Speed Runs Suck

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Originally Posted by Naginata_Nayos

Ps : sorry for bad english >.>

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Wasn't anything bad about it.

The tank does not the set the pace. The group sets the pace. If the tank is pulling at a snails pace, I will pull for him. The healer will heal me. The tank will stand there and look like an idiot.

Just because you play a tank, does not make you the groups leader. Especially when the dps overgear the instance by about 25 item levels. You don't even need a tank.

I suggest you just learn to be better at the game. Speed running does not need to be stressful. Just get better at it. The more you do it, the better you will get.

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Originally Posted by DkDerek

The tank does not the set the pace. The group sets the pace. If the tank is pulling at a snails pace, I will pull for him. The healer will heal me. The tank will stand there and look like an idiot.

Just because you play a tank, does not make you the groups leader. Especially when the dps overgear the instance by about 25 item levels. You don't even need a tank.

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Um...more like you will be the one to get blamed for doing the tank job without being an actual tank and be the idiot here unless you have the other 2 backs you up:p:p..

And Healer will not heal you, unless he knows what you are trying to do and actual want to give you a hand. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Good luck doing that in DF, the tank actually the one who set the pace., either let them do the job and support them (not by doing their job) or die like an idiot :eek:

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Originally Posted by Oreic

While I understand that some people want to take time and travel through things slowly, you simply can't expect this from Duty Finder. If you want slow, gather a few similarly leveled people and run it until you learn the ropes.
Or join an FC that's willing to train you and help you through the steps....

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I would argue that while some people want to rush through things, you simply can't expect this from Duty Finder. If you want fast, gather a few similarly leveled people and run it until you've achieved your goal.
Or join an FC that's willing to rush through things with you.


While not directly related to this thread, I would like to point out that for new players it is extremely difficult to make friends. The community is often hostile towards new players. I, personally, have not found an FC that was particularly helpful, and I only have a few friends IRL that play, but we are not often online at the same time. As a result, in order to go through the main quest line, I am forced to go into DF to run a new dungeon. There are also long spaces between levels doing the main quest line, and when leveling a tank, it is more fun for me to do dungeons than grind quests.
Perhaps if the more experienced players were more open and helpful to new players, then new players would get better faster and then you could all do your speed runs together.

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Originally Posted by DkDerek

The tank does not the set the pace. The group sets the pace. If the tank is pulling at a snails pace, I will pull for him. The healer will heal me. The tank will stand there and look like an idiot.

Just because you play a tank, does not make you the groups leader. Especially when the dps overgear the instance by about 25 item levels. You don't even need a tank.

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As a healer, I would not heal you until after the tank has gained control over the mobs you pulled, if the tank pulls them off you at all. Chances are your ability to keep enmity on multiple mobs and off a healer isn't good, and I wouldn't take that chance in a pug regardless. It's likely that if the tank hasn't pulled mobs from a DPS by the time they need healing, they won't be any faster to pull mobs off of me. Were I to risk healing a DPS, I could pull 2-3 mobs at me, then run the very real risk of my casts getting interrupted while trying to heal as many as three targets, myself, the tank, and you. If the tank decides not to save you, I'll follow suit, the threat to my life that would cause a subsequent wipe to the party isn't worth your impatience. I'm already busy doing my job healing and dps'ing while you try doing the tank's job.

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Originally Posted by DkDerek

I suggest you just learn to be better at the game. Speed running does not need to be stressful. Just get better at it. The more you do it, the better you will get.

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If you ask or try forcing the tank to do speed runs and they're resistant, chances are they have a reason. Maybe they just leveled up and are practicing new abilities, maybe they want to learn what trash mob does what. Those are players that are trying to get better at the game. Having players like you pulling twice as many mobs for them doesn't make them learn faster, it just gives them more to deal with while they try to learn the same things they were trying to practice before. When players have reached a level of comfort and confidence with a dungeon, then they will start pulling more of their own accord.

