are simply not upgrading gear pieces.

Now the issue is WORSE for you if your static is getting dps drops and no tank drops (and even worse since, your str dps classes will gtet first dibs on str accessories for obvious reason).

If I had to argue in favor of DPS for PLD, then I'd rather they get rid of main stat juggling for tanks by swapping their main stat to VIT. It would be a DPS boost overall, enmity wouldn't need to be adjusted every gear update due to better damage scaling, and we could still take a hit when needed.

I'm starting to thinking that this is a troll thread. OP came created a thread, bash a class in several pages then left.

OPs arguments might seem to be relatively shallow but there's a reason why there's been an upsurge in "Paladin sucks now" since Alex Savage world firsts started coming out: The way the current raid is designed seems to effectively nullify the class's strengths and magnify its weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

I'm starting to thinking that this is a troll thread. OP came created a thread, bash a class in several pages then left.

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Who knows, I see these threads pop up every time new jobs or abilities are introduced. Overall, PLD got a big DPS boost to their overly heavy Defensive arsenal. The Jobs in general have yet to have a good chance to be properly adjusted to players playstyles, and a DRK or WAR being capable of 100 or so more DPS than PLD won't make or break the job. Heck it might just open up the possibility of letting PLD get an actual AoE damage ability like turning Flash to Banish while in SWO, or they might just scale DRK and WAR back a bit to be on par. Who knows.

That's because PLD is a tank class. It's not a DPS class. Would I like more DPS for my PLD? Yes. Do I need more DPS for my PLD? Not if the other DPS are doing their jobs properly.

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Originally Posted by Julienne

That's because PLD is a tank class. It's not a DPS class. Would I like more DPS for my PLD? Yes. Do I need more DPS for my PLD? Not if the other DPS are doing their jobs properly.

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This line of argument always makes me wonder if the people saying these things have done any progression raiding while it is relevant. PLD is getting dropped from Savage groups due to poor DPS and the raid design nullifying PLDs primary defensive advantages. Endgame raiding is what the game is balanced around, and thus why people are worried about PLD's state right now.

End game content revolves around making dps checks at this time.
The important mechanics are largely magical. The rest dont really play into a paladins strengths anyways (which is burst physical damage. Warriors are actually just as good on duration physical damage due to better cooldowns (uptime/downtime).
Dark and War can tank in their offensive stance and use their combos pretty freely.
A Paladin with top tier dps even in defensive stance is going to be spamming rage of halone a bit, and if they go to sword oath? LOTS of rage spam.

All three classes can tank. Two work with the meta, one does not. That is kind of the issue. There are plenty of ways to fix them, not all of which involve a massive dps increase, but they are certainly not in a good spot.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

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STR down & a nice block rate are meaningful when you're taking 2-6k damage physical auto-attacks before/during/after those crazy high 3.5-6k damage founts. Those numbers are accurate by the way. DRK can reduce a few founts, but their damage taken is still higher overall than a good PLD. Plasma is a joke for both jobs. They pull ahead due to naturally higher enmity & Dark Mind/Dark Wall out of tank stance to mitigate a few extra founts out of grit, pushing their DPS higher. Dark Dance is decent when you can pop it, but completely wasted if you're losing Reprisal time because it's down.

DRKs int down is wasted in most instances if you have a MNK, STR down is universally useful outside A4. Cover is nice to use on healers to ignore Sniper enmity. Clemency is mostly useless I'll agree, but if you're worth anything a 5k heal immediately following tankbusters is massive. It's also easy to push out in A4 during ball/discoid phases when healing is most stressed. You don't see Clemency used in the videos you mention because they're pushing to beat enrages with i190 weapons, clemency will show more use for the following groups. My healers rarely heal me to full immediately following Plasma when they have to deal with two tanks taking over 10,000 damage each, unless they get a lucky crit.

10 seconds of invincibility is not something to shrug off. The job is not useless just because it's not the absolute best at every aspect of the game. It's designed to be the most defensive tank, which it is. Yes DRK can reduce more magic damage, but it's still nothing compared to a PLD really trying to turtle down. All fights now and in the future are designed to keep this trend.

It doesn't matter that the DPS are seeing increasing damage too. Savage Blade, Circle of Scorn, etc have enmity multipliers. A 300 damage increase is significant when it converts to 900+ enmity generated. That is why you can tank something like Bahamut in Sword Oath effortlessly, but then struggle to hold hate against the same DPS in A1 Savage.

It would be one thing to complain about the job if it was seriously lacking, but complaining about how it performs in world first groups is just dumb to be honest. They're more DPS oriented because they are approaching DPS checks meant for groups with better gear, and they're executing those fights perfectly to pass. QoL for healers and other members to make mistakes will be much more beneficial to many of the following groups, and a PLD will bring that.

