SE: your deadline

Hey guys, let's release an expansion with rushed new classes and skills that are not balanced whatsoever and tell everyone that here at SE we really value and put a lot of effort in equally balancing all the classes.

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Originally Posted by Wishles

Hey guys, let's release an expansion with rushed new classes and skills that are not balanced whatsoever and tell everyone that here at SE we really value and put a lot of effort in equally balancing all the classes.

$$

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This your first MMO? This happens in virtually every MMO. New classes come out, they are either exceedingly powerful and boarderline broken, or useless as hell.

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Originally Posted by Lyaha

If I recall, some of those classes got proper changes very long after 2.0 came out, that's unacceptable and they should have learned from that.

It's SE own fault for not doing proper PTR testing with the classes, they should have a system in place for this. (And I say for the classes, nothing else that might spoil content!)

The OP says he's been asked to leave content for playing a class he took awhile to level, perhaps he has no time to level another class and thus it ruins his enjoyment of the game, which he's paying monthly for I might add.

As for the team listening.. what? Yoshi-P made one statement ON THE JAPANESE FORUM, that's been translated half-arsed or Yoshi-P made a skeptical comment on how the classes 'might' be broken at the moment and how the 'might' fix it in some manner, of course he's not telling us how.

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Yes Wow's PTR the cutting edge PURE goodness . By that i mean the place where they know about bugs and class issues that they conveniently refuse to do anything until after the patch or expansion goes live. Just because you do a ptr it doesn't mean anything if the devs on WoW ignores feedback about bugs and class balance.

Signed A 2004-current WoW player.

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Originally Posted by Wishles

Hey guys, let's release an expansion with rushed new classes and skills that are not balanced whatsoever and tell everyone that here at SE we really value and put a lot of effort in equally balancing all the classes.

$$

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https://cpsobsessed.files.wordpress....nka-ewlzcs.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Yes Wow's PTR the cutting edge PURE goodness . By that i mean the place where they know about bugs and class issues that they conveniently refuse to do anything until after the patch or expansion goes live. Just because you do a ptr it doesn't mean anything if the devs on WoW ignores feedback about bugs and class balance.

Signed A 2004-current WoW player.

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So because Blizzard pisses the bed, every company should do the same?

Only thing I can see from your 2004-current WoW player is that you accept being fucked over, congratulations. Go enjoy your Apexis dailies.

Let's take a look at Wildstar, they listen, they've got a PTR and take feedback from it, it can work.. if you're not taking the Blizzard no fucks given approach.

Ahem!. I think this is deserved!.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/...0oaqvp7gkg.png

PT servers do absolutely no good for class balancing. They are only good for exposing bugs. Balance can only come by gathering data in the native environment and then making adjustments. And when companies nerf classes, all hell breaks loose and you get armaggedon on the forums. Thus, instead of starting a class off potentially Overpowered and being forced to nerf it, it's much better for them to start a class off potentially underpowered and buff it, because then people are happy to get buffs.

It's simply not possible to get balance perfect outside of the native environment with an extremely small data sample of QA testers. The best they can do is get close, preferable undershooting than overshooting.

and then the admiral might ban the practice .....(salutes)

I still don't get the hatred for Minuet and Gauss Barrel. They are not boosting our DPS as much as they should, but thats just a numbers tweak away from being fine.

Breaking Bards? Uhh ... I hated Bard during 2.x, got to 50 only for the achievement/title.
Now though? Minuet makes Bard feel way better to play.
-I dont feel like a BLM, my casts are short enough to allow me most of my mobility by stutter stepping.
-I love seeing big crits (Well, big for a Bard!) while using Minuet.
-I love the hand in the quiver animation for the cast.
-I love that Iron Jaws not only refreshes DoTs back to full but also gives said DoTs Rs/BfB/IR/HE damage bonuses to the refreshed DoTs. Proper timing lets me have a 20% bonus damage to my DoTs for 36 seconds straight, while also trading a WB for HS.
-I love that Empy Arrow is off the global recast, and has a RECAST of 15 seconds (reduced via Skill Speed) rather than a flat cooldown while ALSO being off the global recast.
-Sidewinder looks like its going to be a delicious nuke.
-Wardens looks like its going to be VERY handy once they make it easier to cast.

