Ninja: Heaven-Sword (And Beyond)

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

Any 3m parses laying around? I'm only seeing 3:20 parses on youtube except for one that has the hive weapon, but i'm looking for one that has a Doman weapon.

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Sorry bro dont think anyone did on vid with 180 weapon. Alot of reason is the 180 weapon doesnt matter when you can get a 190 weapon. Once ppl start getting Esoteric/A4 weapons Hive weapon want matter either.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Oh God, the Ninja Esoteric chest is terrible. I seriously think my i180 is a better return on damage dealt. The gloves, too.

Why does SE keep stacking Skill Speed, the worst stat in the game, on a class that already burns through TP faster than any melee DPS? :confused:

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Yeah, the TP cost increase that came with the Poison tweaks isn't looking like much of a great idea if they were going to tweak SS to be better later on down the road in 3.0, then stack it on every piece of gear.

Makes you wonder if they're implementing balance practices from Riot. New shiny comes out, super strong, then gets nerfed little by little until it needs to be buffed again. :p

yea I wish the esoteric chest was better. It looks so damn good though D:

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

yea I wish the esoteric chest was better. It looks so damn good though D:

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It makes me sad that it looks so amazing yet I'll have to avoid buying it for a very long time due to how utterly terrible it is.

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Originally Posted by Phireblast

Any 3m parses laying around? I'm only seeing 3:20 parses on youtube except for one that has the hive weapon, but i'm looking for one that has a Doman weapon.

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This was a pretty near-perfect run at i177. Does have Hive weap though. Maybe subtract around 30-40 for an i180 estimate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f9Hu4hY6fI

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

It makes me sad that it looks so amazing yet I'll have to avoid buying it for a very long time due to how utterly terrible it is.

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I'm buying it first anyway. >.> I've been waiting for a good NIN-themed body for a long time. The AF/Relic body looked really awkward on females because of the superfluous muscle-patterns (a lot like the Noct Lorica did). But I'm also not raiding yet, so I can delay stat progression slightly for glamour.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I'm buying it first anyway. >.> I've been waiting for a good NIN-themed body for a long time. The AF/Relic body looked really awkward on females because of the superfluous muscle-patterns (a lot like the Noct Lorica did). But I'm also not raiding yet, so I can delay stat progression slightly for glamour.

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I wish I could do the same, but I'm pretty sure my static would be salty at me for buying a piece that's worse than upgraded Law gear simply for looks. XD

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

I wish I could do the same, but I'm pretty sure my static would be salty at me for buying a piece that's worse than upgraded Law gear simply for looks. XD

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Be like "hey...hey....that vitality though"

Man, that Esoteric chest is really garbage. From using the Dancing Mad calculator, buying the weapon over it is an increase in DPS even if you drop all Alex 190 accessories except the ring in order to meet the ACC cap for Savage. I tried building a set using the Eso chest and all the Alex accessories I could buy (which would also meet cap) and it still is worse.

SE, please realize Skill Speed sucks and stop stacking it on our gear.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Man, that Esoteric chest is really garbage. From using the Dancing Mad calculator, buying the weapon over it is an increase in DPS even if you drop all Alex 190 accessories except the ring in order to meet the ACC cap for Savage. I tried building a set using the Eso chest and all the Alex accessories I could buy (which would also meet cap) and it still is worse.

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Please tell me you don't mean this calculator: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/calculat...ut-calculator/

It wasn't even horribly accurate in 2.0. It's even less accurate now.

Yes, the weapon is a better piece, but that's always true for every class. The only exception I've ever seen for that was i90 BRD. If you're complaining that it's trash because it doesn't beat the weapon, then everything is trash, always. Or, y'know, maybe you could just base it on stats compared to the other pieces that aren't the single best upgrade possible under every circumstance. Meanwhile, if you're comparing it to the i190 chest, you have to make up 7 DEX worth in secondary stats. If our 3.05 weights are anything at all similar to the DRG ones, that's not gonna happen. You would need close to a 70 secondary stat difference to make that happen. If you're comparing the i210 pieces, yes the Gordian is better. But if you really think that 15 DEX and 60 SS lose to 69 Crit and 46 Det in HW, you're crazy.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Yes, the weapon is a better piece, but that's always true for every class. The only exception I've ever seen for that was i90 BRD. If you're complaining that it's trash because it doesn't beat the weapon, then everything is trash, always. Or, y'know, maybe you could just base it on stats compared to the other pieces that aren't the single best upgrade possible under every circumstance. Meanwhile, if you're comparing it to the i190 chest, you have to make up 7 DEX worth in secondary stats. If our 3.05 weights are anything at all similar to the DRG ones, that's not gonna happen. You would need close to a 70 secondary stat difference to make that happen. If you're comparing the i210 pieces, yes the Gordian is better. But if you really think that 15 DEX and 60 SS lose to 69 Crit and 46 Det in HW, you're crazy.

