I dont get all the Bard hatred..

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Pretty much.

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While I agree with you that many Bards over exaggerate the changes over the class, there's still merit to changing the core of a job after 2 years in the making. Your class (assuming you're a Monk main) has only gotten love from Square through the updates, and it's also incredibly similar to its 2.0 counterpart. Who knows, maybe because you're on the other side of the fence is the reason you lack sympathy.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

(assuming you're a Monk main)

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Hmm? They nerfed GL application and Monk has been complete shit in dungeons for a long time lol. It was only good for raiding until Elixer field.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Hmm? They nerfed GL application and Monk has been complete shit in dungeons for a long time lol. It was only good for raiding until Elixer field.

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In otherwords, they expanded on your class' shortcomings by giving new abilities to fill it in, while maintaining their core gameplay and concept.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Hmm? They nerfed GL application and Monk has been complete shit in dungeons for a long time lol. It was only good for raiding until Elixer field.

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i don't see the nerf to GL stacks anywhere it looks exactly the same to me... and if you are so bad at using GL pick a different job?
that is pretty much what you are saying to bards who mained it in 2.x and suddenly its dif so you say "you don't like the new stance so why don't you pick a different job?"

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

i don't see the nerf to GL stacks anywhere it looks exactly the same to me... and if you are so bad at using GL pick a different job?

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`
This is what salt looks like boys. :D

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

that is pretty much what you are saying to bards who mained it in 2.x and suddenly its dif so you say "you don't like the new stance so why don't you pick a different job?"

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Except you're overreacting like a drama queen. The playstyle is 95% the same. What the hell were you doing, randomly mashing A and D midfight? For the vast majority of the fight you stand still and do your rotation. There's a minor delay if you need to dodge mechanics and you need to adjust slightly if you need to move for a longer time, possibly turning it off if you're actually good at your class.

The only other adjustment is your magical "flow", meaning delaying your straight shot procs an extra GCD if you cannot respond in time which still doesn't make any difference in most cases because double procs are far from frequent. Annnd bloodletter weaving which is by no means different, it's still based on server DoT ticks meaning you can mash your BL key during the GCD to queue up procs like you did pre-3.0 or just use them one GCD later. Worst case scenario you waste a proc. So what? The only thing this does is lower your damage. If dps is an issue the class needs a tweak, not the mechanics or your nonsense "flow".

Yeah the people who complain about wasting procs might as well be top-end BRD players since being a top-end 2.x BRD was all about minmaxing those small gains it has a 2% chance of actually occurring, you're complaining about a slight DPS loss on something that is only a DPS loss in the 1 in 50 chance that it happens, and EVEN THEN if Empyreal Arrow comes up on your next GCD being able to straighter shot and use EA without clipping your GCD is a pretty healthy gain. And this DPS loss would happen even less frequently than pre-expansion because you're spending a lot more time doing things that aren't heavy shot at this point.
The only thing that feels unruly is that EA clips GCD every time you use it, and this is only because 2 years of 2.x taught people that clipping your gcd is the devil because they've never played BLM or NIN.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

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Multi-dotting is still a thing, esp on most of the alexander encounters.

You also don't get the straighter shot buff until one second after your GCD passes. You either get a double proc and wasting one, or worse you still get the cast time and non-crit on your straight shot which has lower potency and higher TP cost.

Or we could just purposely delay our GCD and you know, slow down our overall gameplay to molasses with a invisible 3.5 GCD.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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SS procs while reapplying SS are annoying but it seems nobody has realized that it's bugged and you literally do not have a GCD if it happens, too. Just try popping any ogcd when that situation occurs and you'll see what I mean, it will clip every time.
It's an annoyance right now but it's minor, at least you get some situational bullshit because it's also bugged where you can move freely for the entire cast, which you can test easily by flipping WM off and IMMEDIATELY hitting any skill, you will have a cast time but it will never interrupt.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Hmm? They nerfed GL application and Monk has been complete shit in dungeons for a long time lol. It was only good for raiding until Elixer field.

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They enhanced your opener, gave you tools to use when an enemy is untargetable, and gave you a better AoE. Your job got a bunch of buffs, so yeah... I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

`
This is what salt looks like boys. :D


Except you're overreacting like a drama queen. The playstyle is 95% the same. What the hell were you doing, randomly mashing A and D midfight? For the vast majority of the fight you stand still and do your rotation. There's a minor delay if you need to dodge mechanics and you need to adjust slightly if you need to move for a longer time, possibly turning it off if you're actually good at your class.