I love this tread XD,
Realy i am a bad tank i speedrun things, i pop CD and everything, and when healers can't heal ? i pull less, end of the story.
But it don't happen often. I will never speedrun if the healer ask to not do it (he still have to ask)
Speedrun is good to be fast but also training people, the problem for new players is how he is already mastering the JOB, maybe not ready to do a speedrun
New players don't have (new) marked to them, so i can understand the complain if some players still want to do speedrun after you asked to not do it.
If players ask to not speedrun don't do it.
But like i said it's part of training, if you wish to do harder content, it's may be the case, in that case new or not, you should later or soon speedrun as well and learn to do them properly.
I mean there is some content where tank need to know how to have aggro fast on everything, use defense cd properly, dps to do the highest damage as possible, healers healing the good amount of heal needed and manage mana the best as possible.
But yeah respect new players don't force the speedrun if a new player is not already able to do it.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

I explained exactly how tanks aren't doing what needs to be done to hold a small group because they think 1-2 aoe, single target 1 mob only, and done for the whole pack, they don't rotate combo and they don't aoe again. You try to tell them and they say they know their job and still don't. If a tan k is put in a situation to hold multiple mobs they will spam their aoe. Thus easier. Most bad tanks don't pay attention to the multiple agro meters. I shouldn't need to give that detailed of an explanation. .. this is no different then what I said in my last 2 post

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Tanking is not an exact science, and treating it like it is is what causes several of my wipes. There are several factors I take into account each dungeon:

1. The level of the dungeon
2. The level of the healer if not capped
3. The DPS classes present
4. The playstyle of the DPS
5. The outcome of the first pull in the dungeon

The lower the level of the dungeon the fewer hate tools I have and the fewer cooldowns I can use to stay alive, so I pull relatively conservative and increase if I see we're having few issues. Leveling DRK here lately I can say that holding hate in Sastash is a brutal ordeal for some reason no matter how much MP I burn on Unleash or use my one threat combo.

If the healer is lower level than me in a leveling dungeon then I tend to take things easier on them unless I see we're not having issues. In experts I know the minimum ilvl is 145 and I know what kind of heals to expect at that ilvl since SCH is my main. If I see healing problems I pull to where I'm comfortable with the healing I receive.

If I see I have 2 BLM/SMN/BRD then I know I have AoE classes and I have to tank a certain way to stay ahead of them on threat for the group. If I have 2 melee I have to worry more about them each single-target focusing and need to split combos up and stun occasionally. It gets harder even still if I have a mix with a suicidal BLM burning every AoE he has with multiple flares while I have a melee tunneling on one mob because what will usually hold hate for one of those situations may not work on the other.

Tanking and healing are kind of thankless jobs and when I get DPS that assume that the healer and I (or tank and I if I'm healing) are just like their buddies in their FC they raid with and start pulling for themselves then the age-old dungeon rule applies.

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Originally Posted by T2teddy

The rule, since the beginning, has been 'you pull it, you tank it.'

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I had a strange experience last night. Had a levelling roulette which landed me in the Stone Vigil. By the time we had killed the first boss and one extra group of trash, we already had 3 DPS who had dropped out. The other DPS and the healer stayed throughout.

I was choosing to pull all optionals as tank because I was enjoying the easy 2.3k per trash and we were tearing them down quickly and without hiccups/risks. The DPS that stayed said he was happy (I ultimately got 2 commendations) but noted how some people don't like killing optionals because they just want the daily. The most annoying thing about that is that I am completely happy to honour requests for a speedrun but they all left without a hint. Some people.

I get wanting to play MMOs like they're a singleplayer game. Some people like to be alone but still know other are out there. But when you jump into a crew and are that adamant to avoid conversation, that's when you're not worth having around.

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Originally Posted by Cooperal

I had a strange experience last night. Had a levelling roulette which landed me in the Stone Vigil. By the time we had killed the first boss and one extra group of trash, we already had 3 DPS who had dropped out. The other DPS and the healer stayed throughout.
I was choosing to pull all optionals as tank because I was enjoying the easy 2.3k per trash and we were tearing them down quickly and without hiccups/risks. The DPS that stayed said he was happy (I ultimately got 2 commendations) but noted how some people don't like killing optionals because they just want the daily. The most annoying thing about that is that I am completely happy to honour requests for a speedrun but they all left without a hint. Some people.

I get wanting to play MMOs like they're a singleplayer game. Some people like to be alone but still know other are out there. But when you jump into a crew and are that adamant to avoid conversation, that's when you're not worth having around.