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Good to know that it's inaaccurate, thank you for telling me that. But you can chill with the insults (you're crazy, etc.). I've done nothing to you and certainly don't think I've done anything to warrant your kind of aggressive response. If I did, please explain because I certainly didn't mean it.

And I was basing my judgement on the fact that with the gear I have now it seems like the (unupgraded) Eso chest seems to be basically a downgrade at any level compared to the other options available, including never buying it period. The only reason it looks like you would ever want to buy it is if you've exhausted all other options to get the ACC you need and still can't do it. And that's not really good. The Melee Cyclas back in the T5 days was the same, where the Fuma Koromo was actually better. And it had the same stats as the NIN Eso chest...ACC + SS.

Again, if that is incorrect and you have updated data I can look at to prove it, I would welcome it. I'd would actually love to be wrong about this. After all, I like the way the Eso chest looks and would enjoy being able to actually use it.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

About Skill Speed

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Well... while its definitely true that too much Skill Speed can be pretty TP unhealty, the scaling of the stat is a lot different from the model at lvl 50, and NIN does need to reach a certain amount of Skill Speed to get their GCD reduced down to nearly or exactly 2 seconds.

This scaling is yet to be known but at least I do know that at 655 its 2.02 (not saying 655 = 2.02 but that it gives you that much). So when you play with your BiS, you should take into consideration the next things:

1) ACC cap
2) Enough SS to get 2.0X GCDs with Huton
3) As much DET and Crit as you want

The current i180~210 gears have such a different set of second stats that lets you fairly play with them pretty well.
You could go from full 1k or so Skill Speed (which would mean about 1.91 GCDs) to 500 or so, and DET can wind in from the 340 to 500 or more. Of course, lets try not to compromise too much DEX, but unlike DET, Skill Speed has a much more tangible value for us to determine "this is as much as I want".

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Good to know that it's inaaccurate, thank you for telling me that.

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I mean, the site itself tells you that.

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Originally Posted by Dancing Mad

This damage calculator is based on data obtained from Monk. It should be accurate for stat ranges of (20 ≤ WD ≤ 46), (300 ≤ STR ≤ 530), and (202 ≤ DTR ≤ 280).

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Anything that isn't a MNK and that's past i90 is outside the scope of the data Valk gathered way back in Beta. The site hasn't even been updated since November 2013. Even when it was still current, the data points were off by anywhere from 1.5 to 5 points, and if you notice, there's no correction listed for NIN because NIN didn't exist yet. Plus it clearly hasn't been updated for the massive damage formula overhaul that happened in 3.0. . .

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

But you can chill with the insults (you're crazy, etc.). I've done nothing to you and certainly don't think I've done anything to warrant your kind of aggressive response. If I did, please explain because I certainly didn't mean it.

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Sorry that came off as insulting.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

And I was basing my judgement on the fact that with the gear I have now it seems like the (unupgraded) Eso chest seems to be basically a downgrade at any level compared to the other options available, including never buying it period. The only reason it looks like you would ever want to buy it is if you've exhausted all other options to get the ACC you need and still can't do it. And that's not really good. The Melee Cyclas back in the T5 days was the same, where the Fuma Koromo was actually better. And it had the same stats as the NIN Eso chest...ACC + SS.

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Several things wrong with this. First, I seriously doubt you have accurate stat weights. From what I've seen, no one does yet, because there's no working damage formula for NIN (the one Dervy has for DRG is not accurate for NIN). And since there's no damage formula, there's also no working sim or even solver. Thus, no stat weights. That said, we can look at the DRG weights that have been posted to get an idea of what ours might look like. Basically, with the stats on gear now, DRG stat weights have all dropped down into the .1xx range to STR's 1.000. The highest they have posted is Crit at .162. While we obviously can't expect the NIN weights to be the same as the DRG weights, I would be very surprised if any of the NIN weights went as high as .200.