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You know, its ok for you to admit you really dont know anything bout other classes. The more you argue.. the more 'salty' you look :)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Multi-dotting is still a thing, esp on most of the alexander encounters.

You also don't get the straighter shot buff until one second after your GCD passes. You either get a double proc and wasting one, or worse you still get the cast time and non-crit on your straight shot which has lower potency and higher TP cost.

Or we could just purposely delay our GCD and you know, slow down our overall gameplay to molasses with a invisible 3.5 GCD.

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DoT upkeep became easier and cheaper on TP though, which is lovely.

And in regards to the SS procs, you can complain about that. It's something I believe they can change, whether the skill usage procs the application or the damage itself. That's what they did with GL application, pre-3.0 the actual hit of demolish would apply GL, post-3.0 it's applied as the skill goes off which caused or GL to effectively be 2 seconds shorter. Perhaps if you complain enough this would be changed. That's something worth complaining about, Minuet isn't.

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Originally Posted by aabe

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I'm less concerned about the lost GCD (since that's reoccuring no matter what with the cast times), but more on the fact that I'm using two straight shots now to use up the buff. In the end, its lower potency than heavy shot and costs more TP, running down to some uptime problems down the road. You can't clip an oGCD to cancel the heavy shot animation to get the buff before your GCD reset either, it still won't show up until the same time period otherwise.

I don't have a problem with EA clipping GCD (because it's an oGCD with a cast time), but I like the fact that I can cast it in the middle of my GCD cooldown. That is reminiscent of the fast paced combat flow that bard used to have in 2.0 with their oGCDs and auto attacks. You had a sense of cherry tapping with five different hits in a quick burst, compared to a mage that does singular large hits. WM just makes it feel unwieldy with proc management and with the oGCD resets.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

DoT upkeep became easier and cheaper on TP though, which is lovely.

And in regards to the SS procs, you can complain about that. It's something I believe they can change, whether the skill usage procs the application or the damage itself. That's what they did with GL application, pre-3.0 the actual hit of demolish would apply GL, post-3.0 it's applied as the skill goes off which caused or GL to effectively be 2 seconds shorter. Perhaps if you complain enough this would be changed. That's something worth complaining about, Minuet isn't.

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It's caused by WM because it was so haphazardly slapped onto bard. That's where the clunkiness and the fragmented gameflow of bard comes from; It has no consideration with bard's animations or toolkit back in 2.0. That's why you have so many problems with how it clashes the BL reset; It's extremely clunky and you end up delaying either an oGCD or your weaponskill if it occurs during one of your other oGCDs (whether it be bloodletter itself, sidewinder, flame arrow or blunt arrow). MCH never really had this problem with slug shot and their procs because the animation is incredibly short that it works even with a 1 sec GCD (and no one in the right mind would ever hardcast split or clean shot anyway)

Everything else would just be QoL or differentiating the concept of MCH and BRD because honestly after leveling the two, they both play extremely similar to each other under the effects of WM/GB except only one of the two was built from the ground up with it in mind. Either changing the function of River of blood itself or changing how it functions under the effect of WM can go a long way for bard.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

To you and everyone else in this thread crying about the significantly improved bard playstyle i say.......

LESS QQ, MORE PEWPEW

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Yes, the class is significantly improved... until, you know, that PEWPEW starts tripping over itself. But like I said before, anything is perfect when you ignore any flaws.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Still continuing my existence of being nothing more than an ignorant heckler.

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You haven't really paid any attention to what an individual has said and immediately jumped on the "one person said a thing so obviously that's what everyone else was talking about" side of the yard. My issues are purely mechanical faults that I really think need to be resolved. That and maybe making the other new song not useless. They do that, then I'll have no beef.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

You haven't really paid any attention to what an individual has said and immediately jumped on the "one person said a thing so obviously that's what everyone else was talking about" side of the yard.

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lol get over yourself.

It was just SE being lazy in the end and trying to add a mechanic that would make it easier for them to put a leash on the jumping bard, honestly they are horrible at class balancing intitally, eventually when they get enough "feedback" they actually get up and attempt to correct it, how long were some of the classes broken in 2.0 and 2.5 before they saw fixes? either way I hung up my bow like many other people, bard just isn't fun to play anymore, and the fact remains they adjusted us purely to satisfy raid content and nothing more.

For me, I played bard because it was fun. I loved the mobility and was fine with the support role, and thought the lower dps was a fair trade-off. I don't play bard anymore - bard lost the mobility and mostly the need for support, so the fun is gone now. I'm casual, I don't have any expectation of running Alex savage, though I regularly do the normal version on my summoner. For someone like me, I rarely see the need for bard songs in my dungeon and "easy mode" raid runs. So, basically, bards take a dps hit for mobility and support function; however, mobility is mostly gone and the support often not needed. Also, the fun is gone with the total change to gameplay. I just lost interest in the job entirely and couldn't even bring myself to level it.

