Enjoy Summoner before it gets nerfed...

Make it so tri disaster can only be applied at melee range that would be fair. That or give me a move that applies both my dots and my slash buff.

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Originally Posted by morerancor

Make it so tri disaster can only be applied at melee range that would be fair. That or give me a move that applies both my dots and my slash buff.

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Also that Death flare can only be used while at 100 HP or less. That or give you an insta-kill button besides your Limit Break because asking a ranged character to be forced to go in melee range is obviously not enough.
Oh and if you could get battle high everytime you get into your spawn area, that'd be good as well.

These damn ranged characters need a lesson.

/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Hahahahahahaha

Between the Eyes says hi. (Fell Cleave waves in the background.)

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Ha ha ha...? Deathflare does not require it's target to be Stunned, Rooted, or Slept like Between The Eyes needs. Machinist cannot put someone to sleep, and both of their stuns are melee range only. So the only reliable way to proc it is Foot Graze, and that root gets removed as soon as someone so much as sneezes on the target (hint: your autoturret can remove the root as well).

Fell Cleave is also melee range and I haven't seen that hit for over 3k against players in PVP yet.

Laugh it up all you want, I'm not the only one who thinks Deathflare is overpowered.

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

Fell Cleave is also melee range and I haven't seen that hit for over 3k against players in PVP yet.

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I've been hit with a 4k Fell Cleave, and I'm a tank. It happens often.

Rarely 5k as well, but there are a lot of bad Warriors in PvP who don't know how to get the most out of Fell Cleaves. Where as Summoner's just destroy everyone with snipe flares.

Pretty sure what I said only applied to summoner. No other class can throw up multiple dots at a time yet they can instantly throw up 3 and start bursting away. They should have to set up dots like the rest of us.

tbh if it got nerfed in pvp unless it was pvp skills that got nerfed its very possible it would be nerfed in pve too, so hell no., i hope it doesn't get nerfed

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Also that Death flare can only be used while at 100 HP or less. That or give you an insta-kill button besides your Limit Break because asking a ranged character to be forced to go in melee range is obviously not enough.
Oh and if you could get battle high everytime you get into your spawn area, that'd be good as well.

These damn ranged characters need a lesson.

/sarcasm

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Oh yeah and don't forget deathflare should disable the sprint and mount commands in case the target doesn't die.

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Originally Posted by morerancor

Pretty sure what I said only applied to summoner. No other class can throw up multiple dots at a time yet they can instantly throw up 3 and start bursting away. They should have to set up dots like the rest of us.

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"The rest of us" don't have a gameplay revolving around placing DoTs to kill stuff.
It's like you don't even understand the core gameplay of that job.

Besides, Tri-disaster is on a 60 second cooldown. It's not like they can throw that everytime they snap their fingers.

But whatever, I don't even know why I try to make a point about SMN with someone who only has Arcanist at 22. You clearly don't understand how it works and why what you're asking is nonsense.
Ninja is (arguably) the second most efficient job to kill a SMN after the Monk... and yet you want it to be even easier for you. Okay.

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Originally Posted by morerancor

Make it so tri disaster can only be applied at melee range that would be fair. That or give me a move that applies both my dots and my slash buff.

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I think the tri-disaster range reduction would be the only thing necessary.

Even melee range seems extreme. Maybe if they just reduce it's casting range to something similar to Plunge's range.

Those tri-disasters do seem to come from no where sometimes.

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Originally Posted by WingsOfAzrael

tbh if it got nerfed in pvp unless it was pvp skills that got nerfed its very possible it would be nerfed in pve too, so hell no., i hope it doesn't get nerfed

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^Yea this is my concern too. It's why the cast range might be the best thing, since it doesn't really hurt PVE since the trial/raid boards are already pretty small. I'm not into 3.0 SMN yet, but from what I recall 2.x you still want to stagger skate to melee range in PVE - ideally - this is stil true?