I never see 6K hits on my war, their laser attack is magical someone confirms, so delirium helps against that. The buster is only a joke if a paladin pops hallowed ground on the second one, otherwise--not at all a joke.

Int Down is fine--I have no idea why people like to bring this up with a monk. Lets say you have a monk? In A1 you put it on the other add. In A2--doesnt matter. In A3--sure its not awesome?
But Warriors have this with the slashing debuff and ninjas--no one discounts how great it is to have a warrior with the slashing debuff or brings up "well its not that great cause of ninjas". Secondly--Monks are not really in vogue right now, with dragoon/ninja being seen as a more viable melee team.

Hallowed Ground is NOTHING to ignore--but in say, AS1 when you use it to get through a buster where other tanks could just soak through it, and still keep their anti deaths as 'oh shit' buttons, that says something. No one is saying Hallowed isnt useful--its great; but I would not play a class strictly for it.

And yes--everyone knows how enmity works (or should work?) by this point if your in savage. Plenty of spread sheets and the like the explain it, but a Paladin right now has to spam their emnity combo because those same combos do not have very good core damage and have the same multipliers as other tanks (x5 for your enmity finisher, all stances are x2, etc). Add in the fact that in their offense stance, Paladins added potency does not interact with their ability enmity, which is why you see---and you can google pld as1/as2 kill vids for this--- when they got into sword oath they are not spamming royal authority; hell you do not see many royal authorities at all. You see them maintaining goring blade and spamming RoH with the 'sometimes' royal authority because aggro is a huge issue for them.

Cover and Sniper--well if the healer stands close enough to you for this to matter; sure?

Its also dumb to not understand that the same dps checks you are facing are also with the best players in the world. Your static, my static--our dps wont meet those levels. They wont play as good, so you can add on item levels but still see the same issues. This is not a world of echo fail buffs to get people through things.

You don't see 6k damage hits on your WAR because you have Storm's Path. My DRK does not have STR down or Storm's path.

Putting the MNK on the other tank's add doesn't change the damage a DRK is taking from physicals, it's still a significant amount more DPS than a group with a PLD who will naturally take less damage.(also less from Plasma if DRK is using Shadow Wall to increase DPS) INT down being useless in A2 is also not a benefit. A WAR putting up Storm's Eye allows NIN to skip Dancing Edge, resulting in a DPS gain for both jobs in most cases. A DRK using Delirium does nothing because MNKs still want their blunt resistance debuff. MNK vs NIN vs DRG is an entirely different debate.

Hallowed could be the big game changer in A4 Savage. Even in normal mode a PLD can use it to eat a full Discoid and 3 orbs. Whether you would play the job for that ability or not is irrelevant, it's one of many benefits the class brings.

Enmity multipliers are not the same for the tank classes. That is why PLD has so much trouble tanking out of stance right now. As DRK I can easily hold hate until the second adds out of Grit by opening with Dark Arts+Power Slashx2, PLD does not have that luxury. I know because I actually dealt with it while tanking A1 Savage as PLD in Sword Oath.

You're giving those DPS checks way too much credit. I've never had echo to clear Coil turns, I don't plan to sit around and wait for it to clear the rest of Alexander Savage.

Eh--I'm not chaining storms path in AS1. I'm doing most of the fight in deliverance with eye on the boss. I'm not seeing 6K hits.

Just to correct you. I'll be re running it Saturday but the only time im throwing up path is before busters and for a little while after each one until healing is settled down.


For the most part, the damage debuffs arnt super userful in AS2 outside of small windows. Warriors are not tab targetting /storms pathing each target, and frankly paladins arnt either other than the heavy heavy hitters--its far better to burn everything down as quickly as possible. Paladin aoe dps in AS2 is a terrible joke. Warriors and Dark are leagues ahead of them, and everything being dead===the best form of mitigation.

We dont know what AS4 is, so its not fair to speculate. But given A4 had a buster every minute, then i would MUCH rather have a dark and a warrior taunting off eachother and using cds than a paladin who can hallowed -one- of them and otherwise has a 90 and 180 second cd to a dark knights 90/180/60 second cd + 10% debuff and a warriors whenever 20sec, 120, and 90/60 second bursty self heal and.

Enmity multipliers for the most part, are the same for all classes. I have no idea why you say otherwise. You can check spread sheets on this? All of the tank stances are 2x, all of your combos with extra enmity are 3x or 5x based on the part in the combo (rage of halone is 5x, butchers block is 5x, etc). The difference is the potencies are very different, but that is not the multiplier (which is what you brought up). Rage of Halone and an unmodified power swing are both x5x2, but one is a 260 combo and the other is a 300(so about 14% behind). Couple that with a Drk dps advantage in tank stance over a paladin (fof is 10% over time, dark side is 15% always) and there is a difference there. Now...go into offense, and things go out the window for the balance typically. They cant do things like dark arts /power slash and the extra damage from sword oath does not get any sort of enmity treatment, and in pulls like AS2, where a pack dies and you go onto the next pack, FoF being your soul threat/damage increases means it just wont be up vs Darkside/Maim being always available and enhancing that core ability.