I suppose if I had a problem with WM (and by extension GB) it's the lock out of abilities if you aren't in the respective mode for them. I understand that mobility has to be sacrificed for higher damage and I'm perfectly ok with that. I just don't like losing access to skills because of it. I would have rather had WM/GB be just a straight 10% increase while keeping auto attacks or something while letting use the skills in either mode. It'd be like telling a Ninja he needs to use Suiton to use Armor Crush and it shares a cooldown with Trick Attack. Not an exact parallel, of course, but you see where I'm getting. Locking out skills is never fun. It just makes it so that players who choose mobility over DPS are punished even further and basically removing any real reason to switch.

Every class has abilities locked out though when not using certain buffs or stances.

Blm has fire 4 and blizz 4 locked out if enochian falls off or isnt in use.

War has most of our job abilities locked behind defiance or deliverance.

DRG has Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust locked behind BoTD form.

Monk Forbidden Charka and Purification etc etc.

Smn Aetherflow and Dreadwrym Trance.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Every class has abilities locked out though when not using certain buffs or stances.

Blm has fire 4 and blizz 4 locked out if enochian falls off or isnt in use.

War has most of our job abilities locked behind defiance or deliverance.

DRG has Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust locked behind BoTD form.

Monk Forbidden Charka and Purification etc etc.

Smn Aetherflow and Dreadwrym Trance.

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none of those stances change how the job plays though, abilities that can be used in both stances don't change while every weaponskill changes for bard with wanderer's minuet

The more people that quit bard because they can't handle the improved playable, the better off everyone is. You can argue to yourselves all you want but since the class is perfectly fine in every aspect of the game there is no reason to change anything.

As it's been said by many here.. All the lost blood letter procs, SS procs, repelling shot action cancels, and flaming arrow placement down time would like to have a word with this so-called " improvement " and "perfectly fine gameplay " :(

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

that we still have the lowest WD (-8 ilvl 210 weapons) ,

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This is one thing I've never really understood - why is their WD lowered when choosing to use their support skills already lowers their damage? Why are bard/mch getting double dinged for support when many other classes have support abilities that don't destroy their personal output.

8 WD is the equivalent of brd/mch's weapon being 35 ilvls behind.... that's huge.

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Originally Posted by Darian

As it's been said by many here.. All the lost blood letter procs, SS procs, repelling shot action cancels, and flaming arrow placement down time would like to have a word with this so-called " improvement " and "perfectly fine gameplay " :(

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Let me let you in on a little secret since you are obviously new to the class. Everything outside of these "so called lost bloodletter procs" are things that have existed since 2.0. Oh and that repelling shot action cancelling is reliant on your latency. I personally very very rarely have it happen, if at all.

You guys need to stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and just play the game. You very well may enjoy it if you bother learning how to play the new better style.

How so? SS has never been a issue when there were no cast times, flame arrow placement was not an issue before because of no cast, repelling has a very similar is to NIN mudra. You yourself even admit the skill depends on latency when it was not even a topic before. I could also mention that rain of death adds evasion down which is kind of ironic since they lowered the amount of acc needed (notice all the mage weapons without acc?). Oh let's not forget that quick knock and wide volley are now the exact same skill.

I'm dealing with cast times but the say Bard is perfectly fine is a bit much. I should be losing DPS from not playing the class correctly NOT because SE wanted to copy/paste a MCH skill without adjusting others properly. :(

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Originally Posted by Shunye

Let me let you in on a little secret since you are obviously new to the class. Everything outside of these "so called lost bloodletter procs" are things that have existed since 2.0. Oh and that repelling shot action cancelling is reliant on your latency. I personally very very rarely have it happen, if at all.

You guys need to stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill and just play the game. You very well may enjoy it if you bother learning how to play the new better style.

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There is no "new" playstyle, it's exactly the same except its cast times that get in the way of using oGCDs and delaying procs. Some of us have learned to play, and some of us still dislike how cumbersome it is. Having it exist on other classes doesn't make it any less annoying, and its more so because it clips even worse than BLM's firestarter (which isn't used as frequently for them nowadays anyway).

It's tolerable for some people and it works for the most part as far as pulling numbers is concerned, but to say it's "perfect" or that it has no problems is a longshot from a gameplay perspective. I'm sure as hell not having a fun time when I'm casting straight shot and see straighter shot scroll down my screen, wasting my TP and potency.