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Seconded: good communication is key, and a measure of courtesy towards the group you're in. And it would have been fair to provide an explanation - thus, room for agreement / a proper, happy medium - when instead they just marched out of the instance.

As Unglitteringold (Gen) mentioned previously, it's the kind of attitude that makes it harder to estabilish the bond of trust you need to keep a party going, especially early on, when you're new to the game and the job.

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Originally Posted by DkDerek

Just because you play a tank, does not make you the groups leader. Especially when the dps overgear the instance by about 25 item levels. You don't even need a tank.

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The most experienced person should be running the group, regardless of role. If that happens to be one of the DPS filth, then that's how it's going to be. I've walked first-time tanks through experts by calling pull locations and breakpoints, and it went just as well as if I had left a pro tank to do his thing.

Also, some DPS (read: DRG) can back up a weak/undergeared tank by splitting up incoming damage. It's more healer load to have two targets to monitor, but there's considerably lower risk of everyone dying terribly from the tank blowing up under a trash pull.

Just today I had another experience with someone who wanted a speed run. I was healing and the tank took off without a word, pulled three groups, then died before I got protect off on the party. I apologized in chat for not being ready, and he said, "I thought you'd want a speed run. We're level synced."
Seeing an "S" by my name DOES NOT mean that I'm ready to launch into a speed run every time I step into DF. >.<

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Originally Posted by Delorean

yep

slow down the entire group because you can't hit flash, abyssal drain/unleash or overpower a few times

and then of course, rattle off a few insults and leave your group for criticizing your behavior. On the next episode of Prima Donna Tank, we'll be showing you how to react to having two bards in your 4 man dungeon. Stay tuned!



+1

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Because new tanks aren't outgeared ever.

Nothing like that dps blowing his load right at the start, refusing to use QS, then bitching the tank can't hold hate because he'd barely hit it once before the dps laid into it.

It's DF. You want a guaranteed speed run, go use pf.

This isn't wow. You want 5 minute dungeon runs go play that.

OP, people like big pulls because they are really easy to manage and make the dungeon go much faster. It is not hard to spam an aoe ability and hitting one button for the cd. People overthink tanking too much. It is not hard.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

OP, people like big pulls because they are really easy to manage and make the dungeon go much faster. It is not hard to spam an aoe ability and hitting one button for the cd. People overthink tanking too much. It is not hard.

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Then if it's not hard, YOU do it and YOU do the big pulls.

And when you don't have the DPS to kill it all before the healer's out of MP or the tank runs out of CDs.. because I've seen both of those.

Seriously. Pull your head out and just deal with the fact that not everyone likes speed runs.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Then if it's not hard, YOU do it and YOU do the big pulls.

And when you don't have the DPS to kill it all before the healer's out of MP or the tank runs out of CDs.. because I've seen both of those.

Seriously. Pull your head out and just deal with the fact that not everyone likes speed runs.

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Everything dies so fast mp and cds are not an issue unless the dps are just extraordinarily bad. Even a new tank at minimum ilvl in fractal or neverreap can easily handle 2 groups at a time. That isn't an unreasonable compromise.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

OP, people like big pulls because they are really easy to manage and make the dungeon go much faster. It is not hard to spam an aoe ability and hitting one button for the cd. People overthink tanking too much. It is not hard.

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You are speaking for yourself. As a tank, I do not like speed runs because they put the group at risk, I care more about preventing wipes than being a catalyst for them. Wipes just add more time. And overpower/flash/DRK AOE aggro skill isn't always going to be enough in HUGE pulls, this is where you gotta hope DPS is strong enough to burn them down fast. And is not always the case.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

OP, people like big pulls because they are really easy to manage and make the dungeon go much faster. It is not hard to spam an aoe ability and hitting one button for the cd. People overthink tanking too much. It is not hard.

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Just because a speed run is mechanically simple doesn't mean it's easy. It requires awareness, decision making, and confidence, things that experienced players acquire through exposure to various content. The OP, like plenty of others, is new, and trying to complete content in a safe manner, and getting hated. They haven't had the experience that 2.X players have, speed running level 50 dungeons and learning that confidence and decision making in a decidedly safer environment, thanks to serious overgearing.