So paladin without FoF smacks a group of boss with rage in Sword for...260 potency of aggro (x5).
A dark knight does is for 345 potency with dark side (no dark arts) x5
A warrior in deliverence butchers blocks for 352 potency (maim and deliverance) x5

Dark Knights also have some tricky ninja aggro. Every time you pop dark arts after aggro has been established, your getting the free 50 aggro from having popped a buff according to testing. Kind of nifty--and actually can add up rather well over an entire fight to being worth a few gcds worth of aggro itself.

Using Unmend to recover TP is a DPS gain. You gain 150 potency and 50 TP (not 60, 2.5s = 50 TP) against the alternative of "stand there and wait for the TP tick".

INT Down is fine and allows for you to drop monk from the raid set up.

People bring MNK up because THEIR buff is MANDATORY to THEIR DPS. So a DRK applying INT down doesn't inherently increase the MNK's DPS by dropping Dragon Kick for the sure crit on Bootshine, causing a no synergy or added effect for having both jobs.
As opposed to warrior's slashing debuff actually INCREASING the NIN's DPS by allowing the NIN to drop DE for the far more potent (+80 potency) Aeolean Edge. Assuming the NIN natural rotation is DE > DoTs > AE > Armor Crush when Huton <30s.
Inversely, NIN applying the slashing debuff allows a WAR MT to go SP > BBx2 for maximum mitigation and threat uptime. This however is a raid-wide DPS loss and is not needed. Also not bringing a WAR and substituting it with a NIN for the Slashing Debuff and running a PLD/DRK combo "should" be a viable option. But people seem to ignore it. The "glaring" disadvantage of non-WAR TP issues are automatically solved by Goad in here. GREAT synergy between those classes.

The video I've seen of a PLD tanking As1 in Sword Oath doing a VERY healthy rotation of RoHx1, GBx1, and RAx1 while still pulling ahead of the DPS. The DRG was VERY close second (85% close) but the DRG never even tried Illusive Jump. I believe the video was linked in the other thread that I started. I'm not saying PLD doesn't need an aggro buff btw. I think PLD's having weaker enmity on its RoH combo is "balanced by SE" around the fact that CoS and Shield Swipe have aggro multipliers and are incorporated in their rotation. But with Shield Swipe being a DPS loss and a deharmonizer of their rotation, SE should probably rethink this approach.

While these early DPS checks are met by people that know how to maximize their classes and maximize raid wide DPS by increasing synergy between the classes. Other early groups are not THAT far behind. The math behind the maximum DPS doesn't change and those people do not have some secret ways to do more damage. They just have better execution. Most non-bleeding-edge but "good" players will copy the bleeding-edge players and pull close numbers. Hence people copy their strategies and rotations. The difference between the world first groups and the average static is the flexibility of creating new strategies, not some secret way of doing more DPS. Adding item levels will surely reduce those issues you're talking about.

Link this video with a dps meter. My bet is if they could maintain that rotation off dps, that the dps was terrible.

WAR actually have 3.5x & 5.5x on their Skull & Butchers in addition to Berserk offering a massive DPS boost for their initial enmity combo, they also get to use their enmity skills for damage. The potency difference between DRK & PLD is 260 vs 300, or 271(Shield+FoF+Halone) vs 312(Grit+Darkside+Power) if you want to count buffs. You do not get to reduce it to it's overall DPS gain when discussing initial threat. DRK pulls ahead in enmity by pairing Dark Arts with power Slash for an enhanced enmity modifier, not potency boost. This is why I can safely tank out of grit until Plasma cannon only using Soul Eater combo(no enmity, never power slash) while my PLD struggles in Sword Oath using Savage at least 2 out of every 3 combos. Both tanks are generally fine after Plasma due to additional stance enmity generated & DPS disengaging for adds. Mileage will vary with your DPS of course. This is is where DRKs damage has the most significant impact because damage dealt is effectively doubled by the split.

edited for stances

What I got out of it all is pld is 150-190 dps less than drk, no matter how you slice it that's a crap load. He makes a point and no the extra tank cd's a pld has does not make up for that massive dps loss in the current content where only dps matters.

Do an experiment, run a dungeon with a warrior or drk then run one with a pld, and notice that the run took 2x as long because of no aoe dmg and mediocre single target. Most of the people going against the Op don't even have plds on their accounts.

Then you did not bother reading to figure out why PLD has lower DPS & would see the job buffed in preparation for a nerf when they finally do gear up.

In the future, when these threads rule the forums, one day SE will think, "You know what? The players want a class that can do everything... Let's give them that and watch the subs FLY!"