I checked your profile too. Apparently you don't even pvp, maybe you do but the server ranking only go down to 100 . I don't know the class in and out I just know death flare can hit for 5k. Maybe you could try and getting kills with that. On the rare Occasion i can get to summoner before getting mauled by 10 warriors , i can easily kill them, the problem any good summoner is way in the back of the pack making the most of his 25-30 yalm full potency attacks.

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

Ha ha ha...? Deathflare does not require it's target to be Stunned, Rooted, or Slept like Between The Eyes needs. Machinist cannot put someone to sleep, and both of their stuns are melee range only. So the only reliable way to proc it is Foot Graze, and that root gets removed as soon as someone so much as sneezes on the target (hint: your autoturret can remove the root as well).

Fell Cleave is also melee range and I haven't seen that hit for over 3k against players in PVP yet.

Laugh it up all you want, I'm not the only one who thinks Deathflare is overpowered.

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Firstly... Auto turrets cannot remove root. All pets stop attacking CC'd targets. Secondly, it's really not hard to get off. Just find a target no one is attacking or even if someone is, you can get it off between the attacker's GCDs.

It's also just stupidly powerful. If it crit's its practically a ranged melee LB and, if the target isn't topped off and isn't a tank, stands a pretty good chance of killing them then and there

Deathflare is just really not hard to heal through at all. Regen (or even just medica II) to handle the DoTs, and deathflare can be dealt with with a single cure.

A warrior going to town on someone requires much more effort to heal, even if it is only melee ranged.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

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The overall burst damage across the spectrum is pretty consistent, though a warrior isn't doing to die the moment they stick their neck out for fell cleaves.

You can easily align a BtE right after a foot graze since there's a grace period where it doesn't fall off from damage. Although the issue remains is that you still need to sweet spot the range (which is a less effective attacking range than a summoner's deathflare combo)

A crit BtE is not the damage of a melee Lb. The lattter is upright of 8k, BtE ranges from 4k if it crits (which is similair to some raw deathflares I've eaten). Honestly the "it can be dealt with a single cure" is applicable to any burst rotation, excluding attacks that truely one shot your hp like a melee LB.

first of all, just cause it can hit for 5k doesn't mean it always does. smns need a crit and raging strikes to do that. even if i did it everytime that's something you just heal up like in a pve raid.



i'm sure the people on the receiving end of them feel like they're overpowered. it's flashy and it kills you. yes, they're strong but really they're just finishing blows. you're not getting kills with them if you or your team hasn't done their work beforehand, or if the healer actually heals your target. i can't count how many times i've taken one to the face and just ran off after one heal. i'd say 95% of the time at LEAST that's how it plays out.

some of you guys are complaining about tri-disaster too and it just makes me go "what?" i bane maybe half the time on it, but even then i don't think it's all that great because it's easily healed through and removed via LB.

i can understand why some people are fearful of summoners and think they are too ridiculous. but as i've said before, the truth is you just don't run into too many smns who play it to full capacity. and while i'd like to think i play the job proficiently, i'll be the first to admit that smn's power is curbed off very hard against good healers. you guys know what a smn does when your target purifies your dots? or he heals to full? or when you've run out of charges? i dunno about other smns but i jump around and spam ruin 2. like, a LOT. i'm not even kidding.

smn's great, if played well it's a ball of death. but some of you guys are blowing it up like it's the end of the world. it's not.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

-snip-

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Maybe we're playing different game modes but I see BtE do a lot more than 4k. Crits more like 7kish from what I've seen. 8k if the target is debuffed.

edit: As I think about it, maybe defense has something to do with it. Because melee LBs hit me for 9.5k~10k as well. If they only did 8k, I could survive them if I was topped off; as is, it's a guaranteed kill unless I'm wearing tank gear. Ditto for any casters I've seen it used on.

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Originally Posted by kisada

some of you guys are complaining about tri-disaster too and it just makes me go "what?" i bane maybe half the time on it, but even then i don't think it's all that great because it's easily healed through and removed via LB.