All these things together have taken BRD to my second favorite Job next to MCH.
Do NOT presume that your opinion on the state of BRDs is the only one that matters.

harass
verb ha·rass \hə-ˈras; ˈher-əs, ˈha-rəs\
: to annoy or bother (someone) in a constant or repeated way
: to make repeated attacks against (an enemy)

Does not apply here.

ultimatum
noun ul·ti·ma·tum \ˌəl-tə-ˈmā-təm, -ˈmä-\
: a final threat : a promise that force or punishment will be used if someone does not do what is wanted

Does not apply here. Refusing to pay for a product you don't like is not a punishment nor is it forcing anyone to do anything.

People saying "ultimatums get you nowhere" must have forgotten that SE is not a person that you negotiate with in a patient manner. It's a company. There's no need to feel symphathy for it and get defensive. The words that correctly describe the situation are "boycot" and "threaten". Threatening to boycot is not immature in the slightest. It's the act of an educated consumer, who refuses to throw money at a company with no timeline of when things are getting fixed. Just google "threaten to boycot" you get thousands of examples of people practicing their consumer rights around the world. Also, there's no need for any more constructive feedback because 1) it exists in multiple threads and 2) it has been seen by Yoshi. It's up to SE to fix it in a timely fashion.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

ultimatum
noun ul·ti·ma·tum \ˌəl-tə-ˈmā-təm, -ˈmä-\
: a final threat : a promise that force or punishment will be used if someone does not do what is wanted

Does not apply here.

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What is a refusal to continue a subscription if not a punishment? You're denying that company money by retracting your business. But not even that, he's literally saying "do this or I'll quit". Such things are still called ultimatums, even if they don't fit your own narrow definitions.

Emotional attachment often summons the most ridiculous white-knighting hence all the attacks on the OP. The OP remained civil and made no personal attacks which is more than what can be said for most of the fan-drones who apparently are so insecure they need to respond to any criticism with laughable amounts of spite and venom over something that doesn't impact them. If anything, SE should be thanking people like the OP; anyone who knows anything about business management knows for every disgruntled customer that voices their objection, there are many times that who just leave without saying word. At least the OP gave a valid reason on why they are considering leaving.

I don't agree with the OPs stance but I understand why they did it. MCH is in a disgraceful state and the fact nothing has been done so far is pretty damn shameful.

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Originally Posted by Lyaha

If I recall, some of those classes got proper changes very long after 2.0 came out, that's unacceptable and they should have learned from that.

It's SE own fault for not doing proper PTR testing with the classes, they should have a system in place for this. (And I say for the classes, nothing else that might spoil content!)

The OP says he's been asked to leave content for playing a class he took awhile to level, perhaps he has no time to level another class and thus it ruins his enjoyment of the game, which he's paying monthly for I might add.

As for the team listening.. what? Yoshi-P made one statement ON THE JAPANESE FORUM, that's been translated half-arsed or Yoshi-P made a skeptical comment on how the classes 'might' be broken at the moment and how the 'might' fix it in some manner, of course he's not telling us how.

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Originally Posted by Lyaha

Second part:

Is it too much to ask for a developer working on the class to say "Yes, I'm making these and these changes, please give me feedback" on every damn forum, not just the Japanese one, because quite honestly, that's racist, we're getting worse treatment while paying the same.

Our English support for the game has been lackluster to just plain horrible, one going as far to spoiling story while he answered a question, for everyone to see in the sidebar.. in the first couple of days that Heavensward got released.

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Agreed on both counts. The whole "They do not want another Ninja incident!" is not a valid defence. If SE refuse to use a public beta which is ideal for sorting issues like this out, the expectation is upon them to make sure their internal testing is up to scratch which it obviously is not.

Likewise, the level of communication to the English speaking player base has also been exceptionally poor. It would take a developer no more than five minutes to have something like "We understand MCH is underperforming and are sorry for the inconvenience. We are looking to make this right ASAP" posted in these forums. Any yet not only has the only balance post been about one aspect of BRD, but that never received an official translation. It is little wonder people are getting upset when they are kept in the dark after paying good money for this expansion/subscription.

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Originally Posted by Amulrei

The OP remained civil and made no personal attacks which is more than what can be said for most of the fan-drones who apparently are so insecure they need to respond to any criticism with laughable amounts of spite and venom over something that doesn't impact them.