New players don't have that luxury. Once they've reached level 50, a large portion of the community suddenly expects that tanks are able to speed run, and that's unfair. Some players are skilled enough to step up to that challenge, but a lot of players simply need time to be comfortable. They're not out to make sure no one else has fun, but demanding a speed run of someone when they aren't comfortable is a surefire way to guarantee they don't have fun, and if your tank or healer is upset or nervous, they're more likely to make mistakes resulting in a wipe. Just have a little patience and courtesy (not specifically aimed at the quoted poster), because there is a person on the other side of that character, and they're trying to enjoy their experience just as much as you are.

what is really tragic is that speed runs appear to be become mandatory.
me (drg) and my tank friend did high level roulette and got AK:hard, one of the other players said "pull all" i said "why" and my tank friend said "no" (they prefer normal pulls) this went quickly into a quite spiteful argument with both calling us "fucking idiots" for not wanting to speed run, sad thing is both other players did everything they could to then slow the run down as much as they could.
I'll admit i stopped rolling on loot as i feared they would vote kick my tank friend.
and we were sill done in 20 minutes.

Another one with me tanking, got a "big pulls" comment after only pulling the first group, to which I replied "sorry I'm not that good a tank" got a random "I believe lol" reply, or something to that effect, honestly i try my best to do quick pulls so there's rarely a gap between trash groups, anyways finished this normal run and came out with 2 comms. :)

The entire argument is invalidated by the gating se has been putting into dungeons for the past year. 2 groups at once is not a speed run, is simply efficient. It is doable in the bare minimum gear without much risk to the group. Unless your healer is a complete idiot or dcs, there is nothing to worry about.

Fractal. On way to first boss, you can ONLY get 2 packs at a time. On way to 2nd, the packs are too far spread to bother. On way to third you can only do one at a time.
Neverreap. On way to first boss, again only 2 packs. On way to 2nd, bees. On way to third, more bees.

Until a dungeon comes out again that is actually not designed to block speed runs, this thread is pointless whine about older content.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

The entire argument is invalidated by the gating se has been putting into dungeons for the past year. 2 groups at once is not a speed run, is simply efficient. It is doable in the bare minimum gear without much risk to the group. Unless your healer is a complete idiot or dcs, there is nothing to worry about.

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Yes, let's forget about respecting someone who doesn't feel secure with speedrunning a dungeon just because it's "efficient". Never forget you are on the Duty Finder, and the sole purpose of Duty Finder isn't giving you tomestones, it's making old players help new players.

they only suck in exp dungeons if the tank doesn't ask the rest of the party if they're ok with it

I think SE buffed the mobs in the HW dungeons, certainly the level 60 ones. I think SE did that to dissuade people from doing speedruns. As a DRK in full law with 15k HP, I get absolutely wrecked if I pull more than 2 groups (and even then 2 groups is too much. Might be more possible to do speedruns in HW dungeons in full Eso sets, but in Law, it's better to just pull one group at a time.

BTW, any tank worth their salt will let the stupid DPS die if they pull mobs trying to hurry the group up. Tanks and to a lesser extent healers, choose the pace, not the DPS. You wanna control the pace, then be a tank/healer.

Personally/fc will instantly drop if tank is going at a snail pace.

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Originally Posted by Unglitteringold

Sure, and what happens when they say, "Yes. Pull big," and then suck? Then they blame the tank for sucking

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If you enjoy tanking, then you'll have to get over this. I'll give you a veteran's tip. The tank gets blamed for EVERYTHING. It's just a common thing. Dps never blame themselves for being too slow (and hardly know if they are too slow because parsers are illegal in game), and healers like to cover their asses. Some are good. Some are bad. Some think they are good but can be better.
If someone complains about your tanking you only have TWO questions to ask yourself. 1. Did I hold aggro? If yes, then you did 90% of your job. Congrats. 2. Did I do everything I could to mitigate the dmg I was receiving (ie. pop appropriate Cd's, buffs etc.)? If yes, then great! You did 100% of your job and the healer and/or dps just suck. If they complain, who cares? You know that you did your part as well as you could.

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Originally Posted by Unglitteringold

I assume that there is something I am doing wrong when approaching the issue.