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TBH that's the one complaint that I feel is legitimate. Status effects are easily stacked (not just tri disaster's but all the other job's too), but outside of specials that have long cooldowns, they can only be removed one at a time for a hefty MP cost. They removed the ability to stack regen/medica II so I think it would only be fair if DoTs also couldn't stack.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Maybe we're playing different game modes but I see BtE do a lot more than 4k. Crits more like 7kish from what I've seen. 8k if the target is debuffed.

edit: As I think about it, maybe defense has something to do with it. Because melee LBs hit me for 9.5k~10k as well. If they only did 8k, I could survive them if I was topped off; as is, it's a guaranteed kill unless I'm wearing tank gear. Ditto for any casters I've seen it used on.

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There's a lot of factors around it. Most of my BtEs are usually on melee who overextend because I cannot safely hit the healer or casters who are sitting in the back without overextending myself due to the. Even on a summoner who I catch with their pants down, I dont' see my BtEs critting any higher than 5k even with buffs.

The target using B4B could also be a huge factor because of the 25% amplification.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

TBH that's the one complaint that I feel is legitimate. Status effects are easily stacked (not just tri disaster's but all the other job's too), but outside of specials that have long cooldowns, they can only be removed one at a time for a hefty MP cost. They removed the ability to stack regen/medica II so I think it would only be fair if DoTs also couldn't stack.

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GCDs spent using on Esuna, leeches or detriment are GCDs not used to heal. The problem with DoTs not stacking is that there is a lot of classes that have access to DoTs, two of them being detrimental if you can't get your DoTs at all (as if it wasn't bad enough on FATE bosses). Granted I've never really been killed off by DoTs moreso than the lack of heals that follow escaping a scrape.

Tri-Disaster is purify and you're done. Tri-Disaster goes on CD, the SMN has to find another way to bring your life down low enough for Painflare and/or Deathflare to matter. Of course you may get Fester'd before you can purify it but thats nothing Recuperate can't fix. If you're around a healer? Great! You're gonna live! If you ever die solely by a SMN's "easy bake" combo, then you're definitely overextending a bit much.

DoTs stacking has never been a problem in PvP and I don't think it is a problem at this moment either. Kisada kind of pointed it all out how to deal with DoTs. You either Purify it or have your Healer LB, it'll remove all detrimental effects OR have your Tank LB so you're taking less dmg per tick(not sure on this one, may need some testing/confirmation).

As any DoW class, you have access to Recuperate/Purify that helps against DoTs. If you can cross class Second Wind even better. If you've got a healer nearby? Great! You're gonna live! (Saying it again)

If you're a DoM class, you have access to Sprint/Physick/Purify.

DoTs take time to kill you, if you know when to back off and get yourself healed up, DoTs aren't anything to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Firstly... Auto turrets cannot remove root. All pets stop attacking CC'd targets.

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This is very hard to reproduce and it is a very rare occurrence, but you are wrong and it does happen. It is a freak accident kind of thing that involves server timing, and is similar to what is going on involving weird MP recovery ticks with Black Mage who can cast multiple flares.

http://i.imgur.com/uMIFDut.png

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Originally Posted by aerialrave

This is very hard to reproduce and it is a very rare occurrence, but you are wrong and it does happen. It is a freak accident kind of thing that involves server timing, and is similar to what is going on involving weird MP recovery ticks with Black Mage who can cast multiple flares.

http://i.imgur.com/uMIFDut.png

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You still have a second of grace period where foot graze won't fall off from damage. Even if I was attacking someone that was being focused, I can do footgraze and immediately do BtE right after since they're both oGCDs, and still benefit off the damage bonus.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

if you're in a 1v1 with a summoner, Purify their dots immediately after they blow Tri-Desaster and their fester will be like "has no effect" AND they won't get a stack of Bahamut's whatever .

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This or just pop HG or any other immunity skill so they waste bahamut trace thus makeing them free kill after.

I just did a seal rock as drg and, in a 1vs1 (with purify on cooldown unfortunately), a smn killed me by doing a 10k burst damage in ONE second while running towards me... I don't even know how that's possible lol.

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Originally Posted by DxWings

Tri-Disaster is purify and you're done.