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I think that the issue is the way the OP came off. It was not a very well composed complaint. Almost as a spoiled brat. Sure everyone has the right to loge a complaint if they are dissatisfied with a product, but the way to go about it is also important. to come onto a community public forum and come off the way they did, is just asking for trouble. There are other channels the OP could have pursued if they were serious about their concerns.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

What is a refusal to continue a subscription if not a punishment? You're denying that company money by retracting your business. But not even that, he's literally saying "do this or I'll quit". Such things are still called ultimatums, even if they don't fit your own narrow definitions.

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But TC's isn't the least bit threatning. as losing him is like losing a cup of water in an ocean. It takes about a second to forget the whole process existed. as it was instantly replaced.

There is no punishment here, other then to himself.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

I think that the issue is the way the OP came off. It was not a very well composed complaint. Almost as a spoiled brat. Sure everyone has the right to loge a complaint if they are dissatisfied with a product, but the way to go about it is also important. to come onto a community public forum and come off the way they did, is just asking for trouble. There are other channels the OP could have pursued if they were serious about their concerns.

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Frankly, I have to wonder what channels would be more effective. It isn't like any of the English speaking lines of communication seem to be doing much of anything lately.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

I have yet to see a single party where people were insisting that a member should leave the duty because they are a bard or a machinist. We all know of the complaints the players throw around on the forums and reddit, saying that the classes are completely broken. But, they are not broken to an extent that you cannot complete a dungeon, simply because you have a bard or a machinist in the group.

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Just little sheep jumping on the bandwagon, bleating with rage.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

To come onto a community public forum and come off the way they did, is just asking for trouble. There are other channels the OP could have pursued if they were serious about their concerns.

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Actually, by making complaints public there's a chance of a bigger movement that puts more pressure on the company than just a single person. There has been a very recent example in the case of WoW. After a lead developer announced that there was never going to be flying in future areas or the current expansion, players began to post the automated messages they received for unsubbing. There were dozens of threads and hundreds of messages like it. Guess what? The decision has now been reverted and the devs made a public apology. Many players resubbed and posted on the forum to express their gratitude. Even if by some definition this is considered an ultimatum, it's simply false that they have no effect in the case of company-consumer relations.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

But instead of simply giving feedback to SE saying that he's upset with the status of those jobs and isn't interested in playing until they are changed, he instead decided to express himself with an immature ultimatum.

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Isn't this an ultimatum as well then? You just said exactly what the OP said: stating that they are quitting unless things change.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

The squeaky wheel doesn't always get the grease, sometimes it just gets replaced with a new one.

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Nothing wrong with trying though. Going by OP's second post, I think he was well aware of the incoming s**tstorm which occurs whenever someone dares to dislike the choices of SE. You can tell from this amount of emotional white knighting that a lot of people are unnaturally attached to this company, like diehard fans of a band who snap when the band's work is questioned. The only difference is, music fans usually don't give each other crap for not buying the newest record.

If this was an internet provider with bad connection, a fast food place with bad service or a gym with broken air conditioning, no one would bat an eye at the "ultimatum". For some reason gamers are expected to stick with the company through sickness and health, otherwise they are called immature. LOL :D

I love how this turned into white knights attempting to nitpick the definition of ultimatum and threat.

The OP was an ultimatum. That is a fact. You can attempt to claim it isn't until the cows come home, but you're objectively wrong in all possible ways if you try to argue that the OP is not an ultimatum.

"Fix this problem or I quit". That is what the OP says. That is an ultimatum. Ultimatums expressed in the way the OP expressed them are extremely childish.

So the OP isn't happy with the current status of BRD and MCH. Boo hoo. It's a brand new expansion with a lot of new abilities. Balance is something that happens over time once they've had the opportunity to gather native data. QA testers can only accomplish so much. The classes are playable. Are they underpowered? Maybe. Either they are or they became too complex for the average gamer who likes easy DPS. I took DRK to 60 first, so I can't answer that question objectively yet.

In any case, if he's unhappy with the class, he can either choose a different class to play until they change them, or quit. He's obviously going for the latter. But instead of simply giving feedback to SE saying that he's upset with the status of those jobs and isn't interested in playing until they are changed, he instead decided to express himself with an immature ultimatum.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Actually, by making complaints public there's a chance of a bigger movement that puts more pressure on the company than just a single person.

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This is understood. However to post here and not expect backlash from the community about the way you present yourself, is not going to happen. My response was to the way the OP is taking flak for their post and that some could not understand the comments directed at the OP. The squeaky wheel doesn't always get the grease, sometimes it just gets replaced with a new one.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Just little sheep jumping on the bandwagon, bleating with rage.