For Prototype Gordian to beat Antiquated Iga, you need 74 Det to beat 7 Dex and 60 SS. Or, as a formula:

74D > 7+60S
1D > .094 + .811S

Basically, if Skillspeed is worth even a .100 weight, Determination has to be a .175 weight in order to make up the difference. With the changes to stats in general and to Determination specifically, I doubt it's weighted that high.

Also, the Fuma Koromo is a bad example, since it was Crit/Det versus Acc/SS, while the gear you're talking about now is Acc/Det vs Acc/SS. And even if we dropped all the way down to the Asuran gear that actually is Crit/Det, you're still looking at needing an average rating of .182 split between the Crit and Det to make up 15 Dex and 6 Dex of SS.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Again, if that is incorrect and you have updated data I can look at to prove it, I would welcome it. I'd would actually love to be wrong about this. After all, I like the way the Eso chest looks and would enjoy being able to actually use it.

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Unfortunately, hard data is in short supply because we've all been slacking on a proper NIN formula and simulator. All I can provide is what I provided above, which is what the weights would have to be to make it a downgrade, and why I think the actual weights do not meet those cutoff points.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Information regarding stats

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So I suppose my first upgrade based on this should be the Eso chest instead of the weapon because I was going to have to drop two Alex accessories in order to have the ACC to hit cap (currently at 538 without food). If I buy the Eso chest I can use the better accessories and still have the ACC I need, and it won't be worse than what I'm already wearing from the massive loss of secondary stats which was my fear. Thank you for your information.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

So I suppose my first upgrade based on this should be the Eso chest instead of the weapon because I was going to have to drop two Alex accessories in order to have the ACC to hit cap (currently at 538 without food). If I buy the Eso chest I can use the better accessories and still have the ACC I need, and it won't be worse than what I'm already wearing from the massive loss of secondary stats which was my fear. Thank you for your information.

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Hmm. . .not sure how far along in progression you are, but based on your gear you might be better served dropping down to the Asuran boots instead of dropping 2 accessories. Downgrading from the Prototype boots to the Asuran ones would take you from 538 Acc to 580 without food, which seems to be the SA1 cap. You'd lose 5 Dex straight up, and another ~4.5-6 from the Determination. The Crit gain would outweigh the SS loss, so let's say it's about a 10.5 Dex loss overall? Downgrading two accessories from 190 to 180 is 8 straight Dex, leaving only about 25 secondary stats worth before it becomes a worse option than the boots.

You could also work towards the i190 pants or chest. Pants would be faster if you don't have any tokens already, but chest is the better piece overall (Det instead of SS). Either one gets you close to the SA2 cap even after switching back to i190 boots.

My personal recommendation would be to drop down to i180 boots for accuracy until you can get the i190 chest or pants (preferably chest, though) and save for the weapon. Weapon Damage really is king. Even though with your current gear you're looking at 180 -> 200 for chest and only 190 -> 200 for weapon, I'm still pretty confident saying that the weapon is a bigger upgrade.

What kind of DPS are you guys doing on Faust/A1? And what is your ilvl?

How do you guys do your opener when you have a WAR applying Storm's Eye ASAP?

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

How do you guys do your opener when you have a WAR applying Storm's Eye ASAP?

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Pre-cast Huton and wait 20s to pull --> (Suiton) --> SE --> (Kas) --> GS --> (B4B) --> AE --> (IR) --> SE --> (TA) --> SF --> (Raiton) --> MU --> (Mug/Dream) --> SE --> (Jug) --> GS --> (Duality) --> AE

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

yea I wish the esoteric chest was better. It looks so damn good though D:

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Can I take that to mean that the Alex (normal mode here) chest is better than the Esoteric chest?

I'm not very good at figuring out the best mixture of gear personally (just started doing Alex Normal last night) but I'd like to know what to start buying. Right now I'm still trying to get all my non-Law gears updated, but I'm currently sitting at i173. I made a big noob mistake by getting all my right side gear first...but hey, what's done is done. Otherwise, I've gotten the Law headpiece and upgraded weapon, and grabbed the Esoteric belt just because I could for the left side. So now I'm capped again on Esoteric tomes for the week and trying to figure out what to do next, and what mixture of Esoteric and Alex gears I should have. Should I save up my Esoterics to grab up the weapon first, or go for something else? Any help in this would be greatly appreciated!

