So are consoles holding back this game?

of course they are holding back dev

Did watch a Friend playing on PS3 in Azys Lla Zone and trust me, the Perfomance is a joke. It's somewhere between 15-20 FPS when you fly in that Area yet for a PS3 Game, it still looks great.

I can't imagine they still will support the PS3 Version when the next Expansion hits, the Hardware Limit has been reached with these huge Zones.

Let's look at the phrase "holding back this game" in the OP and instead ask, where do you want this game to take you? Do you want to simply relax and have fun, run some dailies and chat with friends, maybe craft or gather a bit? Then by all means no, not a single platform be it PS2 or a brick running Windows 2000 will hold you back. You want to chill out and play a great game, and so does 99% of the rest of the player base. But, what if you're a hardcore raider? You aim for server firsts, you want that FC name on your progression thread and you want your name on your server's leaderboard. That's when a limitation is considered, and that counts out anything—for yourself—which is less than the best.

I speak from personal experience here and while I lead my FC and compete against a number of highly skilled and advanced teams, I also play on the PS4, as do 4 other members of my static. We clear content at release, and we are not held back by our platforms, infact we're at 1% enrage on A3. PC has just as much "****ing tab targeting!" As PS does, just as much "****ing lag!!" As PS does, and just as many "**** I froze!" As PS does. These PC players are on amazing uptodate machines as well, which smoothly run DX11 (infact I sit right next to one of them, and even watched him upgrade his powersupply and videocard recently.) As an advanced PS player, I do not feel held back in this game at all.

If you as a player feel held back in your own gaming experience, even after you've upgraded literally to the absolute top of the technology that this market has available to you, then consider upgrading your gameplay. Have you achieved world first? No? Then attempt it! Still feel held back by someone who's on a console? Make it a PC only static, the rest of us PSers will find our own ways, it's ok.

Try to look at if from a different perspective, they are pushing it forward, the more devices this game plays on the larger the market is to get new players, more players = more funding, more funding = more content. Probably our biggest hold back right now is that the game hasn't been able to make it to Xbox yet, when that happens expect to see our sub numbers increase a substantial amount.

But to put it into perspective I started on PS3 Beta, once the game came out on PS4 I upgraded, when Heavensward came out I upgraded to PC, I've been subbed for nearly two years now and if it wasn't for that initial PS3 support I might have never picked up this game.

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Originally Posted by Draciella

This is a cross platform game, therefore its doing as well as it is, because thats what you get. As far as "experiences" go, combat mechanics aren't weighed on processing power or any other crap. crafting isnt limited by graphical power. gathering isnt restricted by memory. oh no your hair isnt as wavey as you wish, hardly an experience in itself

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You clearly have no idea what limitations the PS3's hardware imposes on the developers.

It is the console's memory that is the limiting factor. This dictates how large zones can be, how many characters can be involved in a single scene or fight, how many UI elements we can have, how complex new game systems can be etc. It might not sound like much but there have been countless discussions with the devs on things to improve that ultimately can't be done due to 'PS3 memory limitations' every single time. Hell it's taken us over two years to get party TP bars displayed because the PS3 didn't have the memory to store that data (they've had to modify things in order to free up memory to allocate to the new TP bars on PS3). It's frustrating because most MMOs expand in various ways over time, with new gameplay systems and new content. FFXIV cannot expand freely, however, as it is ham-stringed by considerations for the PS3's memory limitations all the time.

Yoshi has expressly stated that the only reason they released the game on PS3 was because FFXIV was originally promised a PS3 release. He's well aware that the platform is hindering development and that is why he has said he will drop PS3 support as soon as the PS3 population declines. Heavensward was the only expansion promised to see a PS3 launch. It may be that 4.0 is PS4 and PC only if they decide to go ahead and implement things that the PS3 cannot handle. The platform will be dropped eventually; there is no question of it as YoshiP has already shown a desire to do so.

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

Try to look at if from a different perspective, they are pushing it forward, the more devices this game plays on the larger the market is to get new players, more players = more funding, more funding = more content. Probably our biggest hold back right now is that the game hasn't been able to make it to Xbox yet, when that happens expect to see our sub numbers increase a substantial amount.

But to put it into perspective I started on PS3 Beta, once the game came out on PS4 I upgraded, when Heavensward came out I upgraded to PC, I've been subbed for nearly two years now and if it wasn't for that initial PS3 support I might have never picked up this game.

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The game will never release on XBox as MS insists on using their own isolated servers to host the game without cross-platform play. SE outright refused those conditions and MS isn't budging so we'll not see a release on the platform.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The game will never release on XBox as MS insists on using their own isolated servers to host the game without cross-platform play. SE outright refused those conditions and MS isn't budging so we'll not see a release on the platform.