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I’m sorry, but i have to laugh at your comment. (^_^ ) What is it even supposed to mean? Could you enlighten me with your reasoning behind that statement? (^_~ )

IMO it's the same thing as Dissipate - the cost doesn't justify the benefit, with the difference being that instead of it being 1 of your post 50 skills its almost all of your post 50 skills and even if you use it correctly it still doesn't provide a DPS boost.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

I’m sorry, but i have to laugh at your comment. (^_^ ) What is it even supposed to mean? Could you enlighten me with your reasoning behind that statement? (^_~ )

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Presumably he means that people read in reddit hat MCH and BRD dps is low, and translate that into hating on every BRD or MCH that enters their Duties.

Personally i have never been kicked for being a MCH, though once i was blamed for a Bismark story wipe, lol.

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Originally Posted by Crissy

Not a rant, not a rage-quit, not meant for anyone in the community; only SE.

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So it's a threat that you will rage-quit .. got it.

Oh this is special as a snowflake on a warm summer day.
I read that SE actually responded to this?
Because I am wondering if by responded you mean you actually read where they already know that there are issues and talked at your screen while finding out about their desire to fix it.

Sorry for my rudeness, but... the "i want it, give it to me or I'll leave" made me darkside for all the world to see (another change it or ill leave going on)

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Originally Posted by Crissy

Square Enix, you have a deadline. I have 3 weeks left on my monthly subscription. You have that long to: (a) fix the myriad problems with machinist dps, or (b) fix the problems with bard stances and mobility, or (c) give the community a commitment to do one or the other by a specific, reasonable date. (Waiting until after Alex is not "reasonable".)

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http://www.troll.me/images/squidward...really-bye.jpg

SE responded, on the Japanese forums, and either that response was skeptical or useless or we got a bad translation, which is an issue in itself.

Yes OP quit. Not even being dismissive or a smartass. Just quit. Thats the beauty about subs you can leave when youre not happy, and come back whenever to try out the changes and stay if you like them. They already acknowledged the problem with Bards and are working on it. Your threat isnt going to change that one bit.

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Originally Posted by Lyaha

SE responded, on the Japanese forums, and either that response was skeptical or useless or we got a bad translation, which is an issue in itself.

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Yoshi himself responded. Summed up, he said:
"We know the DPS is low, we're going to fix it"
"We know Minuet and Wardens is difficult to use due to cast timers, we're going to fix it"

I don't know how thats skeptical. Sounds pretty much exactly like " we know of the problem and are working on fixing it".
What more do you want? a running copmmentary on ideas and dictated notes from every meeting and discussion they had on the subject?

ITT: lots of people who would have the opposite opinion if it was their job that was broken/getting kicked/excluded.

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Originally Posted by Crissy

snip

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I dont think giving them a deadline will work, you are only one of many. I do agree that these classes need some fixing, but I reckon SE knows this and as always they are silent. If Warrior and Summoner are a example on how fast SE will fix a class, then I think you might aswell unsubscribe. They will take their time with fixing the class and I think this is better, because both Warrior and Summoner are amazing right now.


EDIT: I read that some players think a PT server would have prevented this and this might be right, but as someone who beta-tested alot of mmorpgs, I can assure you that feedback of fans wont always reach the ears of the developers. WoW used to have (havent played since 2010) alot of class issues and Wildstar was broken as hell, but the developers never did anything.

HIGH JACKING THIS THREAD.


Put a boost to parry while in grit on Dark Knight or I will unsubscribe.

Naw not really I like this game too much.

But really boost parry.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

While this is true, there's something to be said of change for the sake of change, change that adds to current gameplay (SMN, DRG, BLM), and change that turns the design inside out with few positives (BRD).

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Market research indicates that most consumers have no idea what they want until it is literally shoved down their throats. In fact, a good number of consumers would rather take a notably flawed product over a potentially superior one if they are more accustomed to the flawed product. You are totally right, change shouldnt be made because 'YOLO', but every so often you need to take a shot in the dark.

That being said, your statement indicates a level of serendipity on behalf of SE of which, given their history, I seriously doubt they are capable.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I should feel a little insulted to be compared for EA and Activision. My argument comes from having raided in other games and what raid design does to comps and group make ups. If you have a dungeon with one or two bosses that are designed to favor ranged over melee, raids are going to sit melee. If you have a dungeon with two bosses that are designed to punish ranged and favor melee, ranged are going to get sat and raids will stack melee.