EDIT:
So after perusing the forums for a bit this morning, I'm seeing lots of people saying go for the Esoteric weapon first. I can agree with that, being as I'm solely DPS. So if THAT'S, what should I be looking at after gaining the Eso weapon?

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Originally Posted by CodeCass

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When I said I wish it was better I meant in comparison to the Savage chest. I should've made that clearer in my post. As for what to get after, I assume the weakest thing you'll have is the 180 chest since it takes the longest to get in Normal. Upgrading to it after the weapon wouldn't be a bad thing to do. getting other 190 pieces from normal is pretty fast outside of the chest.

Hello

I'm a relatively new mmo player, only maining a NIN atm, parsed myself at 1092 on a 3min dummie without party/food/pot buff, and with a rather terrible mudra lag
i186 with hive weapon
recorded and decided to share it as a sample of how an average laggy non-hardcore raider NIN performs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE6Dn_YI4YA

self improvised on the opener a bit to accomodate lag, as i cant really double weave ogcd without clipping

Huton (20s before pull) - Suiton (on pull) - Spinning Edge [Kassatsu] - Gust Slash [Blood for Blood] - Dancing Edge [Internal Release] - Spinning Edge [ Trick Attack] - Shadow Fang [Fuma Shuriken] - Spinning Edge [Dream within a Dream] - Gust Slash [Duality] - Aeolian Edge [Mug] - Mutilate [Jugulate]

mutilate is delayed so i know for sure i can fit the duality aeolian edge within the trick attack window

any constructive criticism/advice is welcome



also, Ability/Weapon Skill/Spell are actually different terms, using them interchangeably may confuse people.
For example, duality only works on "weapon skills", ie our gcd attacks, Trick attack/Sneak attack on the other hand, is labelled as an "ability".

Dunno how this wound up on page 3. . .Anyway, I'm working on gathering WD/AP/Det info so we can have an accurate damage formula. Which means then someone could work on a model (or adapt yonder sim). Which means we could then finally have accurate weights. >_>

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Don't suppose anyone's working on a sim so we can have 3.05 weights as opposed to 2.55 weights?

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Boy, that post is a little while back.

There's almost no classes in 3.0 atm with updated stat weights, Viridiana. Only working stat weights I've seen are the Dragoon and Machinist (Tentative); others are likely not public yet, in progress, or have not been started. I don't expect having the time to make the stats myself, but I'll definitely update anything here related to them when released. Glad to see you're getting the DMG formula, though.

Anyways, say hello to the “Updating Update” Update! There was nothing major to publish atm.

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Originally Posted by LordTiberiusRex

There's almost no classes in 3.0 atm with updated stat weights, Viridiana.

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I know. I'm mostly posting as a "I wouldn't know where to start with making a model or modifying a sim, but I can definitely get some data going." :p

I need some opinions on gear progression. This is my current gear:

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/7308682/

I'm already pretty low on accuracy, barely reaching the cap for Ravana Ex. My first esoteric purchase will of course be the weapon. I missed out on some Alex normal drops since release because of tight schedule, so the gordian pieces you see are the only ones i own, I also don't have any springs or shafts lying around. I only got A1 loot for this week though so i can still get the drops from A2 - A4 normal.

My question now is, what to buy from esoterics after the weapon and what to eventually get from Alex normal, with Alex savage accuracy caps in mind? We are just about to start savage next tuesday (had to reform static because some ppl left pre HW). Of course pieces like pants and shoes are obvious choices because they have awesome stats, but I'm already very short on accuracy and can't equip the i190 hands/neck/earrings because of that. Would it even make sense to go for the chest next in order to be able to wear all the non-accuracy i190 pieces and thus bump my dex quite a bit, even though the chest itself isn't that good? What are your thoughts on this?

All kind of help is much appreciated!

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

I need some opinions on gear progression. This is my current gear:

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/7308682/

I'm already pretty low on accuracy, barely reaching the cap for Ravana Ex.