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If the only answer to an attack that does not suffer diminishing returns is Purify there is a problem.

Yeah I don't see what could possibly be wrong with a ranged dd with a very high group nuisance potential, an insane burst that is both quick and easy to setup and a good sustained dps, especially in the "current meta" (very few healers due to lv 60). I mean I'm not asking for a nerf or anything, I'm even happy for you smns (my arcanist is lv 58 >:) ) but please carry your OPness like men. Or something.

PS: by the time you purify that tri-disaster a fester has probably already landed.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

If the only answer to an attack that does not suffer diminishing returns is Purify there is a problem.

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well, go back and read all the replies from the previous pages. it's not the only answer. tri-disaster is extremely easy to counter. smns in general are extremely easy to counter. i regularly have 20 kill games on smn. you know what makes me go away? a single cure.


i think what some of you guys don't realize is that when you leave any ranged dps unchecked and they aren't defended against they go crazy. this has ALWAYS been the case. go back and look at slaughter and it was the same with BLM's, at least until people figured out you need to attack them to stop them. it's not about the job needing nerfs. it's about not giving a job carte blanche to unleash their skills.

and this doesn't mean they need nerfs, it means people actually have to make the right adjustments to stop them. that involves actually getting heals or putting a body on the smn, which are, again, very simple ways to stop one.

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Originally Posted by QCrimson

Yeah I don't see what could possibly be wrong with a ranged dd with a very high group nuisance potential, an insane burst that is both quick and easy to setup and a good sustained dps, especially in the "current meta" (very few healers due to lv 60). I mean I'm not asking for a nerf or anything, I'm even happy for you smns (my arcanist is lv 58 >:) ) but please carry your OPness like men. Or something.

PS: by the time you purify that tri-disaster a fester has probably already landed.

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it lands for 0. fester has an obnoxiously long animation. and if i tri/fester someone, i'm just praying that my target butterfingers their purify. anyone with half-decent reflexes will get their purify off before fester drops.

Yeah right, each time you land your fester before the purify is because your opponent lacks l33t reflexes, the animation of purify or the latency has nothing to do with it.

I get 20 kills regularly on SMN but it's totally balanced tho cuz cure.

no, i land festers on people because my opponents either don't have purify up, they didn't notice they got dotted, or they don't think dots are worthy of using purify.

either way i think you are completely distorting the point i am trying to make. fester has a bad animation, so there is no such thing as a tri-disaster and an instant fester on top of it. the animation provides a lot of leeway to purify before the fester actually does any damage so you will always have time to clear dots if you're on top of it.

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Originally Posted by Layth

I get 20 kills regularly on SMN but it's totally balanced tho cuz cure.

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yep, now you get it

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Originally Posted by kisada

it lands for 0. fester has an obnoxiously long animation. and if i tri/fester someone, i'm just praying that my target butterfingers their purify. anyone with half-decent reflexes will get their purify off before fester drops.

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And then they'll get festered by 8 other summoners, Holmgang, triple Fell Cleaved 3 times, and then to top it all off, just because they can, some random snipe flairs on the already dead body, while Purify is on CD.

Summoners aren't exactly a rarity in PvP nowadays, especially not with the potential they currently have.

And if anything, getting Battle Fever is the easiest thing for them to do, because they can just spread their dots to everything and pick people off easily, thus giving them 20%/40% bonus damage done. To everything. Literally I see more summoners with High/Fever than I see any other class.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

If the only answer to an attack that does not suffer diminishing returns is Purify there is a problem.

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You took out the rest of my post and attacked the only part you wanted to attack. Lol
Healer LB works, Tank LB after seeing someone tri disaster'd works -- stops the whole burst from killing anyone.
Yes it has no diminishing return but the most important part you cut out of my post is that it goes on CD. It has a 1min CD. With Recuperation and second wind, you can make up the HP loss from painflare and deathflare. And don't forget that MNKs and DRGs have access to bloodbath.
A melee can easily shut down a SMN on a 1vs1 match. If that is the case, then there's nothing OP about SMN. If you're that scared to get bursted in 5 moves (Tridisaster-Fester-Energy Drain-Painflare-Deathflare), then take it down first. Burst it before it bursts you.