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Yup, thats what I was getting at, although it has been reported recently that since MS have changed their policy to allow for cross Xbox and PC play it might have a knock on effect with FFXIV.

Consoles are holding back the technical aspects of the game such as graphics and the amount of information that can be carried by the game engine. They're definitely boosting SE's income of spending money for development though, which I'm positive results in more content and better content for everyone.

I have never came across this thread before.
My short answer is yes. PS3 is definitely holding devs back, while PS4 is not.
Next expansion shouldn't support PS3.

Nowadays in my opinion people only buy new PS3 clients as a way to get Twintania mount fast.. :D

Ps3 definitely holds it back
Ps4 not really.
Besides games that can only be run on the best of the best computers are disasters waiting to happen

The PS3 yes i'm pretty sure they've already said it has reached it's limit on what it can handle. I imagine we won't see anything new or innovative added to the game until it's support is dropped completely.

I agree on the old gen consoles holding back the game. This issue is in games like Destiny too, can't do this because the resources of the old gen ps3 etc. Comes up allot in a few dev discussions, we want to to-do this but we dont know how to get it into the game because of the resource limitations of the old gen consoles / pc's/ MACS etc.

If this game were only on PC, I wouldn't subscribe. I just can't navigate using a keyboard. I'm from the controller generation :)

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Originally Posted by Solene

wut

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What does performance, QoL updates (like more markers), and higher graphic fidelity have to do with raiding? What are you even on about?

Consoles hold back the game because they can't be upgraded as hardware get's better over time. In fact, they are already outdated. The gfx card in a PS4 or Xbone is the same one in my pc.... that I bought 2 years ago. That's two generations behind, maybe three.

Regardless, people shouldn't worry about the PS4 for now. It's mainly the PS3 that holds the game back, a console with hardware from 2007! This is 2 years away from being a decade old system! ARR should have never been released on a system that was being replace 2-3 months later.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

If this game were only on PC, I wouldn't subscribe. I just can't navigate using a keyboard. I'm from the controller generation :)

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lol! all good man, sync ps4 controller to pc via bluetooth or usb, or buy xbone controller works to

Lmao imo what content besides raiding will ppl do for a long time that requires super awesome tech to do stuff.
Unless there's going to be swimming involved, i really cant see much content that'll be developed that will require top notch pcs.
Its already gotten to the point where too much stuff in an 8 man raid gets too messy. Just feels like a fate.

But yeah they need to really drop ps3 support by 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Lmao imo what content besides raiding will ppl do for a long time that requires super awesome tech to do stuff.
Unless there's going to be swimming involved, i really cant see much content that'll be developed that will require top notch pcs.
Its already gotten to the point where too much stuff in an 8 man raid gets too messy. Just feels like a fate.

But yeah they need to really drop ps3 support by 4.0.

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The thing is PS3 isn't as bad as everyone makes out, I killed Titan Ex and T5 on mine back in the day (play PC now), and a member of my FC is a PS3 player who is working on A3 Savage at the moment, which is probably further into progression than half the PC players who are complaining about PS3 limitations in this thread. I agree that PS3 support needs to go next expansion, but it's fine for now.

The PS3's limitations aren't so much about framerate and combat as it is about inventory management and the amount of information that the HUD can display at any given time. Yoshi has stated time and time again that things like party TP bars, storage chests and the retainer system are limited by the amount of memory they consume when used, as well as network/server stress. The PS3 is likely behind the memory complaints at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Blaste

No they demand people to be on PC because its more stable during fights with many things happening on the screen, no input lag and easier to communicate via typing if need be, have you ever tried to direct people with text on console? No, cause it doesn't happen. Thats what Ive seen anyway, people who don't communicate in pugs or in some hunts are generally ones on console, and lets not forget how easy it is to use a keyboard for MMO's...or most of them anyway.

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You've clearly never played on a PS4 if you think there's input lag or any issue with a lot happening on screen. And if you're raiding, you're using voice chat. If people are demanding you play on PC, it's because they're ignorant and are trying to raise their low self esteem by trying to act superior for their choice of gaming machine. If you see people not communicating, they might not have a keyboard, but that's their fault.

It's also important to remember that MMOs on consoles are a fairly new thing. The playerbase for MMOs is mostly PC, so a good number of people playing on consoles are new to the genre as well, which means they might not be so accustomed to the whole communication thing in their games. But there's plenty of PS4 players who communicate no problem and raid at a high level (myself included).