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

none of those stances change how the job plays though, abilities that can be used in both stances don't change while every weaponskill changes for bard with wanderer's minuet

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Uh yes it does... I just said named abiities that can only be used in certain stances or forms that change how the job plays.

While thye may not have a "cast" time they change how the class functions in order to retain high dps.

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Originally Posted by Darian

As it's been said by many here.. All the lost blood letter procs, SS procs, repelling shot action cancels, and flaming arrow placement down time would like to have a word with this so-called " improvement " and "perfectly fine gameplay " :(

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Please tell me about all the loss.

http://www.twitch.tv/rinchannau/v/8728852 (A1 savage: 1035 DPS)

The current priority system favors BL procs over buffs and Empyreal Arrow. If you miss more than a few procs in an encounter you need to refine your priority system and button pressing. Repelling shot doesn't cancel ANYTHING if you press your buttons in a timely manner. If you press buttons very very slowly only then is that chance it will interrupt your next cast. Losing .2s to place a 350 potency Flaming Arrow is a DPS gain. Sure, it would be nice to be able to place it during your cast, but it's basically a non-issue. No different than placing Shadowflare.

Why don't we talk about the upsides of the changes instead? Huge AoE TP savings. In extended encounters with lots of trash the changes to Rain of Death are amazing. Instead of spamming Quick Nock you can dot a bunch of targets and proc Rain of Death between at least 50% of your GCDs at ZERO TP cost. Iron Jaws is an incredible tool for multi dotting when you have two or three targets (A1 and A3 savage, for example). Empyreal Arrow is the only oGCD weaponskill in the game. It feels like a 1.5s GCD in a lot of ways and is refreshing compared to the constantly 2.5s GCDs most jobs work with.

Example of BRD's new AoE system in a 10 minute encounter with minimal Paeon
http://www.twitch.tv/rinchannau/v/8672711 (A2 savage BRD PoV)

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Please tell me about all the loss.

http://www.twitch.tv/rinchannau/v/8728852 (A1 savage: 1035 DPS)

The current priority system favors BL procs over buffs and Empyreal Arrow. If you miss more than a few procs in an encounter you need to refine your priority system and button pressing. Repelling shot doesn't cancel ANYTHING if you press your buttons in a timely manner. If you press buttons very very slowly only then is that chance it will interrupt your next cast. Losing .2s to place a 350 potency Flaming Arrow is a DPS gain. Sure, it would be nice to be able to place it during your cast, but it's basically a non-issue. No different than placing Shadowflare.

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So you prioritize Bloodletter over Empyreal arrow? That's a very interesting notion, as right now I'm doing Emp. > Bloodletter > Heavy shot. I don't disbelieve you either, considering I got a measly 900 on my A1 Savage clear... all I'm asking for is an explanation :s.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

The more people that quit bard because they can't handle the improved playable, the better off everyone is. You can argue to yourselves all you want but since the class is perfectly fine in every aspect of the game there is no reason to change anything.

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I switched because I just didn't enjoy the job as much anymore. I don't mind the loss of mobility, it's the oGCD management that I dislike. If they could somehow consolidate some of them under WM stance, I'd be happy. Ideally they would remove the cast time from Empyreal too since it's oGCD (but realistically that isn't going to happen)

If they could give us a way of firing Bloodletter and Empyreal at the same time that would go a long way. Like maybe if Bloodletter is up when you fire Empyreal, it adds the Bloodletter potency to Empyreal and eats both cooldowns. Leave the cast time in place. If they are worried about overpowered Barrages, have it only apply to the first hit (or flat out not work with barrage)

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

So you prioritize Bloodletter over Empyreal arrow? That's a very interesting notion, as right now I'm doing Emp. > Bloodletter > Heavy shot. I don't disbelieve you either, considering I got a measly 900 on my A1 Savage clear... all I'm asking for is an explanation :s.

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Consider that Bloodletter is generally used in that 1s time spam after your cast. 150 potency per second. Empyreal Arrow is 220 potency in 1.5s. 146.7 potency per second. Using Empyreal Arrow immediately every time it is off cooldown over a Bloodletter proc is a DPS loss.