And thus was born the job, "The Super Yoshi," or known as TSY. That's right. Say it. tes-sai. The class doesn't have a weapon and his weapon is only one... The Look. He uses his eyes to burn enemies to death and when he sneeres, the whole server is stunned for half an hour, unable to do anyhting. When he walks, his feet doesn't touch the ground and when he goes into a dungeon, his party members get kicked automatically and he blazes through the dungeon and kills the boss with The Look, in one hit. He get's instant lvl 60 once he gets out of Sastasha.

TSY will able to go invulnerable each time the player logs in and will stay like that. Nothing can damage him and all his attacks has a potency of 999999999, which has a base damage of 9000. He has only two attacks, and it's called "The Nerf Bat" and "The Buff Blessing." The Nerf Bat will kill any enemies instantly while anyone who got inside the circle will be nerfed to the ground and remains at 1 HP and 1 MP for an hour. The Buff Blessing will give him Super Speed, which he can use to walk through his allies and instantly make copies of TSY, which he can control, making the server full of TSY.

In the end, TSY remains the only class to be played... forever. FFXIV will no longer be playable because the server keeps crashing when a TSY logs in. Subscriptions starts to soar for a reason because everyone likes to play as TSY, because he can be anything and do anything and everything. He is the ultimate class, the one and only job that precedes all jobs.

The Super Yoshi, Producer Incarnate.

Moral of the story: If one class has highest damage, highest defense, highest everything... it'll probably break the game. PLD is a turtle job. He's a bit weak compared to others but he can survive a lot of stuff without a lot of hassle. In other words... You can't get everything you want.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Int Down is fine--I have no idea why people like to bring this up with a monk. Lets say you have a monk? In A1 you put it on the other add. In A2--doesnt matter. In A3--sure its not awesome?
But Warriors have this with the slashing debuff and ninjas--no one discounts how great it is to have a warrior with the slashing debuff or brings up "well its not that great cause of ninjas".

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Because NIN won't use their slashing debuff if they want optimal DPS. MNK will Dragon Kick in their best rotation.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

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Another critic without any end-game experience on PLD either in ARR or HW.

The situation is simple.

In the current content, any minor survivability advantage the PLD has is irrelevant because all three tank classes can actually live through the damage.

So in the end, you only have an imbalance in their offense and utility.

The added utility the PLD brings is also not enough to make for a 200-300 raid DPS loss.

If you actually did the end-game content in ARR, you would understand that WAR and PLD were pretty balanced. Both tanks had a place in raids, both healers had a place in raids, and all DPS (aside from SMN) was fairly equal -- though MNK and BRD were more commonly brought because of their utility.

In HW, 2 tanks are ahead of the third, 2 healers significantly outclass the third, and there are small imbalances within the DPS.

Yea, HW is still pretty new. You have to be a moron to think things are balanced. So, what we're doing is discussing how it is imbalanced. Telling people to shut up does not contribute to anything.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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I'll bite this.

I didn't say anything about shutting up other people.

I only point out that there cannot be one single class that can do everything. So I'm not expecting a huge buff to apply to PLD. Only tweaks to their kits. Unless you want to see static people who main DRK or WAR gets pissed because their places gets replaced by PLD.

Besides, when the ilvl gets raised up, I bet these threads won't appear anymore because then people will complain about some other things...

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Do an experiment, run a dungeon with a warrior or drk then run one with a pld, and notice that the run took 2x as long because of no aoe dmg and mediocre single target.

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so you mean to tell me with a war or dark you can get done a dungeon in 10-15 minutes because it seems to be about 20-30 minutes to get done with my pld

Person A. "Peanut butter is sticky."

Person B. "Yet another person who has never been to Paraguay offering an opinion on Peanut butter."

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Person A. "Peanut butter is sticky."

Person B. "Yet another person who has never been to Paraguay offering an opinion on Peanut butter."

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You mean:
A: Man soccer is easy, that was such an easy goal to score.
B: But you don't even play soccer!
A: I've kicked a ball once and am good at basketball so shut up.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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As a PLD who recently cleared A1 Savage, I can definitely say this is true. In magic-heavy fights PLD loses its defensive advantages over DRK/WAR, which then renders PLD undesirable as it basically becomes an offensively/defensively weaker DRK. Like, right now there is still reason to bring DRKs over PLD in physical-heavy fights due to the extra 100 to 150+ DPS provided, but there is pretty much no reason to bring PLD over DRK in magic-heavy fights.

I say to balance things out they need to close the DPS gap between PLD and DRK (let's say, reduce Shield Oath's damage penalty to 10%), or if they insist on keeping PLD a "turtle", make it so that it still has an edge in defensive capabilities even in magical-heavy fights (let's say, increasing Shield Oath mitigation to 30% or allowing Sheltron to block magic too).