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Unless somebody has better acc numbers than these, I don't see anything wrong with your accuracy. Maybe eat some accuracy food if you're really worried about it?

did our stat weigh change any? trying to plan out what eso peices i should buy first ._.;

Oh, they definitely changed. We just don't quite know what to just yet, because the damage formula is devouring my soul. >_>

Man does no one play NIN lol this thread is always getting pushed back.

For folks who bought the weapon this week how are you feeling about it? Also anyone come up with a decent path for eso purchases?

the weapon upgrade was a huge boost to dps imo. i grabbed the weapons and went straight for the dummies food pot party buff and hit 1280 on my first parse 3min 10s no cherry picking. confident we can get up to 1300 dps now.

does anyone know if the i180 crafted would be better than the esoterics chest? id prefer not to get the eso chest if i dont have to.

if you meld it probably, it lets you use the i190 pants and not worry about accuracy too

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Man does no one play NIN lol this thread is always getting pushed back.

For folks who bought the weapon this week how are you feeling about it? Also anyone come up with a decent path for eso purchases?

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I guess most people are very pleased with the job and enjoy it very much. I'm switching from SMN to Ninja because I enjoy the job more. It's only level 49 right now but its slowly getting up there. Any macros that you recommend?

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

I guess most people are very pleased with the job and enjoy it very much. I'm switching from SMN to Ninja because I enjoy the job more. It's only level 49 right now but its slowly getting up there. Any macros that you recommend?

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Yea its mostly most of the vocal people who didn't like how ninja was going probably jumped ship to either drg or smn the others who didn't are still vocal and have another thread they were using and have to constiatnly tell them wait to see how we scale before we call for buff or nerfs to any classes. We could use a couple QoL changes But really isn't too much to complain about right now.

TLDR: doomsayers have left the class mostly and the rest of us are playing as normal and waiting to see what happens.

Now onto your macro question the only macro i can recommend is a goad macro and maybe a shadwalker one

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Originally Posted by softestPAWSintheEAST

the weapon upgrade was a huge boost to dps imo. i grabbed the weapons and went straight for the dummies food pot party buff and hit 1280 on my first parse 3min 10s no cherry picking. confident we can get up to 1300 dps now.

does anyone know if the i180 crafted would be better than the esoterics chest? id prefer not to get the eso chest if i dont have to.

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It's the least useful upgrade anyway, stick with the 190 one and get your BiS pieces first.
The chest is good for look but the stats are utter crap compared to other upgrades.

compared to the op bis i create this 1 i think wor more better, i see in reddit the acc for tanks in A2 are around 610, so if whe need more acc only need take food, what you think?

acc: 612
det: 561
crit: 841
ss: 486
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/R7AB

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Originally Posted by shao32

compared to the op bis i create this 1 i think wor more better, i see in reddit the acc for tanks in A2 are around 610, so if whe need more acc only need take food, what you think?

acc: 612
det: 561
crit: 841
ss: 486
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/R7AB

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http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/R47J
This set will most likely be better if we need that much acc and i'm almost certain Crit>Det now but we'll see so buy your weapon for now and just hold off while others finish the math or come in to confirm which is better for sure for instance we may need more SS then this set to make sure everything lines up.
acc: 612
det: 532
crit: 929
ss: 428

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Originally Posted by softestPAWSintheEAST

the weapon upgrade was a huge boost to dps

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Couldn't Parse myself yesterday cuz I was lagging but, I noticed a raw 10% increase in damage with the Eso weapon in comparison to the i180 weapon.

Really high O_o

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/R47J
This set will most likely be better if we need that much acc and i'm almost certain Crit>Det now but we'll see so buy your weapon for now and just hold off while others finish the math or come in to confirm which is better for sure for instance we may need more SS then this set to make sure everything lines up.
acc: 612
det: 532
crit: 929
ss: 428

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Its floating around that 630 is the front acc cap for a3s so its def gonna be higher for a4s. Thus this set is gonna have to change.

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Its floating around that 630 is the front acc cap for a3s so its def gonna be higher for a4s. Thus this set is gonna have to change.

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True but the question is will it be higher then 630 which you can hit with food or higher since I can only base it on normal Alex there isn't a time where you are forced to hit the front of anything other then adds. which I can't remember if adds in fights can have less acc requirements or not.

there doesn't need to be any need to hit from the front for a4s though; don't think omnidirectional targets have ever had specific accuracy reqs either