Before the buff to Wanderer's Minuet Empyreal Arrow was 240 potency. 160 potency per second. Since the WM changes and nerfs to Sidewinder and Empyreal Arrow potency the priority system changed.

yeah monks now have been improved , change form , elixir , purification ect....

smn ? everything that was needed they got it in HW....burst , and aoe dmg

drg? got a boost across the board and new chain , the "stance" is has a cool effect and improves jump dmg! , and the cherry on top ... battle litany !

nin , got agro control skills a new skill to keep huton up , 1 cd to boost dmg , and 1 attack that does lots of dmg with same CD , so nin have now awesome burst and more utility.

what brd got? 1 stance that adds 30% dmg and casting times , 2 attacks , and 1 skill to refresh dots (awesome btw) , the new song is lol.....

after leveling arcanist to 60 (playing both SCH and SMN ) , brd new skills feel like rushed and "because MCH" ...and dont get me started on animations ... while my smn gets cool effects (painflare is awesome , deathflare? (booom!) , trance effect is bahamuth! ...) , same goes for monk/drg the new skills look awesome...

at least we got iron jaws !

http://giant.gfycat.com/SeveralDearestFinnishspitz.gif

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

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Empyreal being an oGCD with cast time flows a lot better with bard's inherent gameplay of being faster paced and I would've loved for bard to be worked around that; it feels more reminiscent of how fast-paced their damage output was in 2.0 compared to the casters. The whole procs with bloodletter is just cumbersome and feels incredibly fragmented because you're going to inevitably end up delaying either your weapon skill or an oGCD. Repelling shot is only feasible if your SkS isn't above a threshold (or you don't have a atsp buff) and only right a hard cast/straighter shot.

While it's still not that big of a dps loss, it's still incredibly frustrating to play around something that they didn't really seem to give a second thought for. Even their AoE, that just screams MCH to me as far as gameplay is concerned; the lack of differentiation between the two jobs under the effects of GB/WM also bothers me.

My only gripe about bard is Warden's Paeon, could be better, loads better.

Warden's Paeon would be better if it cured a status instead of preventing one. It's generally only good if someone made a mistake, and who can predict when that's going to happen?

I personally grew to absolutely love the new bard playstyle. I hated the idea of it when I read the HW changes, I hated it when I got it and swore I'd never use it, and I hated it at level 60 when I had all the abilities, and i said i was changing my main. Then something strange happened: i came to understand it. I learned how to play it (sorry...i hate that phrase with a passion, too, but sometimes it's true). And now I feel like bard is even more fun than it was pre-HW (and more thematic, too...aiming my shot makes me feel more like an archer). Not moving isn't an issue now that i know all the fights and know where to stand. I generally only turn WM off during waukkeon alternate phase.

The only issue i have with it now is that obnoxious hissing noise.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

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I was actually gonna ask the forum is it better to just rotate a single dot on many targets in A2, rather than attempt to double dot and use ironjaws, but I guess this video answered the question xD ty o/

Honestly I HATED Archer, I could not get to 15 fast enough, but WM/GB for Machinist has piqued my interest. Now I kind of want to play one :x

i feel they do enough dps, i am upset that they turned the class on top of its head after 2 years though

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Consider that Bloodletter is generally used in that 1s time spam after your cast. 150 potency per second. Empyreal Arrow is 220 potency in 1.5s. 146.7 potency per second. Using Empyreal Arrow immediately every time it is off cooldown over a Bloodletter proc is a DPS loss.

Before the buff to Wanderer's Minuet Empyreal Arrow was 240 potency. 160 potency per second. Since the WM changes and nerfs to Sidewinder and Empyreal Arrow potency the priority system changed.

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I seriously never thought that deep into it. Thanks! You learn something new everyday :D.

@RinchanNau

Not saying Bard needs to hit DRG numbers.SE seems dead set on Bard not getting close to that.However, IMO WM was poorly implemented and I hope they add QoL changes to improve the overall flow.As I feel if played correctly I should lose 0 BL procs vs. A few.
I 100% agree RoD is in the right direction now that it's on the same timer as BL.However, being a DPS/support hybrid I think evasion down was a poor choice. We bring nothing to increase melee numbers like Foes does for mages. Why?
Wide volley is lots of TP but the same dmg as quick knock too.

I am mainly struggling with its roll atm. It's a hybrid that's great for resource and mages but has no effect on melee.this makes no sense IMO.Then you add the extra penalties for playing those songs.The support side seems weak sadly and shows as groups have started restricting things to 1 Bard or MCH.Even the groups that have run with 2 are treated as a accomplishment now.

I'm pretty happy with bards dps. I'm parsing on an average of 960-970 and my current highest is 1030 on a dummy without pot or foe. That however isn't my problem. Wanders is clunky as fuck. I constantly see my casts bars get interrupted mid to 3/4 cast as I'm standing still by animation lock gimpiness from Wanders. I don't know how many times I've gone from emp arrow into bloodletter into straight shot only for that straight shot to be interrupted right before it goes off.