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It's hard to say if you're doing something wrong without actually seeing you tank, but a few months of tanking means you're likely inexperienced.
Speed runs come with knowledge, gear level and a solid team. Overgeared tanks laugh all day at the idea of doing baby pulls, but no amount of gear will save you if the healer can't keep up, or the dps are too slow and lets the mob outlives your Cd's. Doing a solid speed run requires knowing where all the mobs are, which can be skipped (if any), and how to best bundle them up into neat little packages for the dps. That comes with repetitive runs.
Tanks have a lot of responsibility. There's no easy way around that. No one doing their roulette for tome bonuses, least of all the dps who que for hours just to be there, want to spend all day in a dungeon they know can be cleared in half the time.

It annoys me so much when I used to play WHM and a tank tries to 'speed run' through a dungeon, when both DPS are single target focused DPS.

Happens a lot less now though, well, especially when I'm the tank ;)

I have been in maybe 10-20 dungeons so far. One tank ran through the instance, pulled everything and died because we weren't expecting it.

Asides from that every one has been a normal run. I think once or twice we probably skipped some trash/chests but i've never really felt rushed or that it's going too fast.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

If I'm tanking and the DPS deliberately pulls another group of mobs, they're telling me that they want to do my job. I'll let them until they die. If the healer for some reason heals them, I'll make sure the mobs don't go for the healer, but I won't pull mobs off of someone who deliberately pulled mobs to themselves, just like I wouldn't fight for aggro with an off tank.

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If you do this then you are a bad tank plain and simple, tanks role is to adapt and carry the group if it comes to that. I know its sometimes annoying when whole group makes your job total nightmare, so you should take it as an combat training for end-game because nothing is better training than running dungeons with tards. ^^

PS: I love when caster/healer pop sprit and grabs extra pack from further ahead so i can slack and stand still.

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Originally Posted by Vickii

I have been in maybe 10-20 dungeons so far. One tank ran through the instance, pulled everything and died because we weren't expecting it.

Asides from that every one has been a normal run. I think once or twice we probably skipped some trash/chests but i've never really felt rushed or that it's going too fast.

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There is a such thing as pulling too much for even the tank to handle. Usually..experienced tanks are confident in pulling 3+ rooms, but an unexperienced one..better not. When I'm on BLM, I am always in speed runs for obvious reasons, but I've seen so REALLY HUGE pulls because tank over zealousness, and wipe happens because waaaay too many.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Yes, let's forget about respecting someone who doesn't feel secure with speedrunning a dungeon just because it's "efficient". Never forget you are on the Duty Finder, and the sole purpose of Duty Finder isn't giving you tomestones, it's making old players help new players.

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There's no "sole purpose". There's no demographic more important than the other. DF is there to put people into groups. That's it. What happens after that is the group's business, but SE didn't give some transcendental authority to any specific type of behavior.

Both of you don't know the reasons SE implemented DF despite any reason seemingly being obvious.

When I go on my DPS alt I will often pull something the tank skipped and kite it onto the tank... IF I think my DPS is enough to take it down before everyone's resources get low :P

When I go as a tank, I'll only skip a room if it has no treasure path, or if it seems obvious that people are hitting 'pass' on gear for their class... If the group is eating through stuff like a hot knife in butter, I won't skip things, even things with no loot, because they're making the time/XP ratio worth it.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

If you do this then you are a bad tank plain and simple, tanks role is to adapt and carry the group if it comes to that. I know its sometimes annoying when whole group makes your job total nightmare, so you should take it as an combat training for end-game because nothing is better training than running dungeons with tards. ^^

PS: I love when caster/healer pop sprit and grabs extra pack from further ahead so i can slack and stand still.

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Come on...don't lie..come on be honest..

You and I both know there is no combat training for endgame that requires a dps or healer to pull mobs ahead of the tank and for you as a tank to save them. Those endgame game mobs hit so damn hard the dps and healer will be dead before you even provoke.

We called that a wipe or potential wipe.