My PS4 run this better than many of my PC user friends. Most people who doesn't use chat is cause they don't want to, easy as that cause PS4 can easily read every keyboard.

To the topic, PS4 doesn't have DirectX11 so they didn't implement it or similar graphic effects through other means.

Consoles holding back is a lie and an easy excuse.

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Originally Posted by Greven

My PS4 run this better than many of my PC user friends. Most people who doesn't use chat is cause they don't want to, easy as that cause PS4 can easily read every keyboard.

To the topic, PS4 doesn't have DirectX11 so they didn't implement it or similar graphic effects through other means.

Consoles holding back is a lie and an easy excuse.

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Ps4 is fine. It's Ps3 that is at it's limit. I played a little bit on ps3 and the game looked like it was running at 15 fps in unpopulated areas. Just horrible.

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Originally Posted by Faeon

lol! all good man, sync ps4 controller to pc via bluetooth or usb, or buy xbone controller works to

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I'm actually considering getting a PC this year to have more play options switch between the 2 now and then but since I love the ps4 controller I was worried about finding a controller I could be comfterble with so thanks for sharing.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

I'm actually considering getting a PC this year to have more play options switch between the 2 now and then but since I love the ps4 controller I was worried about finding a controller I could be comfterble with so thanks for sharing.

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I upgraded to PC from PS4 a few months ago, I used to use a PS4 controller on PC before I switched to a G13+Naga, you just need to download the Xbox controller software and a program called inputmapper then you are good to go. You will notice the difference in graphics and draw distance etc when you switch, DX11 gave the game a nice upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Greven

To the topic, PS4 doesn't have DirectX11 so they didn't implement it or similar graphic effects through other means.

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That's incorrect.

DirectX 11 is a graphics library that supports a certain feature set that hardware makers implemented in their GPUs. The GPU core in the PS4 is almost identical to what is in many PCs, though it has fewer compute units within the GPU than high end PCs do. However, it has all the DX11 hardware units required, and the OpenGL libraries that Sony uses provide the same functionality as the DX11 libraries.

DirectX is nothing more than libraries that developers can use to access certain GPU features. If you honestly believe that there is anything in DX11 that cannot be implemented in an alternate library such as Open GL, you need to re-educate yourself.

It's 'correct' to say PS4 doesn't support DirectX 11, because that is a proprietary library owned by Microsoft. However it's also incorrect, because all the functionality accessed through DirectX11 is present in the PS4's GPU and can be used by developers using OpenGL library calls that provide the same functionality as the Microsoft DX11 library.

So, you would be better off saying that PS4 supports DX11 functionality, but does not directly support the Microsoft DirectX 11(TM) library

The only thing holding back this game is bad coding and SE server management.

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Originally Posted by Solene

rant

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Of all the people I've seen posting in this thread, none of them have pegged PS4 as a problem. PS4 runs on par with many of the PC's that people are using to connect to the game. Not everyone has a dedicated gaming rig. The biggest difference between any PC and a PS4 is the ability to easily upgrade a PC because of their modular design.

I don't think anyone can really deny that keeping the game on the PS3 definitely holds the devs back, and yes it holds some players back too. Several members (past and present) of my static used to play on PS3. One of them had to quit the static because his console would completely crap itself at Heavensfall in T9, which severely hampered our progress. We never did figure out exactly why his console handled that particular mechanic so poorly, but thought it may have been because it was one of the earliest PS3's. Two of them said they felt like they were playing an entirely new game when they upgraded. Suddenly, zones load in a reasonable amount of time and you aren't playing at 20-30 FPS. I tried playing the game on a PS3 when I was visiting a friend and... no. Just no.

My static still isn't set for world firsts, but most of us don't much care simply because we enjoy taking things at our own pace. We're making great progress in A1S (we're hitting enrage regularly now; we've got the mechanics down and we just gotta push the deeps). Nobody feels like they're being held back by their hardware.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Seriously, some of the textures have no mip-mapping to them, resulting in aliasing (i.e. "flickering"), e.g. That boss in Alex with the tanks. Look at the ground. The flickering only stops when you zoom in very close; at that point the texture resolution is half or less the sampling frequency so aliasing goes away. Mip-mapping isn't rocket science, it's just downsampling before-hand high res textures. The only cost is memory. I find it hard to believe that they are having memory problems in a tiny boss arena.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

and the OpenGL libraries that Sony uses provide the same functionality as the DX11 libraries.