I agree and disagree. I do feel SMN can be countered like most range jobs. Good brd/mch or melee can shut them down and they should.

However at same time its unreasonable to claim that something isnt OP because you can use tank LB to negate damage. Something in standard rotation should not require Tank/Healer LB or Purify. It be like if Barrage + Emp Arrow did 60% DMG to to a tank, then claim its not OP because the tank could of used his LB and negated most of the damage.

Summoner has great sustain range dps. When they are also given biggest burst in the game there is a fundemental problem their design. Just as their is a fundemental issue with how WAR has great sustain healing and great damage. Its suppose to be a trade off. But when a Kit excels at both, that makes them OP. Regardless of if Tank LB can negate damage or not.

Bard offers a combination of both good sustain and bust but this is balanced by a potency nerf to range. Honestly if Summoners want to apply that to themselves I have no complaints. If SMN could only perform their high burst at close range I be completely ok with that. But I imagine SMN arent. They want to maintain good sustain, and good burst with no penalty or counter balance. Even that being said even point blank Fully buffed Barrage+Emp Arrow is only like 20% DPS on fragile jobs and nothing against tanks. So even vs other burst jobs SMN outclasses the rest, and with no range penalty no less.

Imagine if summoner would need 2 be in melee range 2 do damage. They do not have recouperate that heal 30% max hp like physical damage jobs or second wind that heal like 20% max hp. Monks survive longer with first of earth, dragoons can jump away with elusive, ninja can use shukuchi and escape, BLM can use aetherial manipulation and have strong shields. Summoner need maintain their position like all of the time because they are weakest target around that have least anything defensive.

Eh Wanderer's Minuet makes BRD's range potency nerf a moot mechanic.
And BRD's burst works pretty similar to SMN's.
SMNs can't kill someone with Raging Strikes + Tri disaster + Fester.
BRDs can't kill someone with Raging Strikes + Barrage + Empyreal Arrow.
So that argument about Fully buffed Empyreal Arrow + Barrage is invalid because thats not all of the BRD's burst, thats only an important portion of it.
Just like how I mentioned above a portion of the SMN's burst.
If you were to include all of it, BRD would be OP in the same way SMN is that everyone so claims it to be; yet I don't see anyone complaining about BRD.

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Originally Posted by Liselsia

However at same time its unreasonable to claim that something isnt OP because you can use tank LB to negate damage. Something in standard rotation should not require Tank/Healer LB or Purify. It be like if Barrage + Emp Arrow did 60% DMG to to a tank, then claim its not OP because the tank could of used his LB and negated most of the damage.

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When you are facing the burst of a glass canon job, you need heavy mitigation, healing and/or things like Purify to shut it down. I have no idea why you can think the opposite.
There is no better use for a Tank/Healer LB than to mitigate/heal such heavy burst of damage.

The SMN burst combo is not a "standard rotation". It's a big burst only available every minute which completly shuts down the SMN after doing it (would it be successful or not).

Besides, no, you are completly wrong when you say that SMN have great ranged sustain damage. DoTs are a joke to heal through and Ruin II spam wouldn't even kill a paraplegic slug. Plus, with the lack of stacks, you can't even Bane/Painflare, making your overall damage completly worthless. Also, since it's magical damage, they can't even interrupt healers&casters.


tl;dr: SMN is a glass canon with just a burst every minute. This kind of burst is arguably the major reason why Tank/Healer LBs and heavy cooldowns even exist.

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Originally Posted by kisada

fester has a bad animation

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First of all, no. As far as animations go in this game fester's is pretty quick.

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Originally Posted by kisada

so there is no such thing as a tri-disaster and an instant fester on top of it

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Do you even smn bro ? The dots you apply with TD don't appear instantly. Use purify too soon and you'll remove nothing. Use it at the right time and, well, if the smn doesn't butterfinger his fester then you'll be at risk of getting festerd. And of course I won't talk about the case where you can't use purify immediately because you're in the middle of another animation. Either way, a one min CD that forces people to purify RIGHT AT THE START of the encounter could be seen as broken, idk.