Good example of why I don't go blazing through multiple mobs right off the bat but instead gauge dps is the first double pull you can do in sohm al. Pulling that and not having the dps for it is just obnoxious. I usually do a small or moderate pull first to gauge df dps. IThe first set of adds in factual and neverreap will be pulled by themselves (I'll throw the moth in there if it happens to be close) if a dps automatically decides they wanna pull then next set I'll just let them die and respawn. I'm not playing pick the mobs of the dps. It's just not smart to go full speed run of the bat so many things can go wrong. If the group works quickly on that first set and shows the ability to keep up a fast pass needing little down time. it's speed run time. This is purely to allow a balance. I only ask for 1 pull to see where the groups stands as far as experience is concerned. If your to trigger happy to handle that you need take a break from the game and relax a little

I'll admit, I try to speed run content I haven't tried before. It's less about the time crunch for me as it is to testing my warrior skills to the limit, like, "can my cd combos hold up 4 packs in this run?". If we wipe, I'll apologize and tame the beast within. How big a deal is a wipe or two really?, and the ppl that get so #butthurt they #ragequit are the loons I don't really want to run with anyway.

On the note of dps pulls, the only other mmo I've played is ffxi, where dps actually pulled to the party(positioning was important) so that doesn't bother me, I have no prob grabbing adds. What drives me nuts are ppl who get agggro and run around like maniacs; you're messing up my rotation homes chasing you down. Pro tip: gain aggro, run to the tank.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

On the note of dps pulls, the only other mmo I've played is ffxi, where dps actually pulled to the party(positioning was important) so that doesn't bother me, I have no prob grabbing adds. What drives me nuts are ppl who get agggro and run around like maniacs; you're messing up my rotation homes chasing you down. Pro tip: gain aggro, run to the tank.

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Exactly... if a tank holds aggro on 3 mobs and I pull the 4th (happend yesterday in Wanderer's palace with a single Tomberry, which was 5m away) and stack it on the tank.... than it's way more effort to not take it off of me. xD

And what exactly do ppl think to achieve by letting a dps die to an intentional pull on a single mob? Teach him a lessen, waste time? Great... maybe the dps teaches them a lesson in return by not attacking solo-adds which could be taken into his pull.
That's especially great for the two other ppl not involved, two divas who want to teach other lessons.. one letting the dps die (healer will jump in joy to be forced to turn CS off, just 'cause tank want to teach dps a lesson)... the other one not attacking and slowing the run further down.

It just shakes me, if I DoT+Contagion a pull and there's this solo-add which gets ignored by tank and stand like 5m away. Can't count the times when the Druid/healer in Fractal got totally ignored by the tank... usually I aggro it (DoTs+Fester), pull it LoS to the tank and Bane+PF.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Exactly... if a tank holds aggro on 3 mobs and I pull the 4th (happend yesterday in Wanderer's palace with a single Tomberry, which was 5m away) and stack it on the tank.... than it's way more effort to not take it off of me. xD.

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You aren't the type of dps we are talking about though.

That's the "helping the tank out" dps.

We're talking about the type that run off and brings back a big mob with him/her and expect you to pull them off.

I have no qualms with your type. Sometimes I'll be too busy gaining aggro on the first set and trying not to keep moving so it's helpul for a dps to pull them closer.

Speed runs make we want to stop healing. Not the speed runs where everyone is geared and you have amazing dps that can burn the pulls. No. That's fine but not the norm in my experience.

The runs I am talking about are ones where you find yourself (as I just did) almost oom every pull in Neverreap because you are staring at a half law half esoteric geared PLD, who somehow has only 500 more life than the two BLM's in your party, that is trying to speed run and just expects you to keep him alive. Then has the nerve at the end to 'GREAT RUN :D' at me. I'm still trying to figure out how his HP pool was so low when his gear was that high but whatever the case he had no business speed running anything but that sure didn't stop him. The general feel I get in these runs is that the tank doesn't care if I have to burn benediction, tetra, and all my cool downs to keep them on their feet. So long as they don't die its a 'GOOD RUN :D'. Its not a good run. Its stressful, often slower if the dps involved don't have great aoe damage or the tank can't hold aggro, and it encourages your healer to watch you die just for the momentary satisfaction of seeing your health bar at 0. It doesn't prove you are a good tank. It feels like some strange pissing contest that the other three party members are simply drug along for because someone has to be there to hold the fans so that the tank can stand heroically in the aftermath. I tanked before I healed and frankly I never did speed runs on anything but Bray hard and only usually if I had a friend heal for me and knew the dps could take it. As healer I am not amused by the people already trying to speed run the newer dungeons. Especially the ones who can't be smart about it.

*closes rant*