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Actually the PS4 has it's own graphic API, lower level than the likes of DX and OpenGL.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Seriously, some of the textures have no mip-mapping to them, resulting in aliasing (i.e. "flickering"), e.g. That boss in Alex with the tanks. Look at the ground. The flickering only stops when you zoom in very close; at that point the texture resolution is half or less the sampling frequency so aliasing goes away. Mip-mapping isn't rocket science, it's just downsampling before-hand high res textures. The only cost is memory. I find it hard to believe that they are having memory problems in a tiny boss arena.



Actually the PS4 has it's own graphic API, lower level than the likes of DX and OpenGL.

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OK, What's that element of their toolkit called? I was quoting the OpenGL one since it's generally the most recognized alternative to DirectX, and has been used by Sony with both PS3 and PS4.

The underlying point I was making was that the hardware in the PS4 is just as DX11 capable as the majority of AMD GPus build in the last 3-4 uears and although it doesn't use MS DirectX11 specifically, the functionality is there and supported by the APIs/libraries supplied by Sony.

But, I'd be interested to know what they call the lower level interface you're describing, is it a PS4 variant of Mantle?

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Originally Posted by Miscreant

Yup, thats what I was getting at, although it has been reported recently that since MS have changed their policy to allow for cross Xbox and PC play it might have a knock on effect with FFXIV.

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This will also never happen because the problem isn't cross platform with the PC. Microsoft is fine with that given most PCs run Windows, also a Microsoft product. The problem is the Playstation. Microsoft refuses to be cross platform with anything other than PC. The only reason XI happened was because Microsoft was desperate for a foothold in the Japanese market at the time (it didn't work, by the way).

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

OK, What's that element of their toolkit called? I was quoting the OpenGL one since it's generally the most recognized alternative to DirectX, and has been used by Sony with both PS3 and PS4.

The underlying point I was making was that the hardware in the PS4 is just as DX11 capable as the majority of AMD GPus build in the last 3-4 uears and although it doesn't use MS DirectX11 specifically, the functionality is there and supported by the APIs/libraries supplied by Sony.

But, I'd be interested to know what they call the lower level interface you're describing, is it a PS4 variant of Mantle?

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Did a little more digging. Turns out there are 2 APIs - your choice depending on how lazy you are. :P

GNM and GNMX according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlaySt...ystem_software).

More details from,

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...-playstation-4

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Low-level access and the "wrapper" graphics API

In terms of rendering, there was some interesting news. Norden pointed out one of the principal weaknesses of DirectX 11 and OpenGL - they need to service a vast array of different hardware. The advantage of PlayStation 4 is that it's a fixed hardware platform, meaning that the specifics of the tech can be addressed directly. (It's worth pointing out at this point that the next-gen Xbox has hardware-specific extensions on top of the standard DX11 API.)

"We can significantly enhance performance by bypassing a lot of the artificial DirectX limitations and bottlenecks that are imposed so DirectX can work across a wide range of hardware," he revealed.

The development environment is designed to be flexible enough to get code up and running quickly, but offering the option for the more adventurous developers to get more out of the platform. To that end, PlayStation 4 has two rendering APIs.

"One of them is the absolute low-level API, you're talking directly to the hardware. It's used to draw the static RAM buffers and feed them directly to the GPU," Norden shared. "It's much, much lower level than you're used to with DirectX or OpenGL but it's not quite at the driver level. It's very similar if you've programmed PS3 or PS Vita, very similar to those graphics libraries."

But on top of that Sony is also providing what it terms a "wrapper API" that more closely resembles the standard PC rendering APIs.

The cool thing about the wrapper API is that while its task is to simplify development, Sony actually provides the source code for it so if there's anything that developers don't get on with, they can adapt it themselves to better suit their project.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Did a little more digging. Turns out there are 2 APIs - your choice depending on how lazy you are. :P

GNM and GNMX according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlaySt...ystem_software).

More details from,

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Thanks. It sounds like the lower level APIs are doing similar things to what projects like Mantle attempt to achieve, except since PS4 is a fixed platform, it's much more closely tailored to the hardware in PS4

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

This will also never happen because the problem isn't cross platform with the PC. Microsoft is fine with that given most PCs run Windows, also a Microsoft product. The problem is the Playstation. Microsoft refuses to be cross platform with anything other than PC. The only reason XI happened was because Microsoft was desperate for a foothold in the Japanese market at the time (it didn't work, by the way).

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Yeah I have read about this some time ago and I was kinda facepalming hard..
They aren't probably confident enough about they XBone to let its owners play with PS owners. (I don't own any console so don't take this as a rant from PS owner please xD)

To be honest I always thought that it is crucial for console to have the highest amount of supported good games.