Mmm to be honest I don't know if they will get an eavy nerf or not, becuse yes they has a "simple" kill rotation available any minute, but if they crap it or if your opponent do anything to prevent it, he wouldn't be able to kill you, because after using all the stacks, Dreadwyrm trance and Tridisaster (as said before) their DPS is pretty awful and their defense even worse.

Focalization at beginning of a fight o just one heal will make u survive and after u can ignore him (or kill him) for a minute.
On the other hand I feel that Battle high/Fever SMN are the problem (even if I think that there is no reason to not LB them, but people still don't do it), I'm a SCH so I have my points on mind, but in battle fever I critted 5900 with a Deathflare, and it is also an AoE.

I'm curious to see hot it will evolve, anyway up to now it is not impossible to survive to a SMN, neither so hard, you just have to be prepared to them, as they have to be prepared to use their burst rotation, this is pvp, you need to act different.

Ps. Also if a SMN does Fester on a un-dotted player he won't gain any Dreadwyrm stack, so no Dreadwyrm Trance and Deathflare for him, remember it :D

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Originally Posted by DxWings

Eh Wanderer's Minuet makes BRD's range potency nerf a moot mechanic.
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Just to clarify. Bard and Machinists still have a damage penalty based on range even with WM/GB active. Their effective burst range is shorter than that of a summoner's, and typically is less safer since you have to extend out more. Bards also typically have a bit of windup since they need to prep DoTs for sidewinder, and machinists need to get a cleanshot ready

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Originally Posted by DxWings

You took out the rest of my post and attacked the only part you wanted to attack. Lol
Healer LB works, Tank LB after seeing someone tri disaster'd works -- stops the whole burst from killing anyone.

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This can easily be applied to any burst, ever. And we're talking about using an LB to counter something that's effectively on a 1 minute cooldown (unless you're saving someone with BH, which is totally justified)

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Originally Posted by Fyce

When you are facing the burst of a glass canon job, you need heavy mitigation, healing and/or things like Purify to shut it down. I have no idea why you can think the opposite.
There is no better use for a Tank/Healer LB than to mitigate/heal such heavy burst of damage.

The SMN burst combo is not a "standard rotation". It's a big burst only available every minute which completly shuts down the SMN after doing it (would it be successful or not).

Besides, no, you are completly wrong when you say that SMN have great ranged sustain damage. DoTs are a joke to heal through and Ruin II spam wouldn't even kill a paraplegic slug. Plus, with the lack of stacks, you can't even Bane/Painflare, making your overall damage completly worthless. Also, since it's magical damage, they can't even interrupt healers&casters.


tl;dr: SMN is a glass canon with just a burst every minute. This kind of burst is arguably the major reason why Tank/Healer LBs and heavy cooldowns even exist.

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i think this post should explain everything really. i'll add on: SMN actually does have great ranged sustain damage, but only in PVE. in PVP it's far different because a single cure to max HP, a shield cure, a medica 2, a regen + cure 1, etc. etc.. stops that sustained damage in its tracks. and in a PVP environment, countering damage is the first thing a healer will do.

you guys need to understand that just because a SMN puts up big numbers doesn't mean that they are always impact numbers. if i wanted to i could go out and hit 600k in damage but i'd come away with 0 kills, because getting dot damage to actually make an impact depends on your context. if i'm up against a great healer, i might as well just go find something else to do. i can add pressure to his group but LB or medica 2 or succor prevents all that. you can look at the job on paper all you like but until you put it into the actual context/environment and see how it plays, it's really not the same. good players will make accurate choices which counter your moves. that is what pvp is all about.

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Originally Posted by Liselsia

I agree and disagree. I do feel SMN can be countered like most range jobs. Good brd/mch or melee can shut them down and they should.

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Can't shut down all instant cast as BRD/MCH. Silence won't work because their burst comes from Abilities.