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Oh, goodness, no. I would never compare a player with a request to EA or Activision. Wow, that would be harsh. I would just urge you to consider Hanlon's Razor. In short, this is the first expansion in their first successful MMORPG (we don't talk about XI). We can't assume all of their actions are intentional or even well thought out.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I wouldn't expect them to have all 6 new zones accessible for a beta. I'd probably have it set in Sea of Clouds with NPCs that gave level bumps to allow the testing of characters in specific brackets (probably starting at lv50-52, then with a bump to 56 and a bump to 60).

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As I said before, SE is a firm with a history of highly conservative system and narrative design. Many of their tactics concerning story gating havent been acceptable since the 90s. We shouldn't assume, at least not this early in the history of the game, that any of their laughably poor choices are made out of anything but reflex.

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Originally Posted by Crissy

Not a rant, not a rage-quit, not meant for anyone in the community; only SE.
(... then dont post here?)
/snip

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Heres a solution: play another class.

Here's another solution: don't resub and don't come back

Here's MY problem: since expansion came out, the dishes are pilling up next to my sink because I play too much, I want you guys to send YoshiP himself to clean em up or i'll cancel my sub !

(kidding of course)

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Originally Posted by KylePearlsand

Okay, first of all, you are not their boss so it's not up to you to decide their deadlines..

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Technically... we're all just a little bit of their bosses. Without the players, there's no SE. So.. yeah...

But at the same time, true, it's just one sub. But that's not accounting for the people who might feel the same way and are planning to do the exact same thing. There uses to be a saying in business that's really been lost due to wanton greed.

It went something along the lines of,

"For every unsatisfied customer that speaks up. Ten more remain silent."



OP:

Do what you want. If the game isn't fun for you any longer.. then you should probably get away anyway. Ultimatum isn't going to work. Businesses really do not care about customer satisfaction in today's market. They want to pretend like they do, but as long as they're getting money from somewhere then it's really just a big "Fuck off" behind your back. They're essentially going to do just enough so that it doesn't drive EVERYONE off. They'll fix it, but it will as always be on their time tables and it won't be exactly what you were hoping for. It's just the way businesses operate today.

That's not to mention that generally, unless you're in the JP playerbase, SE really doesn't give two squirts of love juice what you think. Couple that with the fact that the forums are usually pretty strong with white knights (which is why FF Fans are generally seen as the absolute most obnoxious players in the rest of the gaming community (it's also why the majority of SE's games have dive bombed in recent years... It's kind of hard to improve your games when all anyone ever does is stick daffodils up your ass and tell you how greate even the biggest pile of shit smells)), so posting it here really isn't going to garner you anything more than scorn and ridicule.

Yoshi-P/SE themselves admitted they launched too much content in the expac/patch.

They bit off more than they could chew.

IMO they should have waited until 3.2 or later to release the new jobs. There's too much going on for them to address every issue - at least with quality fixes - in appropriate time. Had they held off on releasing the new jobs it would have given them time to get a feel for lvl60 gameplay and how the community was responding.

If they pull an Aht Urgan and create cheesey-easy zones and mobs for zerg-fest combat instead of actually balance jobs and tweaking gameplay - I'll be disappointed. That's my concern, that they start cutting corners like they did in FFXI.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ng_japan_expo/

Omg, OP, please, no. That one loss of subscription will make them go bankrupt. Your whole 13euro's a month (Well.. I'm guessing you're a entry, so 10 euro's a month) is so important for the game, that without it, they can't keep the servers online.

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Originally Posted by Crissy

Square Enix, you have a deadline. I have 3 weeks left on my monthly subscription. You have that long to: (a) fix the myriad problems with machinist dps, or (b) fix the problems with bard stances and mobility, or (c) give the community a commitment to do one or the other by a specific, reasonable date. (Waiting until after Alex is not "reasonable".)

Otherwise, I'll withdraw my subscription.

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Originally Posted by Crissy

Never claimed to be their boss, never claimed to give them an ultimatum;

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Actually, this is EXACTLY what you did.

Ultimatum: a final, uncompromising demand or set of terms issued by a party to a dispute, the rejection of which may lead to a severance of relations or to the use of force.