Last gen is indeed holding it back some.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

but it be wrong of me to say cut off the ps3 players so it's all up to SE:p

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IMO they should stop using a nearly 10 year old console then. I mean yeah there's still players on the PS3 but trying to balance (can't think of the damn term, it means to make it so most hardware can run it) it on all 3 platforms especially one that's 9 years old needs to stop.

As a player who uses pc, has a roommate who's on ps3, and our other rl friend is ps4...ive seen the difference first hand between the 3. My computer can out load a ps4 half plugged in. But then again my pc is no push over.
But... I could shut my pc off, turn it back on, reload ffxiv, and run from one zone to another befor my roommates ps3 would load some zones. (this is exaggerated, but you get the picture)

Though we plan to get a ps4 around Christmas for her, we all know ps3 is limiting the game. It did well. But ps4 has now been out for a while. And dropped a bit in price. So hopefully a nice black Friday deal or something like that will pop up

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Thanks. It sounds like the lower level APIs are doing similar things to what projects like Mantle attempt to achieve, except since PS4 is a fixed platform, it's much more closely tailored to the hardware in PS4

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More like Mantle is trying to do what console APIs have done for ages.

Even so I believe the likes of Mantle and DX12 will only be a halfway point between pre-12 DX/OpenGL and console APIs.

PS: Consoles frequently let you go to a very low level. N64 and PS2 let you rewrite the microcode even.

I do agree that PS3 seems to hold back the game somewhat, but I've seen what happens if you put a SSD inside a PS3...the load times man, they become nonexistent almost. They could still do the next expansion with the PS3...but they'd probably make SSDs mandatory for that.

If this was cpu only, that'd be lame. The game is so much more like a game with a ps4 controller. Mouse click and keyboard is weak, I'm glad I have dual analog and shoulder tab targeting, cross bar switches, the works. Being able to chill on the couch with my wireless controller and headset is a lot more fun than sitting at the desk, especially since Mac OS is clunky at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

More like Mantle is trying to do what console APIs have done for ages.

Even so I believe the likes of Mantle and DX12 will only be a halfway point between pre-12 DX/OpenGL and console APIs.

PS: Consoles frequently let you go to a very low level. N64 and PS2 let you rewrite the microcode even.

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I agree with you, I come from a time when developers worked at the binary level developing their games creating drivers for the specific platform that ran on the 'bare metal' so to speak. over time software started to abstract things further and further from the hardware to facilitate easy development, but of course also software bloat and horrible performance. Games have always been closer to the hardware, especially with consoles.

Perhaps I am showing my age, but I remember the old Atari systems using display list interrupts to re-write the data being sent to the screen more or less in flight to mix screen modes and access more colors than the screen memory should have allowed to be displayed. So, yeah, writing code at the hardware level will always be more efficient and produce better effects, so the closer you can get to the hardware the better. I'm pretty sure that similar techniques allowed PS2 to display GT4 in 1080i on the original phat PS2....

Either way, it always makes me cringe when I see people touting the latest DirectX release when low level drivers and APIs on the same hardware will always offer better performance, and as you say console have always worked at a lower level than PC software. Though in recent years, games have become so damned large, that many devs are leanig more on the SDKs and what they provide rather than venturing too close to the low level APIs. This though is why I expect that the PS4 (and XboxOne) will have longer lives and retain more relevance than equivalently specified PCs.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

IMO they should stop using a nearly 10 year old console then. I mean yeah there's still players on the PS3 but trying to balance (can't think of the damn term, it means to make it so most hardware can run it) it on all 3 platforms especially one that's 9 years old needs to stop.

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Hey i agree but i just don't wanna be the one telling ps3 users time to pack up your crap and move on :P everyone knows the ps3 is out of date. But trying to convince ppl to buy a ps4 for 400$ or ok pc for about the same is not so easy. After i got my ps4 and started up ff my mind was blown on how much i was missing and how much lag was gone after that my ps3 took a dirt nap but. Most ppl i konw always say ps4 has no games bla bla so it's hard to get ppl to move on

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Hey i agree but i just don't wanna be the one telling ps3 users time to pack up your crap and move on :P everyone knows the ps3 is out of date. But trying to convince ppl to buy a ps4 for 400$ or ok pc for about the same is not so easy. After i got my ps4 and started up ff my mind was blown on how much i was missing and how much lag was gone after that my ps3 took a dirt nap but. Most ppl i konw always say ps4 has no games bla bla so it's hard to get ppl to move on

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By the time FFXIV 4.0 releases, the PS4 will be less expensive and have a 'slim' model of some kind. By then, SE will have more than met their commitment to the PS3 and I would anticipate it (PS3) being dropped at that time.